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Destruction of an icon

28.02.06, 17:53
Dear members of the forum,
Please sign your name and state your protest to demolition of a cultural icon
of Warsaw- the first self-serve Supersam. The city is trying to demolish this
20th century architectural icon to build another shimmering glass office
building. People who really care about the history of the city are trying to
have the building listed as a 20h century historic building.
Please visit the link and vote. Thanks.
www.sztuka.net.pl/palio/html.run?_Instance=www.sztuka.net.pl&_PageID=683&_RowID=1&_TopID=1186&_MidID=1187&_BotID=1188&_CheckSum=-1305626122
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  • usenetposts 28.02.06, 18:12
    I am all in favour of supporting the maintenance of heritage and the communist
    period was an important period in Poland's history and all Europe's history,
    and I never want to see the day when we remove all traces of it in the way
    which has been done to the Berlin wall, for example.

    HOWEVER

    In my opinion you haven't given us all of the information, which is this first
    Supersam? Whereabouts is it and why are the authorities trying to demolish it?
    How much would a renovation cost, how many schools places and hospital beds
    will it buy and are there no other more fitting reminders of communist period
    architecture?

    I would like answers to those questions, and then I will be able to fill in the
    petition of support with a good conscience and without feeling intellectually
    dishonest.

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  • brutt 28.02.06, 22:23
    Hi Dave,
    Thanks for your reply to my post.

    First and foremost I would like to state that this building does not represent
    “Communist architecture” but is one of few examples of mid-century modern
    architecture that we have in Poland. This building was not politically-inspired.
    That’s one reason why it is so special. Not everything that was made in Poland
    during SOCIALIST times is “Communist architecture”. This building was described
    in international architecture magazines of the non-socialist countries. In this
    instance, foregone era of socialist politics has nothing to do with preservation
    of this unique building.
    I will try to find a link with info on the building so you can read up on it.
    Thanks

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  • usenetposts 01.03.06, 00:15
    brutt napisał:

    > Hi Dave,
    > Thanks for your reply to my post.

    Pleasure. Thank you for bringing the topic to this Forum. We like all sorts of
    interesting topics here.

    >
    > First and foremost I would like to state that this building does not represent
    > “Communist architecture” but is one of few examples of mid-century
    > modern architecture that we have in Poland.

    Nevertheless, you have to admit, this building would not look even slightly out
    of place in the VDNKh in Moscow. That's not a negative point by the way. But
    you can see the same steel curves in this building as you can see in the
    Kosmonauts' statue, and a number of other structures around the Ostankino area
    and other areas.

    > This building was not politically-inspired

    Mnnn. But nevertheless, it emerged out of the need to react against a problem
    that had emerged from a political system. And then the very idea that the first
    self service supermarket has to be a state funded piece of show case
    architecture by the same team as brought the Stadion Dziesieciolecia - you just
    wouldn't get that in the West - now I will grant you that some of the new towns
    of England rebuilt hastily after the War years ALSO had a number of things done
    in those style, which aged rather quickly and soon got a rather
    slummy "fifties" look, and in most cases have already been replaced by modern
    malls - regrettably in my opinion, as of course they have a huge sentimental
    value - but in this case you cannot say that the architecture is not political.
    pardon me for the structuralist approach, but there is always going to be some
    political angle in any piece of architecture, even if it indirect.

    The political context of this building is self evident, to any one who studied
    the ways of what you call the socialist system.

    And this is what I glean from the article you post in the separate post you
    gave, that and the fact that now I see it I am familiar with it and I've been
    in it a few times.


    > That’s one reason why it is so special. Not everything that was made in
    > Poland
    > during SOCIALIST times is “Communist architecture”.

    Maybe not to the degree that the Palac of Culture is clearly a communist icon,
    but I still maintain that the political context is clearly visible on this
    building. Even the social areas for staff referred to in the article. Look
    for "social areas for staff" in a modern mall - you'll find them smoking on the
    stairwell.

    > This building was described
    > in international architecture magazines of the non-socialist countries. In
    this
    > instance, foregone era of socialist politics has nothing to do with
    preservatio
    > n
    > of this unique building.

    Well, you say that, but in fact that would be an argument IN FAVOUR of keeping
    it. Just as it is an argument IN FAVOUR of keeping the Palace of Culture.

    The pure sentimental value of a building is never regarded as a good reason, as
    every building that was ever pulled down is missed, often sorely, by some
    people. A stronger argument is that is IS a reflection of an interesting time
    in Poland's history, and had Poland had a different history, it would not have
    had quite this building fulfilling quite this role.

    > I will try to find a link with info on the building so you can read up on it.
    > Thanks
    >

    OK, I read that excellent article. Thank you for your contribution.

    I'll vote in favour of keeping it. You'll be able to find my comment there
    shortly.

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  • brutt 01.03.06, 03:15
    Dave, once again thanks for such a fast reply to my post.

    For some reason I do not have an option to reply to your post in form of
    citations ( it only shows “odpowiedz” and not “odpowiedz cytujac”- do not know
    why). So, I will answer your post by addressing its main ideas.

    You have mentioned that the building reminds you of Moscow’s architecture of the
    same era. This is true. Many so-called Soviet architects came from countries
    such as Estonia and Latvia and trained before WWII at Bauhaus in Dessau and
    before, in Weimar. Following the war some left for the West, some stayed. Many
    of the Soviet projects in the 50s and 60s came out of architectural
    firms/offices ran by these talented artists (personally I consider architecture
    a form of art, sort of live-in sculptureswink ). This architectural look that
    reminds you of the 1950s Moscow buildings was actually created in Germany in
    the 1930s, later propagated throughout Europe by people who taught and trained
    at Bauhaus. Two well known textbook figures were Walter Gropius and Ludwig Mies
    van der Rohe, a German and a Dutchman, who left for America before WWII and
    brought the style there, later renamed the International style. Personally, the
    Supersam in Warsaw reminds me of work by Eero Saarinen, an architect that
    designed the well-known TWA terminal at the JFK airport in NYC, although this
    may not be the perfect example to support my claim,. Nevertheless, I do see
    some resemblance. Also I see the likeness of work of architects such as Marcel
    Breuer and aforementioned Ludwig Mies van der Rohe. This is yet another reason
    why I think that the building should be spared. It represents proof that the
    latest architectural development penetrated the division between Western and
    Central/Eastern European countries. This is also shown by the usage of unusual
    construction materials.

    I do agree with you that politics play a role in creation of architecture. This
    was the case in Poland for 45 years, and most likely still is, just on a
    different level. The creation of Supersam, with its socially conscious aspects
    such as the employee resting room, depicts the idea, at least in an ideological
    way, that in the former system, people and individuals really counted (I know
    this sounds a bit utopian). Politics still play a role today. Most likely
    politics are the reason why the city government is trying so persistently to get
    the Supersam demolished. The land was promised to another corporation for
    structure of yet another new office building.

    Well, my post is gotten a bit too long. I hope that I presented my point of view
    in a clear way.

    Dave, I would like to sincerely thank you for your vote.

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  • dandywarhol 28.02.06, 22:56
    I'm torn, really. It's definitely a good example of the period stylistically,
    but it's getting run down (much like other buildings of the period). I remember
    my mom shopping there (ul. Puławska 2, by Pl. Unii Lubelskiej) when we lived on
    Madalińskiego one summer. I love buildings with some kind of character or style,
    which this one has (especially compared to the apartment block I live in now
    which dates back to the same year). On the other hand the condition of the
    Supersam does not look that good, and I can understand the desire to build
    something there that isn't a basically-one-story supermarket. It did win an
    award for design when it was built though. But a lot of the interior features
    are now gone or destroyed. It does look like someone would have to invest quite
    a bit of money to refurbish it back to its former glory and clearly the location
    is a pretty desirable one, which doesn't really suit a low-margin grocery store
    very well. I think it is important as a symbol, especially since it uses a
    non-conventional structure. It is unique and historic; that really should be
    enough to put it on a historical register. It seems silly to be defending a
    supermarket, but on the other hand that's what the Sukiennice in Kraków
    originally where and today no one would dream of reducing them to rubble.
  • usenetposts 01.03.06, 00:48
    I had another thought, and that is maybe you could get Tescos interested. Why?
    Because, the stupid ideas of the former Minister of Finance notwithstanding,
    Tescos actually have an excellent reputation back in the UK of restoring and
    preserving significant landmarks, and incorporating them in their functional
    stores.

    Two Tescos that I know personally come to mind, one is Baldock Tescos
    www.flickr.com/photos/davidcowie/92150446/
    www.knowhere.co.uk/66.html
    which used to be a stockings factory (down, boy), and has a very impressive
    facade, and the other is the celebrated Hoover Building, near the Polish area
    of London:
    www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/tv/dreamspaces/hoover.shtml
    I think in a case like this, you could contact the CEO of Tesco Poland with a
    case for them to look into it with a view to achieving the same aims they
    achieved in the two cases I mentioned, and no doubt a bunch of other projects
    that they have that I don't know about.

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  • brutt 01.03.06, 03:18
    Thanks for the Tesco idea. I will forward it to the committee that is opposing
    the demolition.
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  • brutt 01.03.06, 03:35
    Dandy,
    All I can say that I agree with you. I do realize that it will cost money, a
    lot of money to renovate and maintain the Supersam. But I think that down the
    road we will regret not saving it. Right now there are many proposed projects
    throughout Warsaw to rebuild destroyed during WWII brownstones (kamienice) in
    the pseudo-eclectic style of the 19th century, which I think is ridiculous. You
    cannot build today as they did in the past. I wonder if they are also going to
    replicate the idea of one bathroom for each story of the building. We should
    invest money in preservation of what’s already here and what has a chance of
    being preserved for future generations. After all, Supersam is an icon of a time
    period that’s long gone.

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  • usenetposts 01.03.06, 00:28
    brutt napisał:

    > It's in Polish ut I think you can manage. This article expresses history,
    > importance, and has photos of the building:
    > www.sztuka.net.pl/palio/html.run?
    _Instance=www.sztuka.net.pl&_PageID=445&newsId=5080&callingPageId=483&_CheckSum=
    707463534
    > Thank you for letting me post this topic on your forum. Maybe someone will be
    > interested. Perhaps there are some architecture enthusiasts / historians in
    thi
    > s
    > crowd?

    I think you can be pretty sure there are.

    You're welcome, any time.

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  • kylie1 28.02.06, 23:58
    hi brutt,

    would you happen to have a picture of "SuperSam" ( sounds like "superman" whose
    name is Sam) anywhere.
    I would really like to see what it looks like. Any websites maybe?
    thanks,

    k smile

  • brutt 01.03.06, 03:23
    Hi Kylie,
    Thanks for your interest in the topic. Below is the link with photos of the
    building. Some are of the construction period and grand opening. Others show
    what it looks like today. The article is written in Polish and I don’t know how
    good your Polish is.
    For Poles it is an icon of the post war times: the first self-service
    supermarket, with unusual architecture (for the period).
    www.sztuka.net.pl/palio/html.run?_Instance=www.sztuka.net.pl&_PageID=445&newsId=5080&callingPageId=483&_CheckSum=707463534


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  • kylie1 01.03.06, 04:55
    Thanks brutt...these are really nice pictures - sharp and clear. The Warsaw
    supersam reminds me somewhat of our Canadian Superstore...just as big and
    overwhelming. The only difference is the color. Supersam has got a lot of red
    inside while superstore is all yellow. It drives people nuts. When you're done
    shopping at Superstore you see everything yellow for at least an hour
    afterwards.
    I wouldn't know by just looking at the pictures, but it seems structurally
    sound. And if there is nothing wrong with the building itself, it would be a
    real shame to tear it down.

    Maybe Dave could even pin the "formularz" thingy right at the top of his forum
    so people could read your thread right away. smile

    Keep us posted, brutt. I think it's a wonderful cause and you are doing a great
    job by speaking up. We have to remind ourselves that this is huge part of our
    Polish heritige and once it's gone, it's gone forever.

    smile

  • brutt 01.03.06, 05:30
    Thank you for the kind words. I noticed that you also voted (I noticed the “V”
    city and assumed it was you). Thank you.
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  • usenetposts 01.03.06, 13:12
    kylie1 napisała:

    > Thanks brutt...these are really nice pictures - sharp and clear. The Warsaw
    > supersam reminds me somewhat of our Canadian Superstore...just as big and
    > overwhelming. The only difference is the color. Supersam has got a lot of red
    > inside while superstore is all yellow. It drives people nuts. When you're
    done
    > shopping at Superstore you see everything yellow for at least an hour
    > afterwards.
    > I wouldn't know by just looking at the pictures, but it seems structurally
    > sound. And if there is nothing wrong with the building itself, it would be a
    > real shame to tear it down.
    >
    > Maybe Dave could even pin the "formularz" thingy right at the top of his
    forum
    > so people could read your thread right away. smile
    >
    > Keep us posted, brutt. I think it's a wonderful cause and you are doing a
    great
    >
    > job by speaking up. We have to remind ourselves that this is huge part of our
    > Polish heritige and once it's gone, it's gone forever.
    >
    > smile
    >


    OK, I agree to pin this thread to the top for a week.

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  • nasza_maggie 01.03.06, 16:50
    Hey Brutt

    Can you answer a silly question, perhaps?
    What do McDonalds have to say about the idea?

    As for historians - if you know of 'rewitalizacja Pragi' you'll know where I'm
    coming fromsmile))

    Maggiesmile


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  • brutt 01.03.06, 17:08
    No idea. But isn’t MD a franchise operation? If the MD restaurant decided to
    move elsewhere, I’m sure that the owner can find a new spot for its restaurant.
    Besides, how many MDs ,are there in Warsaw? And how many original examples of
    architecture do we have? Somehow I won’t miss the MD sign on it. It just doesn’t
    fit smile.
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  • nasza_maggie 01.03.06, 17:22
    No, I don't really care about MDs either, what I meant, is getting them
    involved in helping you rescue the building.

    After all it is where they have been since the beginning of their business in
    Poland and it would be good for you to have them on board.


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  • brutt 01.03.06, 17:31
    You are right but I don’t know if MD would be interested. I’ll try to find out.
    Thanks Maggie.

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  • nasza_maggie 01.03.06, 21:16
    Why not? It would be good publicity for them. As they are recently changing
    their 'public image' ie:love the environment, care about local community, put
    more salad in their burgerssmile


    It won't hurt to try.

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  • usenetposts 02.03.06, 12:42
    nasza_maggie napisała:

    > Why not? It would be good publicity for them. As they are recently changing
    > their 'public image' ie:love the environment, care about local community, put
    > more salad in their burgerssmile
    >
    >
    > It won't hurt to try.
    >

    Only don't call the project "Supersize Super Sam", yeah? I gather that's a sore
    point with them.

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  • kylie1 02.03.06, 04:29
    Brutt,

    I am glad you found us on the internet and you are more than welcome to hang
    around with us. We are not a big group and it's always fun to get to know new
    folks. Technically I shouldn't be here (I am from Canada) but Uncle Dave hasn't
    kicked me out yet...he is very kind smile

    Kyliesmile
  • brutt 02.03.06, 06:02
    Kylie, thank you for the invitation. I have been reading this forum once in a
    while but not really participating too much. I noticed it one day on the main
    page of Gazeta, and it reminded me of the times my wife and I had a small
    business in Warsaw that dealt with helping newcomers in establishing themselves
    in Poland. But that was over 8 years ago and now I see there are other companies
    that provide this service.

    Once again thanks for the invite and I hope that Dave won’t mind me contributing
    once in a while.

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  • usenetposts 02.03.06, 12:40
    > Kylie, thank you for the invitation. I have been reading this forum once in a
    > while but not really participating too much. I noticed it one day on the main
    > page of Gazeta, and it reminded me of the times my wife and I had a small
    > business in Warsaw that dealt with helping newcomers in establishing
    themselves
    > in Poland. But that was over 8 years ago and now I see there are other
    companie
    > s
    > that provide this service.
    >
    > Once again thanks for the invite and I hope that Dave won’t mind me contr
    > ibuting
    > once in a while.
    >

    Brutt I am delighted. I hope it will be more often than that. It's a priviledge
    to be able to extend forum hospitality to another successful private forum
    moderator, and a gentleman of your quality.

    I didn't even think you weren't a foreigner, as your English is faultless, but
    for the record, I changed the intro at the top of the Forum here to say "for
    and about foreigners living in Poland". As long as the issues posted will
    interest some of the membership, then I am always delighted. It is actually
    quite hard to go "off topic" in this group, as the interest profile is so broad.

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  • brutt 02.03.06, 16:02
    Dave, thank you for all the kind words and the official welcome smile. I’ll try to
    be a meaningful contributor to this forum and its development.
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  • usenetposts 02.03.06, 12:50
    brutt napisał:

    > No idea. But isn’t MD a franchise operation? If the MD restaurant decide
    > d to
    > move elsewhere, I’m sure that the owner can find a new spot for its resta
    > urant.
    > Besides, how many MDs ,are there in Warsaw? And how many original examples of
    > architecture do we have? Somehow I won’t miss the MD sign on it. It just
    > doesn’t
    > fit smile.

    Ah, but the golden arched "M" represents "Maria Magdalena", whose bloodline, as
    anyone who is up to date in their reading up pulp fiction knows, is the
    Sangreal.

    You think you are getting a polystyrene cup with "caution, contents may be hot"
    written on it, but you are actually getting a miniature piece of the Holy Grail
    which Leonardo himself would fain have desired to drink out of.

    Um...what's this? Oh no, a letter from a London firm of crack anti-plagiarism
    solicitors has just arrived on my desk, I'm being sued for this post!

    I take it all back...

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  • brutt 02.03.06, 16:14
    I have never thought of that. You are opening my eyes to new angles on this
    issue. smile

    You are actually might be right. We as humans constantly reuse iconography of
    the past and apply it to current day events, often not realizing why and when we
    are doing it. Although I not sure if this applies to Golden Arches.

    Actually, once I heard of a study which stated that many children are attracted
    to MD because of its sign and its specific usage of the curved M. It supposedly
    reminded kids of the word MOM

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  • usenetposts 02.03.06, 17:43
    brutt napisał:

    > I have never thought of that. You are opening my eyes to new angles on this
    > issue. smile
    >
    > You are actually might be right. We as humans constantly reuse iconography of
    > the past and apply it to current day events, often not realizing why and when
    w
    > e
    > are doing it. Although I not sure if this applies to Golden Arches.


    That there could be a link between the golden arches of MacDonald and Mary
    first struck me during a visit of Jan Pawel II to Poland, in which an M
    extremely similar in shape to the MacDonalds M, but in blue, was used on all
    the official pamphlets and blurb for that visit, and I was told that it was in
    reference to Mary, although I thought it was to Mary the Mother of Jesus, and
    only the reading of Dan Brown makes me wonder if MacDonalds actually are
    worshipping Maria Magdalene. "MacDonalds" may be a corruption of "Magdalene's"
    only with apostrophe missing, the velar plosive voiced and the nasal and liquid
    exchanging, as they sometimes do as in for example the Spanish "milagro" from
    Latin "miracle".

    That would also explain why Ronald MacDonald has flowing red hair.

    However, I also note that MacDonalds chose their first non-Warsaw location as
    Czestochowa, and along one of the most important ley lines leading to the
    nearby Jasna Gora, the seat of the Black Madonna, and if you draw a line from
    that MacDonalds to the nearby Jasna Gora spire and keep the line going, it's
    interesting to note what you end up with.

    Moreover the pattern of MacDonalds development in Poland is a curious
    combination of the most important commercial areas, transport routes,
    availability of a franchise partner and nearby either a ley line or an
    important Catholic or Pre-Christian monument.

    What is known in America as a quarter-pounder is called in the European
    MacDonalds a "MacRoyal". This, when you consider that "Mac" is Gaelic for "the
    son of" makes it clear that the reference is to the Merovingian royal blood
    line, the "Sang Real" or "San Greal" of Templar legend. Similarly it is no
    coincidence that the fish product is called "Filet O'Fish" - "O" is Gaelic
    for "Grandson of", and the Fish here refers of course to the
    Ichthys symbol used to
    typify Christ by the early church.

    Exactly what the significance of all this is, is beyond me though. I have no
    idea whether the MacDonalds organisation is on the side of the Templars,
    Freemasons and what have you or on the side of Opus Dei, though I suspect the
    former. Hamburgers and supersize fries do not sit easily with a creed of
    mortification of the flesh.

    > Actually, once I heard of a study which stated that many children are
    attracted
    > to MD because of its sign and its specific usage of the curved M. It
    supposedly
    > reminded kids of the word MOM

    Well, according to this idea, it does mean a Mother, but in a different context.

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  • usenetposts 02.03.06, 20:22
    brutt napisał:

    > My goodness Dave, you hit it right on the nose.
    >
    > wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,60935,3191074.html
    > The key here is the color blue. Blue blood perhaps, the royal lineage? I
    think
    > I
    > hear Dan Brown shuffling his notes.
    >

    That's right! And please note the name of the Rabbi who caused the change has a
    name which is ALMOST AN ANAGRAM of Mary!

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  • nasza_maggie 03.03.06, 01:43
    can I have some, of what you guys are on?
    Because it sounds like it could solve a lot of theories I have been obliged to
    prove latelysmile

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  • nasza_maggie 03.03.06, 17:58
    It looks like one of the eldest cinemas in Warsaw is also going to be ripped to
    shreds and a new building put in place...

    www.iluzjon.webpark.pl/

    The ILUZJON cinema will most likely share the fate of the PRAHA cinema in
    Praga, which for years was left to fall apart, and then the exuse was made that
    it was a health hazard. So it was destroyed and in its place a new cinema is
    being built.
    Ofcourse it has nothing to do with the climate of the old place.

    It's a shame that we do not look after these buldings.

    If you drive down Karl Marx Alle in Berlin, you will find the whole 'climate'
    has been preserved.

    Ofcourse ILUZJON is magic. It is one place where you can still watch old films
    in the old atmosphere. It is a very old buliding and one of the fires cinemas
    in Warsaw.
    It would be nice if the just renenwed the bulding and not built a whole new
    one, the style of the new one will most probably, as usual, not fit into the
    surrounding area. Glass, metal etc.

    Iluzjon is part of the Polish Film archives.(FILMOTEKA NARODOWA) Which is so
    unfunded and short of money to preserve and renew films, you often hear that
    the employees pay to preserve and clean the films with their own money.

    Some of the films are in a tragic state. There are no proper facilities to
    store them, or clean them. So they loose colour and get mouldy...


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  • brutt 04.03.06, 22:46
    Yes, that is terrible.
    In my city many older theaters are closed or soon to be closed due to a new
    multiplex that is currently being build. Although I have nothing against new
    development (as long as it doesn’t interfere with well established ideas/places)
    , I wish that the old and well-established theaters would still be open. Maybe
    they can find a new niche, such as showing independent cinema, cinema of a
    certain time period, or Polish movies only cinema. This way they can gain an
    edge over Hollywood productions which are mainly shown in large multiplex
    theaters. I would buy an old theater if I had the money

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    Antyki i Historia Sztuki
  • brutt 10.03.06, 02:53
    Hey Dave,
    Thanks for your help.
    --
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