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Abu Ghraib - america unmasked

11.05.04, 07:07
Last January, an online magazine, Corrections.com, run an interview with Mr
Lane Mc Cotter who proudly announced that the Iraqi prison was "the only
place we agreed as a team was truly closest to an American prison".

Who is Mc Cotter? He was head of Department of Corrections in Utah when, in
1997, a prisoner named Michael Valent, who was diagnosed with schizofrenia,
died after being tied to a 'restraining chair' for sixteen hours. The
American Civil Liberties Union executive director admitted that the immediate
thought that came to her mind upon seeing the chair was 'torture'. Mc Cotter
resigned in the subsequent scandal and went into the private sector of
prisons only to... yep, you guessed - to reappear in Abu Ghraib amidst the
recent torture horror.
I repeat what he said about the place: "the only place we agreed as a team
was truly closest to an American prison".

Abu Ghraib is not an abberration. It is an American norm. And I am pretty
sure that there are more of the similarly sickening revelations to come. From
other places, other countries.

There was a time when the popular saying had it that god created the earth
and humans but had to create the British to run the bloody place.
Today we have the Amercans doing god's job.

I am beginning to hate that guy.
Edytor zaawansowany
  • chickenshorts 11.05.04, 14:07
    Feel it my duty to share this with you:

    riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
  • brookie 11.05.04, 14:47
    There will always be crazy fucks around there and around any place. People can
    turn into the monsters depending on the script life writes.
  • erwas 11.05.04, 19:45
    > Abu Ghraib is not an abberration. It is an American norm.

    that is correct.
    what is happening in Iraqi prisons is not different from how prisons are run in
    the US.
    rape and sexual humiliation are standard procedures with the details of what
    was done to Iraqi prisoners (down to male inmates being forced to wear womens'
    underwear) identical.
    Lane Mc Cotter also left his mark on Santa Fe, New Mexico, near where I live.
    There was an investigation of his procedures and activities, but as far as I
    remember, nothing came of it.
    what better person to bring American Values to to the new fiefdoms of the
    Empire.

  • chickenshorts 11.05.04, 22:32
    erwas napisał:

    > what better person to bring American Values to to the new fiefdoms of the
    > Empire.

    Well, there is another angle to the "American Values" and it's called the
    Silver Ring Thing... Something to do with purity or abstinence before marriage,
    and they are coming to Britain soon.

    What is amazing is the blessing of the same oil spiv, your president. George
    Bush has given It seven hundred grand so far as part of his program of
    replacing the sex education with Victorian (American?) values...

    www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1213875,00.html

  • erwas 12.05.04, 05:57
    mr.shorts,

    you must have noticed, I do hope, that I have discontinued our dialogue in
    the "where ar(t)e thou" thread. you need to tame your urges, still your foolish
    heart, and learn how to lead a moral life.

    as far as the seat of civilization goes let us work on the freakin' belka
    blurring the vision in our own eyes before worrying overly about the sty in
    your foes (to paraphrase Our Lord, Jesus Christ).

    far from being the insensitive World Thug the UK nevertheless clings on to many
    of the characteristics of such status, which makes its present showing such a
    sorry sight. Squaddies trading pictures of abused Iraqis like they were
    currency or collectors cards, slaughtering civilians at a rate to make their US
    cousins hi-five ‘em with true American gusto, while wincing with envy at the
    same time.

    and if the pictures of British prisoner abuse do turn out to be false what
    better insight into the British soul could you seek? where will this desperate
    English longing to part of a Very Special relationship take them?

    it sure is a fine coalition.

    i nawet my, za wolnosc nasza i wasza, ignored and despised, but always faithful.

    (wait till Lepper grasps the helm).

    as far the silver jewelry, which W is offering the children of America I get
    the impression that if you jam it up the appropriate orifice it will act as a
    powerful sexual stimulant, contraceptive, and impenetrable barrier to sexually
    transmitted diseases.










  • chickenshorts 12.05.04, 06:27
    erwas, you've been drinking again...

  • Gość: dokt0r IP: *.a.002.pth.iprimus.net.au 12.05.04, 07:30
    Let's face it - those prisoners weren't exactly innocent, were they? How would you feel if one of those prisoners just killed one of your mates? You know that as soon as they leave gaol they'll just keep throwing hand grenades at innocent Iraqi and foreign civilians. Would you really give them a 'fair' treatment?

    And after the recent killing of an American citizen I can't help but feel they actually deserved it. Geneva convention just doesn't apply to barbarians.

    It's just amazing how quickly we forget about our own people slain in Iraq. There's so much ado about Abu Gharib, while on the other hand people like Hieronim Kupczyk get only a small mention in the media. Something's not right, is it?
  • chickenshorts 12.05.04, 11:26
    Gość portalu: dokt0r napisał(a):

    > Let's face it - those prisoners weren't exactly innocent, were they?

    What sort of medic are you, doc? Are you OK? What do you mean by the tag
    'exactly innocent' when tied to the victims of assault?

    >How would
    > you feel if one of those prisoners just killed one of your mates? <

    If my mate was dumb enough to go on a 'mission of liberating' others,
    especially under Bush/Blair/God aegis, he would no longer be my mate...

    >You know that
    > as soon as they leave gaol they'll just keep throwing hand grenades at
    innocen
    > t Iraqi and foreign civilians.

    And where the fuck do you get all this 'light' from? Fox News? I know Murdoch
    is an Australian but at least he doesn't believe in what his Corporation is
    telling others... He is no Wacko.

    > Would you really give them a 'fair' treatment?

    I am speechless! What is the temperature in Australia where you are?

    > And after the recent killing of an American citizen I can't help but feel
    they
    > actually deserved it. Geneva convention just doesn't apply to barbarians.

    So, the 'revenge beheading' had been foreseen by prescient Lane McCotter and
    appropriately dealt with aforehand, is it?

    Based on that logic, no wonder the whole thing comes a cropper...

    > It's just amazing how quickly we forget about our own people slain in Iraq.
    The
    > re's so much ado about Abu Gharib, while on the other hand people like
    Hieronim
    > Kupczyk get only a small mention in the media. Something's not right, is it?

    What do you mean by 'our own people'?

    Nothing is right there but not in the way you mean it!
  • erwas 12.05.04, 16:03
    Gość portalu: dokt0r napisał(a):

    > Let's face it - those prisoners weren't exactly innocent, were they?

    the official statistic is that between 70 and 90% of those held in Iraqi
    prisons by the coalition were picked up in error.
    "in error" means lapanki. you know, the early morning raid, grab a roomful of
    sleeping people, a careful rifle butt in each face, and off to the dungeon.
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 12.05.04, 19:26
    erwas napisał:
    > the official statistic is that between 70 and 90% of those held in Iraqi
    > prisons by the coalition were picked up in error.

    I must diagree. There are no official statistics. The figure 70% to 90% is an
    assertion by International Red Cross. In this particular prison all of the
    detainees were al qaida types, taken in combat situation.
    Nevertheless, the behavior of the guards is shameful and illegal but far from
    torture.

    Chickenshorts stop taking whatever you're taking.
  • Gość: felusiak IP: *.nyc.rr.com 13.05.04, 03:56
    I feel sorry for you and yours.
    Infantile mind, sophomoric argumentation.
    I feel really sorry.

    How much is a gallon of gas where you are?
  • chickenshorts 13.05.04, 06:27
    Gość portalu: felusiak napisał(a):

    > I feel sorry for you and yours.
    > Infantile mind, sophomoric argumentation.
    > I feel really sorry.

    Look, who's talking! God bless and thank you, F.!
    I'm no longer a dorky anorak, sounding off on politics and WMD...What a relief!

    > How much is a gallon of gas where you are?

    Scraping the wrong barrel, again! aren't you?

    You are a real WONK, whack. Your pathetic forays into economic, political and
    moral justifications of you know what make you the biggest 'trrriiisstt
    asshole'!


  • kociamama 12.05.04, 20:56
    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

    >> Nevertheless, the behavior of the guards is shameful and illegal but far from
    > torture.
    >
    It depends on your evaluation then. Sodomizing, forcing to appear naked like on
    the hc sm porn pics and later offering special caresses (namely "electric shock
    therapy")to the prisoners is torture in my understanding.

    Later,
    Kociamama.
  • chickenshorts 12.05.04, 22:14
    kociamama napisała:

    > Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):
    >
    > >> Nevertheless, the behavior of the guards is shameful and illegal but f
    > ar from
    > > torture.
    > >
    > It depends on your evaluation then. Sodomizing, forcing to appear naked like
    on
    >
    > the hc sm porn pics and later offering special caresses (namely "electric
    shock
    >
    > therapy")to the prisoners is torture in my understanding.
    >
    > Later,
    > Kociamama.

    Ah, you don't know Wacko. His idea of torture is, like most of his ideas, a bit
    on a medieval side; you know, impaling, garroting, forced convertion...
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 13.05.04, 03:54
    The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
    Some say that walking around in the 10 by 10 room constitutes the torture.
    Sleep depravation in their eyes is the torture.

    Well, go to any prison between Marocco and Pakistan and find out what the
    torture really is.

  • erwas 13.05.04, 05:02
    here are some descriptions of these events for you (wacko jacko) to consider:

    Ronald Rumsfeld: "sadistic, cruel and inhuman"

    Senator Lindsday Graham (R-SC): "We're not just talking about giving people a
    humiliating experience - we're talking about rape and murder and some very
    serious charges."

    the US Army's internal report: "sadistic, blatant and wanton"
    it comments on acts such as "Breaking chemical lights and pouring the
    phosphoric liquid on detainees," and "sodomizing a detainee with a chemical
    light and perhaps a broom stick."

    Rush Limbaugh: "understandable", *fraternity prank", "people having a good
    time, these poeple, you ever heard of emotional relrase? you heard of need to
    blow some steam off?"

    no need to ask you, where you stand.
  • chickenshorts 13.05.04, 06:31
    Images of an American being beheaded in Iraq have horrified the west, but the
    photographs of prisoners being abused in Abu Ghraib jail sparked surprisingly
    little outrage among Arabs. Why? Because, says Jonathan Raban, it was precisely
    what they expected

    by Jonathan Raban

    Seeing the terrible pictures of the beheading of Nicholas Berg, it's easy to
    miss the significance of the soundtrack that accompanies them. The taped voice -
    presumably that of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian associate of Osama bin
    Laden - rails not just against the Bush administration, but against the torpor
    of the Arab world. "The shameful photos are evil humiliation for Muslim men and
    women in the Abu Ghraib prison. Where is the sense of honour, where is the
    rage? Where is the anger for God's religion? Where is the sense of veneration
    for Muslims, and where is the sense of vengeance for the honour of Muslim men
    and women in the crusaders' prisons?" Professing himself to be outraged by the
    absence of Arab outrage at the photos from Abu Ghraib, Zarqawi proceeds with
    his gruesome remake of the videotaped killing of Daniel Pearl in Pakistan in
    2002.
    That portion of Zarqawi's repellent message - his claim that people in the
    Middle East haven't been as shocked by the Abu Ghraib pictures as one might
    expect - is surely true. For days, there was a feeling of tentative, nervous
    relief in the United States that the pictures streaming out of Abu Ghraib had
    not - yet - provoked the wave of uncontrollable and violent popular protest
    across the Arab world that many Americans had feared. It was suggested that
    Arabs are so inured to torture in their own countries that they had lost the
    ability to be shocked by it, also that Iraqi Shia Muslims and Kurds were
    unlikely to be greatly upset by the sight of Ba'athist Sunnis getting a taste
    of their own medicine from their western jailers.

    Both these quasi-explanations were self-serving shots in the dark. What was
    clear from reading the English-language Arab press over last weekend was the
    truth of the old saying: "American viciously humiliates Arab" is not news; only
    when the terms are reversed are headlines made. To most of the Arab editorial
    writers, and perhaps to most Arabs, the digital photos merely confirmed what
    they had been saying since long before the invasion of Iraq took place: America
    is on an orientalist rampage in which Arabs are systematically denatured,
    dehumanised, stripped of all human complexity, reduced to naked babyhood.

    Defining the orientalist project, Edward Said wrote of how occidentals
    feminised and infantilised Arabs, crediting them with "feminine" traits like
    intuition and an incapacity for reason (so Arab magicians figure large in the
    mythology, but Arab mathematicians not at all), and rendered Arabia as pliant,
    sensuous, passive, awaiting penetration by the rational masculine west.

    In classic orientalist fashion, Iraq was brutally simplified before it was
    invaded. Because of the way that the British, operating on the principle of
    divide and rule, had cobbled together three profoundly dissimilar Ottoman
    provinces to make a nation, Iraq stands alone in the Arab world in its complex
    rifts of religion, politics, tribe, race and class. For 80 years, Iraq has been
    an immensely tricky spiderweb of social and cultural lines and intersections.
    None of this was recognised by the invaders. As recently as last January, so we
    are told, George Bush was cheerfully ignorant of the deepest, most conspicuous
    fault-line in Iraqi society, the division between Sunni and Shia. The Bush
    administration rhetorically homogenised the several peoples of Iraq by endless
    iteration of the phrase "the Iraqi people", or, when speaking of Saddam, "his
    own people".

    When Saddam's gang of Tikritis gassed Kurdish villages or drained the water
    from the Marsh Arabs' swamps, they were decidedly not dealing with their "own
    people", but with people they regarded as dangerous aliens: tribally, racially,
    religiously, politically distinct from themselves. Now, when coalition forces
    insist on blaming "foreign fighters" for home-grown Iraqi insurrections, they
    unconsciously mirror the mindset of the Ba'athists, who regarded Kurds and
    southern Shia as equally foreign fighters. War, said Ambrose Bierce, is God's
    way of teaching Americans geography, and in the last year some human geography
    has been learned, mainly to the effect that a large number of Iraqi people
    appear not to belong to the Iraqi people - that orientalist construct which was
    the catchphrase of 2002.

    The Iraqi people were pictured as yearning, femininely, childishly, with one
    voice, for a pluralist free-market democracy, and (bad taste though it is to
    recall this detail) they would greet their liberators, femininely, childishly,
    with flowers. In the early autumn of 2002, the secretary-general of the Arab
    League, Amr Moussa, warned that a western invasion of Iraq would "open the jaws
    of hell", but the orientalists listened to no one from the region, preferring
    to trust the Middle Eastern expertise of Paul Wolfowitz, who blithely
    represented Iraq as a comely bride, trapped in a dungeon by her wicked
    stepfather.

    By the time of the invasion, Iraq had been so exhaustively orientalised that it
    had lost almost all connection to reality. Much of this effort was grandly
    sentimental, oozing goodwill toward "the Iraqi people". All of it was
    dehumanising, robbing Iraqis of their intractable particularity. None of it
    fooled the long-memoried Arabs in neighbouring states, who had seen this stuff
    many times before, and who might, perhaps, have recognised in the perorations
    of Wolfowitz of Arabia the ghostly voice of TE Lawrence in the poem that
    prefaces The Seven Pillars of Wisdom with a breathtakingly vain promise of
    mutual orgasm:

    I loved you, so I drew these tides of men into my hands

    and wrote my will across the sky in stars

    To earn you Freedom, the seven-pillared worthy house,

    that your eyes might be shining for me

    When we came.

    In the event, Lawrence's seed was spilled, like Onan's, and like that of every
    orientalist who has dreamed of liberating Arabia, on the sand.

    It is necessary to go over this old and painful ground in order to read the
    messages from Abu Ghraib. One searches the photos in vain for signs of
    furtiveness on the part of the torturers, for any indication that they were
    snapped on the sly. To the contrary: the soldiers, fresh-faced, smiling, happy,
    look as if they are taking pride in a job well done - and the job in question
    looks like the orientalist enterprise, acted out in gross cartoon form. Here is
    Arabia nude, faceless under a hood, or ridiculously feminised in women's
    panties, forced into infantile masturbatory sex and sodomy. (These people are
    ruled by their nether organs, not by their higher faculties, is the orientalist
    line.) The jail has become a grotesque nursery, with Private Lynndie England
    (her very name like the nom de guerre of a sex worker), cigarette jutting from
    her cheerful grin, playing the part of the au pair from hell. The pictures
    appear to be so single-minded in their intent, so artfully directed, so
    relentlessly orientalist in their conception, that one looks instinctively for
    a choreographer - a senior intelligence officer, perhaps, who keeps Edward Said
    on his bedside table, and ransacks the book each night for new ideas.

    That speculation is probably misplaced. A chilling story in last Saturday's New
    York Times made plain that the humiliations depicted in the Abu Ghraib pictures
    are regularly practised in domestic American prisons. The reporter, Fox
    Butterfield, dug up examples of hooding, stripping naked and forced sex
    inflicted by guards in jails in Arizona, Utah, Virginia and Texas. At least two
    of the American sol
  • chickenshorts 13.05.04, 06:36

    ...At least two of the American soldiers due to be court-martialled are
    reservists who are "corrections officers" in civilian life, and it seems likely
    that in Baghdad they were indulging in sadistic amusements perfected back home
    in the US. Like Esperanto, dehumanisation is an international language with a
    universal grammar, and orientalism is one of its local dialects - a distinction
    that will, unfortunately, be lost on every Arab and Muslim who brings the
    photos up on his or her computer.

    However fortuitously, the pictures of torture fit snugly into the larger
    pattern of the orientalist conquest of Arabia as it is perceived on the
    peninsula. What began as romantic simplification of the real life of Iraq - the
    Wolfowitz scenario - culminates in the erasure of human identity and the
    rendering of men and women as inanimate objects.

    Seymour Hersh, who broke the Abu Ghraib story in the New Yorker, quotes
    Specialist Matthew Wisdom of the Military Police: "I remember SSG Frederick
    hitting one prisoner in the side of its ribcage ... I saw two naked detainees,
    one masturbating to another with its mouth open." When pronouns drift so
    casually from he to it (and the speaker here is a whistleblower, not a
    torturer), we are in a nightmare world where men are barely distinguishable
    from flies or black beetles.

    The gruesome murder of Nicholas Berg should not obscure the fact that the
    pictures from Abu Ghraib were generally accepted in the Muslim world with
    eerie, almost philosophical calm. It is as if they knew all along that it was
    like this. Even before President Bush drew tides of men into his hands and
    wrote his will across the sky in stars, and long before the goons with digital
    cameras came on the scene, Arabs knew they were thought of as "it"s.

    A released detainee, quoted by the New York Times on May 10, says: "I realised
    [the Americans] came to obliterate a whole society, a whole civilisation" - a
    thought so old and so commonplace that one might hear it uttered, world-
    wearily, in any Arab cafe, anywhere across the globe. The questionable truth of
    the thought hardly matters now: it is so widely believed, so amply,
    extravagantly confirmed in the grinning face of Lynndie England. "American
    humiliates Arab" is not news. Unfortunately for us, those - like Zarqawi's al-
    Qaida franchise - bent on exploiting the injuries of the humiliated know all
    too well what does make news.

  • chickenshorts 13.05.04, 08:09
    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

    > The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    You very stupid Itze!

    Here, from Reuters:

    "By Vicki Allen

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Members of the U.S. Congress have seen new images of
    violence and sexual humiliation from a U.S.-run Iraqi prison in a closed
    viewing one lawmaker likened to a descent into "the wings of hell."

    Lawmakers said on Wednesday images showed inmates apparently being coerced to
    commit sodomy, wounds possibly from dog bites, a number of dead bodies, and
    examples of "sadistic torture" and "sexual humiliation."

    Some top Republicans urged that the still pictures and video not be released
    publicly, saying they could endanger U.S. forces overseas.

    "What we saw is appalling. It is consistent with the photos that you've seen in
    the press to date. They go beyond that in many ways in terms of the various
    activities that are depicted," said Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a
    Tennessee Republican.

    "There were some awful scenes. It felt like you were descending into one of the
    wings of hell and sadly it was our own creation," said Senator Richard Durbin,
    an Illinois Democrat. "And when you think of the sadism, the violence, the
    sexual humiliation, after a while you just turn away, you just can't take it
    any more.

    "I still cannot believe that this happened without the knowledge of those at
    higher levels," Durbin added.

    Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld warned last week the pictures could worsen a
    scandal that ignited international outrage and shook U.S. global prestige as
    the United States seeks to stabilise Iraq.

    Senators and members of the House of Representatives had a chance over several
    hours to look at some 1,600 images in separate secure rooms in a presentation
    conducted by the Pentagon, which kept custody of the material.

    FORCED SODOMY

    Many lawmakers said the images were similar to photographs shown around the
    world of naked prisoners stacked in a pyramid or positioned to simulate sex
    acts at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, but they said some were even more
    shocking.

    Lawmakers said they did not see examples of outright rape, murder or abuses of
    children.

    Senator Peter Fitzgerald, an Illinois Republican, said "many of the same people
    were involved over and over" in the photographs. "I didn't see different
    characters than the ones who have been in the newspapers," he said.

    Durbin described a picture of a man with half his head "blown off," lying on
    the ground in blood and gore, but said there was no explanation of where that
    was taken.

    An Islamic Web site on Tuesday showed an American civilian, Nick Berg of
    suburban Philadelphia, being beheaded by an al Qaeda leader in Iraq in revenge
    for the "Satanic degradation" of Iraqi prisoners.

    Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts, a Kansas Republican, whose
    committee had a closed-door hearing with Stephen Cambone, defence
    undersecretary for intelligence, said there were "44 CIA people in and out of"
    Abu Ghraib prison, "a lot during the evening, over a period of time."

    Congress is trying to establish whether the mistreatment was encouraged by
    intelligence personnel to "soften up" prisoners for interrogations.

    Roberts also said two other U.S. prisons in Iraq were mentioned in the latest
    material, "but the abuses were not as severe."

    'GUT WRENCHING'

    Republican Jane Harman, a California Democrat, said the new pictures
    showed "cruel and sadistic torture."

    She described as "gut wrenching" images of a nearly naked man "handcuffed to a
    wall, beating his head against the wall, recoiling back and forward, probably
    trying to knock himself unconscious and avoid having to live through the
    experience."

    Lawmakers said the images were shown fairly rapidly and with minimal
    explanation. Senator James Jeffords, a Vermont independent, said the pictures
    were "horrible. But they go by so fast. Terrible scenes. ... It was click,
    click, click.

    Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner, a Virginia Republican,
    urged that the images not be released before trials related to the abuses of
    detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison.

    "I feel very strongly that these photographs should not be made public. I feel
    that it could possibly endanger the men and the women of the armed forces as
    they are serving and at great risk," Warner said.


    > Some say that walking around in the 10 by 10 room constitutes the torture.
    > Sleep depravation in their eyes is the torture.
    >
    > Well, go to any prison between Marocco and Pakistan and find out what the
    > torture really is.

    Is that where you learnt your lessons?

  • kociamama 13.05.04, 08:28
    The fact that prisoners face, let's say, austere conditions in jails in
    Pakistan is no justification for maltreatment of the Iraqis whatsoever.

    Americans started this war in order to introduce democracy, and human rights,
    and to supervise whether these are not infringed.

    But I know, I'm naive to think the aim of this war is to improve the plight of
    the Iraqis. As somebody put it here, "how much is a gallon of gas in the place
    you live?" All actions are justified, even as long as the price of fuel is
    reasonable.

    Later,
    Kociamama.
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 14.05.04, 06:30
    kociamama napisala:
    > The fact that prisoners face, let's say, austere conditions in jails in
    > Pakistan is no justification for maltreatment of the Iraqis whatsoever.

    I am not trying to justify the maltreatment. In a PR war it's a disaster.
    How can we win the hearts and minds of the iraqis while commiting crimes.
    Nevertheless all has to be put in a proper perspective.
    It has to be pointed the military started the investigation in mid January
    and anounced it to the world. But the world was busy bashing Bush and missed it.
    There was no cover up like in a MyLai case.

    PS. "how much is a gallon of gas in the place you live?"
    That was a joke, just to get chickenshorts boiling. Unsuccessful thou.




  • Gość: dokt0r IP: *.c.001.pth.iprimus.net.au 13.05.04, 13:30
    Do you have any references for those statistics? Can you post any web links? Thx.
  • glory 13.05.04, 15:49
    Anyone knows the website containing beheading of that American civilian?
  • Gość: dokt0r IP: 211.27.194.* 16.05.04, 13:19
  • erwas 17.05.04, 20:29
    no, I didn't make them up; the are, as Wacko Jacko pointed out, put out by the
    IRC, which is a pretty reliable source of that kind of information. these
    figures are not diputed by the US as far as I know.
    all the alarming and so far discredited reports, which the Red Cross and
    various human rights organizations have been putting out about the situation in
    detention centers in Iraq and other parts of the archipelago, have proven to be
    correct, if not a little understated. after all, the tortures and abusers were
    careful to hide their deeds from outside observers, just as they are at their
    other sites.
    note, how quite suddenly it it possible to release whole bus-loads
    of "terrorists". what was the point of holding them in the first place. just to
    have a little fun?
    are there any instances of anyone being charged, let alone convicted of any
    crimes for which they are being held?
  • Gość: dokt0r IP: *.d.002.pth.iprimus.net.au 18.05.04, 16:25
    OK, but please try to understand me - I won't believe you unless you give me the
    link or tell me where you found this info? I'm genuinely curious and want to
    find out more. Thanks in advance.
  • erwas 18.05.04, 22:47
    since these are headline news, I feel almost foolish giving you these links.
    you should never feel shy about using Google.

    here's one source:
    Military intelligence officers told Red Cross monitors that 70 to 90 percent of
    captives in Iraq last year had been arrested by mistake, the report stated.
    Some Iraqi families roamed the country for weeks trying to uncover the fate of
    their imprisoned relatives, who had disappeared into the military
    www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14011-2004May10.html
    this is from a report from Amnesty International
    www.amnestyusa.org/countries/usa/document.do?
    id=9FEE894A64AC736085256DEF005811F7, (December, 2003), suggesting that the
    ICRC information is incomplete:
    ...abuses are alleged to have taken place in an interrogation section on the
    second floor of the Bagram detention facility, to which representatives of the
    International Committee of the Red Cross - who visit other parts of the
    facility - are reportedly denied access.

    and lastly, from the horses mouth, the U.S. Army report on prisoner abuse.

    The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have
    routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs)
    without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for
    their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu
    Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.”
    www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 14.05.04, 06:03
    The beauty is in the eye of the beholder I say again and if need be, again.
    In my eyes I am beautiful and chickenshorts is definitely an ugly bastard, kind
    of an asshole with the mission to fix the ills of the world.
    What constitutes a torture in the western civilisation today is not considered a
    torture in the muslim world. We, after all don't share the same system of values.
    In my country, in the state of Florida the electric chair was ruled
    unconstitutional and deemed cruel and unusual. Now they have to use a gas
    chamber. In the muslim world beheading and stoning is just snd humane and
    honoreable especially when beheading is performed by the victim's family.

    Dear chuckenchortz I do read daily and I pay attention not to fall for cheap
    shots and taken out of context quotations (erwas on limbaugh).
    For each and everyone anti-war, anti-Bush column there is at least one
    expressing the opposite view.

    You see, to be against the war or against the administration's policy, foreign
    or domestic is a valid stance. I respect that. Say war was premature, not
    justified, there was no clear and present danger. All these points are valid.
    In a democratic society dissent is valued and necessary.
    In other words Limbaugh and Franken, Novak and Hunt must exist for a system to
    be healthy.
    In conclusion, I will defend your right to post your gibberish on this forum.
    I will defend your right to call me an asshole, stupid asshole and
    itze (whatever it means). You have the right to be stupid, to be an asshole,
    to be a racist or a pacifist, to be a leftwinger or a rightwinger.
    As they say in the army: Be all you can (wanna) be.

    PS. Get off the bandwagon and begin to think for yourself. For starters try to
    read WSJ for the balance.
    Now, let me enlighten you on the difference between you and erwas.
    Erwas is a mature person. On top of what he knows he also understands.
    That kind of understanding is only possible when one lives and works in the
    country. Unfortunately, you lack that understanding.
    That's all I can say about the shrimp.





  • chickenshorts 14.05.04, 07:30
    Hello, Whack!

    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

    > The beauty is in the eye of the beholder I say again and if need be, again.
    > In my eyes I am beautiful and chickenshorts is definitely an ugly bastard,
    kind
    > of an asshole with the mission to fix the ills of the world.

    Well, no, not really but maybe virtually, sort of... It has some entertainment
    value.

    > What constitutes a torture in the western civilisation today is not
    considered
    > a
    > torture in the muslim world. We, after all don't share the same system of
    value
    > s.
    > In my country, in the state of Florida the electric chair was ruled
    > unconstitutional and deemed cruel and unusual. Now they have to use a gas
    > chamber. In the muslim world beheading and stoning is just snd humane and
    > honoreable especially when beheading is performed by the victim's family.

    I skip the above rant as the words fail me...

    > Dear chuckenchortz I do read daily and I pay attention not to fall for cheap
    > shots and taken out of context quotations (erwas on limbaugh).
    > For each and everyone anti-war, anti-Bush column there is at least one
    > expressing the opposite view.

    ...only where you reside and it's hard not to know the reason for it. It will
    be the blackest day when Bush is re-elected.

    > You see, to be against the war or against the administration's policy, foreign
    > or domestic is a valid stance. I respect that. Say war was premature, not
    > justified, there was no clear and present danger. All these points are valid.
    > In a democratic society dissent is valued and necessary.
    > In other words Limbaugh and Franken, Novak and Hunt must exist for a system to
    > be healthy.
    > In conclusion, I will defend your right to post your gibberish on this forum.
    > I will defend your right to call me an asshole, stupid asshole and
    > itze (whatever it means). You have the right to be stupid, to be an asshole,
    > to be a racist or a pacifist, to be a leftwinger or a rightwinger.
    > As they say in the army: Be all you can (wanna) be.

    Have you got an option? I suspect you to be the type that wouldn't (defend my
    right)if he had any say in the matter.



    > PS. Get off the bandwagon and begin to think for yourself.

    No!!!

    >For starters try to
    > read WSJ for the balance.
    > Now, let me enlighten you on the difference between you and erwas.
    > Erwas is a mature person. On top of what he knows he also understands.
    > That kind of understanding is only possible when one lives and works in the
    > country. Unfortunately, you lack that understanding.

    Couldn't agree more! That's why I miss erwas' posts. But then you both share
    some peculiar attitude whenever america is mentioned critically... You get
    (differently) patriotic... Can't imagine myself being so bothered about France
    or Poland. Strange, that...

    > That's all I can say about the shrimp.

    That's fine with me. Have another nice & 'cheap petrol' day!
    But think sometimes about your grandchildren. So far, your war on terror
    created more terrorists than it 'removed' and, surely, there is a reason for
    it... Even you can see that, no?
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 14.05.04, 18:08
    what's "itze" ?
  • chickenshorts 14.05.04, 22:09
    Gee, you are still here...

    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

    > what's "itze" ?

    Well, the answer is two-fold: a)Itze is some inflected form of Yitzchak or
    Itzhak and it could be it:

    www.malli-p.de/Mallis_Welt/Bilder2/Baeren_selfmade/itze.htm
    or b) in my private language (ever heard of Wittgeinstein?) it would be a
    little nasty dog (often considered & considering itself Chosen) that enjoys
    impunity because of the presense of a big, big strong and stupid enough dog to
    fall for the crap...

    But Whacky, look at this like broadminded man and try to see it from a liberal
    perspective: I think you owe me at least one 'thank you'.

    Consider (with little pride) your previous post. Quite good, honestly.
    Considering the fuckwit you usually parade as...(Btw, it was you who first
    resorted to name calling if you care to remember, so stop complaining) ...and
    considering your whinging about boring forum... So, here I come and poke it
    with a stick! What a lot of dust!
    And even Kociamama decided to step outside her remit, leave her field of
    expertize and drag her fat tail over Here, to my thread!

    Now, whack, say 'thank you' or at least stop whining. Shalom.


  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 15.05.04, 19:38
    Me? Whining? pahlease.

    So, once again I have become a nasty dog Jew.
    Not the first time. If you are not with us then you're must be against and the
    only people against us are dirty fucking Jews.

    As of name calling I beg to differ. I called erwas first but you were first to
    call me a PRICK.

    OK. Thank yOu ........... but, try not to copy and glue. Give me a link instead
    and post your passionate opinion in your own words. Don't be afraid, itz eezzey



  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 16.05.04, 16:26
    Accusations are not substantiated as of today.
    The story on Guantanamo is much better than tne hatchet job by Hersch who's
    known to be the one of the most venomous anti-administration writers.
    You know I don't go to New Yorker or the Nation Magazine for news.
    I'd like to see these videotapes from Guantanamo.

    PS. There is a new discussion on the reach of US courts.
    Do they have jurisdiction over Guantanamo Bay? Can GB detainees sue in US courts?
    There was an interesting essay in WSJ last week on yhat subject.
    I can't find a link to it, sorry.
  • Gość: dokt0r IP: *.d.002.pth.iprimus.net.au 18.05.04, 16:49
    They don't have the jurisdiction - and that's exactly why GB was chosen.
  • Gość: dokt0r IP: 211.27.194.* 16.05.04, 13:24
    Why do you even bother? Seriously, that chicken guy is not worth replying to.
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 16.05.04, 15:59
    Why. hmmmm? You see, chickenshorts is the only one willing to go the distance.
    At least he tries to defend his ground.
    Unfortunately he does not have the slightest idea how Washington works.
    He does not know the purpose of so called congressional hearings and is unaware
    of the amount of grandstanding. He does not know that senators questions are in
    fact 5 minute speeches. And then comes the face time. Run for the place in front
    of the cameras. To be on the evening news.
    All of this in the atmosphere of a witchhunting. Gotcha politics.
    After all it's THE election year.
  • chickenshorts 17.05.04, 06:24
    "So long as the buck stops with England and her colleagues, the whole episode
    can be reduced to soccer hooligans in uniform - the white working class (one
    African-American is accused, although he is featured rarely and appears in no
    photographs) running amok. Like arresting the Watergate burglars and leaving
    Nixon in the White House, convicting only them would suggest the abuse can be
    understood as the sporadic acts of a few offensive individuals. The higher up
    it goes, the clearer it becomes that they were in fact the systemic actions of
    an occupying institution.

    There is no need to fetishise class in all of this. Their class on its own does
    not carry any moral value, guilt or innocence. But it is relevant to their
    agency in a top-down military command structure. In the words of one of their
    attorneys: "Do you really think a group of kids from rural Virginia decided to
    do this on their own?"

    www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1218463,00.html
    www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1218417,00.html
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 17.05.04, 06:52
    "If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else."

    "It gets late early out there."

    "If you come to a fork in the road, take it."

    "I made a wrong mistake."

    Who said that?
  • chickenshorts 17.05.04, 07:02
    Frankly, wacko, I find your line of argument quite pathetic. Your assertion
    that because I don't know the workings of the flushing system in your country I
    can't see the reality can be translated thus: I, wacko (and erwas, too) are
    familiar with the system and therefore we know that shit can turn into gold.

    On the subject of Itze, you are a) and b) was a ref. to Israel.
    Maybe you should read less to understand more.
    Are you doing evening classes in political science?
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 17.05.04, 23:50
    ?
  • chickenshorts 18.05.04, 09:43
    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

    > ?

    too deep for you?
    Ok, let's try different route. You suggested I should read WSJ... Why?
    Do you read the Journal paying attention to detail or just regularly? Are you
    familiar with figures showing falling popularity of American consumer goods on
    glabal scale (= world wide demand down), simply because of the shift in
    perception of America since the war in Iraq... Are you aware if that?

    How is the mammoth doing on the home front?

    Good figures on employment? Let Naomi Klein explain to you few things:

    "According to a US labour department report, 288,000 jobs were created in
    April. Bush's campaign has seized on these numbers to further cast John Kerry
    as the dour New England pessimist, always droning on with bad news."

    Ha, ha... "Some jobs, however, are more responsive than others to the power of
    positive presidential thinking. More than 82% of the jobs created in April were
    in service industries, including restaurants and retail. The biggest new
    employers were temp agencies. Over the past year, 272,000 manufacturing jobs
    have been lost. No wonder the president's economic report in February floated
    the idea of reclassifying fast-food restaurants as factories. "When a fast-food
    restaurant sells a hamburger, for example, is it providing a 'service' or is it
    combining inputs to 'manufacture' a product?" the report asks."

    But this one is even better:

    "But not all of the job growth in the US has come from burger-flipping and
    temping. With more than 2 million Americans behind bars, the number of prison
    guards has exploded - from 270,317 in 2000 to 476,000 in 2002."

    Burgreoning prison industry bringing new jobs!!! should be the headlines for
    Bush campaign.

    www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1218981,00.html
    If a person tells me that an oil spivvy with dubious record on about anything,
    from driving to environment is a 'skillful player' and an asset to his country -
    I know what to think of the person.

    But then, no doubt, you are going to vote for him again, aren't you?

    I think that you are a 'freeper' and that portal is your chief source of info
    and ideology, despite your protesting otherwise...

  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 19.05.04, 01:20
    There is a huge wall between us. It seems we both are talking to it.
    Good luck. I wouldn't take Naomi Klein's words to the bank.
    Have you noticed how attractive she looks?

    Have you checked your goyder?
  • chickenshorts 19.05.04, 08:45
    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

    > There is a huge wall between us. It seems we both are talking to it.

    That's only because you willfully maintain your position behind it.


    > Good luck. I wouldn't take Naomi Klein's words to the bank.

    No, you wouldn't... You'd rather rely on someone taking government grants for
    rewriting history on the witchHunter, as far as I remember.

    > Have you noticed how attractive she looks?

    Never seen her. Send a picture if you can...

    > Have you checked your goyder?

    Do it on regular basis... It's me age, you see...
  • erwas 17.05.04, 20:51
    not only are the lowly-trash-wretches being singled out for show trials and
    punishment, but their bosses are escaping scrutiny and still in business in the
    world wide network of dungeons. I can easily assume that the tortures are still
    continuing, perhaps in new Iraqi locations.
    but in the locations alredy well established (outside of Iraq), where no
    outside oversight is possible and potential whistle-blowers well taken care of,
    the torture continues, no doubt.
  • chickenshorts 20.05.04, 10:26
    "I would like to apologise," he said. "I have let everyone down. It isn't me. I
    shouldn't have photographed those detainees."

    "I love the army. I love that flag. All I wanted to be was a US soldier," he
    added, before returning to his seat, sniffing."

    www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220708,00.html
  • chickenshorts 20.05.04, 12:30
    www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220829,00.html
    now, isn't that consistent with america's image as god's warrior? Look at this:


    "Just before Boykin was put in charge of the hunt for Osama bin Laden and then
    inserted into Iraqi prison reform, he was a circuit rider for the religious
    right. He allied himself with a small group called the Faith Force Multiplier
    that advocates applying military principles to evangelism. Its manifesto -
    Warrior Message - summons "warriors in this spiritual war for souls of this
    nation and the world ... "

    'Boykin staged a travelling slide show around the country where he displayed
    pictures of Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. "Satan wants to destroy this nation,
    he wants to destroy us as a nation, and he wants to destroy us as a Christian
    army," he preached. They "will only be defeated if we come against them in the
    name of Jesus". It was the reporting of his remarks at a revival meeting in
    Oregon that made them a subject of brief controversy."

    www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1220622,00.html
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 20.05.04, 22:18
    sid blumenthal has a reputation, you know. He is a known liar.
    On top of being a liar he is also an aparatchik.
    All of the above straight from Washington Post.

    " To understand the monumental stupidity of this new initiative, imagine the
    following: We are lucky enough to capture one Abu Musab Zarqawi - a Jordanian
    militant with al Qaeda connections, specialist in bio and chemical weaponry,
    suspected organizer of much of the Iraqi resistance movement and alleged
    beheader of American civilian Nick Berg.

    Now add the latest policy: No asking questions until the terrorist gets his
    refreshing eight-hour snooze - with the "night-light" on, if he so desires.
    After that, possibly a comfortable chair.

    Got the picture? A man who would have volumes of knowledge about the world's
    most lethal terror organization, who likely knows where the next several attacks
    on U.S. soldiers will occur, a man who might even know where chemical and bio
    weapons are being stockpiled for use against Americans - and we'll treat him
    with kid gloves.

    Why? To satisfy the "sensitivities" of those who are still incapable or
    unwilling to recognize the true nature of the enemy we face, even after 9/11 and
    a videotaped decapitation.

    Milk and cookies, too? "
  • erwas 21.05.04, 05:40
    > imagine the
    following: We are lucky enough to capture one Abu Musab Zarqawi - a Jordanian
    > militant with al Qaeda connections, specialist in bio and chemical weaponry,
    > suspected organizer of much of the Iraqi resistance movement and alleged
    > beheader of American civilian Nick Berg.


    don't imagine, wacko.
    vivid imagination is not a substitute for gathered information.
    Abu Musab Zarqawi has as many connections with al Qaeda as Saddam Hussain did,
    which is none. he is not an "organizer" of Iraqi resistance, no one is. not
    yet, anyway.
    further yet: there really is no such thing as al Qaeda. there is a Bin Laden
    (somewhere), but he is not an organizer of terrorism, he merely funds it.
    various organizations come to him with this or that scheme with the hope that
    he will approve and fund it.
    what Abu and Bin do share is a worldview, even though they are in competition
    with one another. Israeli intelligence classifies them as "jihadi
    international", which is more accurate than assuming that they are all part of
    an organization. this is a (Muslim) world-wide movement, rapidly gainig
    strength and new recruits, largly due to the actions of the debile i kretyni
    now running the "greatest nation on Earth".
    if you study it a little more carefully, the black-and-white certainties of the
    al Qaeda types are not that much different from those of the born-again
    Christian fundamentalists and neocons in DC. at least their fantasy reaches to
    setting up some Islamic empire stretching from Southern Spain through the
    Balkans, Central Asia to...wherever, and not just sitting on some cloud, at the
    right hand of God watching the rest of us being nibbled by locust and frogs
    after whizzing up in some rupture type of event.

    if I gather from the rest of what you wrote that you advocate torture, then
    (I'm sure you'll agree with me on this one) you are indeed a very low form of
    life. I can tolerate opposing points of view, but if that is where you position
    yourself I am affraid that I will have to scrape you of the bottom of my shoe.
    I do enjoy having an idiot to address myself to, and I will miss you, so
    please! tell me it ain't so.

  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 22.05.04, 16:05
    erwas,erwas the one thing you can't tolerate is the opposing point of view.
    Opposing is stupid, low form of life deserving to be scraped off of the bottom
    of the shoe. I don't advocate the torture, not at all. Kill'em all, now.
    These people (jihadist) understand only naked force.
    PS. You go and tell those in WTC and those in the trains around Madrid
    that Bin Laden is merely financing such operations. Merely.

    I must warn you erwas. WTC is only the preview of coming attractions.
    It's not if we will be attacked again. The question is when?

  • chickenshorts 22.05.04, 18:45
    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):
    >imagine the
    >ollowing: We are lucky enough to capture one Abu Musab Zarqawi - a Jordanian
    >militant with al Qaeda connections, specialist in bio and chemical weaponry,
    >suspected organizer of much of the Iraqi resistance movement and alleged
    >beheader of American civilian Nick Berg.

    I have... Well?

    Why don't you stretch your imagination a bit further! Torture them all & kill
    them all & then look into the mirror... Who will you see, whackwit?...
    Maybe... Musab Zarqawi? How lucky!!!

    And I thought you went to war because of A)Iraq's WMD, B) change of regime...?
    Zilch to *A + you caught B) What are you still doing there? Are you an American
    patriot? or an Israeli one? Because if the shrub is an asset, it's certaimly to
    Sharons and Nethanfuckyus:

    www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1222394,00.html
    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):
    do erwasa, co prawda ale...:

    > erwas,erwas the one thing you can't tolerate is the opposing point of view.
    > Opposing is stupid, low form of life deserving to be scraped off of the bottom
    > of the shoe. I don't advocate the torture, not at all. Kill'em all, now.
    > These people (jihadist) understand only naked force.
    > PS. You go and tell those in WTC and those in the trains around Madrid
    > that Bin Laden is merely financing such operations. Merely.
    >
    > I must warn you erwas. WTC is only the preview of coming attractions.
    > It's not if we will be attacked again. The question is when?

    Because they prefer few virgins than American version of happiness? I thought,
    no sane santient being would run away from ... well, being & feeling well...

    You mean... they are not really human beings... Well, I mean...
    How old are you, whak?
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 22.05.04, 19:51
    You guys understand nothing.
    All this gibberish you are pasting here is worth less than paper it's written on.
    You are destined to live in fear and that's what you deserve.
    If you think that those jihadist will spare you... sweet dreams (on the other
    side while pushing daisies).

    Moralize yourself. I rather kill than be killed.

    PS. I love Netanyahu. He speaks good english and he call them as he sees them.
    Blunt honesty is worth more than flowery bullshit.

    I am way older than both of you.
  • chickenshorts 22.05.04, 20:08
    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

    > I am way older than both of you.

    Which is what? Were you around in '69? :)

    Well, I can't say I am sorry you are on your way out... That seems to be the
    only hope for the future...
  • usenetposts 20.05.04, 23:54
    chickenshorts napisał:

    > Last January, an online magazine, Corrections.com, run an interview with Mr
    > Lane Mc Cotter who proudly announced that the Iraqi prison was "the only
    > place we agreed as a team was truly closest to an American prison".
    >
    > Who is Mc Cotter? He was head of Department of Corrections in Utah when, in
    > 1997, a prisoner named Michael Valent, who was diagnosed with schizofrenia,
    > died after being tied to a 'restraining chair' for sixteen hours. The
    > American Civil Liberties Union executive director admitted that the immediate
    > thought that came to her mind upon seeing the chair was 'torture'. Mc Cotter
    > resigned in the subsequent scandal and went into the private sector of
    > prisons only to... yep, you guessed - to reappear in Abu Ghraib amidst the
    > recent torture horror.
    > I repeat what he said about the place: "the only place we agreed as a team
    > was truly closest to an American prison".
    >
    > Abu Ghraib is not an abberration. It is an American norm. And I am pretty
    > sure that there are more of the similarly sickening revelations to come. From
    > other places, other countries.
    >
    > There was a time when the popular saying had it that god created the earth
    > and humans but had to create the British to run the bloody place.
    > Today we have the Amercans doing god's job.
    >
    > I am beginning to hate that guy.
    >

    This is tangential to my provocative article "Sol-Vent abuse" in
    www.usenetposts.com/art8.htm

    I just know you're gonna love it.

    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • chickenshorts 21.05.04, 08:28
    usenetposts napisał:

    > I just know you're gonna love it.
    >
    > best,
    >
    > Uncle Davey
    > www.usenetposts.com

    christianity with dentures?

    unless you mean 'rotten teeth' but you are too vain to show them...

    not ever return to teeth, uncle. the times of Innocent are over!

    In return gesture and very much in gentleman-ly fashion, I am sending you an
    article by Polly Toynbee:
    www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,787075,00.html

    PS. Can't quite fathom whetther you are a clown or plain idiot?
  • chickenshorts 21.05.04, 22:01

    > usenetposts napisał:
    >
    > > I just know ...

    Sorry, uncle, for being so harsh... eearly morning and all that...

    You are just a salesman, a businessman in the insurance business... Oh, you
    have no shame. I used to do that (with success) when I was young and foolish
    but at least what I peddled was what most people really needed - a policy that
    would cover the cost of burial.

    Uncle's business is selling a policy against eternity in hell... well, well...

    "Why Join OCCM?
    There are many, great reasons to join OCCM and here are some of them.

    1. Membership with OCCM gives you a 100 word advertisement for your ministry.
    Our web sites receive thousands of visits each month and your ad (preferably
    written by you) will drive this traffic to your web site

    (having more people p r a y for your ministry, i n v e s t in your ministry,
    etc.). This advertisement will stay on OCCM for your entire, lifetime
    membership, making this alone a significant reason for membership."...

    pay and pray ...


  • chickenshorts 21.05.04, 22:16
    This is too good to miss, uncle... I hope you don't mind my helping you spread
    these... these... words

    1. "O LORD OUR GOD, HOW GREAT THOU ART"

    (Words Uncle Davey, Cambridge 1985, Music George F. Handel 1685-1759 Tune
    name "Gopsal")

    First published 10th January 2004, Go back to list of hymns, Go back to home
    page or Go to Bulletin Board
    (NB. The picture to the right was taken in 1985, this is how I looked when I
    wrote this hymn.)




    1.
    O Lord, Our God, how great
    Thou art, in all the Earth!
    How excellent Thy name
    Who causedst heaven's birth.
    Who hast Thy glory set on high
    O Lord, Thy name we magnify.
    2.
    Out of the mouths of babes
    Thou hast ordained strength
    Thine enemies to still
    And be avenged at length
    Lord, when Thy weak ones cry to Thee
    Thou art at hand to set us free.

    3.
    When I consider all
    The works Thy hand hath made
    The sun, the moon and stars
    Whose courses Thou hast laid
    Then what is man, that Thou shouldst send
    Thine only Son, his soul to mend?

    4.
    Thy mercy unto man
    Transcendeth all our thought
    Our sins were sore to scan
    But Jesus Christ us sought
    He bore our curse and misery
    In agony on Calvary

    5.
    Because Christ all hath done
    We hurry to believe
    And bitterly repent
    New, holy hearts receive
    In filthy rags we did despair
    But now Christ's righteousness we wear

    6.
    Redeemed, restored we stand
    Thee ever to adore
    By grace constrained to love,
    We seek to know Thee more
    In full assurance of Thy grace
    We press to bow before Thy face
  • chickenshorts 22.05.04, 22:31
    Uncle! where art thou?!?
    > (NB. The picture to the right was taken in 1985, this is how I looked when I
    > wrote this hymn.)

    Right! It would be very selfish not to share with my folk this:

    www.usenetposts.com/myhymns.htm

    and this inspired 'poem' again:

    > 1.
    > O Lord, Our God, how great
    > Thou art, in all the Earth!
    > How excellent Thy name
    > Who causedst heaven's birth.
    > Who hast Thy glory set on high
    > O Lord, Thy name we magnify.
    > 2.
    > Out of the mouths of babes
    > Thou hast ordained strength
    > Thine enemies to still
    > And be avenged at length
    > Lord, when Thy weak ones cry to Thee
    > Thou art at hand to set us free.
    >
    > 3.
    > When I consider all
    > The works Thy hand hath made
    > The sun, the moon and stars
    > Whose courses Thou hast laid
    > Then what is man, that Thou shouldst send
    > Thine only Son, his soul to mend?
    >
    > 4.
    > Thy mercy unto man
    > Transcendeth all our thought
    > Our sins were sore to scan
    > But Jesus Christ us sought
    > He bore our curse and misery
    > In agony on Calvary
    >
    > 5.
    > Because Christ all hath done
    > We hurry to believe
    > And bitterly repent
    > New, holy hearts receive
    > In filthy rags we did despair
    > But now Christ's righteousness we wear
    >
    > 6.
    > Redeemed, restored we stand
    > Thee ever to adore
    > By grace constrained to love,
    > We seek to know Thee more
    > In full assurance of Thy grace
    > We press to bow before Thy face

    and now the " very tangential" (sic) to any way of thinking article by a
    Christian with American dentures:
    www.usenetposts.com/art8.htm
    Now, uncle, tell us honestly (ha ha...) what are you cruising here for?...
    new souls, are Poles considered stupid enough for your Christian lurve?...
  • chickenshorts 22.05.04, 23:06
    Uncle, where are you? I need your guiding wisdom! These are my problems:

    Number 1: I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
    menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15v.19- 33). My problem is how do I tell? Most
    women take offence when I ask.

    Number2: I know that I am not to eat shellfish (Leviticus11.v.10)

    Does this include Lobster? If so the Lord would be very displeased that they
    are being caught, cooked and eaten around the world.

    Number 3: I know that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may
    I still play football if I wear gloves or can my relatives still have their
    heart operations and receive a pigs valve?

    Number 4 Most of my male friends, including myself, cut their hair and beards,
    even though it is expressly forbidden by Lev.19 v.27. How should we die? How
    can I, once dead, stop the guy in morque from shaving me?

    Number 5: A friend of mine has a farm. He violates Lev.19 v.19 by planting two
    different seeds in one field and his family wear garments made of two different
    kinds of thread (linen & wool). What shall we do with them?
    He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we get
    the whole town out to stone him? ( Lev.24 v10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them at
    a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?
    (Lev.20 v.14)

    Number 6: A number of us work on the Sabbath Exodus 35 v.2 clearly states that
    we should be put to death. Who is morally obligated to kill us?

    If you don't help, uncle davey, who will?...

  • chickenshorts 22.05.04, 23:15
    You know what, my American friend, as we, Europeans, have become LESS religious
    we have also become MORE civilised... What do you say to that?
  • erwas 23.05.04, 02:46
    you raise a lot of interesting points in your previous post. I will have to
    study it carefuly.

    > You know what, my American friend, as we, Europeans, have become LESS
    > religious we have also become MORE civilised... What do you say to that?

    here though, you go completely overboard.
    since when is being Polish or even English, for that matter = European.
    as for being civilized...
    remember what happened to Vandals after the split from the Nadwislanski region
    and made themselves comfortable in North Africa? perhaps you don't. well, they
    became civilized.
    hear much about the Vandals lately?
    if being civilized means flashing your boobs (if you have some) on some beach
    in France then you have a great future ahead of you. but if, as I suspect, it
    means endless whining, moralistic posturing and fussing over forty different
    kinds of cheese in your local Geant, then I'm afraid you're on the same path as
    them Vandals of late.


  • chickenshorts 23.05.04, 18:08
    erwas napisał:

    >... if, as I suspect, it
    > means endless whining, moralistic posturing

    Here you've got a point, I grant you!

    >and fussing over forty different
    > kinds of cheese in your local Geant, then I'm afraid you're on the same path
    as
    > them Vandals of late.

    ...but not here!!!
    Geant?!? 40 kinds of cheese? How barbaric! Geant is where the uncivilized
    Americans + some other barbarians do their shopping. Mon Dieu!
    The civilized Frenchman or woman shops for fromage in special shops where you
    can find no less than 300 different kinds of cheese... And don't forget to rub
    in some garlic if you want to pass for a refined gentleman!

    ...40/50 cheeses, buh, how uncivilized!
  • chickenshorts 24.05.04, 10:07
    Susan Sontag, my favourite American comentator on America:

    "(...)...
    The memory museum is now mostly a visual one. Photographs have an insuperable
    power to determine what people recall of events, and it now seems likely that
    the defining association of people everywhere with the rotten war that the
    Americans launched preemptively in Iraq last year will be photographs of the
    torture of Iraqi prisoners in the most infamous of Saddam Hussein's prisons,
    Abu Ghraib.
    The slogans and phrases fielded by the Bush administration and its defenders
    have been chiefly aimed at limiting a public relations disaster - the
    dissemination of the photographs - rather than dealing with the complex crimes
    of leadership, policies and authority revealed by the pictures. There was,
    first of all, the displacement of the reality on to the photographs themselves.
    The administration's initial response was to say that the president was shocked
    and disgusted by the photographs - as if the fault or horror lay in the images,
    not in what they depict. There was also the avoidance of the word torture. The
    prisoners had possibly been the objects of "abuse", eventually
    of "humiliation" - that was the most to be admitted. "My impression is that
    what has been charged thus far is abuse, which I believe technically is
    different from torture," secretary of defence Donald Rumsfeld said at a press
    conference.(...)"

    www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1223344,00.html
  • usenetposts 24.05.04, 11:42
    erwas napisał:

    > you raise a lot of interesting points in your previous post. I will have to
    > study it carefuly.
    >
    > > You know what, my American friend, as we, Europeans, have become LESS
    > > religious we have also become MORE civilised... What do you say to that?
    >
    > here though, you go completely overboard.
    > since when is being Polish or even English, for that matter = European.
    > as for being civilized...
    > remember what happened to Vandals after the split from the Nadwislanski
    region
    > and made themselves comfortable in North Africa? perhaps you don't. well,
    they
    > became civilized.
    > hear much about the Vandals lately?
    > if being civilized means flashing your boobs (if you have some) on some beach
    > in France then you have a great future ahead of you. but if, as I suspect, it
    > means endless whining, moralistic posturing and fussing over forty different
    > kinds of cheese in your local Geant, then I'm afraid you're on the same path
    as
    >
    > them Vandals of late.
    >
    >


    True.

    --
    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • usenetposts 24.05.04, 11:41
    chickenshorts napisał:

    > You know what, my American friend, as we, Europeans, have become LESS
    religious
    >
    > we have also become MORE civilised... What do you say to that?

    What I say is this:

    1. I'm not an American, I'm English

    2. As we became less religious, we became the epicentre of the two world wars,
    which happened because the modern liberalism and atheistic philosophies that
    originated mainly in Germany caused a spiritual vacuum there which naziism and
    militarism filled. I don't call murdering 6 million Jews civilised, but that
    was the fruit of the irreligious philosophies that came out of Germany in the
    latter part of the nineteenth century.

    3. The civil society which we now enjoy is based largely on the achievements of
    religious people, such as the Protestant reformation, the abolition of child
    labour in the wake of the methodist revival, etc.

    The European countries with least religion, places like France and Belgium, are
    not notably more civilised than those with more, and for Poland it was the
    Catholic church, although I am a protestant I have to admit this, that gave the
    impetus for the roll-back of Soviet power out of Poland and out of other parts
    of central Europe.

    I suppose you leftist atheist would rather they were still here.

    --
    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • usenetposts 24.05.04, 11:33
    chickenshorts napisał:

    > Uncle, where are you? I need your guiding wisdom! These are my problems:
    >
    > Number 1: I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
    her
    > menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15v.19- 33). My problem is how do I tell? Most
    > women take offence when I ask.

    If you do, then your problem is that you will need to take a bath and be
    considered unclean until the evening. I hope you have a bath after sex anyway,
    I know I do, and if you have sex in the evening anyway, thyen you won't have
    long to wait before being ritually clean again and able to enter the temple
    like the good Levite you obviously are.



    > Number2: I know that I am not to eat shellfish (Leviticus11.v.10)
    >
    > Does this include Lobster? If so the Lord would be very displeased that they
    > are being caught, cooked and eaten around the world.

    You mustn't eat shellfish and be an Old Testament priest at the same time.
    Whether lobsters are included I know not, but I do know from Peter's vision in
    Acts that we are able to eat them as Christians now.

    >
    > Number 3: I know that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but
    may
    >
    > I still play football if I wear gloves or can my relatives still have their
    > heart operations and receive a pigs valve?
    >

    As a Levite in training for the old israelite Tabernacle, I would leave pigs
    very much alone. Try and have your valves off a chimp or an orang-utan, after
    all, you as an evolutionist should believe these animals much more related than
    pigs.

    For Christians, however, you can use the body parts of a pig for all not sexual
    purposes, but I would advise humane treatment of the animal during its life and
    a humane killing.

    > Number 4 Most of my male friends, including myself, cut their hair and
    beards,
    > even though it is expressly forbidden by Lev.19 v.27. How should we die? How
    > can I, once dead, stop the guy in morque from shaving me?

    Carry a card stating that you have taken a Nazaritic vow, and your chances of
    remaining intact are good.

    > Number 5: A friend of mine has a farm. He violates Lev.19 v.19 by planting
    two
    > different seeds in one field and his family wear garments made of two
    different
    >
    > kinds of thread (linen & wool). What shall we do with them?

    Give him the gospel, as the law it appears he's not too good at keeping.

    > He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we
    get
    > the whole town out to stone him? ( Lev.24 v10-16) Couldn’t we just burn t
    > hem at
    > a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?
    > (Lev.20 v.14)
    >

    You could. Or you could just give them the gospel.
    It might be more loving, especially as Jesus died to wash them of their
    blasphemies if they will but accept him.


    > Number 6: A number of us work on the Sabbath Exodus 35 v.2 clearly states
    that
    > we should be put to death. Who is morally obligated to kill us?
    >
    > If you don't help, uncle davey, who will?...
    >

    I'm not helping kill anyone. The letter killeth, as Paul says, but the spirit
    giveth life.

    This means that you have discovered that it is impossible to keep the standard
    of holiness required by God in the pre-Gospel dispensation. That is why now (as
    then in fact) we need a blood sacrifice to put us right in God's sight.

    But the blood of lambs is no longer of relevance, because this was just a
    representation of the true Lamb, Jesus. Before Christ was revealed those
    believing in the blood of the lamb were deemed to have trusted in the Blood of
    the Lamb.

    Now that we have the true Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world,
    the symbolic nature of many things before is made clear, but they were vital as
    they were a means of grace to people who had not yet heard about Jesus, and
    today they serve as additional indications that Christ is Messiah.

    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • usenetposts 24.05.04, 11:16
    chickenshorts napisał:

    > Uncle! where art thou?!?
    > > (NB. The picture to the right was taken in 1985, this is how I looked when
    > I
    > > wrote this hymn.)
    >
    > Right! It would be very selfish not to share with my folk this:
    >
    > www.usenetposts.com/myhymns.htm
    >
    > and this inspired 'poem' again:
    >
    > > 1.
    > > O Lord, Our God, how great
    > > Thou art, in all the Earth!
    > > How excellent Thy name
    > > Who causedst heaven's birth.
    > > Who hast Thy glory set on high
    > > O Lord, Thy name we magnify.
    > > 2.
    > > Out of the mouths of babes
    > > Thou hast ordained strength
    > > Thine enemies to still
    > > And be avenged at length
    > > Lord, when Thy weak ones cry to Thee
    > > Thou art at hand to set us free.
    > >
    > > 3.
    > > When I consider all
    > > The works Thy hand hath made
    > > The sun, the moon and stars
    > > Whose courses Thou hast laid
    > > Then what is man, that Thou shouldst send
    > > Thine only Son, his soul to mend?
    > >
    > > 4.
    > > Thy mercy unto man
    > > Transcendeth all our thought
    > > Our sins were sore to scan
    > > But Jesus Christ us sought
    > > He bore our curse and misery
    > > In agony on Calvary
    > >
    > > 5.
    > > Because Christ all hath done
    > > We hurry to believe
    > > And bitterly repent
    > > New, holy hearts receive
    > > In filthy rags we did despair
    > > But now Christ's righteousness we wear
    > >
    > > 6.
    > > Redeemed, restored we stand
    > > Thee ever to adore
    > > By grace constrained to love,
    > > We seek to know Thee more
    > > In full assurance of Thy grace
    > > We press to bow before Thy face
    >
    > and now the " very tangential" (sic) to any way of thinking article by a
    > Christian with American dentures:
    > www.usenetposts.com/art8.htm
    > Now, uncle, tell us honestly (ha ha...) what are you cruising here for?...
    > new souls, are Poles considered stupid enough for your Christian lurve?...

    There's no-one so stupid or so intelligent as to be beyond the love of Christ,
    chickenshorts.

    --
    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • Gość: Bodzu IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 11:37
    >There's no-one so stupid or so intelligent as to be beyond the love of Christ.

    That's very controversial... What about Buddhism, Hinduizm, Islam ... ?
    Do you think these religions are worse than Christianity (Xianity)?
    Do you think their prophets: Allah, Siddhartha Gautama (Budda) aren't providing
    to GOD ???
    Do you think that's something wrong with these maxims(for example):
    'To shun all evil.
    To do good.
    To purify one's heart.
    This is the teaching of the Buddhas.'
    If you think this way - you're wrong. It doesn't matter who you adore - it's
    important to do good and love other people!!!
  • usenetposts 24.05.04, 12:00
    Gość portalu: Bodzu napisał(a):

    > >There's no-one so stupid or so intelligent as to be beyond the love of Chri
    > st.
    >
    > That's very controversial... What about Buddhism, Hinduizm, Islam ... ?

    I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with what I said, but it's pretty
    clear that they don't include Jesus dying for sins in their religion, and that,
    having heard the gospel that Jesus died for their sins, they reject him.

    They may say that he was a prophet, as Islam does. They may give some other
    form of lip service to him, or make him a minor god - Hinduism has many gods.

    But Jesus didn't die for sin for people to reject that.

    > Do you think these religions are worse than Christianity (Xianity)?
    > Do you think their prophets: Allah, Siddhartha Gautama (Budda) aren't
    >providing

    > to GOD ???

    I am sure that they are not.


    > Do you think that's something wrong with these maxims(for example):
    > 'To shun all evil.
    > To do good.
    > To purify one's heart.
    > This is the teaching of the Buddhas.'

    Well, their teaching is at variance with the Bible teaching, then, as it shows
    that we should purify our hearts, but that we are not able to dop so, and need
    the grace of God sending his Son to forgive our sins.

    What answer does Buddha have to someone who discovers that they cannot cleanse
    their heart?

    > If you think this way - you're wrong. It doesn't matter who you adore - it's
    > important to do good and love other people!!!

    And when we fail, what then? What forgiveness does Buddha or Mohammed offer,
    and who bought that forgiveness?

    --
    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • Gość: Bodzu IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 12:18
    I was shocked your lack of tolerance...
    > > >There's no-one so stupid or so intelligent as to be beyond the love of
    Christ
    I place great emphasis on your words "no-one so-stupid", no blind,
    unconscious... but SO-STUPID!!!
    That's why I wrote these all things and here is:
    >>"what that has to do with what I said"
    I'll write a long post about these two things: faith and religious war because
    I partly agree with you but in some cases but generally not at all.
    I'll be back in one hour and then I'll write you my answer to both your
    preceding posts...
  • chickenshorts 24.05.04, 13:06
    Uncle, I didn't touch your rantings until directly invited to read your article
    which, frankly, got my goat...

    usenetposts napisał:



    > Well, their teaching is at variance with the Bible teaching,

    Bible is an ancient collection of patriarchal injunctions mainly, sparked off
    by fear of annihilation of some ancient tribe of goat herders and has no place
    in today's world. It's a sort of Jewish 'Mein Kempf' and nothing more.

    >...then, as it shows
    > that we should purify our hearts, but that we are not able to do so, and need
    > the grace of God sending his Son to forgive our sins.

    That's entirely a matter of belief... As for me, personally, I think that's
    where the main problem with Christianity lies. If you believe an act of sending
    his only son for slaughter to redeem 'sins' of his less perfect creation an act
    of love, than there is something terribly wrong at the core of this faith...
    Believe in absurdity helps to commit monstrosity which has been amply
    demonstrated throughout history of poweful christianity.


    > What answer does Buddha have to someone who discovers that they cannot
    cleanse
    > their heart?

    Which you clearly demonstrate in your 'controvercial' article. I suspect he
    would tell you to sit down, relax and stop drivelling...

    > And when we fail, what then? What forgiveness does Buddha or Mohammed offer,
    > and who bought that forgiveness?

    You are an indoctrinated and ignorant man.

    You seem to take great pleasure and pride in calling me 'leftist'... What do
    you mean by that term? I am neither an atheist nor any other -ist, a
    socialist/communist...

  • Gość: Bodzu IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 13:28
    I agree with you. I don't know if you saw Martin Scorsese's film "The last
    temptation of the Christ". In my opinion that's better film than "Passion of
    the Christ". Xianity, priests are wrong insisting on suffering and death of
    God's son. That was the most stupid thing which human race could do - to kill
    their God, isn't that funny ? There is no point in glorifying Someone's death.
    People, what for, do you think, Jesus died ? To adore his name and his death?
    To pray rosary and to go on the Way of the Cross ? No, in my opinion that's
    misunderstanding. He came to teach us how to live in better way... And what ?
    2000 years went past and people aren't even a bit better than in Jesus times!!!
    The fights against each other, murders, rapes, robberies, and many, many things
    like that. We have only new better toys as computers, cars, planes...
    But there's no changing in thinking... And people are intolerant. They don't
    realize that we don't have to pray all the time but what is important - DEEDS
    not WORDS (people don't pray all the time instead of helping each other)!!!
  • usenetposts 24.05.04, 15:51
    chickenshorts napisał:

    > Uncle, I didn't touch your rantings until directly invited to read your
    article
    >
    > which, frankly, got my goat...

    I'm not surprised.

    >
    > usenetposts napisał:
    >
    >
    >
    > > Well, their teaching is at variance with the Bible teaching,
    >
    > Bible is an ancient collection of patriarchal injunctions mainly, sparked off
    > by fear of annihilation of some ancient tribe of goat herders and has no
    place
    > in today's world. It's a sort of Jewish 'Mein Kempf' and nothing more.

    That's what you think.

    >
    > >...then, as it shows
    > > that we should purify our hearts, but that we are not able to do so, and n
    > eed
    > > the grace of God sending his Son to forgive our sins.
    >
    > That's entirely a matter of belief... As for me, personally, I think that's
    > where the main problem with Christianity lies. If you believe an act of
    sending
    >
    > his only son for slaughter to redeem 'sins' of his less perfect creation an
    act
    >
    > of love, than there is something terribly wrong at the core of this faith...
    > Believe in absurdity helps to commit monstrosity which has been amply
    > demonstrated throughout history of poweful christianity.
    >
    >

    The monstrosities which so-called Christianity has committed have arisen from
    its being diverted from core beliefs onto political concerns.

    > > What answer does Buddha have to someone who discovers that they cannot
    > cleanse
    > > their heart?
    >
    > Which you clearly demonstrate in your 'controvercial' article. I suspect he
    > would tell you to sit down, relax and stop drivelling...
    >

    I'm not the one with a head covered in snails.

    > > And when we fail, what then? What forgiveness does Buddha or Mohammed offe
    > r,
    > > and who bought that forgiveness?
    >
    > You are an indoctrinated and ignorant man.
    >

    You wouldn't even be qualified to make that judgement.

    And why make an ad hominem when there is an issue to be addressed?


    > You seem to take great pleasure and pride in calling me 'leftist'... What do
    > you mean by that term? I am neither an atheist nor any other -ist, a
    > socialist/communist...
    >

    Glad to hear it.

    So why write like one, then?

    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • Gość: Bodzu IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 13:41
    You don' tell that Xianity has a monopoly on the truth. That's the way to GOD
    as good as any diffrent assuming that people should help each other, be good!!!
    And I don't agree that only Catholics gain salvation... I think that anyone who
    will help fellowmen (other people) after death will be in heaven. But i won't
    decide about it, you won't also - that's why - my advice: more humility!!! Only
    God knows who will be with him in heaven. And you don't know that if there'll
    be Muslims, Jews, Catholics and the others. You don't choose these people
    that's why you shouldn't judge them. "Don't judge so that you wouldn't be
    judged". I have a lesson for you: BE MORE TOLERANT and DON'T JUDGE!!!
  • usenetposts 24.05.04, 16:00
    Gość portalu: Bodzu napisał(a):

    > You don' tell that Xianity has a monopoly on the truth. That's the way to GOD
    > as good as any diffrent assuming that people should help each other, be
    good!!!
    > And I don't agree that only Catholics gain salvation... I think that anyone
    who
    >
    > will help fellowmen (other people) after death will be in heaven. But i won't
    > decide about it, you won't also - that's why - my advice: more humility!!!
    Only
    >
    > God knows who will be with him in heaven. And you don't know that if there'll
    > be Muslims, Jews, Catholics and the others. You don't choose these people
    > that's why you shouldn't judge them. "Don't judge so that you wouldn't be
    > judged". I have a lesson for you: BE MORE TOLERANT and DON'T JUDGE!!!


    I'm not judging them, all I'm saying is that according to the Bible we all need
    to accept Christ for salvation.

    There is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved.

    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • Gość: Bodzu IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 16:38
    Ok, you are an orthodox. I'm not convince you of my truth because I don't want
    to do it. I'm tolerant and I'm respect other views. I think that everyone
    should have his own truth and be in agreement with his own consious. That's why
    I respect your point of view. But I have my own opinion which I've tried to
    give it to you. But you don't need to agree and change your mind. I tell you
    only few words: Love the other people even if they are Muslims, Jews nad other
    religion. It doesn't matter - they are equally God's children - I think so.
    Be tolerant and love them like other brothers and sisters in faith (Catholics)!
  • usenetposts 24.05.04, 11:01
    chickenshorts napisał:

    >
    > > usenetposts napisał:
    > >
    > > > I just know ...
    >
    > Sorry, uncle, for being so harsh... eearly morning and all that...
    >
    > You are just a salesman, a businessman in the insurance business... Oh, you
    > have no shame. I used to do that (with success) when I was young and foolish
    > but at least what I peddled was what most people really needed - a policy
    that
    > would cover the cost of burial.
    >
    > Uncle's business is selling a policy against eternity in hell... well, well...
    >
    > "Why Join OCCM?
    > There are many, great reasons to join OCCM and here are some of them.
    >
    > 1. Membership with OCCM gives you a 100 word advertisement for your
    ministry.
    > Our web sites receive thousands of visits each month and your ad (preferably
    > written by you) will drive this traffic to your web site
    >
    > (having more people p r a y for your ministry, i n v e s t in your ministry,
    > etc.). This advertisement will stay on OCCM for your entire, lifetime
    > membership, making this alone a significant reason for membership."...
    >
    > pay and pray ...
    >
    >

    You seem to have a problem with this, but it's no different to systems that
    give more traffic to other types of website.

    You just think that sites which have religion in ought not to have paid
    promotional systems?

    Well, let me tell you this, I earn my money, it's mine, and I'm not having any
    leftist lacky of the beast telling me whether I can shell out 25 dollars on a
    promotional system for my site or not.

    --
    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • usenetposts 24.05.04, 10:57
    chickenshorts napisał:

    > usenetposts napisał:
    >
    > > I just know you're gonna love it.
    > >
    > > best,
    > >
    > > Uncle Davey
    > > www.usenetposts.com
    >
    > christianity with dentures?
    >
    > unless you mean 'rotten teeth' but you are too vain to show them...
    >
    > not ever return to teeth, uncle. the times of Innocent are over!
    >
    > In return gesture and very much in gentleman-ly fashion, I am sending you an
    > article by Polly Toynbee:
    > www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,787075,00.html

    Polly Toynbee is a noted wibberal.

    She thinks religion kills.

    The biggest wars in the world have had nothing to do with religion.

    And a lot to do with atheism or lack of religion.


    >
    > PS. Can't quite fathom whetther you are a clown or plain idiot?


    If I'm a believer I have to be one or the other, right?

    --
    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • Gość: Bodzu IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 11:27
    > The biggest wars in the world have had nothing to do with religion.

    Here you are wrong. Crusades was caused by religious motives. And even '15th
    July 1410' is a good example of battle with religious basis (Knigts of the
    Cross). And what about the Inquisition... I'm a Roman Catholic but I am ashamed
    of this period... :-(
  • usenetposts 24.05.04, 11:52
    Gość portalu: Bodzu napisał(a):

    > > The biggest wars in the world have had nothing to do with religion.
    >
    > Here you are wrong. Crusades was caused by religious motives. And even '15th
    > July 1410' is a good example of battle with religious basis (Knigts of the
    > Cross). And what about the Inquisition... I'm a Roman Catholic but I am
    ashamed
    >
    > of this period... :-(

    It did have a religious flavour, but in reality the Catholic Church was all
    about politics at that time, and it still can't seem to get back into purely
    salvation-related matters and keep out of political issues.

    I as an individual believer can have all sort of political opinions the same as
    every individual can but I wouldn't expect the Church in toto to agree on the
    same political opinions, nor to put earthly power or laws to affect the
    behaviour of unbelievers above the goal of demonstrating to them Christ as
    saviour.

    The crusades were a difficult period, but they were essentially a reaction by
    people who didn't want to be forced into Islam against the military power of
    Islam. If you look at how Islam was propagated in its early period you'll see
    the difference between that and how our religion was spread at the start. These
    caliphs weren't hiding in caves painting secret fish signs, they were out on
    horseback waving swords around in well organised military cells. That's why the
    sword is their symbol to this day.

    The countries which are Islamic today were conquered by force, the countries
    which are not Islamic today are the ones which were not conquered by force, and
    all along the boundary there was armed conflict between us and them. Had we not
    fought, we would have died. Just like today we will have to maintain military
    supremacy over the Islamic world, because the day they get military supremacy
    over us, they are programmed to use it.

    As it is all they can do is terrorise, and shout all their bluster at us over
    satellite television.

    --
    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • Gość: Bodzu IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 13:03
    That's very sad what you've said...
    >>"Had we not fought, we would have died. Just like today we will have to
    >>maintain military supremacy over the Islamic world, because the day they get
    >>military supremacy over us, they are programmed to use it."
    Some people say that we could prevent II World War if some countries (England,
    France,...)attacked Germany in 1938/1939 when Hitler annexed the Karpaty
    Mountains (Sudety)...
    And it would be a fair war... in self-defence!!!
    But I don't agree with conception of fair or justified war... All wars are
    horrible!!!
    Jesus said that if someone give you a slap on one cheek you should present him
    the other.
    If you listen to carefully what Jesus said you don't write in your posts
    that 'Had we not fought, we would have died'. I agree that we must fight
    against invaders but here there's no any of Jesus's teaching..., don't you ?
    That's difficult to me 'cause I think that if people used teaching of Jesus in
    their lives they would be happy, it wouldn't be wars but that's not in human
    race nature...
    Many people prefer Nietzsche philosophy than Jesus teaching. So was Hitler!!!
    And now we have new the biggest terrorist on the world: George Bush!!! I don't
    accept wars preventive only defensive... But if people studied philosophy and
    religious it wouldn't be wars on condition that they would understand what they
    read...
  • usenetposts 24.05.04, 16:05
    Gość portalu: Bodzu napisał(a):

    > That's very sad what you've said...
    > >>"Had we not fought, we would have died. Just like today we will have to
    >
    > >>maintain military supremacy over the Islamic world, because the day the
    > y get
    > >>military supremacy over us, they are programmed to use it."
    > Some people say that we could prevent II World War if some countries
    (England,
    > France,...)attacked Germany in 1938/1939 when Hitler annexed the Karpaty
    > Mountains (Sudety)...
    > And it would be a fair war... in self-defence!!!
    > But I don't agree with conception of fair or justified war... All wars are
    > horrible!!!
    > Jesus said that if someone give you a slap on one cheek you should present
    him
    > the other.
    > If you listen to carefully what Jesus said you don't write in your posts
    > that 'Had we not fought, we would have died'. I agree that we must fight
    > against invaders but here there's no any of Jesus's teaching..., don't you ?
    > That's difficult to me 'cause I think that if people used teaching of Jesus
    in
    > their lives they would be happy, it wouldn't be wars but that's not in human
    > race nature...
    > Many people prefer Nietzsche philosophy than Jesus teaching. So was Hitler!!!
    > And now we have new the biggest terrorist on the world: George Bush!!! I
    don't
    > accept wars preventive only defensive... But if people studied philosophy and
    > religious it wouldn't be wars on condition that they would understand what
    they
    >
    > read...

    You talk about presenting the other cheek, but this has nothing to do with just
    war. If I fail to fight a just war, I am not turning my cheek I am turning
    other people's cheeks for them. Jesus neither instructs me, nor even gives me
    the right to turn other people's cheeks for them.

    The people who didn't want to remove Saddam Hussein were turning the cheeks of
    his torture victims, not their own cheeks.

    Your line of argument is purely sentimentalist, and has no genuine moral fiber.

    best,

    Uncle Davey
    www.usenetposts.com
  • Gość: Bodzu IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 16:24
    Yes, I agree with you! I know that people must defend their truth, religion,
    laws, but defend not ATTACK. If people only fought a case in self-defence it
    would be very good because there were no wars because every one wouldn't attack
    and only defend. In this case we don't have any enemies. Because people fight
    with each other we don't have heaven on earth. If we studied and used teaching
    of Jesus it could be here almost heaven (with our medicine, technics... but now
    through these achievements we slowly build a new Tower of Babel - these
    achievements like nuclear weapons, bacterial and chemical weapons and many,
    many more it could destroy us any minute now). But I am an optimist ;-) I
    believe in mankind despite all our weakness, sins... ;-)))
  • Gość: Bodzu IP: *.crowley.pl 28.05.04, 09:54
    Haven't we abused the holy name of GOD on this forum saying 't.g.i.f.' ???
    >ɮnd Commandment:
    >>"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain."
    ???
    What do you think about that ???

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