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Freedom of speech - support it next Saturday!

04.06.06, 13:13
Next Saturday we all have a chance to support democracy and freedom of speech
in Poland. Surprisingly Kaczor’s Stadtbevollmachtiger has decided to respect
the Constructional Court’s recent ruling, which guarantees freedom of
assembly – and so Marsz Równości will be completely legal this year even
though I am sure some of the ruling totalitarians would like to bugger the
judges from the Constitutional Court.

This demonstration has nothing to do with gay rights – it’s about freedom of
speech. It is our chance to demonstrate against Poland’s run towards a
totalitarian clerical black hole. I expect to see everyone who is in favour
of free speech next Saturday – including David and other hardliners.

serwisy.gazeta.pl/wyborcza/1,68586,3392030.html
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  • hardenfelt 04.06.06, 17:29
    usenetposts napisał:

    > Jeg skal vaere i Købnhavn.

    Have a nice time in Copenhagen – I’ll go in September. First visit in Denmark
    for over 2½ years.

    Anyway – thanks for your moral support. I’m sure You’ll be with us in your
    heart next Saturday.
  • sobieski010 05.06.06, 08:55
    We will have nice chance to see the LPR-Jugend in action. Saw them last year and
    they might have cut a nice figure in the Reichkristallnacht.
  • ejmarkow 05.06.06, 10:34
    Such demonstrations, or marches/parades if you will, are a plus for any
    country's tourism and hospitality industry. Just look at how successful
    Berlin's 'Love Parade' was in drawing thousands of backpackers into their city.
    Poland should consider such an event, complemented by concerts and souvenir
    stalls. It could also be a boost for Kaczynski's coalition government
    reputation wise.
  • sobieski010 05.06.06, 11:16
    Well... agreed with the last point. Gay Parades in for example Brussels are
    often so outrageously decadent they are quite funny. Idiot to take offence on
    them even if you are not very fond of gays...
    And they indeed attract lots of tourism and always proceed very peacefully.

    As for Poland, well small chance for that in a climate where the LPR asks to
    investigate links between the gay movement and the underworld and where all gays
    are classified as phaedofiles.
  • usenetposts 05.06.06, 12:29
    hardenfelt napisał:

    > usenetposts napisał:
    >
    > > Jeg skal vaere i Købnhavn.
    >
    > Have a nice time in Copenhagen – I’ll go in September. First visit
    > in Denmark
    > for over 2½ years.
    >
    > Anyway – thanks for your moral support. I’m sure You’ll be wi
    > th us in your
    > heart next Saturday.

    I certainly won't be in favour of those who make the right-wing look like a
    bunch of crazed fascists, that's for sure.

    At the end of the day, people should not be victimised if they are gay. The
    only distinctions I would make is that they ought to call their marriages
    something other than Biblical marriage (in the state they can have the same tax
    and inheritance rights as far as I'm concerned, but marriage itself is an
    institution from religion, and should be done according to the rules - they
    could call it "civil partnership", "parriage", whatever).

    I am not sure about them adopting kids, although they can bring up kids if they
    bring them into the world themselves, as some are bisexual, and the cut-off is
    not clear.

    I have no problems with them being in the military, although it might be
    helpful to give them their own dedicated platoons. Not only would this avoid
    conflict with the straight troops, but might even help the uptake in the
    military, especially in gay countries like the US and the UK, which also
    coincidentally I'm sure are among the most aggressive militarily.

    As far as the Church is concerned, they should be free to work as whatever role
    a Church will allow them. The fact is, however that no Church which maintains
    its faith either in the Bible or in long-standing traditions will sanction
    this, and I am against pushing either Churches or private business owners from
    being forced to tolerate what they don't want to.

    After all, there's no law forcing gay companies to tolerate reactionary
    rednecks, so why should reactionary rednecks be forced to tolerate gays?

    But freedom of speech they can have. I have no issue with that.

    --
    - Uncle Davey's Homepage -
    :: Foreigners Living in Poland Forum
  • sobieski010 05.06.06, 12:55
    I think marriage is foremost a civil contract, and some people later decide to
    add a religious annexe to that. This for the concrete execution of it all - the
    emotional decision by two partners to forge a bond theoritically for life is
    something else.
    Biblical marriage and all that is fine - but we live in a secular society
    (although in Poland I am not quite sure these days)and I do not think the
    Biblical side of it matters in a formal way.
    I do not understand that in Poland a church wedding also counts for the civil side.
    In Belgium this is simply impossible. Strict separation of church and state
    since Napoleon makes this unthinkable.
    Once again, if a couple decides to give a Biblical meaning to their wedding -
    fine - but if they prefer a civil wedding (or after a divorce they have no
    choice) this wedding is as worthy as the first one which included a church annexe.
    I think the principle of separation of church and state is a vital one for a
    modern secular society. The same reason why for example you won't find in any
    public building in Belgium crucifixes, photos of the pope etc...
  • ianek70 05.06.06, 13:13
    sobieski010 napisał:

    > I think marriage is foremost a civil contract, and some people later decide to
    > add a religious annexe to that. This for the concrete execution of it all -
    the
    > emotional decision by two partners to forge a bond theoritically for life is
    > something else.
    > Biblical marriage and all that is fine - but we live in a secular society
    > (although in Poland I am not quite sure these days)and I do not think the
    > Biblical side of it matters in a formal way.

    If two people want to be together it's their personal matter, and if they want
    their relationship to be recognised by the state or by their religion, it's
    their choice.
    The unromantic view of many in the Polish church that marriage is only about
    making babies is sick. Partnership is more important in a human relationship
    than biology - people are not sheep or rabbits, which is unfortunate for
    religious leaders.

    > I think the principle of separation of church and state is a vital one for a
    > modern secular society. The same reason why for example you won't find in any
    > public building in Belgium crucifixes, photos of the pope etc...

    All civilised democracies accept that the government has no right to force it's
    beliefs on citizens.
    Oh, sorry, all civilised democracies except Poland.
  • russh 05.06.06, 22:35
    'I do not understand that in Poland a church wedding also counts for the civil
    side.'

    Also true in the UK. The Church of England has the obligation to marry people
    who conform to their 'rules', and this counts as a legal marriage.

    Re the rest of your post - agreed.
  • hardenfelt 05.06.06, 16:32
    > > usenetposts napisał:
    > I certainly won't be in favour of those who make the right-wing look like a
    > bunch of crazed fascists, that's for sure.


    I’m happy to hear that, but I have never suspected you of being inclined to
    throwing stones (or eggs) at happy and peaceful people.
  • ianek70 05.06.06, 13:25
    hardenfelt napisał:


    > This demonstration has nothing to do with gay rights – it’s about f
    > reedom of
    > speech.

    Exactly, but the wszechpolaczki and other frustrated pseudo-moralists are
    obsessed with sex (which is understandable - have you ever seen a handsome
    skinhead?) so they've decided to make it a gay thing.
    So I hope to see the headline "Lesbians Kick the Shit out of Polish Fascists"
    in the world's Sunday papers smile

    And on a related note:
    miasta.gazeta.pl/katowice/1,35019,3394659.html
    If Bolek had titten, how could they be gay?
  • ejmarkow 06.06.06, 07:38
    hardenfelt napisał:

    > Next Saturday we all have a chance to support democracy and freedom of speech
    > in Poland....> This demonstration has nothing to do with gay rights – it’s
    > about freedom of speech.

    ianek70 napisał:

    > Exactly, but the wszechpolaczki and other frustrated pseudo-moralists are
    > obsessed with sex (which is understandable - have you ever seen a handsome
    > skinhead?) so they've decided to make it a gay thing.

    Hardenfelt and Ianek70,

    It is absolutely incorrect and untrue what you infer. Poland's far right, LPR,
    wszechpolaczki, or pseudo-moralists "are not" the ones trying to make this
    parade (Parada Równości or Equality Days Parade) a gay thing. They have nothing
    to do with giving the parade such a label. It is the parade
    organizers 'themselves' that are doing this. So please, as much as you dislike
    the right-oriented government, don't put the blame on them. You are distorting
    the true facts by making your allegations and when you make claims as you do,
    this in itself is a provocation and instigates conflict. Just read their
    website carefully, which is in several languages.
    www.paradarownosci.pl/
    The proof is in front of your eyes. They (the organizers) have made this parade
    more of a gay event than anything else, and not one of 'freedom of speech' as
    you claim. Just look at the numerous references and symbolism on their web
    site. It utilizes the known international colors and flag of their organization
    and makes numerous references such as 'Gay Map of Warsaw for the Equality
    Days', 'Gay Weimar Triangle', 'Gay Clubs in Warsaw', even going as far as
    equating their parade in the following manner: "Parada Rownosci (Polish gay
    pride)". Read their faq as well. It should clear things up for you as to what
    this parade is all about. I'm not sure if you were unaware of this prior to
    making your allegations, or if you are intentionally stirring things up. The
    truth of the matter is, it all seems like a provocation and a publicity stunt.
    I am not defending or critizing anyone here, just trying to be objective and
    root out any false assumptions. I think the following question was once
    presented on this forum by somebody else: "Do you see straights organizing and
    marching in such a publized parade?" No, I haven't noticed such an event. So,
    why can't everyone just keep their preferences and orientations to themselves?
    Why a parade? As I stated earlier, the best reason for such a parade is to lure
    tourists into the country. That's a plus.
  • hardenfelt 06.06.06, 08:44
    ejmarkow napisał:
    > Hardenfelt and Ianek70,
    >
    > It is absolutely incorrect and untrue what you infer. Poland's far right,
    LPR,
    > wszechpolaczki, or pseudo-moralists "are not" the ones trying to make this
    > parade (Parada Równości or Equality Days Parade) a gay thing. They have
    nothing
    >
    > to do with giving the parade such a label. It is the parade
    > organizers 'themselves' that are doing this. So please, as much as you
    dislike
    > the right-oriented government, don't put the blame on them. You are
    distorting
    > the true facts by making your allegations and when you make claims as you do,
    > this in itself is a provocation and instigates conflict. Just read their
    > website carefully, which is in several languages.
    > www.paradarownosci.pl/
    > The proof is in front of your eyes. They (the organizers) have made this
    parade
    >
    > more of a gay event than anything else, and not one of 'freedom of speech' as
    > you claim. Just look at the numerous references and symbolism on their web
    > site. It utilizes the known international colors and flag of their
    organization
    >
    > and makes numerous references such as 'Gay Map of Warsaw for the Equality
    > Days', 'Gay Weimar Triangle', 'Gay Clubs in Warsaw', even going as far as
    > equating their parade in the following manner: "Parada Rownosci (Polish gay
    > pride)". Read their faq as well.

    It is true that the parade is organised by gay organisation, and that the
    original purpose was to dance, laugh, sing and draw society’s attention to the
    lack of acceptance of people with another sexual orientation.

    After the honourable (?) Mr. Lech Duck last year as Mayor of Warsaw forbad last
    years parade referring to the Road Traffic Act the whole thing has changed it’s
    character. Subsequently several alike parades were forbidden in different towns
    all over Poland. From this point it is no longer a question of gay rights but
    of freedom of speech. And most people who go on Saturday don’t give a F. about
    gay rights – but they care about democracy. This is why this parade might be a
    bit less lively than the parades in Berlin and other cities.
  • sobieski010 06.06.06, 09:49
    Especially when they will be attacked by the thugs from the LPR Jugend.
    If you have a party in government who equals gay and lesbians to criminals and
    even worse...
    We have gay friends and they are constantly in fear of being discovered and
    subsequently their life will be hell.
  • monii7 06.06.06, 08:58
    I will be there smile ..

    FREEDOM !!!

  • hardenfelt 06.06.06, 10:09
    monii7 napisała:

    > I will be there smile ..
    >
    > FREEDOM !!!

    Great – on Friday we can agree on where to meet! If more people wants to join
    in we can make a banner: “Foreigners living in Poland – Uncle Davie’s boys and
    girls for freedom!”
  • monii7 06.06.06, 11:03
    I am going whith my Polish friends ..(I'm from Poland smile) But maybe we will
    meet together ..
    There will be one portuguese friend of mine too smile
  • ja_karola 10.06.06, 19:28
    monii7 napisała:

    > I am going whith my Polish friends ..(I'm from Poland smile) But maybe we will
    > meet together ...

    Monii7 and Hardenfelt:
    So did you go? How was it? What are your impressions?
  • hardenfelt 10.06.06, 21:17
    ja_karola napisała:

    > monii7 napisała:
    >
    > > I am going whith my Polish friends ..(I'm from Poland smile) But maybe we wi
    > ll
    > > meet together ...
    >
    > Monii7 and Hardenfelt:
    > So did you go? How was it? What are your impressions?


    Great atmosphere and great people. A few boys from some scout group threw eggs
    at us, so they had their fun as well. I’ll be back next year!
  • usenetposts 11.06.06, 14:45
    hardenfelt napisał:

    > ja_karola napisała:
    >
    > > monii7 napisała:
    > >
    > > > I am going whith my Polish friends ..(I'm from Poland smile) But maybe
    > we wi
    > > ll
    > > > meet together ...
    > >
    > > Monii7 and Hardenfelt:
    > > So did you go? How was it? What are your impressions?
    >
    >
    > Great atmosphere and great people. A few boys from some scout group threw
    eggs
    > at us, so they had their fun as well. I’ll be back next year!

    And the irony of that is that you are not a "gay pole". I may be wrong, but I
    would have you down as a straight, with possible bisexual leanings, Danish left-
    wing intellectual, but you will have beefed up the stats of the Polish gays
    anyway. The real ones were probably a vanishly small proportion of the
    marchers, if any at all. Everyone else was just there to "stick up for them".

    --
    - Uncle Davey's Homepage -
    :: Foreigners Living in Poland Forum
  • hardenfelt 11.06.06, 15:03
    usenetposts napisał:

    > And the irony of that is that you are not a "gay pole". I may be wrong, but I
    > would have you down as a straight, with possible bisexual leanings, Danish
    left
    > -
    > wing intellectual, but you will have beefed up the stats of the Polish gays
    > anyway. The real ones were probably a vanishly small proportion of the
    > marchers, if any at all. Everyone else was just there to "stick up for them".


    I’m sorry you weren’t there with us – David. As I told you, I demonstrated for
    freedom of speech, which is a subject you also support – as far as I understand
    from your posts. But there were also many Polish gays – happy, good-looking and
    erotic boys and girls. I’m sure you would have enjoyed it. A good chance to sin
    a bit if only in your mind.

    Anyway – how was Copenhagen?
  • ja_karola 11.06.06, 17:38
    > usenetposts napisał:
    Everyone else was just there to "stick up for them".
    >
    hardenfelt napisał:
    > Anyway – how was Copenhagen?


    From what I saw on the Polonia news and the Gazeta videos, the atmosphere did
    turn out to be fun and peaceful, devoid of any hostile demonstrations, which
    already shows promise.

    Welcome back Dave! Did you have a good time in Copenhagen?
  • usenetposts 11.06.06, 18:22
    Michael wrote:


    > Anyway – how was Copenhagen?

    Well, it was ok, but different to what I expected.

    It seems to be not the easiest place to live in - not the centre at any rate,
    as thereis no place to park your car. There are however nine million bicycles
    there, it being neck and neck with Beijing in that respect. There is nothing to
    warn the visitor driving in from another part of Europe about the curious
    conventions regaring the cycle lanes in the city and the way they have priority
    to ride straight on even when you have a green light to turn right and have let
    the ones who were waiting there before pass already. Very odd. Very socialist.

    I couldn't understand why a lot of the cobbled streets were very sticky, and I
    hope you could shed some light on that. In some places they apeared to have
    received a coating of fresh tar.

    I was staying in this new First Hotel Skt Petri in Krystalgade just across from
    the Skt Petri Church, which was closed when I tried to visit it.

    The hotel was very dear, about 1800 DKK a night, and the food there was all
    tiny portions, but costing, like, the planet. It was quite tasty, but it was
    gone in an instant. I was hungry just about all the time I spent in your
    country and the first thing I did when I got back to Germany was eat. It was
    not helped by the fact that the restaurants in the centre all seemed to close
    around 11 - although you could drink after that but with no hope of finding
    something to eat, which is like crazy - or earlier. Despite this fact, they all
    had written on their doors that they were open till 24:00. Obviously a lie is
    either not a big deal in Copenhagen or is okay when everybody does it. I felt
    disappointed in the city from that regard.

    I also found it annoying that even when paying so much for so little I could
    not enjoy the little I had because of peopleexercising their right to make me
    smoke at table in Denmark - I understand the only remaining Scandywegian
    country to do this.

    On top of that, the only other city I have been to where the waitering is mor
    aggressive and impatient has to be Moscow.

    Architecturally,I found it interesting, and relatively but not entirely neat
    and free of graffiti. There were a number of tyhings worth looking at and
    photographing. The weather was good all the time we were there and the air
    clean.

    I enjoyed the Tivoli gardens - we were there at the same time as the Sugarbabes
    concert, but that if anything spoiled it for me as you cannot call that
    nonsense music. Certainly the scenery and the abundance of things going on made
    for a good atmosphere.

    If I can think of amything else to say I'll say it in another place as these
    articles cut off if they get too long.
    --
    - Uncle Davey's Homepage -
    :: Foreigners Living in Poland Forum
  • hardenfelt 11.06.06, 21:52
    usenetposts wrote:
    Well, it was ok, but different to what I expected.
    >
    > It seems to be not the easiest place to live in - not the centre at any rate,
    > as thereis no place to park your car. There are however nine million bicycles
    > there, it being neck and neck with Beijing in that respect. There is nothing
    to
    >
    > warn the visitor driving in from another part of Europe about the curious
    > conventions regaring the cycle lanes in the city and the way they have
    priority
    >
    > to ride straight on even when you have a green light to turn right and have
    let
    >
    > the ones who were waiting there before pass already.

    Well – this is why no sensible Dane would drive a car in the centre, unless he
    has some kind of infantile love affair with his car. Also it is not appropriate
    for a Dane to show that he has too much money (cars are taxed 300%, so if you
    drive a good car then you have a lot of money). A humble attitude to society
    will gain you points even in the highest circles of society, which is why
    several former Prime Ministers, Supreme court judges and zloty billionaires
    are frequently seen on bikes. If you go to Copenhagen again it would from a
    business point of view be sensible to buy an expensive city-bike. This will
    show that you care about ecology, your own health and don’t consider yourself
    to be superior. Everyone will respect your understanding of the Danish society.

    >>>>>Very odd. Very socialist.

    Denmark is a socialist society. A few extremists might propagate such views
    that the state should only be administrating 40% of GBP in stead of the present
    60%, but such views are considered eccentric and are not represented in
    parliament. The present Prime Minister was one of these eccentrics 20 years
    ago and even published a book titled “the minimal state”, but he quickly
    changed his mind. Anyway he probably didn’t wrote it himself, as no one
    suspects the Prime Minister of possessing such an intellectual capacity that he
    would be able to write a book on his own. But he can be both charming and
    charismatic, which is substantially more important in that job. It is virtually
    impossible to find people who don’t think the government should provide free
    medical care, universal old aged pensions, free higher education and 900 Euro
    grant for students.


    I couldn't understand why a lot of the cobbled streets were very sticky, and I
    > hope you could shed some light on that. In some places they apeared to have
    > received a coating of fresh tar.

    I’m not sure, but it might be part of the old-town immage.


    The hotel was very dear, about 1800 DKK a night, and the food there was all
    > tiny portions, but costing, like, the planet. It was quite tasty, but it was
    > gone in an instant. I was hungry just about all the time I spent in your
    > country and the first thing I did when I got back to Germany was eat. It was
    > not helped by the fact that the restaurants in the centre all seemed to close
    > around 11 - although you could drink after that but with no hope of finding
    > something to eat, which is like crazy - or earlier. Despite this fact, they
    all
    >
    > had written on their doors that they were open till 24:00. Obviously a lie is
    > either not a big deal in Copenhagen or is okay when everybody does it. I felt
    > disappointed in the city from that regard.

    Well – Copenhagen is expensive. It needs to be with those taxes and wages. But
    it works – people have the money to pay. If you are a big eater you might have
    a problem. Restaurant menus are based on the client ordering a four course meal
    if he wants a decent meal. But you can buy food everywhere, also in the drink
    bars. Often the meal there will be more filling than in the gourmet
    restaurants. The latter want to give you a culinary experience and don’t care
    much about your physiological needs.


    > I also found it annoying that even when paying so much for so little I could
    > not enjoy the little I had because of peopleexercising their right to make me
    > smoke at table in Denmark - I understand the only remaining Scandywegian
    > country to do this.

    If you look at it from the point of the smokers, if they pay so much for so
    little, the want to enjoy their meal with a cigarette afterwards. But this is
    changing.
  • ja_karola 12.06.06, 04:09

    You didn't paint a very rosy picture and it is not what I experienced at all
    when I was there last in the beginning of May. The whole idea of having wide
    bicycle trails along all major routes seems like a fantastic idea to me. I
    found that the possibility of just picking up a city bike for one's personal use
    and then dropping it off is an amazing concept.

    I didn't come across the cobble stone problem you wrote of even though I pretty
    much walked all over the city. People were friendly and everyone spoke English
    even the bus driver, which, in the so called "bilingual" Montreal society, is
    rather rare.

    I did notice however that many people smoke and I didn't see any "non-smoking"
    sections in the restaurants or coffee shops. I read some ridiculously high stats
    that apparently 2/3 of the entire population smoke. Also, prices are very high;
    my restaurant bill would have covered the meal of two people in Canada.

    I couldn't complain about the portions either even though I'm used to
    American-style Super Size meals. I was perfectly satisfied with two smorrebrods
    for a quick lunch.

    As for the general look of the city, I think it's quite charming and very clean
    compared to many others I've seen in my life.

    I may be biased however as I am about to move there so I seeked the best in
    everything. In all, I can't say there was anything that was a major turn off.
    I'm looking forward to living there.


    --
    Intolerance is evidence of impotence.
  • usenetposts 19.09.06, 20:41
    Well, Karola, I don't want you to think I didn't like anything about it, I just
    liked it less than I thought I would.

    Given the choice between living in Minsk, Belarus, where I was the last few
    days, and living in Copenhagen, I would certainly feel more at home in Minsk,
    dictator or no dictator.

    --
    - Uncle Davey's Homepage -
    :: Foreigners Living in Poland Forum
  • ja_karola 20.09.06, 23:56
    usenetposts napisał:

    > Well, Karola, I don't want you to think I didn't like anything about it, I
    just liked it less than I thought I would.

    > Given the choice between living in Minsk, Belarus, where I was the last few
    > days, and living in Copenhagen, I would certainly feel more at home in Minsk,
    > dictator or no dictator.

    I've never been to Minsk, but if such a well-travelled man says he would prefer
    it over Copenhagen, then I must see it for myself.
    I've been in Copenhagen for a little over a month now and I,m having the time of
    my life mostly because my colleagues and newly-made friends have a busy social
    life. I haven't met or rather bonded with any Danes yet and the difficulty to
    make friends with them is actually the #1 complaint from my expat co-workers.
    The city itself is just the right size....small enough to get everywhere by
    bicycle and not pass out. I haven't seen any of the poverty that is rampant in
    North America, everything looks pretty and the bicycle paths are almost as big
    as the roads themselves. People party excessively, work a mere 7.5 hours a day
    and get 30 days vacation, which, coming from Montreal, is absolutely fabulous!
    No complaints so far except maybe the fact that to buy anything decent to eat
    you have to stop by several stores. No selection whatsoever! Convenience
    stores in Mtl have more to offer than the supposed supermarkets here. And no
    decent liquor stores... I just don't understand how a country where it gets dark
    almost at 3:30 pm in winters do not have a wide network of liquour stores across
    the country. But aside from that, life is good...

    As for Minsk, perhaps I should visit.... my grandma's family has land in
    Belorussia they should reclaim but let's face it... they never will.

    I check the Forum sporadically... settling here has taken most of my free time,
    but I,m glad to see people are back from vacation. I haven't really had one
    this summer. It's been a wild couple of months for me!
    Cheers!
    K.


    --
    Intolerance is evidence of impotence
  • usenetposts 22.09.06, 00:39

    ja_karola napisała:

    > usenetposts napisał:
    >
    > > Well, Karola, I don't want you to think I didn't like anything about it,
    > I
    > just liked it less than I thought I would.
    >
    > > Given the choice between living in Minsk, Belarus, where I was the last f
    > ew
    > > days, and living in Copenhagen, I would certainly feel more at home in Mi
    > nsk,
    > > dictator or no dictator.
    >
    > I've never been to Minsk, but if such a well-travelled man says he would
    prefer
    > it over Copenhagen, then I must see it for myself.



    Here's my Minsk album on webshots.com

    travel.webshots.com/album/554279959KJTJpY
    --
    - Uncle Davey's Homepage -
    :: Foreigners Living in Poland Forum
  • ja_karola 25.09.06, 22:15
    usenetposts napisał:

    > Here's my Minsk album on webshots.com
    >
    > travel.webshots.com/album/554279959KJTJpY


    Beautiful pictures, beautiful place....but it strikes me as a bit cold (i.e., no
    t too many green spots; but I could be wrong).
    Quite surprising to see Lenin's statue still intact.

    Cheers!

    --
    Intolerance is evidence of impotence
  • ianek70 08.06.06, 16:33
    hardenfelt napisał:

    > This demonstration has nothing to do with gay rights – it’s about f
    > reedom of
    > speech. It is our chance to demonstrate against Poland’s run towards a
    > totalitarian clerical black hole. I expect to see everyone who is in favour
    > of free speech next Saturday – including David and other hardliners.

    Giertych is getting desperate.
    He's apparently calling for the event to be banned because of the Mundial.
    "There shouldn't be any riots in Warsaw during the World Cup," he gibbers
    inanely, presumably because on Saturday his boot-boy bum-chums will all be in
    Deutschland moaning about the price of beer and getting their heads kicked in
    by the polizei.
    Chop mo dupno fana, ino zaplecza ni mo. Pitaka totalna, jak siy tu godo na
    szpilu.

    wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,53600,3403290.html
  • korowiowek 08.06.06, 21:27
    Democracy and freedom of speech doesn't need to be supported in Poland - please
    don't exaggerate. These values are not in threat in Poland. Poland doesn't run
    towards a totalitarian clerical black hole - if you think so you don't know what
    you are talking about - since Kaczynski has been elected nobody was sentednced
    or fined becouse of what he thinks or believes - It happedend during
    Kwasniewski's presidency but nobody seemed to care then. I think you have a
    problem with freedom of speech, democracy and tolerance - You cannot stand
    people with totally different believes and views than yours - for you everybody
    who doesn't agree with your vision of the world is nazis - You may not like it
    but Kaczynski and Pis were choosen in democratic election by majority of Poles -
    so please respect it.
  • sobieski010 09.06.06, 08:31
    PIS was not elected in government by the majority of the Poles. This government
    exists because there is a coalition with a fascist ultrareligious party and a
    gang of crooks called Samoobrona.
    And freedom of opinion is threatened. The Media Council is doing its damnest
    best to suppress the free and liberal media.
    Radio Marija launches one antisemitic attack after another... no reaction. TVP
    shows one of the brothers K. singing out of tune and forgetting half the text of
    the national anthem...immediately a rebuke.
    And now PIS has asked the prosecutor general to investigate all journalists way
    back to 1989. If this is not a calculated attempt to intimidate the free press?
  • sobieski010 09.06.06, 08:47
    Source: WIK English Edition / Online press review 08.06.2006

    Although the idea of setting up an investigating committee dealing with media
    died out, politicians from PiS (Law and Justice) keep on scrutinising the media
    – as we read in "Gazeta Wyborcza" in the article "The Media-Hunt". The Minister
    of Justice demanded that all public prosecutors prepare a report from all legal
    proceedings against journalists starting from 1990. However, a special committee
    which is supposed to deal with such cases has not yet been appointed by the
    Sejm. Journalists have always been in conflict with authorities. Public
    prosecutors, being the authorities’ representatives, should not deal with
    charges against the media as they are not impartial. Civil law should be applied
    in legal proceedings against journalists. This should be a standard in an EU
    country . Poland seems to be an exception to this rule. Moreover, PiS is
    apparently preparing a real media hunt. Public prosecutors are going to take an
    active part in it.
  • hardenfelt 09.06.06, 09:08
    sobieski010 napisał:

    > PIS was not elected in government by the majority of the Poles. This
    government
    > exists because there is a coalition with a fascist ultrareligious party and a
    > gang of crooks called Samoobrona.
    > And freedom of opinion is threatened. The Media Council is doing its damnest
    > best to suppress the free and liberal media.
    > Radio Marija launches one antisemitic attack after another... no reaction. TVP
    > shows one of the brothers K. singing out of tune and forgetting half the text
    o
    > f
    > the national anthem...immediately a rebuke.
    > And now PIS has asked the prosecutor general to investigate all journalists
    way
    > back to 1989. If this is not a calculated attempt to intimidate the free
    press?

    I very much agree with the above. Besides PIS is not just a government. They
    want total power. The coalition with PO was dropped because they didn’t want PO
    to have insight into the work of the police and the intelligence organisations.

    Now we finally get rid of the incompetent civil servants and state company
    leaders from SLD. And what do we get in stead? – Incompetent civil servants and
    state company leaders from PIS and coalition partners. Nothing changed.
    Qualifications don’t matter – only political orthodoxy. They are all scared
    because they know they will loose their jobs if the speak out about political
    affairs or irregularities carried out by the new people.

    Giertych tries to control how the teachers shall teach in schools.

    They want to control the television and other media.

    They want to ban demonstrations because they don’t like gays. The only reason
    they don’t is that they are still afraid to attack a fundamental institution
    like the Constitutional Court.

    Kaczyńcy are warriors. They were good (though not completely trustworthy)
    soldiers when the people fought PRL. But they are much to aggressive to
    administrate a state. Its everything or nothing – completely without feeling
    for how to conduct a normal process of negotiating and compromising.
  • monii7 09.06.06, 10:47
    korowiowek
    I am not going to respect PiS, samoobrona and Kaczyński becouse they don't
    respect other people who have a difrent opinions.
    They want to have a total power in poland.
    They did't want to give a legal permit to the organizers of the Equality
    Parade , becouse they don't respect other ways of living.

    For them everybody should go to the churches every day. Everybody should have
    the married state and childrens...

    GOD why they told us how to live?
    They don't have any rights to direct our lives. Foolish, narrow minded people !

    I can go trough the street and scream what I want .. and I will.
    smile)
  • marimax 09.06.06, 12:51
    You can live any life you want as long as you don't force others to accept it
    as normal.
    You faggots are sick
  • sobieski010 09.06.06, 13:43
    Join the club of the tree-lovers. I think the right club for you.
  • sobieski010 09.06.06, 13:45
    Maybe interesting info for you

    Source: Wikipedia

    Maciej Giertych was born March 24, 1936 in Warsaw, to a notable politician of
    the National Democracy movement Jędrzej Giertych. In 1945 his family left Poland
    for Germany and finally settled in the United Kingdom. In 1954 Giertych passed
    his final school exams and entered Oxford University. He received the BA and MA
    in dendrology. Between 1958 and 1962 he studied at the University of Toronto,
    where he received his PhD for studies on tree physiology.

    In 1962 Giertych returned to Poland, where he completed his qualifications for
    an assistant professorship at the Institute of Dendrology of the Polish Academy
    of Sciences (PAN) in Kórnik near Poznań. In 1964 he married Antonina née Janik.
    In 1970 he received his Habilitation degree for his studies on forest genetics
    at the Agricultural University of Poznań. Since 1976 he has lectured at the
    Nicolaus Copernicus University of Toruń. He has also published more than 200
    works and studies, mostly on forest-related topics. The same year he also became
    a member of the Forest Sciences Committee of the PAN.

    In 1981 he received the grade of common professor. In 1986, three years after
    Martial law in Poland ended, he joined the advisory council (Rada Konsultacyjna)
    made up of opposition members and party officials set up by the leader of the
    communist authorities, Wojciech Jaruzelski. The council included several
    prominent Poles such as Marek Kotański, Krzystof Skubiszewski and Kazimierz Dejmek.

    In 1986 Giertych also became the Polish representative to the International
    Union of Forest Research Organisations. He supported strengthening ties with the
    Soviet Union in accordance with Roman Dmowski's ideology, while criticizing some
    dissidents for working too closely with western politicians, which he believed
    would jeopardize Poland's western borders.

    After the fall of communist rule in Poland in 1990 he returned to scientific
    work and between 1993 and 2000 was an advisor to the Ministry of Environmental
    Affairs. In 1990 he was a member of one of the minor political parties, the
    National Party of Poland (Stronnictwo Narodowe), which eventually entered the
    League of Polish Families (LPR) coalition.

    On September 23, 2001, Giertych was elected to the Polish Parliament from a
    Poznań constituency. On June 16, 2004, he became a Member of the European
    Parliament for the LPR. Together with the rest of his party he is a member of
    the Independence and Democracy faction.

    Giertych comes from a famous Polish nationalistic political family: he is the
    grandson of Franciszek Giertych and son of Jędrzej Giertych, and father of Roman
    Giertych, who currently leads the LPR.
    [edit]

    Views

    Maciej Giertych opposes lifting the ban on purchase of land in Poland by
    foreigners (due to fears of resurgence of German colonialism), homosexualism and
    moral relativism. He criticized and opposed Poland's entry into the European
    Union and supports closer ties with Eastern European countries, as well as
    defending Polish industry against what he regards as unfair practices of western
    companies. He is also against the proposed European Constitution.

    Giertych supports a version of creationism that attributes creation of universe,
    life and its further development to an act of God's will. In the tradition of
    medieval theology of the Scholastic school, he once calculated Noah's Ark
    capacity. He is an honorary member of the Daylight Origins Society, a British
    based creationist organisation.

    The Giertych family are full-blooded fascists from generations back.
    And this kind of guy is in charge of educating Polish children.
  • korowiowek 09.06.06, 17:13
    Perhaps you have forgotten but not so long ago Jerzy Wiatr -the main ideologost
    of polish communistic party was nominated as a secretary of education and I
    don't remamber seeing any of nowadays defenders of democracy outraged about
    thios fact.
  • korowiowek 09.06.06, 16:51
    wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,53600,3406040.html
    They have problem with freedom of speech - not we !!!
    I am not asking you to respect PiS and Kaczynski but the result of DEMOCRATIC
    election.
    As far as I know Parade has got permit finally,
    I guess they give you and your opinion the same amount respect like you give to
    them. Perhaps they don't respesc other way of living but nor do you. You call
    them foolish, narrow-minded people - this is tolerance according to you?You want
    to be respected and tolerated but you don't respect and tolerate them, you don't
    respect people who go to the church every day, listen to Radio Maryja and are
    not big fans of gay parade - Are the less people than you are? Are they not to
    be tolerated?You insult them becouse of their beliefs and opinions.
    Without familiy and children we simply will not survive biologicaly so don't be
    suprise that the state wants to support family rather then gay ralathionships.
    If you go through the street and scream and nobody put you behind the bars it
    means that we have freedom of speech and by doing it you will prove that you are
    wrong.

    with respect,
  • ianek70 09.06.06, 16:34
    korowiowek napisał:

    > Democracy and freedom of speech doesn't need to be supported in Poland

    These things need to be supported everywhere, whether they are threatened or
    not.

    > You may not like it
    > but Kaczynski and Pis were choosen in democratic election by majority of
    Poles

    Let me guess - you're another Polish patriot who's lived in the US for 20 years?
    A minority of Poles voted in the elections, and a minority of this minority
    voted for the PiSsers. You should visit Poland occasionally, then you'd
    understand what's happening here.
    Even someone as arrogant as Kaczynski would never dare claim that a majority of
    Poles voted for him.
  • korowiowek 09.06.06, 17:08


    > Let me guess - you're another Polish patriot who's lived in the US for 20 years
    > ?
    > A minority of Poles voted in the elections, and a minority of this minority
    > voted for the PiSsers. You should visit Poland occasionally, then you'd
    > understand what's happening here.
    > Even someone as arrogant as Kaczynski would never dare claim that a majority of
    >
    > Poles voted for him.

    Actually I am Pole who live temporarly in UK -I know what's going on in Poland I
    despise PiS, Kaczynski brothers, LPR, Samoobrona ets..I voted for Platforma...
    But...It was PiS who won and I respect the result of democratic election and my
    mistake, majority of polish voters not all polish citizens of course.
    I just don't like when people who doesn't agree with them call them nizis,
    compare them to Hitler and talking about threat to democracy and freedom of
    speech. It is just not fair!!So far, nobody in Poland is in prison becouse of
    his beliefs or opinions, I haven't heard about newspaper, radio station closed
    becouse government did't like it. Media are full of jokes about Kaczyskich's
    brothers - nobody feared to
    show on TV, humiliating for Kaczynski material where he was "singing" polish
    anthem - Do you remember how many tv channels(even private's ones), radio
    stations and papers showed drunk Kwasniewski in Charkow? Try to compare these
    two cases and think when freedom of speech was more in threat.
  • marimax 10.06.06, 00:28
    These eggheaded pinkos don't want to remember that their hero Kwasniewski was
    also elected by majority of minority voters.
  • ianek70 10.06.06, 19:04
    marimax napisał:

    > These eggheaded pinkos don't want to remember that their hero Kwasniewski was
    > also elected by majority of minority voters.

    Whose hero is Kwaśniewski, and do you actually know what an egghead is?
    Or even an egg?
  • ianek70 10.06.06, 19:01
    korowiowek napisał:

    > Media are full of jokes about Kaczyskich's
    > brothers - nobody feared to
    > show on TV, humiliating for Kaczynski material where he was "singing" polish
    > anthem - Do you remember how many tv channels(even private's ones), radio
    > stations and papers showed drunk Kwasniewski in Charkow? Try to compare these
    > two cases and think when freedom of speech was more in threat.

    You can't really compare these two incidents.
    Kwaśniewski maybe likes a drink, but he doesn't campaign for abstinence so
    there's no real problem there.
    But the Kaczyńskis have patriotism and conformism as a cornerstone of their
    ideology, so the fact that one of them doesn't even know the words to the
    national anthem is a sign of their disgusting hypocrisy and cynicism.
  • korowiowek 10.06.06, 22:39
    I agree with you about hipocricy and cynism but it has been always foundation of
    politic - if you want to achieve your goal you don't really care how to do it.
    Every party does it so why you are outraged now?

    But coming back to freedom of speech you haven't answered my question.When
    freedon of speech is more in threat - when media are afraid of showing some
    material embarressing the Head of the State or now? The public tv or radio
    didn't even mention on the news when Kwasniewski was staggering and gibbering
    during meeting with families of polish veterans in Charkow. Try imagine similar
    situation with Kaczynski.What would happen? what do you think?Freedom of speech
    is deffinitely in danger when jurnalists are afraid of writing and telling the
    truth - this is exactly what happened with Kwasniewski and Charkow and this is
    the problem not the fact that Kwasniewski got drunk.


    ianek70 napisał:

    > korowiowek napisał:
    >
    > > Media are full of jokes about Kaczyskich's
    > > brothers - nobody feared to
    > > show on TV, humiliating for Kaczynski material where he was "singing" pol
    > ish
    > > anthem - Do you remember how many tv channels(even private's ones), radio
    > > stations and papers showed drunk Kwasniewski in Charkow? Try to compare t
    > hese
    > > two cases and think when freedom of speech was more in threat.
    >
    > You can't really compare these two incidents.
    > Kwaśniewski maybe likes a drink, but he doesn't campaign for abstinence so
    > there's no real problem there.
    > But the Kaczyńskis have patriotism and conformism as a cornerstone of their
    > ideology, so the fact that one of them doesn't even know the words to the
    > national anthem is a sign of their disgusting hypocrisy and cynicism.
  • ejmarkow 11.06.06, 21:02
    I agree with what Korowiowek said. The media is obiously attacking the current
    government. It's called 'selective reporting', and discriminatory and biased to
    say the least. Keep in mind, the majority of the written press in Poland is
    leftist and liberal oriented, and is pro neo-conservative. Every chance
    possible, they will hound and tear the current government apart. When
    Kwasniewski was in office, he was 'socially acceptable' to his fellow neo-cons
    due to his non-religious beliefs, support for for anything provocative, and he
    often blatantly misrepresented facts to satisfy his peers and supporters, even
    if his views were historically inaccurate and falsely painted Poland in a
    negative light.
  • ejmarkow 11.06.06, 20:52
    ianek70 napisał:

    > You can't really compare these two incidents.

    Sure you can. Please keep in mind, A. Kwasniewski was 'the president of Poland'
    at the time he visited the city of Kharkov.

    "Kwasniewski...acknowledged that he drank alcohol before visiting the graves of
    Poles killed in 1940 by the NKVD, the KGB's predecessor, in Kharkov, Ukraine."

    newsfromrussia.com/world/2005/12/22/70326.html
    His position was much higher that of Jarosław Kaczyński, who is the leader of
    PiS, and not the president of Poland.

    > Kwaśniewski maybe likes a drink, but he doesn't campaign for abstinence so
    > there's no real problem there.

    Ianek70, being president of central Europe's largest country doesn't call for
    a 'campaign' for abstinence. He should act professionally everywhere he makes
    an appearance, that's how it is.
  • ianek70 11.06.06, 22:28
    ejmarkow napisał:


    > "Kwasniewski...acknowledged that he drank alcohol before visiting the graves
    of
    >
    > Poles killed in 1940 by the NKVD, the KGB's predecessor, in Kharkov, Ukraine."
    >
    >
    > His position was much higher that of Jarosław Kaczyński, who is the leader of
    > PiS, and not the president of Poland.
    >
    [...]
    > Ianek70, being president of central Europe's largest country doesn't call for
    > a 'campaign' for abstinence. He should act professionally everywhere he makes
    > an appearance, that's how it is.

    You're right.
    I haven't actually seen the footage, so I don't know how drunk he was.
    I still think, though, that in politics there is a fundamental difference
    between disrespectful drunken stupidity and blatant hypocrisy.
  • lucyferzpiekla 18.09.06, 21:55
    freedom of speech? bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhhhh.....
    and to allow existence of sites like: blodandhonour com ?????
    I think you should think more about it!
    of course freedom should be but....not for all...

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