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Now that the freedom of speech came up...

14.12.05, 14:01

I would be interested what do you think about David Irving being arrested?

Ervin

Thebartiski.blogspot.com
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  • usenetposts 14.12.05, 14:48
    I personally don't believe in freedom to express Holocaust Denial. I think
    that's the exception that proves the rule.

    I personally agree with him being arrested and imprisoned.

    --
    - Uncle Davey's Homepage -
    :: Foreigners Living in Poland Forum
  • portulaco 14.12.05, 15:09
    Were is written about holocaust denial? I couldn't find.
  • chochise 14.12.05, 15:30
    Didn't the Iranian president come up with a holocaust denial claim, today?




    Holocaust a myth, says Iran president
    By Times Online and agencies

    The President of Iran claimed today that the Holocaust was a myth put about by
    Europeans to justify creating a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.

    Speaking to thousands of people in the southeastern city of Zahedan, Mahmoud
    Ahmadinejad said: "Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and
    consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets."

    www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1930053,00.html
  • firemouse 14.12.05, 17:23
    Ah, I would not pay much attention to what is spoken in this part of the world
    about Israel - all the region countries hate them and would erase it from the
    Earth if they only could.

    I can really understand it - let's assume that UN decides to create a new state
    in Europe. I believe all countries which would have to make space for it would
    immediately hate the new state.

    Say we get a new Borussian state in place of old Ostpreussen. Poland and Russia
    will be first to protest.

    So he just says that there was a plot to create Israel where it is now,
    according to me. But if he gets accused of HD (which is possible, his speech
    touches this very directly), then he and his country will have problems.

    FM
  • russh 14.12.05, 17:57
    Dear Firemouse,

    There is a lot more to understand than you imply with your assumptions below.

    It's a very old and bruising story, and there is not just one side to it. It's
    one of those that is either better to leave alone, or be prepared for a long a
    protracted debate, that will probably become very heated.
  • firemouse 15.12.05, 11:30
    Of course, there is more. I just think that anybody would think "Oh, another HD
    crime!" So I simply leave it go its way.

    But do we discuss here Irving and his HD activity - which I find unacceptable,
    regardless of the story how it happened (and certainly this could be stopped if
    American Jews, who knew about it would react), or Iran president? If the latter
    then I think this is another anti-Israel alliance and provocations. As said,
    touching HD in his speech he went into very dangerous field and if he thinks
    that this is a myth then he probably never read memories of many German
    officials from III Reich time, where they openly admit coordinated homicide
    against Jews, nor visited KLs where this happened, gettos remains, or saying
    simply - never went to school.

    But HD is one story, and apart from the number of victim (which is mostly
    exaggerated, but huge anyway) this is undeniable fact. Plotting against
    existence of Israel state is another thing and I will be not surprised if soon
    Iran would form another anti-Israel coalition with Arab countries.

    Why do I think so?

    Arab countries will always try to destroy Israel. First, territory. Second,
    humiliation in wars and by the world opinion, taking mostly Israel's side. But
    they lacked resources to reach their aim, and now with addition of Iran
    potential they may first time get it. The obstacle is American Army in Iraq,
    which will not pass Iran forces through and may enage in the conflict if
    Israel's existence will be threatend. Seeing this in a broad perspective, an
    Arab-Persian coalition, especially after victory over Israel, can be a force
    threatening Europe, considering especially a large Muslim minorty in EU. don't
    forget that many EU countries do not encourage these minorities to merge into
    societies, like events in France, Spain, UK and the Netherlands shown. Many
    Western Europeans despises these immigrants, hey, they despise even the
    immigrants from Eastern Europe, so what we talk about. All the people are seen
    as cheap labour force, who was once necessary and now only takes social benefits
    or steals jobs from the natives. This is of course simplified, because such
    position is not supported everywhere and against all immigrants, but in general
    is strong and gets more stronger as the EU economy collapses under social
    burdens. But no one wants to resign from "social economy", so this will always
    get worse, not actually the immigrants are responsible for this. But who wants
    to understand, (s)he does.

    So back into simulation, an Arab-Persian coalition defeats Israel, this causes a
    negative stir in Muslim societies in Europe (extremes are minority there, but
    able to take the lead), what Turkey will do is now the question (that's why they
    should join EU asap), possibly Afghanistan joins the coalition, hopefully
    Pakistan not, and we face a giant war between Europe and AP coalition. Where
    Europe, at least initially, is likely to lose.

    So I think that Israel is just an excuse here to give the offer..

    And I hope I am wrong.

    So do I think and you can agree or not but I try to see further than just
    concentrate on words.

    FM
  • firemouse 14.12.05, 17:12
    Legally, I suppose that Holocaust Denial is a crime in Austria, that's why he's
    got arrested.

    Personally, I never read anything from him so I can't speak.

    FM
  • bartis_ervin 15.12.05, 10:30

    Personally, I think that Holocaust denial shouldn't be a crime. I don't think
    that silencing him is productive, rather counter productive. Now he can make a
    martyr of himself.
    I think that rather the education should be the key. Educate the society that
    something like this happened, show to kids and students Nazi camps and then the
    society would marginalize Irving and his company.

    If somebody would incite for crimes included in the Penal Code, I would be the
    first to say: Jail them!

    With Ahmadinejad the difference is that he'll never go to Austria and nobody
    will arrest him and charge him.

    Portulaco, here are some links:
    news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4449948.stm
    news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4446646.stm
    news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4449212.stm
    news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4460466.stm
    Ervin

    Thebartiski.blogspot.com
  • russh 15.12.05, 11:13
    100% agreed.

    Education is the only long term solution to stopping any kind of violence, and
    especially for preventing something similar to the holocaust happening again.

    I sincerely believe that the teaching of the holocaust, and other instances of
    genocide should be a compulsory part of any school curriculem, and people should
    be encouraged to visit Auschwitz or similar.
  • firemouse 15.12.05, 11:39
    I agree too, but why not add to this visits at Kolyma?

    Communist genocide was no less brutal and AFAIR Stalin is awarded by Guiness
    with first prize in category "mass killer".

    I have in my family people who were jailed and gulaged by NKWD after IIWW and
    they have no funny stories to say.

    This is sad that so many people in the West, where communism never existed,
    still think that it was just an attractive form of government and forget so
    easily what it brought to many of us. We can have better perspective, but as
    long as Western Europe will need Russian gas and oil, not mentioning access to
    Russian market, they will never listen to ex-bloc testimonies.

    FM
  • varsovian 15.12.05, 12:01
    Stalin - "A fine Christian gentleman" - Roosevelt.
    They should have shot his cojones off for that bloomer.

    Education and holocaust denial is one thing, and I'd go for freedom of speech
    for fanatics up to the point where they get dangerous to public order.
    Education and a balanced view of history for kids is another thing entirely.

    I had this conversation in Birkenau with a English friend who was visiting. Of
    German Jewish background (parents fled Germany), his only knowledge of Poland
    was Schindler's List. He had so many questions to ask and was so open minded,
    but became irritated at his own ignorance of Polish affairs. He conceded that
    there was no way education could overcome this problem generally, as history
    teachers could face prosecution for forwarding theories about why the Jews
    failed to put up a serious fight in any country. Let's not discuss that one.
    He also said that his mother was lucky in getting compensation early on from
    the German govt, as later claimants had much of the compensation eaten up by
    their lawyers.

    Education is not the answer, because there is no-one brave enough to deliver it
    apart from fanatics - who are precisely the wrong people.
  • russh 15.12.05, 22:19
    Re Stalin - absolutely. The guy, and his 'government' were at least on a par
    with Hitler. How many mass graves have been found?

    I don't know though if there is still anyone left in the 'West' who has any
    pretences as to Russian behaviour. There have been too many articles, films and
    books for anyone not have read or seen them.

    The past is the past though, and now there's the global market to worry about!
  • portulaco 15.12.05, 11:47
    Thank you for the links Ervin,

    It's enough to see the image of this man to see he's choleric, his wrinkles
    between his eyebrows show a constant hanger.

    Since few years there is a tendency to make Hitler a victim more than a
    murderer.

    I can give exemple of lack of knowledge about the holocaust in my own country,
    many people don't even know that Auschwitz and Berkinau concentration camps are
    in Poland, many believe they're in Germany.

    I recall some Portuguese guy saying very proudly that we went to Germany and
    payed also a visit to Auschwitz and Treblinka!

    Another important metter wich I believe is not spoken openly.

    Jewish community was devastated but there is nowadays an excessive domain of
    Jewish influence in the maintenance of the Polish concentration camps,
    everybody should know that this "hells" were also to Poles,Gipsy etc...

    I'm not at all anti-semit!


    The termination of Jewish community, the Holocaust was obviously planned to the
    detail much before 1940's.



  • varsovian 15.12.05, 12:05
    I don't think the massacre of all the Jews was planned that early, actually.
    The Nazis were very disorganized indeed. Despite Germany having some excellent
    economists and totalitarian government, Britain organized her economy better
    during the war. Probably the last time it was well-organized.
    Nazi thinking developed during the war.
  • portulaco 15.12.05, 12:41
    Mainkampf is a proof of the ideas of Hitler for God sake!
  • varsovian 15.12.05, 12:57
    Oh I agree entirely.
    No-one would seriously say that Hitler was nothing other than evil. I just
    wanted to point out that the concept of the Final Solution developed during the
    war. It's just a question of the timing of the decision. If it had been
    decided earlier, the Nazis would have started the slaughter earlier.
    Again, no-one serious would claim that Hitler was not the person ultimately
    responsible nor that he was the only one responsible.
  • bartis_ervin 15.12.05, 15:40

    The fact that education is not well organised is not a proof that education is
    not THE way.

    Romania until 1999-2000 officialy denied that Romas and Jews were exterminated
    in the country during the II WW. In Romanian history books you won't find any
    description or lesson about the Holocaust or Romania's (Antonescu's role) in
    murdering Jews and Roma.

    What I don't understand is why CoE and EU and Israel are not putting pressure on
    Romania...

    Ervin

    Thebartiski.blogspot.com
  • varsovian 15.12.05, 16:08
    That's disgraceful.
    By the way, did Romania try to make itself out to be a victim of Nazism like
    Hungary and Austria?
  • bartis_ervin 15.12.05, 19:17

    I was born and grew up in Romania, but I am ethnic Hungarian, so I have a bit
    different view of history than the mainstreamsmile

    If you have time, read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Antonescu

    I took a look at the Romanian version of the article and to my greatest surprise
    the "tough" parts are taken out.

    While according to the Romanian version it is not sure if Antonescu was
    antisemite and if yes, then whether his motives were economical or based on race.

    The English version writes the harsh and painful truth:
    "In general, Ion Antonescu was dominated by his loathing of Jews and Judaism. He
    revealed this hatred at a session of the Council of Ministers on April 15, 1941:
    “I give the mob complete license to massacre [the Jews]. I will withdraw to my
    fortress, and after the slaughter, I will restore order.” This was a rather
    accurate prediction of what was to take place in Iasi shortly thereafter. In
    numerous instances Antonescu personally instigated specific antisemitic steps
    adopted by the Romanian fascist state....Antonescu was a war criminal in the
    purest definition of the phrase. His leadership involved the Romanian government
    in crimes against humanity unrivaled in Romania’s sometimes glorious, sometimes
    cruel history"

    Ervin

    Thebartiski.blogspot.com
  • usenetposts 16.12.05, 00:46
    Hmmn. Someone needs to point out to the mods of Wikipedia the sort of
    censorship that is going on there.

    I might take some action on this if I have your leave to do so.

    --
    - Uncle Davey's Homepage -
    :: Foreigners Living in Poland Forum
  • bartis_ervin 16.12.05, 09:22

    I don't think that you need my leave and I thnk it is a good idea to intervene.
    The thing is that the users are making the materials, so it means that the users
    also censored the RO version of the article.

    I'm sure that you know the history of the region well and also that Romanians
    are not self-confident regarding their history. This is why, even on an
    insitutionalized level they try not to present the violent and ugly parts of the
    history.

    It's not the right post to say this, but I don't want to dig in now: how did
    your car registering went? Why you don't sue the Transport Ministry? I don't
    know how costy are lawsuits here, in Romania if you sued a public institution it
    costed nothing.
    In a way it might be a waste of time, but in a way not because it is about your
    legally recognised rights.

    Ervin

    Thebartiski.blogspot.com
  • varsovian 16.12.05, 12:58
    ervin
    I have a Hungarian Slovakian relation I'm on good terms with - persecuted by
    his Polish wife though(she vetoed her kids learning Hungarian, would you
    believe).
  • bartis_ervin 16.12.05, 15:39

    That's a pity.. but they have their passports and all the shots and if they
    worked it out this way.. Anyway, it is a pity. I talked with a couple of child
    psychologists and they said that 3 languages from the start it is no problem,
    though it might have the effect that the malutki/malutka will start talking a
    bit later.

    My future kids have already a list of 3 languages: Polish, Hungarian and
    English. Probably we'll live in some crazy place like Azerbaijan or Kirgyzstan,
    so some local language skills could be useful. A latin language would be also
    nice, but here is getting a bit too muchsmile We'll seesmile

    Is you Hungarian friend from Slovakia living in Warsaw? I would be interested in
    contacting him.

    Ervin

    Thebartiski.blogspot.com
  • varsovian 16.12.05, 16:38
    He lives in Gora Kalwaria

    As for my relations ... the English side thought we were crazy making the kids
    as Polish as possible while we were living in England, while the Polish side
    thinks we're crazy for making the kids as English as possible now we're living
    in Poland.
    If we'd listened to both of them the kids would be speaking no language at all,
    presumably.
  • russh 16.12.05, 16:42
    Thank god you didn't listen to them.

    The kids have a born advantage.
  • usenetposts 16.12.05, 00:44
    bartis_ervin napisał:

    >
    > Personally, I think that Holocaust denial shouldn't be a crime. I don't think
    > that silencing him is productive, rather counter productive. Now he can make a
    > martyr of himself.

    He can make a martyr of himself all he likes, but Bubba will be making a bitch
    of him. And the only people that this "martyrdom" of his will appeal to are
    those who are set to go to jail without passing go and collecting 200 shekels
    and become Bubba's bitches in the not too distant future.

    The we can all practice Irving Anal Rape Denial, in exchange for his Holocaust
    Denial, whenever he complains about it.

    --
    - Uncle Davey's Homepage -
    :: Foreigners Living in Poland Forum
  • ianek70 17.12.05, 11:30
    Today four young men were handing out leaflets in the centre of Katowice.
    Since they claimed it was a campaign for freedom of speech, I took one.
    But even from the title "Austrian Soviet Republic" it was obvious that it was
    written by braindead fascists, and could only be of interest to other braindead
    fascists.
    It describes Irving as a "well-known and respected" historian and a "great
    friend of Poland". The words "Hitler" and "holocaust" don't appear at all in
    the text, and the bigoted old fart's crime is described as "disproving the
    official, politically correct version of history."
    So they distort facts to fight for the right for others to distort facts.
    Irving is a nasty, bitter little man, but as so many have already said, his
    arrest was counter-productive. They should do what the British do - let him
    speak, but throw eggs and bottles at him.
  • nasza_maggie 17.12.05, 11:37
    Facism is quite 'popular'(?) in that part of Poland. Maybe it's because of high
    unemployment.
    Anyway, was it something form Mlodzież Wszechpolska? They're a bunch of Adrian
    Mole lookalikes who run around with 'anti' slogans for everything.
    --
    On Her Majesty's Service
    m a n n e r s smile
  • ianek70 17.12.05, 11:45
    nasza_maggie napisała:

    > Facism is quite 'popular'(?) in that part of Poland. Maybe it's because of
    high
    >
    > unemployment.
    > Anyway, was it something form Mlodzież Wszechpolska? They're a bunch of
    Adrian
    > Mole lookalikes who run around with 'anti' slogans for everything.

    No, it wasn't the wszechpolaczkis, it was the NOP, who are even stupider. As it
    took them over a month to respond to Irving's arrest, they can't be very well
    organised, and disorganised people don't make very good fascists. It defeats
    the whole purpose.
    Their logo represents a hand holding a sword, but it seems to be holding the
    sharp end smile
    www.nop.org.pl
  • nasza_maggie 17.12.05, 11:52
    goodness, I recognise themsmile During the elections they had one of the worst
    adverts for their leader to be president that I've ever seen!
    It was as if they let a bunch of 12 year olds into the edit suite, gave them
    some slogans and film material and hey presto!

    Heh, no need to take any notice of them. I guess they're like the National
    Front in the UK.
    --
    On Her Majesty's Service
    m a n n e r s smile
  • ianek70 17.12.05, 12:06
    nasza_maggie napisała:

    > goodness, I recognise themsmile During the elections they had one of the worst
    > adverts for their leader to be president that I've ever seen!

    That's the fellows.
    There's lots of them in Sosnowiec. They seem to think that if the town was 101%
    white, Slavic and aryan (instead of 100%, like it is now), it wouldn't be the
    dullest, ugliest and most depressing place in Europe. In some ways it's even
    worse than Johnstone sad
  • ianek70 17.12.05, 12:17
    nasza_maggie napisała:

    > Johnstone?

    A terrible, terrible place.
    You don't even want to know.
  • ianek70 20.02.06, 17:41
    bartis_ervin napisał:

    >
    > It looks that Austrian prisons can change a man's view on many things.

    "I'm not an expert on the Holocaust", says Irving.
    So is he a worthless coward who'll say anything to avoid prison for
    his "beliefs", or just a dirty little hypocrite, who only "knows" about the war
    when people pay for his books and lectures?

    He's pathetic, not even a real fascist, otherwise he'd make a martyr of himself.
  • usenetposts 20.02.06, 19:22
    ianek70 napisał:

    > bartis_ervin napisał:
    >
    > >
    > > It looks that Austrian prisons can change a man's view on many things.
    >

    Heh heh heh.

    > "I'm not an expert on the Holocaust", says Irving.
    > So is he a worthless coward who'll say anything to avoid prison for
    > his "beliefs", or just a dirty little hypocrite, who only "knows" about the
    war
    >
    > when people pay for his books and lectures?
    >

    Quite.

    > He's pathetic, not even a real fascist, otherwise he'd make a martyr of
    >himself

    He's trying to do that a bit, but at the same time asking for "a certain
    leniency in the sentence". I would be very lenient, I would put him in prison
    in Austria at all, I'd just hand him straight over to the Knesset.

    His face, by the way, emanates pure evil.

    --
    - Uncle Davey's Homepage -
    :: Foreigners Living in Poland Forum

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