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Are Polish teaching English qualified enough?

IP: *.warszawa.adsl.tpnet.pl 30.07.02, 12:14
How many of you learn English in some courses or individual clases? Do you
think that it's enough to be the fourth year student at the English
Department to be a teacher? or that all the teaher should be after graduation?
I can stand the idea that someone who is in college ( with no experience,
knowledge etc) teaches English at school or somewhere else.
Edytor zaawansowany
  • Gość: blue IP: *.warszawa.adsl.tpnet.pl 30.07.02, 12:16
    there is a misprint. I wanted to say " I can't stand"; in the text there is " I
    can" I apologize:)
  • Gość: Prezes IP: *.ces.clemson.edu 30.07.02, 17:57
    Gość portalu: blue napisał(a):

    > How many of you learn English in some courses or individual clases? Do you
    > think that it's enough to be the fourth year student at the English
    > Department to be a teacher?

    Perhaps not, but what alternatives do we have ?
    Someone has to do it.
    I am afraid that teachers' salaries are not that great
    to attract too many people for the job.

    > or that all the teaher should be after graduation?
    > I can stand the idea that someone who is in college ( with no experience,
    > knowledge etc) teaches English at school or somewhere else.

  • Gość: ABeCe IP: *.poleczki.dialup.inetia.pl 30.07.02, 18:48
    well teaching in language schools or giving classes to people from big
    companies, which is more and more common can be actually very profitable
    activity.
  • Gość: Prezes IP: *.ces.clemson.edu 30.07.02, 20:45
    Gość portalu: ABeCe napisał(a):

    > well teaching in language schools or giving classes to people from big
    > companies, which is more and more common can be actually very profitable
    > activity.

    really ? How much can you make ?
    Hmmm... maybe I should quit my job ?
  • Gość: mamosz IP: *.acn.pl / 10.128.131.* 30.07.02, 22:55
    That`s quite a good money ab 60-70 PLN per hour.But what`s radiculous the
    language schools seem to tend to employ very young unexperienced teachers
    rather than more experienced which I can`t understand .Is the age the main
    factor at this job too?
  • Gość: Prezes IP: *.ces.clemson.edu 31.07.02, 17:56
    Gość portalu: mamosz napisał(a):

    > That`s quite a good money ab 60-70 PLN per hour.

    That 's not bad at all, I think.
    But still, I guess, I will not quit my job yet.
    Besides, I am a louzy teacher anyway.

    > But what`s radiculous the
    > language schools seem to tend to employ very young unexperienced teachers
    > rather than more experienced which I can`t understand .Is the age the main
    > factor at this job too?
  • Gość: English teacher IP: *.katowice.cvx.ppp.tpnet.pl 06.08.02, 13:05
    Well. it's not true. Maybe in Warsaw it happens, but not in other places.
    School takes ca 60-70 zl per hour, but teachres get ca 30. On private lessons
    you can have a bit less (ca 25 zl) people just won't pay more. Sorry to
    disappoint you, but teaching English is not just a peace of cake. And you work
    all afternoons and evenings, so forget going to moovie or just for a drink
    with your friends Friday evening.
    With best regards,
    English Teacher
  • Gość: mona IP: *.niedzwiadek.com.pl 01.09.02, 19:41
    Tell me where, I would like to work there. In fact if you are a young teacher
    you do not earn that much. Half of it is much closer to the reality, I suppose.
  • mouchi 06.08.02, 14:29
    Gość portalu: ABeCe napisaý(a):

    > well teaching in language schools or giving classes to people from big
    > companies, which is more and more common can be actually very profitable
    > activity.
    bull shit
  • Gość: jr IP: 203.129.132.* 31.07.02, 07:43
    I studied english at high school 3 hours a week and had a pretty shit teachers,
    and in addition I have never done 1 homework!!! I hated english I always
    thought it is useless… after all I went to study overseas at uni in english and
    found no problems. it so simple… you do not need super teacher to learn that
    language the only hard part is pronunciation,. anyone who spends big bucks on
    english should wake up and do it by himself!!! stop wasting money!!!
  • Gość: mamosz IP: *.acn.pl / 10.128.131.* 31.07.02, 23:18
    Gość portalu: jr napisał(a):

    > I studied english at high school 3 hours a week and had a pretty shit
    teachers,
    >
    > and in addition I have never done 1 homework!!! I hated english I always
    > thought it is useless… after all I went to study overseas at uni in engli
    > sh and
    > found no problems. it so simple… you do not need super teacher to learn t
    > hat
    > language the only hard part is pronunciation,. anyone who spends big bucks on
    > english should wake up and do it by himself!!! stop wasting money!!!
    So your english teachers weren`t so bad after all.Don`t you think that what
    you`ve written it`s a bit arogant? You weren`t too devoted student
    anyway,that`s why you weren`t too successful.Learning language is mostly
    selfeducation,the teacher is just a kind of leader.And as people here said he
    or she must have a kind of gift besides being well qualified. Learning in
    Poland and doing it in the english speaking surrounding is something absolutely
    different especially at your age when you just pick up the language.
  • Gość: kama IP: *.union01.nj.comcast.net 22.08.02, 06:14
    Do you think that the conditions under which teachers are expected to teach are
    good enough? Take a closer look and say if it`s possible to be a good teacher
    being given 3 hours a week (to be frank 3*45min) to make students understand?
    Were 3 hours enough for you and your friends to understand and learn the
    pronunciation? Obviously not.What about having 30 pairs of eyes in a classroom
    looking at you as if you were talking Greek? Do you think that teachers like
    that? That`s way you shouldn`t have offended your former techers since it`d not
    been either their fault or choice.If they had been given a choice they would
    have changed the education system which would be more beneficial for two sides,
    both students and teachers.
    And what about students who perceive themselves to be the most..the best...and
    as a matter of fact they can hardly give anything from themselves (homework is
    such a drudgery, right?) and blame others for their failures.
    It`s a never ending conflict which raises a great deal of controversy so I`ll
    stop it where I am.
    Good Luck to all people eager to develop their lingual skills.
  • Gość: pandee IP: 80.48.73.* 31.07.02, 09:14
    No, most of them aren't, especially the ones teaching in public schools.
    Reasons? Economical... No one who can use their GOOD English in some other way
    will go to school and slave for nothing (been there, done that). Besides, when
    you start working at school you have no time for improving your skills and you
    do the same thing over and over again. Anyone would go nuts :)
    Yes - our colleges are shitty, at least most of them. I've met people who
    wanted to work for a respectable language school - they had a degree and
    absolutely no skills whatsoever - and I mean teaching skills as well. Reasons?
    Native speakers who taught them weren't qualified enough, their Polish teachers
    didn't care, they had no gift for teaching/language etc.
    Solution? Anyone? :)
  • Gość: erwas IP: 12.96.204.* 31.07.02, 16:18
    Gość portalu: pandee napisał(a):

    > Solution? Anyone? :)

    market economy?
    if schools want to attract students they will need to offer good English
    teachers competitive salaries. this will offer a solution to those who can
    afford to live in area with good school districts or who can afford to send
    their children to private schools.
    as so many people in Poland have already noticed, market economy does not
    necessarily lead to social justice. post-PGR and other poor areas will fall
    further and further behind educationally, economically and socially, since they
    will not be able to compete on an open market.
    until across-the-board standards of living increase English teaching WILL have
    to be subsidized with tax money. like it or not, learning English is an
    essential part of modern education, even if you plan to work behind a fast-food
    counter all your life.
    erwas
  • Gość: Koka IP: *.acn.pl / 10.130.129.* 31.07.02, 22:58
    Gość portalu: pandee napisał(a):

    No one who can use their GOOD English in some other way
    > will go to school and slave for nothing (been there, done that).

    What about vocation? Some teachers teach in public schools cause they love
    their job. Money is not that important. They teach at lg courses for money.

    Besides, when
    > you start working at school you have no time for improving your skills and
    you
    > do the same thing over and over again. Anyone would go nuts :)

    It's not true. Teaching a language is fun. There are so many activities, games,
    exercises. Besides it's up to the teacher whether he/she improves his/her
    skills or not.


  • Gość: Bert IP: *.214.112.188.Dial1.Boston1.Level3.net 03.08.02, 23:43
    Gość portalu: pandee napisał(a):

    (...) No one who can use their GOOD English in some other
    way will go to school and slave for nothing (been there,
    done that).

    Are you sure you are one of them?
  • Gość: mamosz IP: *.acn.pl / 10.128.131.* 04.08.02, 14:22
    You can`t teach english without qualifications, the time it was possible is
    over.And the requirements are quite high especially in Warsaw.Th same thing
    fortunately has happened regarding to native speakers who also have to be
    trained as teachers not just speak english.So I don`t understand some
    opinions you probably do not have too much knowledge or experience in the
    matter dear friends.
  • Gość: kama IP: *.union01.nj.comcast.net 22.08.02, 06:31
    Hi.Good for you that Warsaw has such a demand.I strongly agree. In Bydgoszcz
    you can still find hundreds of young people teaching at schools having hardly
    their FCE passed.That results in a serious problem. They are often taught
    inaccurate English and it`s where everytning begins.
  • mouchi 06.08.02, 14:47
    Gość portalu: pandee napisaý(a):

    > No, most of them aren't, especially the ones teaching in public schools.
    > Reasons?
    Economical... You mean of course, ECONOMIC, because Economical=cheap, so your
    car can economical.
    cheers
    No one who can use their GOOD English in some other way
    > will go to school and slave for nothing (been there, done that). Besides,
    when
    > you start working at school you have no time for improving your skills and
    you
    > do the same thing over and over again. Anyone would go nuts :)
    > Yes - our colleges are shitty, at least most of them. I've met people who
    > wanted to work for a respectable language school - they had a degree and
    > absolutely no skills whatsoever - and I mean teaching skills as well.
    Reasons?
    > Native speakers who taught them weren't qualified enough, their Polish
    teachers
    >
    > didn't care, they had no gift for teaching/language etc.
    > Solution? Anyone? :)
  • Gość: JK IP: *.pl 31.07.02, 16:29
    There are two different things to be discussed. One is qualifications and one
    is just "something" that a good teacher must have. You can be well qualified
    and know all about something but be really hopeless at teaching. I have tried
    it some times. One was when I wanted to learn French 2 years ago. So I chose
    one of good Warsaw language schools. My teacher was a young woman. She was
    still a student. It was my first contact with French so I had no idea whether
    her French was good or not. But certainly I can say she was extremely bad at
    teaching. All that we did was every single exercise from our course books and
    only a bit of speaking. Sometimes she didn't even know the correct answers.
    Quite often while we were doing our exercise she was reading her Teacher's Book
    to get the idea what to do next. I gave up the course after 2 months. I
    couldn't stand paying for such shitty work.
    I had similar situation a week ago. I was attending a course for overseas
    teachers of English in London. As a part of it I had some lesson observations.
    Most of them were really great but one was exactly the same as my French
    lessons in Poland. And the teacher was qualified and she was a native speaker.
    I saw only one of her lessons. Maybe she had a bad day or so. But still:
    qualifications is not enough. You have to have this "something" that allows you
    to feel what you do. And it's not only a problem of English teachers but all
    people doing any job.
  • Gość: Rachel IP: *.acn.pl / 10.131.130.* 03.08.02, 21:57
    What about native-speakers teaching English and their qualifications? Most of
    them think it is "more than enough" to be a native-speaker, while they don't
    have a clue how to express themselves properly. They come here from diverse
    backgrounds, often with rudimentary education, often becasue they want to feel
    better and upgrade from being unemployed home to being the "guy from out
    there", who all the teenage girls run after and want to marry.A lot of expads
    (teachers) think teaching English is taking a lot of piss and a lot of money.I
    have never heard native speakers say that they need to prepare a class. They
    just improvise. I think it is high time we stopped treating them like deities.
  • Gość: A IP: *.dialup.optusnet.com.au 04.08.02, 11:01
    I would not accept anyone improvising. An essential part of teaching English is
    teaching the language structures. Presentation of these structures and learning
    requires a systematic approach and therefore cannot be improvised. For
    beginners, the teacher should ideally be bilingual (Polish - English). Teaching
    is a skill and cannot be replaced by just anything, if you are serious about
    mastering a foreign language within a reasonable period of time.
    Once you are more advanced, you can quite successfully take English
    conversation with someone who is a native speaker.
  • Gość: erwas IP: 12.96.204.* 04.08.02, 20:10
    Gość portalu: A napisał(a):

    > I would not accept anyone improvising.


    do you know what the qualifications for being an English teacher are? I guess
    that they differ betwen public schools and language schools and whatever other
    English teaching situations there are.

    erwas.
  • Gość: n IP: *.walbrzych.dialog.net.pl 05.08.02, 00:15
    And what about people who teach both at public and language schools? Funny
    thing about it is that they are perceived differently by the "public" and "lg
    school" students and their parents.For the first ones they aren't "good enough
    to teach my son English" while for the others "Good Heavens!- my son finally
    speaks English".
  • mouchi 06.08.02, 17:02
    Gość portalu: A napisał(a):

    > I would not accept anyone improvising.
    if you can tell that your teache is improvising. it is one of the key skills of
    a good teacher to be able to improvise.
    An essential part of teaching English is
    >
    > teaching the language structures. Presentation of these structures and
    learning
    >
    > requires a systematic approach and therefore cannot be improvised. Oh yes it
    can, trust me.
    For
    > beginners, the teacher should ideally be bilingual (Polish - English).
    Ideally, I don't think so.
    Teaching
    >
    > is a skill and cannot be replaced by just anything, if you are serious about
    > mastering a foreign language within a reasonable period of time.
    > Once you are more advanced, you can quite successfully take English
    > conversation with someone who is a native speaker.
    true.
  • kociamama 15.09.02, 19:14
    I can't agree more
  • maurycy 07.08.02, 07:31
    In my opinion, Polish EFL teachers, in a copycat fashion, use general
    methodology applicable to any nation not taking into account Polish specifics.
    They are well prepared, as far as the teaching of grammar goes, forgetting that
    the a foreign language learning should be focused on communication.
    We need communicators not linguists.
  • mouchi 07.08.02, 10:37
    maurycy napisał:

    > In my opinion, Polish EFL teachers, in a copycat fashion, use general
    > methodology applicable to any nation not taking into account Polish
    specifics.
    ?????? what is Polish specifics and how does it change methods of teaching?
    > They are well prepared, as far as the teaching of grammar goes, forgetting
    that
    >
    > the a foreign language learning should be focused on communication.
    ???????? How to communicate without basic grammar???? teach vocabulary and let
    the students speak: I be a student. ??????????/

    > We need communicators not linguists.
    Do we??????????????
  • Gość: mysia2000 IP: *.uznam.net.pl / 192.168.6.* 08.08.02, 19:04
    have you ever heard of such term? it's how working at public school is
    described by some of my collegues.(most of them work in lg schools that don't
    pay insurance stuff(this may be why they employ students)) I don't agree that
    working at public school makes teachers get bored and that this results from
    their lack of time to develop their teaching skills. 1.)total working time at
    public school is 18x45 minutes A WEEK!!!!!!(whereas almost 40 x60min being
    regular full time job)-so plenty of time left!I'd love to be able to work that
    little!2).most English teacher have nooooooo idea of methodology,have bever
    heard of Harmer,P.Ur,and had some lecture on methodology during their studying
    at English Philology Departament.
    and I agree that communication is the most important thing in ELT-grammar is
    just a tool that helps to communicate, not an end itself!!!elementary students
    (even adults) love when I tell them "now you can buy any food because you know
    how to say "I'd like to..."
    Polish students tend to overcorrect themselves which annoys native speakers who
    try to communicate with them- that's the burden caused by theacher who insist
    on occuracy too much.Nobody swims perfectly the very moment they are put in
    water.one must practice but how to practice if somebody shouts at every mistake
    you make?
  • Gość: Mouchi IP: 195.136.95.* 09.08.02, 11:57
    Gość portalu: mysia2000 napisał(a):

    > have you ever heard of such term? it's how working at public school is
    > described by some of my collegues.(most of them work in lg schools that don't
    > pay insurance stuff(this may be why they employ students)) I don't agree that
    > working at public school makes teachers get bored and that this results from
    > their lack of time to develop their teaching skills. 1.)total working time at
    > public school is 18x45 minutes A WEEK!!!!!!
    BULL SHIT! you know nothing about teaching if you say so. to all that hours you
    MUST add time you must spend on preparation of lessons, tests, checking tests
    etc. and it takes a lot of time. if you are a teacher and you don't do that you
    are not a professional teacher and what you do is cheating.
    (whereas almost 40 x60min being
    > regular full time job)-so plenty of time left!I'd love to be able to work
    that
    > little!2).most English teacher have nooooooo idea of methodology,have bever
    > heard of Harmer,P.Ur,and had some lecture on methodology during their
    studying
    > at English Philology Departament.
    I am not a fan Of EPD students, but just knowing the name you mention does not
    make you a good teacher.
    > and I agree that communication is the most important thing in ELT-grammar is
    > just a tool that helps to communicate, not an end itself!!!elementary students
    > (even adults) love when I tell them "now you can buy any food because you
    know
    > how to say "I'd like to..."
    > Polish students tend to overcorrect themselves which annoys native speakers
    who
    >
    > try to communicate with them- that's the burden caused by theacher who insist
    > on occuracy too much.Nobody swims perfectly the very moment they are put in
    > water.one must practice but how to practice if somebody shouts at every
    mistake
    >
    > you make?
    if you shout at your students for mistakes I am sorry for them. but teaching
    means correctness. what would you think of a teacher if his/her students spoke
    incorrectly? that his is a crap. a teacher is evaluated after his/her students
    skills.
  • Gość: ABeCe IP: *.poleczki.dialup.inetia.pl 10.08.02, 13:45
    it all depends on the approach of teachers. I know ones that insist on
    communication and ones that are overconcerned with grammar. The first ones
    allow thier students to speak with mistakes, not neccesarily using perfect
    grammar, while the others correct every single mistake. The result is clear -
    the corrected students have only a theoretical knowledge, nonetheless they are
    not prepared to real life situations, in which they will have to face native
    speakers and simply start communicating. Of course it's simplification,
    however I think that in many ways it is true.
    regards.

  • Gość: aggie IP: *.warszawa.cvx.ppp.tpnet.pl 10.08.02, 18:40
    grammar is as much of importance as communication. a lot of new language
    teaching systems, like 'callan method'or some of Berlitz courses, create some
    insane situations where students have the ability to communicate
    almost 'fluently' makin all sort of absurd elementary mistakes which are
    extremely difficult to get rid off in the further studies. the solution:
    ballance both.
  • Gość: ABeCe IP: *.poleczki.dialup.inetia.pl 11.08.02, 05:37
    you are right. you need to balance both, but still I do think that more focus
    should be on communication. sketch grammar problems, briefly explain them and
    then try to use these structures or whatever it is in conversations. That of
    course does not eliminate grammar as a part of teaching process.

    And one more conclusion - we should bear in mind that sometimes even most
    experienced teacher is useless if the student is not motivated to study. No
    methodology then is going to help. So students' responsibility is really high
    and additional self-study is vital.
    Regards to all.

    :)))))))))))))
  • Gość: ABeCe IP: *.poleczki.dialup.inetia.pl 10.08.02, 13:33
    fair enough
  • Gość: mysia2000 IP: *.uznam.net.pl / 192.168.6.* 10.08.02, 20:01
    mouchi- I don't understand your attack on me-
    1)I DO prepare A LOT to my classess but the more experienced I am the less time
    I need ( at least I can use some activities ADAPTING them to my class)
    2) I still insist that at public school you spend less time on preparation as
    some (or most )classes are divided in two = you do the same lesson TWICE but
    prepare ONCE
    3)I didn't mean to show off my knowledge of methodology but it served as an
    example of the most obvious methodology names that EPD graduates have never
    heard of
    4) how do you know if I shout at my Ss or not? what makes you to jump at such
    conclusions?(BTW I don't)I just expressed my opinion on "overgramarrized" (word
    used on purpose)students-AND I DO TEACH GRAMMAR!!!!!!!!but I always bear in
    mind WHY I AM DOING THIS!!!!
    and what do You mean by "a teacher is evaluated after his/her students
    skills" So what? If you are soooo smart at methodology stuff you must have
    heard of the fact that mistakes are a sign of development as it means that
    rules became internalised by a S.Never heard of it????Maybe you should develop
    a bit,attend some workshops,seminars OR YOU ARE TOOOOOO EXPERIENCED AND KNOW
    EVERYTHING?


  • Gość: together IP: *.nyc.rr.com 11.08.02, 09:02
    In this topic I do value the opinions expressed by erwas.
    Solid and logical.
    Mouchi is this topic's asshole as every topic have one.
    Seams to know all. Or am I wrong.

    The focus in Enlish languge schools in Poland is on vocabulary and grammar.
    Students have hard time understanding anything. They can say things. Many
    things. The only problem is they don't understand anything coming at them.
    Try to buy a pack of Marlboros in New York. Not a chance.
    You'll not understand the salesman's question as there are 9 different kinds of
    Marlboros. So, which one do you want?
    Schools totally neglect conversation.
    Maybe they should take a look how it is done in Belgium.
    My 10 years old nephew, whose native language now is flemish, can actually hold
    a conversation in English after just two years of learning. The simple one.
    Notwithstanding.
    together
  • Gość: mysia2000 IP: *.uznam.net.pl / 192.168.6.* 11.08.02, 12:00
    thank you together-mouchi can be described by 3 expressions using word "ass "-
    smart ass, pain in the ass,and...the one you used.
    I agree that Ss at polish schools don't speak at all- my student at private
    classes- last class of high school,really smart at grammmar(in fact I taught
    him proficiency grammar),he admitted that they NEVER had speaking activities
    (his speaking skills were good ,however,maybe beacause he attended some courses
    at lgschools)Anyway- speaking is "a waste of time" for most teachers at public
    schools- and this is not a myth-I know dozens of examples.but on the other hand
    our system of testing-namely tertiary education entrance exams promote such
    approach to teaching as they test grammar and vocabulary.
  • mouchi 12.08.02, 10:03
    Gość portalu: mysia2000 napisał(a):

    > thank you together-mouchi can be described by 3 expressions using word "ass "-
    > smart ass, pain in the ass,and...the one you used.
    .........thanks a lot but my nick is still mouchi........
    > I agree that Ss at polish schools don't speak at all- my student at private
    > classes- last class of high school,really smart at grammmar(in fact I taught
    > him proficiency grammar),he admitted that they NEVER had speaking activities
    > (his speaking skills were good ,however,maybe beacause he attended some
    courses
    >
    > at lgschools)Anyway- speaking is "a waste of time" for most teachers at
    public
    > schools- and this is not a myth-I know dozens of examples.
    .........true. maybe because it is easier to get a group of 15 pupils do
    excercises, read texts and answer the questions to the text, which is a
    standard routine of public schools lessons. why? I don't know. system?

    but on the other hand
    >
    > our system of testing-namely tertiary education entrance exams promote such
    > approach to teaching as they test grammar and vocabulary.
    .......it is impossible to separate grammar exercises and speaking practice
    while teaching. I also used to have high school students at private lessons,
    who desparately wanted to speak because at school they didn't have a chance.
    but I also had students who hated grammar and did't work on it. one of such
    students came back to me after a few years and asked to do grammar with him. he
    realised that he is fluent but makes mistakes which are unacceptable if he
    wants to be a reliable partner in business. (he set up his own company and
    works with foreigners a lot).
    so I am a pain in the ass if I hear that only one side (teaching grammar OR
    only speaking skills) is absolutely right. there is no good speaking without
    good theory knowledge.
    wish you a nice day
    your pain in the ass - Mouchi
  • Gość: TOGETHER IP: *.nyc.rr.com 12.08.02, 17:03
    Finally good post from you.
    Nice, coherent and to the point.
    I like you much more when I see no sting.
    Keep up good work.
    bubus
  • Gość: mouchi IP: 195.136.95.* 13.08.02, 09:20
    but I am a really nice creature.
  • Gość: together IP: *.nyc.rr.com 14.08.02, 05:07
    I know that.
    You must have had a bad hair day?
  • mouchi 14.08.02, 09:52
    absolutely not.
    it just my way to heat up the discussion.
  • maggie7 15.08.02, 02:35
    Mouchi, you sure did a good job trying to heat up the discussion. I like it. :o)
    And some of my observations and opinions, if you will...

    I get the impression, that a lot of you guys, expect your teachers to be
    geniuses. But nobody knows everything, and everybody makes mistakes, and we
    learn all the time. Listen, I am an EFL and ESL teacher, and the first thing I
    tell my students is to understand that I AM A HUMAN AND I DO MAKE MISTAKES AND
    I DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING. I tell them that I am a leader to guide them into the
    right direction, I am a source to help them answer their questions, and I am
    also a researcher constantly looking for answers, and constantly learning. If I
    make a mistake or I don't know the answer, I don't hide it. I ask my students
    to look for the solution together with me. Some people think it's stupid,
    because I should KNOW everything, but others love it. So I guess your reaction
    will be similar. Also think of CEOs and managers of companies and corporations,
    do they always know everything? Do they always have the right answer? No, they
    look for answers, they research, they have their teams to work with in order to
    find the optimal solution. They serve as leaders, though, who possess the
    necessary skills and strategies to make the process smooth and effective. I
    personally think that you should start looking at teachers in a similar way.
    Treat them as leaders, expect guidance from them and take advantage of the
    knowledge
    they have, and let them be humans, like you are...
    Also understand one more thing - in order to learn something you need to study
    it. No great teacher will put the knowledge into your head.

    And a question for a debate:
    who would you choose: wonderful teacher & good English skills vs. excellent
    English and poor teaching skills? I would like to hear your answers.

    Take care, Maggie :o)
  • ozpol 15.08.02, 06:00
    I would like to rise a few points.
    I had experience of learning English in Poland and overseas.
    In Poland – Uni., private lessons, group lessons and here in Australia evening
    classes and it does not matter how good is teacher it is US who need to learn.
    With the best techniques, mots skillful teacher you need to put afford to learn
    and it is hard work.
    I don’t believe that you can learn any language in class-room. You need have
    life contact – movies, books, radio and street.
    Good teacher is only for coaching to achieve good speed of learning, but it is
    up to us to improve.


    --
    Ozpol
    Miedzy rajem a codziennoscia
  • Gość: kama IP: *.union01.nj.comcast.net 22.08.02, 06:41

    Hi.
    What`s the difference between "good Englisg skills" and "excellent English"?
    Does it have to do anything with a degree.Be so kind and please cleare it out
    for me so I`ll be happy to participate in the discussion.By the way, I totally
    agree with your point of view and I`m certain that you make a great teacher.
    Not only is it caused by your attitude but also by your English skills. What a
    beautiful English you have.Congratulations.
  • maggie7 22.08.02, 15:13
    Hi Kama, thanks for your response.... you know what I meant by "good"
    versus "excellent" English skills... the latter being higer on the scale...

    next time I will try to me more precise :o)
    take care, Maggie :o)
  • mouchi 22.08.02, 10:48
    maggie7 napisała:

    > Mouchi, you sure did a good job trying to heat up the discussion. I like
    it. :o
    > )
    > And some of my observations and opinions, if you will...
    >
    > I get the impression, that a lot of you guys, expect your teachers to be
    > geniuses. But nobody knows everything, and everybody makes mistakes, and we
    > learn all the time. Listen, I am an EFL and ESL teacher, and the first thing
    I
    > tell my students is to understand that I AM A HUMAN AND I DO MAKE MISTAKES
    AND
    > I DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING. I tell them that I am a leader to guide them into
    the
    >
    > right direction, I am a source to help them answer their questions, and I am
    > also a researcher constantly looking for answers, and constantly learning. If
    I
    >
    > make a mistake or I don't know the answer, I don't hide it. I ask my students
    > to look for the solution together with me. Some people think it's stupid,
    > because I should KNOW everything, but others love it. So I guess your
    reaction
    > will be similar. Also think of CEOs and managers of companies and
    corporations,
    >
    > do they always know everything? Do they always have the right answer? No,
    they
    > look for answers, they research, they have their teams to work with in order
    to
    >
    > find the optimal solution. They serve as leaders, though, who possess the
    > necessary skills and strategies to make the process smooth and effective. I
    > personally think that you should start looking at teachers in a similar way.
    > Treat them as leaders, expect guidance from them and take advantage of the
    > knowledge
    > they have, and let them be humans, like you are...
    > Also understand one more thing - in order to learn something you need to
    study
    >
    > it. No great teacher will put the knowledge into your head.
    >
    > And a question for a debate:
    > who would you choose: wonderful teacher & good English skills vs. excellent
    > English and poor teaching skills? I would like to hear your answers.
    >
    > Take care, Maggie :o)

    thanks, "soul sister".
    you put it perfectly. I used to have one of the first classes with my students
    teaching them how to use a dictionary as I am not a "walking dictionary",
    sometimes I had to prove that nobody is perfect and even Poles do not know ALL
    Polish words.
    by the way I remember once, as a student, that we had a "wonderful" American
    teacher (it was at Warsaw University). the guy was really nice and smart,
    but.... we asked him for a word in English that we explained quite elaborately,
    if I may say so, and ... nothing. he couldn't say anything. finally someone
    remembered the word and he was very surprised because he didn't know it! the
    word was "embezzlement", nice, isn't it.

    have a nice day
  • maggie7 22.08.02, 15:21
    dear "brother"

    good point! We are not walking dictionaries... neither are native speakers :o)
    oh they are not...

    by the way, seems like we studied in the same building, maybe even on the same
    floor :o)

    see you around, Maggie
  • Gość: Aquarious IP: *.dhcp.adsl.tpnet.pl 18.08.02, 19:27
    Public schools are poor. They really suck. Teachers are OK but all this school system in Poland is pointless. If not privet lessons I would have naver learnt English.
    Peace out!
  • Gość: bin2 IP: *.uz.zgora.pl 20.08.02, 23:37
    I am sure it depends all what money teachers get.
    In a good country where care for their citizens is among the first preferance,
    the situation is very positive towards teaching staff. I hope you understand
    what I mean.
    Furthermore there are a lot of things to discuss but I am out of time now.
    If you wish to continue the topic in future, I appreciate.
  • Gość: kama IP: *.union01.nj.comcast.net 22.08.02, 05:53
    I hope you are not a teacher `cause the results would be disastrous.On the
    other hand, I believe that students majoring in english language studies may
    teach even before graduating ;moreover, they can be pretty good at doing so.
    It`s also unfair to generalize because individual abilities vary.However, I
    don`t understand how is that possible that people not connected with english
    language departments find jobs at schools.Strange as it is, it is the reality
    (and I`m not trying to be offensive).
    To the point, my answer is: "No, the majority of teachers is not qualified well
    enough to meet the needs and expectations of the requirements."
  • mouchi 22.08.02, 10:51
    Gość portalu: kama napisał(a):

    > I hope you are not a teacher `cause the results would be disastrous.On the
    > other hand, I believe that students majoring in english language studies may
    > teach even before graduating ;moreover, they can be pretty good at doing so.
    > It`s also unfair to generalize because individual abilities vary.However, I
    > don`t understand how is that possible that people not connected with english
    > language departments find jobs at schools.Strange as it is, it is the reality
    > (and I`m not trying to be offensive).
    > To the point, my answer is: "No, the majority of teachers is not qualified
    well
    >
    > enough to meet the needs and expectations of the requirements."


    as well as those who claim they are teachers because they finished 3-week
    course in London and they teach. I had students who previously had been taught
    by such cheaters. tragedy!
  • Gość: mysia2000 IP: *.icpnet.pl / *.icpnet.pl 22.08.02, 21:49
    just a few words more concerning "walking dictionaries" - my collegue starts
    her first class asking students to give them meaning of Polish words but very
    complicated ones - such as "filipika" ect. if they don't know (and they don't
    know) she tells them - "see, nobody knows everything even in their own native
    language" - what do you think of this method?
    I know that so many teachers in public schools suck but don't you think that
    reform in education system will change anything? the requirements are quite
    high...but those who were employed before reform can't be fired as there is a
    shortage of teachers in some places....
  • kociamama 15.09.02, 19:35
    Gość portalu: kama napisał(a):

    >.
    > It`s also unfair to generalize because individual abilities vary.However, I
    > don`t understand how is that possible that people not connected with english
    > language departments find jobs at schools.Strange as it is, it is the
    reality

    As ya said individual abilities vary. So why should we ban people "not
    connected with English language department" from schools? I think that the
    diploma or lack of it is not the reliable critirion. A sample lesson can
    indicate if the given person will amke a good teacher, has the right accent, a
    good command of English and teaching skills or talent. Unfortunately in
    practice not evry single university/college leaver is cut out for being a
    teacher and has appropriate language proficiency.
  • jrzy 16.09.02, 01:09
    I agree! Not everyone can be a good teacher - Polish or native speaker.
  • oddball 12.09.02, 13:17
    An interesting thread with too many generalisations.

    As with everything you have good and bad.

    There are bad Polish teachers, and good ones.

    Just as there are good natve speaking teachers, and bad ones.

    At the end of the day it's down to the student to learn.
  • Gość: kociamama IP: *.gdynia.cvx.ppp.tpnet.pl 12.09.02, 22:34
    What about native speakers teaching English??? Are they qualified enough? They
    are usually people who never fully learnt another language, or never learnt it
    at all. Rarely do they have a vague idea what might be of problem to the
    POles, as it would be tremendously comlicated for them to have a good command
    or at least to learn basic skills in such a difficult language.
    Moreover, they seem to think that we, as foreigners will never gain
    proficiency in their language, so following the rules of methodology they
    don't correct our mistakes in speaking as long as they are understandable.
    I opt for Polish teachers.
  • jrzy 16.09.02, 01:07
    It's not necessary to know Polish (or any first language) to teach another
    language.

  • magbak 13.09.02, 19:28
    There are many Polish teachers teaching with only FCE, and I'm sorry that just
    isn't good enough.

    Unless you're a complete beginner Native speaking teachers are better every
    time. That's why in rich countries like those in the middle east (Saudi Arabia
    etc.) all the teachers at high levels are from England or the USA. ONLY the
    lowest level work is done by teachers from those countries.
  • Gość: Prezes IP: *.ces.clemson.edu 13.09.02, 21:20
    magbak napisała:

    > There are many Polish teachers teaching with only FCE,
    and I'm sorry that just
    > isn't good enough.
    >
    > Unless you're a complete beginner Native speaking
    teachers are better every
    > time.

    You are right, provided that they are _teachers_
    not just native speakers of English.
    I agree with kociamama, that just being
    a native speaker is not good enough to teach other people.


    >That's why in rich countries like those in the middle
    east (Saudi Arabia
    > etc.) all the teachers at high levels are from England
    or the USA. ONLY the
    > lowest level work is done by teachers from those countries.

  • magbak 13.09.02, 21:29
    I agree with your point a "teacher" should be a teacher! Actually globally
    Poland is one of the few countries that accepts native speakers with no
    qualifications at all. Many of the ones I have met are of course well
    qualified, but, others have come because they want to see abit of the world
    before settling down to a real job in England or the USA. These teachers are
    best avoided.

    If your teacher is a well educated and qualified teacher I'd choose him every
    time over a Polish teacher. But the ones who worked as hairdressers or such in
    English speaking countries shouldn't be teaching here at all!



  • eliz123 14.09.02, 00:56
    Do you know any completely unqualified native speakers working as teachers?
  • kociamama 15.09.02, 19:43
    eliz123 napisała:

    > Do you know any completely unqualified native speakers working as teachers?

    I used to work with some native speakers in a private school. One American
    lady later resigned from her job to work on cruiseships as a waiter later on.
    Teachers/educated people don't consider it such a lucrative post as we in
    Poland, so it means something.
    Another guy, who also teaches in a public highschool conducted a loesson in
    such a way, that I can't imagine that any of the students could benefit from
    it. He was completely unprepared with no improvizing skills. Told the Ss to
    read out the text and didn't even bother to correct their mistakes. The lesson
    was extremely boring with no educational value.
  • nyo 16.09.02, 01:28
    kociamama napisała:

    > I used to work with some native speakers in a private school. One American
    > lady later resigned from her job to work on cruiseships as a waiter later on.
    In private schools the main concern is making money. So your story about the
    American waiter (sic) - waitress - could be true.

    > Teachers/educated people don't consider it such a lucrative post as we in
    > Poland, so it means something.

    Is everyone only intersted in money!?!

    > Another guy, who also teaches in a public highschool conducted a loesson in
    > such a way, that I can't imagine that any of the students could benefit from
    > it. He was completely unprepared with no improvizing skills. Told the Ss to
    > read out the text and didn't even bother to correct their mistakes. The
    lesson
    > was extremely boring with no educational value.

    I'd say reading your posts that you are jealous of native speakers!
  • Gość: kociamama IP: *.gdynia.cvx.ppp.tpnet.pl 18.09.02, 11:08
    What do you mean jealous of native speakers??? That's the most absurd argument
    to come up with!!!
  • kociamama 15.09.02, 19:09
    And this is the worst thing possible, that the worst teachers teach the lowest
    levels!!! Beginners require best teachers in order not to develop bad language
    habits.
    Referring to teachers with FCE only... Well, you're right in Poland it still
    happens, but alterations are being implemented gradually to make the teaching
    English process more professional.
    However, native speakers don't guarantee high quality. they may be simply
    frustrated people unable to find a job in their own country who,possibly take
    a qiuck course on methodology, but not necessarily. So it may happen that
    virtually illiterate people with no idea how to teach and little knowledge
    more appreciaTED than Polish professionals.
  • jrzy 16.09.02, 01:03
    If you're interested in qualifications - check them!

    The countries where most native speakers (Australia, USA, UK) come from don't
    have a problem with unemployment. The unemployment rate is under 5%. So people
    without a job there have no reason to come here and work for next to nothing!

    As the original post suggests it's Polish teachers who are under qualified.

    Unfortunately the level of education for Polish teachers is not high.
  • Gość: Prezes IP: *.ces.clemson.edu 19.09.02, 18:33
    jrzy napisał(a):

    > If you're interested in qualifications - check them!
    >
    > The countries where most native speakers (Australia,
    USA, UK) come from don't
    > have a problem with unemployment. The unemployment rate
    is under 5%. So people
    > without a job there have no reason to come here and
    work for next to nothing!
    >

    Of course, money is not the reason for most of them
    to come to Poland. I bet, quite often they have
    Polish spouses and their employment opportunities
    in Poland are rather limited.
    Teaching English seems to be the easiest choice.
    Unfortunately, the mere fact of being a native speaker
    of any language does not qualify you to teach it.

    > As the original post suggests it's Polish teachers who
    are under qualified.
    >
    > Unfortunately the level of education for Polish
    teachers is not high.

    That is probably true as well.
    The conclusion is: English teachers (native or otherwise)
    in Poland suck !

    (I apologize those of you, who do not suck.)
  • jamesbond007 14.09.02, 20:48
    short answer - no.

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