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    CIS: Economic Assistance in Exchange for Political
    SolidarityCIS summit adopts statement supporting
    Russia?s stand in dispute with the USA on Afghanistan
    By: Nikolai Ulyanov30.11.2001, 19:04
    Full story: "CIS Leaders Meet in Moscow for Anniversary
    Summit"[printable version]
    More specific decisions usually emerge from bilateral
    presidential meetings that take place within summit
    frameworks. Nonetheless, at the given summit the
    Kremlin managed to talk the CIS leaders into passing a
    statement on Afghanistan that is very important for
    Russia.The main task facing the CIS - to avoid the
    "Yugoslav scenario" in the disintegration of the USSR -
    has been fulfilled, in the opinion of President
    Vladimir Putin. And all the leaders of the former
    Soviet republics agree with the Russian head of
    state.As concerns the prospects of integration in the
    Commonwealth environment, then one has to admit that
    they remain quite vague. At a press conference in the
    Kremlin today, Belarus leader Alexander Lukashenko
    quite justly remarked: "everyone understands the
    prospects of the development of the CIS in his own
    way."Many propose adopting the European Union as a
    model, he remarked. But those who make such proposals
    are personally against "moving towards the EU since
    this would be going backwards," Lukashenko pointed out.
    The Belarus president considers that while developing
    the CIS, it is necessary to draw upon the experience of
    the former Soviet Union with "its high degree of
    integration" that was based on a common economy.
    Moreover, Lukashenko emphasized that he was not calling
    for returning to the USSR, although he does regret its
    demise.From the point of view of Uzbek President Islam
    Karimov , the rate of integration within the CIS
    framework depends on the economic possibilities of one
    country - Russia. He said that he was very happy that
    Russia today is not what it was in 1991."It is with a
    feeling of satisfaction that we see how the Russian
    ruble is becoming "stronger,' and we would be very
    happy if the ruble became a means of payment within the
    CIS framework," the Uzbek leader pointed out. "The
    ruble is a reliable base for promoting trade turnover,
    and if the ruble and the economy of Russia becomes
    stronger, then all of us stand to benefit from this,"
    Karimov emphasized.Actually, this quite simple formula
    is the key for both the present and future existence of
    the CIS. The Commonwealth members, in spite of their
    different rates of economic growth, are still very
    interested in obtaining all kinds of economic
    preferences from Russia - from buying Russian oil, gas
    and electricity at lower than market prices to
    minimizing customs tariffs and other duties on the
    goods that these countries sell to Russia.And as long
    as this dependence is preserved, Russia is in a
    position to "politically" control the environment of
    the former USSR. Taking this reality into account, it
    is not in the least surprising at that such summits,
    the CIS leaders make statements and adopt decisions
    that are, by and large, of a political nature, and in
    the main, those that Russia needs at the present
    moment.To be sure, such statements and decisions also
    include a military component since the CIS, in spite of
    the difference of interests of its members, is a
    military-political alliance. Such decisions are related
    to the now successfully functioning Unified CIS Air
    Defense system, the Antiterrorist Center and the Rapid
    Deployment Force.In this respect, the present 10th
    Jubilee CIS summit was no exception. Russia has managed
    to persuade the CIS leaders to adopt a political
    document that it considers very important for itself -
    the statement on the situation in Afghanistan. First of
    all, it is important because in it the leaders of the
    CIS members, many of which play quite an independent
    and serious role in the antiterrorist operation in
    Afghanistan, have reaffirmed their agreement with two
    principles concerning the post-Taliban structure of
    that country and the international fight against
    terrorism in general - principles that Russia insists
    upon in its discussions with the USA. First, the fight
    of the world community against global terrorism must be
    conducted in accordance with international law, and
    first and foremost, the UN Charter. This paragraph in
    the statement becomes understandable in the light of
    rumors that the USA, after the operation in Afghanistan
    is over, intends to resort to armed aggression against
    Iraq and several other countries, using antiterrorist
    slogans as a pretext. If Russia is not especially
    interested in the fate of Somalia and other countries
    on America's "blacklist" then another war against Iraq
    will be extremely disadvantageous for Russia from the
    economic point of view. This then is the reason for the
    inclusion of such a paragraph in the statement adopted
    by the CIS leaders.The second important principle
    stipulates that no Taliban elements, no matter how
    "moderate" they may be, must be allowed to participate
    in the further management of Afghanistan. Russia has
    been insisting on this principle right from the very
    beginning of the antiterrorist operation in
    Afghanistan, whereas America's stand on this issue has
    been vacillating all the time due to pressure from
    Pakistan.Proceeding from the main principle underlying
    the very existence of the CIS, at the given summit
    Russia had to come out with some hopeful statement for
    promoting cooperation in the economic sphere. And
    Vladimir Putin did come out with such a statement.He
    spoke out in favor of creating a free trade zone in the
    CIS environment as soon as this was possible, but he
    emphasized that Russia, in this case, intended to
    uphold its national interests.Putin pointed out that an
    intensive dialogue was underway to create a free trade
    zone in the Commonwealth, and that practically all the
    questions on this matter had already been thrashed
    out.However, this problem had not yet been finalized
    with Tajikistan, Ukraine and Belarus, the Russian
    president remarked. Nonetheless, he did express hope
    that all these questions would soon be resolved.

    Misza, czy nie mowilem ze Putin to jeden z
    najzdolniejszych agentow KGB (obecnie FSB)?

    • > Misza, czy nie mowilem ze Putin to jeden z
      > najzdolniejszych agentow KGB (obecnie FSB)?

      Jak u nas mowia: W KGB [FSB] idioci nie zatrzymuja sie - wyrzucaja ;)) Mam wija
      polkownika FSB - zastepca dowodcy FSB m.Penza. Musze powiedziec ze malo w zyciu
      znalem podobnie madrych i wyksztalconych ludzi...

      Misza

    • Gość: Michal IP: *.tnt16.chi15.da.uu.net 01.12.01, 04:02
      Po dzisiejszych informacjach swiatowych wyglada tez na to ze Rosja i US maja
      jak narazie wylacznowsc w Afganistanie. Polnoc z Kabulem w rekach Northern
      Alliance i poludnie w rekach US (tak przynajmniej na to wyglada w chwili
      obecnej). Inni sojusznicy albo nie chca (z ich tylko znanych powodow) albo 2
      mocarstwa sie dogadaly na podzial wplywow. Kto na tym wyjdzie obronna reka czas
      niedlugo pokaze. Jesli Ameryka uwikla sie w konflikt z Irakiem to nie bedzie to
      korzystne dla koalicji US.
      Faktem jest ze potrzebna jest swiatu dwu-biegunowsc sil i wplywow. To tak jak z
      rownowaga w przyrodzie - zanik jednego gatunku zawsze ma negatywny wplyw na
      ewolucje i reszte.

      Pozdrawiam.
      • Gość: Zbyszek IP: *.CHCG.splitrock.net 01.12.01, 06:00
        Panie Michale, niech pan pojdzie na strone tego Russian Observer a dowie sie
        pan wielu ciekawych rzeczy. Observer daje przeglad wazniejszych gazet
        rosyjskich i naprawde waznych temtow.

        Rosyjska Pravda sie do niego nie umywa. Jest zwyklym szmatlawcem. Observer
        podaje bardzo ciekawe analizy. Polecam analize Rosyjskiej wspolpracy z Irakiem
        w swietle amerykanskiej presji na zaostrzenie sankcji i wprowadzenie
        miedzynarodowych inspektorow.

        Prosze tylko pomyslec, ze Rosja moze nagle odciac sily amerykanskie w
        Uzbekistanie od dostaw zywnosci, sprzetu i posilkow ludzkich. I co wtedy?
        Ciekawe. Moze Misza nam podpowie.
        • Gość: Misza IP: *.ic.ru 01.12.01, 11:28
          Gość portalu: Zbyszek napisał(a):
          > Prosze tylko pomyslec, ze Rosja moze nagle odciac sily amerykanskie w
          > Uzbekistanie od dostaw zywnosci, sprzetu i posilkow ludzkich. I co wtedy?
          > Ciekawe. Moze Misza nam podpowie.

          Niby po co to mamy robic ??? Nonsens. Juz nie mowiac ze nie Uzbekistan to
          suwerenne panstwo, a w Uzbekistanie nie mamy tyle wojsk co w Tadzykistanie (101
          dywizja)... Troche zagalopowalwes sie ;-)))
          Misza

          • Gość: JOrl IP: *.dip.t-dialin.net 02.12.01, 21:36
            Gość portalu: Misza napisał(a):

            > Gość portalu: Zbyszek napisał(a):
            > > Prosze tylko pomyslec, ze Rosja moze nagle odciac sily amerykanskie w
            > > Uzbekistanie od dostaw zywnosci, sprzetu i posilkow ludzkich. I co wtedy?
            > > Ciekawe. Moze Misza nam podpowie.
            >
            > Niby po co to mamy robic ??? Nonsens. Juz nie mowiac ze nie Uzbekistan to
            > suwerenne panstwo, a w Uzbekistanie nie mamy tyle wojsk co w Tadzykistanie (101
            >
            > dywizja)... Troche zagalopowalwes sie ;-)))
            > Misza
            >
            Zaraz, zaraz. A ktoredy amerykanie dolatuja do Uzbekistanu? Prosto z kosmosu?
            Jakos dotad nie slyszalem jaka trasa leca te samoloty do Uzbekistanu i
            Tadzykistanu. A to mnie ciekawi. Moze bys Misza to opowiedzal. Mape jakas masz.
            Ja tez. Jak powiesz, to sobie zaraz popatrze. Czekam z niecierpliwoscia na Twoja
            odpowiedz. A tak wogole, chyba opowiadales ze od 28.11.2001 (?) nie bedziesz juz
            na tym forum. I jak ktos bedzie sie podpisywal Misza to nie ty. Mozesz to jakos
            sprostowac?
            Pozdrowienia

            • Gość: Misza IP: 195.161.174.* 02.12.01, 22:05
              Gość portalu: JOrl napisał(a):

              ...nie bedziem mi na forum do tego momentu az cos powaznego w swiecie nie
              wydarzy. A tutaj Gruzja, kapitulacja czeczenskich terrorystow, Rosja z NATO
              itd... Pomyslalem ze sa to powazne powody do dyskusji ;-)))

              > Zaraz, zaraz. A ktoredy amerykanie dolatuja do Uzbekistanu?
              > Prosto z kosmosu?
              Oto jeden z wariantow: Turcja, Azerbajdzan, Kazachstan, Uzbekistan...
              Nie ma problemow. I do tego jak mowilem, po co Rosji przeszkadzac USA w tym
              rejonie ??? Dzis skonczyli sie wspolne cwiczenia Armii USA i RF w Tadzykistanie.
              Wg. scenariuszu pilot USAF jest zestrzelony nad Afganem i spada na terr.
              Tadzyklistanu, a nasze sily szybkiego reagowania go szukaja i ratuja. Cwiczenia
              skonczyli sie pomyslnie - pilot znaleziony i "uratowany"...

              Misza
              ,
              > Jakos dotad nie slyszalem jaka trasa leca te samoloty do Uzbekistanu i
              > Tadzykistanu. A to mnie ciekawi. Moze bys Misza to opowiedzal. Mape jakas masz.
              > Ja tez. Jak powiesz, to sobie zaraz popatrze. Czekam z niecierpliwoscia na
              > Twoja
              > odpowiedz. A tak wogole, chyba opowiadales ze od 28.11.2001 (?) nie bedziesz ju
              > z
              > na tym forum. I jak ktos bedzie sie podpisywal Misza to nie ty. Mozesz to jakos
              >
              > sprostowac?
              > Pozdrowienia
              >

    • Gość: zyx IP: *.rdu.bellsouth.net 01.12.01, 06:39
      Putin moze byc zdolnym graczem. ale gdzie sa jego asy?
      biedak urodzil sie w rosji - panstwie ktore grozne bylo dla dziczy podobnej do siebie. zachod raczej nie
      potrzebowal wiele, aby trzymac ich w ryzach. czasami, niestey, wyslugiwal sie w tym polska. nigdy nie byl
      fizycznie przez rosje zagrozony. Popatrz na potencjal USA i jej aliantow wobec zasobow Rosji.
      Asymetryczne, nie?
      Gość portalu: Zbyszek napisał(a):

      > <a href="www.russianobserver.com/stories/2001/11/29/1007026841/100713621
      > 0.html">www.russianobserver.com/stories/2001/11/29/1007026841/1007136210.html</
      > a>
      >
      >
      > CIS: Economic Assistance in Exchange for Political
      > SolidarityCIS summit adopts statement supporting
      > Russia?s stand in dispute with the USA on Afghanistan
      > By: Nikolai Ulyanov30.11.2001, 19:04
      > Full story: "CIS Leaders Meet in Moscow for Anniversary
      > Summit"[printable version]
      > More specific decisions usually emerge from bilateral
      > presidential meetings that take place within summit
      > frameworks. Nonetheless, at the given summit the
      > Kremlin managed to talk the CIS leaders into passing a
      > statement on Afghanistan that is very important for
      > Russia.The main task facing the CIS - to avoid the
      > "Yugoslav scenario" in the disintegration of the USSR -
      > has been fulfilled, in the opinion of President
      > Vladimir Putin. And all the leaders of the former
      > Soviet republics agree with the Russian head of
      > state.As concerns the prospects of integration in the
      > Commonwealth environment, then one has to admit that
      > they remain quite vague. At a press conference in the
      > Kremlin today, Belarus leader Alexander Lukashenko
      > quite justly remarked: "everyone understands the
      > prospects of the development of the CIS in his own
      > way."Many propose adopting the European Union as a
      > model, he remarked. But those who make such proposals
      > are personally against "moving towards the EU since
      > this would be going backwards," Lukashenko pointed out.
      > The Belarus president considers that while developing
      > the CIS, it is necessary to draw upon the experience of
      > the former Soviet Union with "its high degree of
      > integration" that was based on a common economy.
      > Moreover, Lukashenko emphasized that he was not calling
      > for returning to the USSR, although he does regret its
      > demise.From the point of view of Uzbek President Islam
      > Karimov , the rate of integration within the CIS
      > framework depends on the economic possibilities of one
      > country - Russia. He said that he was very happy that
      > Russia today is not what it was in 1991."It is with a
      > feeling of satisfaction that we see how the Russian
      > ruble is becoming "stronger,' and we would be very
      > happy if the ruble became a means of payment within the
      > CIS framework," the Uzbek leader pointed out. "The
      > ruble is a reliable base for promoting trade turnover,
      > and if the ruble and the economy of Russia becomes
      > stronger, then all of us stand to benefit from this,"
      > Karimov emphasized.Actually, this quite simple formula
      > is the key for both the present and future existence of
      > the CIS. The Commonwealth members, in spite of their
      > different rates of economic growth, are still very
      > interested in obtaining all kinds of economic
      > preferences from Russia - from buying Russian oil, gas
      > and electricity at lower than market prices to
      > minimizing customs tariffs and other duties on the
      > goods that these countries sell to Russia.And as long
      > as this dependence is preserved, Russia is in a
      > position to "politically" control the environment of
      > the former USSR. Taking this reality into account, it
      > is not in the least surprising at that such summits,
      > the CIS leaders make statements and adopt decisions
      > that are, by and large, of a political nature, and in
      > the main, those that Russia needs at the present
      > moment.To be sure, such statements and decisions also
      > include a military component since the CIS, in spite of
      > the difference of interests of its members, is a
      > military-political alliance. Such decisions are related
      > to the now successfully functioning Unified CIS Air
      > Defense system, the Antiterrorist Center and the Rapid
      > Deployment Force.In this respect, the present 10th
      > Jubilee CIS summit was no exception. Russia has managed
      > to persuade the CIS leaders to adopt a political
      > document that it considers very important for itself -
      > the statement on the situation in Afghanistan. First of
      > all, it is important because in it the leaders of the
      > CIS members, many of which play quite an independent
      > and serious role in the antiterrorist operation in
      > Afghanistan, have reaffirmed their agreement with two
      > principles concerning the post-Taliban structure of
      > that country and the international fight against
      > terrorism in general - principles that Russia insists
      > upon in its discussions with the USA. First, the fight
      > of the world community against global terrorism must be
      > conducted in accordance with international law, and
      > first and foremost, the UN Charter. This paragraph in
      > the statement becomes understandable in the light of
      > rumors that the USA, after the operation in Afghanistan
      > is over, intends to resort to armed aggression against
      > Iraq and several other countries, using antiterrorist
      > slogans as a pretext. If Russia is not especially
      > interested in the fate of Somalia and other countries
      > on America's "blacklist" then another war against Iraq
      > will be extremely disadvantageous for Russia from the
      > economic point of view. This then is the reason for the
      > inclusion of such a paragraph in the statement adopted
      > by the CIS leaders.The second important principle
      > stipulates that no Taliban elements, no matter how
      > "moderate" they may be, must be allowed to participate
      > in the further management of Afghanistan. Russia has
      > been insisting on this principle right from the very
      > beginning of the antiterrorist operation in
      > Afghanistan, whereas America's stand on this issue has
      > been vacillating all the time due to pressure from
      > Pakistan.Proceeding from the main principle underlying
      > the very existence of the CIS, at the given summit
      > Russia had to come out with some hopeful statement for
      > promoting cooperation in the economic sphere. And
      > Vladimir Putin did come out with such a statement.He
      > spoke out in favor of creating a free trade zone in the
      > CIS environment as soon as this was possible, but he
      > emphasized that Russia, in this case, intended to
      > uphold its national interests.Putin pointed out that an
      > intensive dialogue was underway to create a free trade
      > zone in the Commonwealth, and that practically all the
      > questions on this matter had already been thrashed
      > out.However, this problem had not yet been finalized
      > with Tajikistan, Ukraine and Belarus, the Russian
      > president remarked. Nonetheless, he did express hope
      > that all these questions would soon be resolved.
      >
      > Misza, czy nie mowilem ze Putin to jeden z
      > najzdolniejszych agentow KGB (obecnie FSB)?
      >

      • Gość: Misza IP: *.ic.ru 01.12.01, 11:36
        Gość portalu: zyx napisał(a):
        ...Lenin w 1918 i Stalin w 1933. Jezeli bedzie na rowni tym wielkim (!!!) wodzam,
        to moze "zrobic z gowna cukierek" (c) Russia ;)))

        > Putin moze byc zdolnym graczem. ale gdzie sa jego asy?
        > biedak urodzil sie w rosji - panstwie ktore grozne bylo dla dziczy podobnej do
        > siebie.

        No nie mowil bym tak ogolnie. Pamietasz ile razy w USA zesrali sie ze strachu ze
        Rosja ich dopadnie ? :-)))) Nawet gdy w Seattle pare lat temu bylo trzesienie
        ziemi polowa ludzi pomyslala ze to napad Rosjan :-D

        > zachod raczej nie
        > potrzebowal wiele, aby trzymac ich w ryzach. czasami, niestey, wyslugiwal sie w
        > tym polska.

        A Rosja i nie probowala podbic USA, a Niemcy, Polske, Francje, Wlochy, Turcje,
        Grecje, Jugoslawie, Czechy, Finlandje, Baltyke, Austrie itd. podbijali po kilka
        razy - to juz dla Ciebie nie zachod ? :))) USA powstala tylko 200 lat temu (a
        propo Alaska nasza byla, ale sprzedalismy, bo nie byla nam potrzebna) i gdyby
        wowczas chcielibysmy ja zajac, to zrobili by to.

        > nigdy nie byl
        > fizycznie przez rosje zagrozony.

        Patrz wyzej "historyku" ;)))

        > Popatrz na potencjal USA i jej aliantow wobec
        > zasobow Rosji.
        > Asymetryczne, nie?

        Jak mowilem historia kolem sie toczy - pozyjemy- zobaczymy...

        Misza
        • Gość: Zbyszek IP: *.CHCG.splitrock.net 02.12.01, 05:31
          Gość portalu: Misza napisał(a):

          > > Popatrz na potencjal USA i jej aliantow wobec
          > > zasobow Rosji.
          > > Asymetryczne, nie?
          >
          > Jak mowilem historia kolem sie toczy - pozyjemy- zobaczymy...
          >
          > Misza

          Misza, nie wiem czy zrozumiesz ten zart bo to jest gra slow ale ja mowie ze:

          HISTORIA KALEM SIE TUCZY".

    • Gość: Jurek IP: 193.188.161.* 01.12.01, 15:38
      Artykul (czesc) z The Times. Moze tak byc, ze ten drugi biegun to caly swiat
      minus USA. A to dzieki ignoranckiej i aroganckiej polityce decydentow w
      Waszyngtonie.

      <<< Europeans, Arabs: Back off Iraq

      The uphill battle for allies in any new confrontation with Saddam Hussein was
      underlined by the reaction of key European coalition partners. Britain's
      Guardian reports that Prime Minister Tony Blair this week joined with French
      President Jacques Chirac in demanding "incontrovertible evidence" of Iraqi
      complicity in the September 11 attacks before even considering a strike on
      Iraq. Chirac expressed concern that the Bush administration was weighing a
      course of action that "would have very serious implications for the
      international struggle against terrorism."

      Germany's Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder joined the chorus of concern, with the
      Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung reporting that the German leader had warned
      Washington "that an attack on Iraq could crack Mr. Bush's international anti-
      terror coalition." Schroeder added that "Germany itself would deploy troops to
      an Iraqi mission under one condition — that the Iraqi government approved the
      mission." In other words, not unless they're invited in by Saddam.

      By week's end, Washington appears to have heard the panic signals. "Powell
      Reassures Arabs No Iraq," read a headline in Friday's Jordan Times. "After a
      meeting with Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Maher… (Secretary of State Colin)
      Powell said he understood and was taking into consideration Arab objections to
      US military action against Iraq. 'For now, this is nothing for us to disagree
      on,' Powell said." Still, even that "for now" qualifier has Arab leaders
      fearing a destabilizing domestic backlash. >>>

    • Gość: Wlodek IP: 10.131.129.* 02.12.01, 08:08
      Re: Dwubiegunowy Swiat - nareszcie.


      A kiedy było mniej biegunów????????
      • Gość: kanuk IP: *.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 02.12.01, 08:34

        In October 2000, the Kitty Hawk was buzzed by two Russian jet aircraft. The
        news services all reported "Kitty Hawk buzzed by Russians." In fact, the two
        jet aircraft were Russian built advanced fighter aircraft but were being flown
        by Chinese pilots in the South China Sea.
        Last year the Chinese received purchase of a number of superior Sukhoi-23
        jet fighters from Russia. In 1994 the Russians, sorely in need of money, had
        offered to sell a prototype advanced technology SU-23 to America. The Clinton
        Administration refused the offer. The Russians then sold the new high-tech jets
        to the Chinese.
        The only advanced aircraft equivalent to the SU-23 is the American F-22,
        but it still is only a pipe dream languishing on the drawing boards, and many
        years away from even a prototype.
        The Russian designed SU-23 is vastly superior to the decades old Navy F-18
        carrier jet fighter. To fly and dog-fight in an F-18 the "Top-Ace trained"
        American pilot must use old "Microsoft-Flight-Simulator" type technology,
        zigzagging through the sky and aiming his plane at the "enemy" and locking on
        to fire missiles.
        In the new SU-23 the Chinese pilot merely needs to run on auto-cruise
        control and using the new "helmet-aiming device" he simply looks in the
        direction of the "enemy" and can quickly fire six missiles in many directions.
        Thus the Chinese pilot can quickly down up to six old-tech U.S. Navy F-18's
        in a matter of seconds, all the while, he is flying straight and level, and
        like Jiang Zamin, grinning from ear to ear. Now you know why the carrier Kitty
        Hawk last October never launched any planes to intercept the new Chinese SU-
        23s.
        For nearly 40 minutes the new Chinese SU-23s flew low repeatedly over the
        deck of the Kitty Hawk and shortly after tauntingly emailed photos by Internet
        of the scrambling chaos on the carrier deck. But the Kitty Hawk never launched
        any aircraft. Several weeks ago the Navy was pointedly asked about this strange
        incident.
        When asked where the emailed photos came from, the Navy answered, "Go ask
        the Russians." When asked in numerous differently worded questions why the
        Kitty Hawk commander had never ordered any fighters to take off, the inanely
        repeated non-response was the Navy equivalent of "no comment."
        The simple truth is no sane Navy captain would ever order his F-18 pilots
        to go up against even a single SU-23. That is why the Kitty Hawk is quickly
        leaving the South China Sea area and heading for "safer" territory, and why
        there will be no U.S. fighter escorts for any future reconnaissance aircraft in
        the western Pacific region.
        Several days ago, following the jubilant release of the 24 Americans
        detained in China, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld reported how it was actually
        the fault of the Chinese which caused the downing of the Chinese F-8 fighter
        and the subsequent detaining of the American EP-3E recon plane.
        He failed to point out, as reported here, the technique of using one
        fighter to tuck under the wing of a US recon plane, to prevent it from
        returning to its home base, while a second fighter was behind with missiles
        locked on, ready to either shoot down or force down the US plane, is an old
        ploy used by the North Koreans and Chinese since the mid-1950's.
        This ploy has resulted in the loss of many American planes, American
        technology and American lives. He also failed to announce to America's friends
        and allies, such as South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and down to Fiji, Samoa, New
        Zealand, Australia and even Hawaii that the U.S. is swiftly moving out of the
        Pacific region and leaving them all to fend for themselves.
        During the past two weeks of the so-called "stand-off in China" two events
        occurred which are still yet unexplained. While American attention was diverted
        to watching what would happen to the 24 US airmen detained in China, Premier
        Jiang Zamin was quietly moving through 12 countries in the Americas and tying
        up and cementing military agreements to provide the Chinese "Advanced Forward"
        military programs throughout most of South America and Cuba.
        The same advanced technology which has the Kitty Hawk running for cover is
        now in Cuba and most of South America. The U.S. Pentagon will soon find itself
        defending America's bays, rivers, harbors and inlets and maybe out to the 12
        mile limit.
        The other unreported 'non-event' was that Congress was in Easter recess
        during the "Chinese standoff" and now today they are back in session. While the
        535 congress men and women were back home kvetching for votes, raising campaign
        money or simply lolling in the idyll of the lost American dream, the events of
        the world have passed them by. Like choosing from an old Chinese menu, "pick
        one from column A or one from column B", the members of congress now need to
        face the grim reality of either choosing, (A) for the last 8 years they have
        been lied to, or (B) they themselves are liars. Pick one.



        • Gość: Misza IP: *.aksay.donpac.ru 02.12.01, 10:07
          Ja wiem dwie rzeczy:
          1) My sprzedalismy Chinom licenzje na produkowanie Su-27
          2) W zeszlym roku dwa nasze Su-27 (Rosyjskie z pilotami Rosjanami) zrobili rajd
          nad pokladem amowskiego lotniskowca.

          O Su-23 i Chinskich pilotach nic nie slyszalem...
          Misza
          • Gość: kanuk IP: *.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 02.12.01, 17:46
            liczylem na twoje wiadomosci, Misza. a teraz widac, ze to niepewna sprawa, tak?
            ja dostalem to od kolegi , sam bym tego nie znalazl bo mam za malo czasu,
            pracuje. ale czyta sie jak jakas powiesc sensacyjna , nie?
          • Gość: JOrl IP: *.dip.t-dialin.net 02.12.01, 20:18
            Gość portalu: Misza napisał(a):

            > 2) W zeszlym roku dwa nasze Su-27 (Rosyjskie z pilotami Rosjanami) zrobili rajd
            >
            > nad pokladem amowskiego lotniskowca.
            Ja pamietam, ze to byly 2 ale Su24 a nie Su27. Myslalem, ze to bylo zwiazane z
            ich wiekszym wyposazeniem w elektronike zaklocajaca wykrycie. Dlatego sie to im
            udalo niepostrzezenie nad tym lotniskowcem przeleciec.
            Pozdrowienia


        • Gość: Lombat IP: *.*.*.* 03.12.01, 00:30
          Sznowny Panie Kanuk

          Samoloty Su - 23'ci w wersji morskiej znane sa od ponad 25 lat, dlaczego wiec nazywac je
          wielka nowoscia. Byly nawet w lotnictwie PRL (!). Pragne zwrocic uwage na samolot
          Su - 27'my jego nastepca w wersji podstawowej oraz w wersjach pochodnych.
          Prawdziwym zas przebojem, ktory zobaczylem w mediach w zeszlym roku jest Su - 31'szy.
          Druga sprawa to szkolenie pilotow, w starym systemie, byc moze jeszcze stosowanym
          w Rosji z CALEJ mlodziezy wybierano najodpowiedniejszych, zas w Stanach ze studentow
          niektorych wydzialow uniwersytetow.

          Z Powazaniem
          • Gość: Misza IP: 195.161.174.* 03.12.01, 00:50
            Gość portalu: Lombat napisał(a):

            Takiego samolotu w przyrodzie nie ma ;-)) SA Su22 i Su24. Polska ma akurat okolo
            50 Su22. Jezeli ktos chce dowiedziec sie WSZYSTKIEGO o samolotach - szczegolnie
            naszych - zajrzcie na airbase.uka.ru - jest tam wiele informacji w
            Englishe SUPER!!! Zobaczycie tam samoloty, ktore sa tylko w prototypowych
            ekzemplarach!


            Pozdrawiam
            Misza



            > Sznowny Panie Kanuk
            >
            > Samoloty Su - 23'ci w wersji morskiej znane sa od ponad 25 lat, dlaczego wiec n
            > azywac je
            > wielka nowoscia. Byly nawet w lotnictwie PRL (!). Pragne zwrocic uwage na samol
            > ot
            > Su - 27'my jego nastepca w wersji podstawowej oraz w wersjach pochodnych.
            > Prawdziwym zas przebojem, ktory zobaczylem w mediach w zeszlym roku jest Su - 3
            > 1'szy.
            > Druga sprawa to szkolenie pilotow, w starym systemie, byc moze jeszcze stosowan
            > ym
            > w Rosji z CALEJ mlodziezy wybierano najodpowiedniejszych, zas w Stanach ze stu
            > dentow
            > niektorych wydzialow uniwersytetow.
            >
            > Z Powazaniem

            • Gość: Misza IP: *.aksay.donpac.ru 03.12.01, 08:49
              Gość portalu: Misza napisał(a):

              U nas w ZSRR/Rosji nazwy samolotow ida po kolei. Nie maze byc 2 modelu samoloty o
              takim samym numerze. Mig-19,21,23,25,29,31 - Su22,24,27,30,33,35,39, Jak38,40,41
              Podobnie zrobiono w USA. F-14,15,16,18,22... Wiec rozumiem ze chodzilo Miga23.
              Niezly samilocik - w swoich czasach byl jednym z najlepszych w swiecie - gdy
              bylem na tygodniowych szkoleniach w kaczinskiej aviaszkole (jest najstarsza
              szkola w Rosji- powstala w 1921 roku), to oblazilwm i "sterowalem" (na ziemi ;))
              wszystkie samoloty od Mig19 do Miga 29. Mig 23 jest troche niewygodny fotel w
              kabinie (porownujac do Mig29), ale zmodernizowana wersja jest juz lepsza... ;)

              Pozdrawiam
              Misza

              > Gość portalu: Lombat napisał(a):
              >
              > Takiego samolotu w przyrodzie nie ma ;-)) SA Su22 i Su24. Polska ma akurat okol
              > o
              > 50 Su22. Jezeli ktos chce dowiedziec sie WSZYSTKIEGO o samolotach - szczegolnie
              >
              > naszych - zajrzcie na airbase.uka.ru - jest
              > tam wiele informacji w
              > Englishe SUPER!!! Zobaczycie tam samoloty, ktore sa tylko w prototypowych
              > ekzemplarach!
              >
              >
              > Pozdrawiam
              > Misza
              >
              >
              >
              > > Sznowny Panie Kanuk
              > >
              > > Samoloty Su - 23'ci w wersji morskiej znane sa od ponad 25 lat, dlaczego w
              > iec n
              > > azywac je
              > > wielka nowoscia. Byly nawet w lotnictwie PRL (!). Pragne zwrocic uwage na
              > samol
              > > ot
              > > Su - 27'my jego nastepca w wersji podstawowej oraz w wersjach pochodnych.
              > > Prawdziwym zas przebojem, ktory zobaczylem w mediach w zeszlym roku jest S
              > u - 3
              > > 1'szy.
              > > Druga sprawa to szkolenie pilotow, w starym systemie, byc moze jeszcze sto
              > sowan
              > > ym
              > > w Rosji z CALEJ mlodziezy wybierano najodpowiedniejszych, zas w Stanach z
              > e stu
              > > dentow
              > > niektorych wydzialow uniwersytetow.
              > >
              > > Z Powazaniem
              >

          • Gość: kanuk IP: *.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 03.12.01, 05:55
            szanowny panie Lombat, dziekuje za slowo. ja nic nie twierdzilem , ktory
            samolot istnieje a ktory nie. zacytowalem tekst otrzymany od kolegi. o ile mi
            wiadomo to jednym z najnowoczesniejszych samolotow na swiecie jest Su-39 i
            mozna sobie bylo do niedawna zobaczyc na stronie www.artbell.com (a moze
            jeszcze mozna?) jakie ma mozliwosci manewrowe. mam nadzieje, ze Misza rowniez
            dalej bedzie informowal na ten interesujacy temat. pozdrawiam. kanuk.
      • Gość: Zbyszek IP: *.CHCG.splitrock.net 02.12.01, 20:10
        Gość portalu: Wlodek napisał(a):

        > Re: Dwubiegunowy Swiat - nareszcie.
        >
        > A kiedy było mniej biegunów????????

        Nie wiem dlaczego pytasz kiedy bylo mniej?
        Mnie chodzi o to ze bylo wiecej. Kiedys byly biegony geograficzne, magnetyczne i
        polityczne. A teraz sa tylko dwa. Zgadnij jakie?

        • Gość: Paul IP: *.proxy.aol.com 03.12.01, 00:52
          Gość portalu: Zbyszek napisał(a):

          > Gość portalu: Wlodek napisał(a):
          >
          > > Re: Dwubiegunowy Swiat - nareszcie.
          > >
          > > A kiedy było mniej biegunów????????
          >
          > Nie wiem dlaczego pytasz kiedy bylo mniej?
          > Mnie chodzi o to ze bylo wiecej. Kiedys byly biegony geograficzne, magnetyczne
          > i
          > polityczne. A teraz sa tylko dwa. Zgadnij jakie?
          Dwa bieguny twoich poldupkow.
          Paul
          • Gość: Wlodek IP: 10.131.129.* 03.12.01, 06:28
            Gość portalu: Paul napisał(a):

            > Gość portalu: Zbyszek napisał(a):
            >
            > > Gość portalu: Wlodek napisał(a):
            > >
            > > > Re: Dwubiegunowy Swiat - nareszcie.
            > > >
            > > > A kiedy było mniej biegunów????????
            > >
            > > Nie wiem dlaczego pytasz kiedy bylo mniej?
            > > Mnie chodzi o to ze bylo wiecej. Kiedys byly biegony geograficzne, magnety
            > czne
            > > i
            > > polityczne. A teraz sa tylko dwa. Zgadnij jakie?
            > Dwa bieguny twoich poldupkow.
            > Paul


            Zbych to po prostu prosty człowiek.... Kilka biegunów i już się gubi.
            • Gość: Jurek IP: 193.188.161.* 03.12.01, 09:34
              Jak zwykle, prymitywy moga dac tylko prymitywna i sprosna odpowiedz, adekwatna
              do ich poziomu umyslowego.

              Na takim poziomie umyslowym wielbicieli, spoczywa potega "walki o serca i
              umysly", czyli propagandy sukcesu Ameryki.

              A nie mozna odpowiedziec normalnie, nawet jak sie nie zgadzasz z argumentami?

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