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"So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!"

IP: 209.148.249.* 27.06.03, 17:09
in one of the previous posts, the one on the dutch abortion clinic-ship,
agnes said, "So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!"

there is nothing one can add or subtract from it. i just wonder where all the
other OPEN-MINDED women of poland are to stand up for their OWN right to
decide for themselves about their own bodies. period.

or, have they all gone up to the church to ask the priest what is good for
them? what a shame!

sure, da-priest has a special license from pan bog to decide for you what is
right and what wrong, so that you don't have to make effort to do that for
yourself. this way he'll keep you morally indolent for the rest of your god-
dog life. but, doesn't he know how to sack up to you, ha, you proud
b....? 'congratulations'. o jezu.

a-man.

Edytor zaawansowany
  • Gość: 1 IP: 157.25.99.* 27.06.03, 19:05
    Unfortunately that argument could be used to leagalise a whole range of things.
    So let us drink drivers decide for ourselves! So let us drug addicts decide for
    ourselves! So let us tax evaders decide for ourselves! Don't talk crap.
    Why not go the whole way and request a society where everybody decides for
    themselves about everything they do? ie. Anarchy - sounds nice and trendy but I
    don't think we would want it in reality. Read 'Lord of the Flies' for example.
    The question is - should the law forbid abortion as a means of contraception or
    not? (This is of course what it is effectively being used for) The answer of
    course is NO! Why? Logically you can't contracept (if that's a word) something
    that's already happened. Women and Men (pregnancy happens because of a man and
    a woman) take responsibility for your actions! Sex is how babies are made so be
    careful -you know the risks. If you are not responsible enough to live with the
    consequences of your actions don't do it!!!If you have sex protect yourself -
    being aware, of course, that there is no 100% method.
  • Gość: chickenShorts IP: *.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr 27.06.03, 19:33
    Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):

    > Unfortunately that argument could be used to leagalise a whole range of
    things.
    >
    > So let us drink drivers decide for ourselves! So let us drug addicts decide
    for
    >
    > ourselves! So let us tax evaders decide for ourselves!

    You mean to equate women with drink drivers or drug addicts? And which group
    contains the one logical devil called '1'?

    >Don't talk crap.

    Ditto!

    > Why not go the whole way and request a society where everybody decides for
    > themselves about everything they do? ie. Anarchy - sounds nice and trendy but
    I
    >
    > don't think we would want it in reality. Read 'Lord of the Flies' for example.


    Can I ask you how old you are? You talk as though you haven't read anything
    else...


    > The question is - should the law forbid abortion as a means of contraception
    or
    >
    > not? (This is of course what it is effectively being used for)

    You are a mega-troll!

  • Gość: 1 IP: 157.25.99.* 27.06.03, 20:30
    Maybe you'd like to counterargue and not just offend. I'm not equating women
    with anything, merely giving examples of what happens when you use poor
    justification/argument. Age 34 by the way and fairly well read - difficult to
    judge. What about you chickenshorts?

    Gość portalu: chickenShorts napisał(a):

    > Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):
    >
    > > Unfortunately that argument could be used to leagalise a whole range of
    > things.
    > >
    > > So let us drink drivers decide for ourselves! So let us drug addicts decid
    > e
    > for
    > >
    > > ourselves! So let us tax evaders decide for ourselves!
    >
    > You mean to equate women with drink drivers or drug addicts? And which group
    > contains the one logical devil called '1'?
    >
    > >Don't talk crap.
    >
    > Ditto!
    >
    > > Why not go the whole way and request a society where everybody decides for
    >
    > > themselves about everything they do? ie. Anarchy - sounds nice and trendy
    > but
    > I
    > >
    > > don't think we would want it in reality. Read 'Lord of the Flies' for exam
    > ple.
    >
    >
    > Can I ask you how old you are? You talk as though you haven't read anything
    > else...
    >
    >
    > > The question is - should the law forbid abortion as a means of contracepti
    > on
    > or
    > >
    > > not? (This is of course what it is effectively being used for)
    >
    > You are a mega-troll!
    >
  • Gość: awalk IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 27.06.03, 21:44
    Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):

    > Unfortunately that argument could be used to leagalise a whole range of things.
    >
    > So let us drink drivers decide for ourselves!

    Why not? I don't care if I am run over by a drunk or sober driver.

    >So let us drug addicts decide for
    > ourselves! So let us tax evaders decide for ourselves!

    themselves. Again it is their problem and I understand these are drug dealers that are punished not drug addicts.

    >Don't talk crap.

    please don't use offensive words. There is no need for them unless this is your purpose.

    > Why not go the whole way and request a society where everybody decides for
    > themselves about everything they do? ie. Anarchy - sounds nice and trendy but I don't think we would want it in reality.

    You are right, but we have anarchy in Poland already in reality. I don't think abortion is anarchy anyway.

    Read 'Lord of the Flies' for example.
    > The question is - should the law forbid abortion as a means of contraception or
    not? (This is of course what it is effectively being used for) The answer of
    > course is NO! Why? Logically you can't contracept (if that's a word) something that's already happened.

    You are wrong abortion is not contraception.

    Women and Men (pregnancy happens because of a man and
    > a woman) take responsibility for your actions! Sex is how babies are made so be careful -you know the risks. If you are not responsible enough to live with the consequences of your actions don't do it!!!If you have sex protect yourself being aware, of course, that there is no 100% method.

    Sex has nothing to do with responsibility. Young people are programmed (chemistry) to have sex and they can't help it (Nature not God).

    Finally, why do you think abortion in majority of the countries in Europe is legal? Do you think they lost their mind? Well let me tell you, you are minority. Most people in Europe disagree with your point of view. It is democracy not anarchy.
  • Gość: 1 IP: *.visp.energis.pl 28.06.03, 16:08
    Again I think you misunderstand. I am trying to show that the form of argument
    used is senseless and not compare women who believe in abortion to these
    examples, I am also not saying that abortion is anarchy, but that the form of
    argument has its natural end in anarchy. If you read a little more carefully
    you will see that I am inferring, too, that abortion is not contraception. I
    am in total agreement with you. The unfortunate fact is that abortion is being
    used as contraception which is the point I am making.
    As far as your point about young people being programmed for sex - it's simply
    not true in the sense you are saying. Humans have certain instincts towards
    food, sex, staying alive generally but I don't think most people whether young
    or old consider themselves robots. I personally believe I have will of my own
    and am able to take responsibility for my actions without blaming some idea of
    programming. Watch the film Natural Born Killers or read the book Popcorn (Ben
    Elton) for comment on this topic. People need to take responsibility for their
    actions - it's not simple and it's certainly not convenient always but that's
    life. Let's not turn our consiences off.
    As far as most countries or people believing differently from me, I am afraid
    that that is no argument. Mohammed was rather in the minority when he was
    around and look how people agree with him now, Jesus and Galileo too, amongst
    a million others. (please don't think I am putting myself in their league). If
    you were to show an abortion taking place and then asked the audience to
    comment as to whether they were pro or anti abortion I think the answer would
    be unanimous - Anti. Maybe you should be proud of the fact that Poland could
    actually be one of the few countries in Europe with at least some form of a
    moral and ethical backbone.


    Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

    > Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):
    >
    > > Unfortunately that argument could be used to leagalise a whole range of th
    > ings.
    > >
    > > So let us drink drivers decide for ourselves!
    >
    > Why not? I don't care if I am run over by a drunk or sober driver.
    >
    > >So let us drug addicts decide for
    > > ourselves! So let us tax evaders decide for ourselves!
    >
    > themselves. Again it is their problem and I understand these are drug
    dealers t
    > hat are punished not drug addicts.
    >
    > >Don't talk crap.
    >
    > please don't use offensive words. There is no need for them unless this is
    your
    > purpose.
    >
    > > Why not go the whole way and request a society where everybody decides for
    >
    > > themselves about everything they do? ie. Anarchy - sounds nice and trendy
    > but I don't think we would want it in reality.
    >
    > You are right, but we have anarchy in Poland already in reality. I don't
    think
    > abortion is anarchy anyway.
    >
    > Read 'Lord of the Flies' for example.
    > > The question is - should the law forbid abortion as a means of contracepti
    > on or
    > not? (This is of course what it is effectively being used for) The answer of
    > > course is NO! Why? Logically you can't contracept (if that's a word) somet
    > hing that's already happened.
    >
    > You are wrong abortion is not contraception.
    >
    > Women and Men (pregnancy happens because of a man and
    > > a woman) take responsibility for your actions! Sex is how babies are made
    > so be careful -you know the risks. If you are not responsible enough to live
    wi
    > th the consequences of your actions don't do it!!!If you have sex protect
    yours
    > elf being aware, of course, that there is no 100% method.
    >
    > Sex has nothing to do with responsibility. Young people are programmed
    (chemist
    > ry) to have sex and they can't help it (Nature not God).
    >
    > Finally, why do you think abortion in majority of the countries in Europe is
    le
    > gal? Do you think they lost their mind? Well let me tell you, you are
    minority.
    > Most people in Europe disagree with your point of view. It is democracy not
    an
    > archy.
  • Gość: awalk IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 28.06.03, 19:24
    Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):

    > Again I think you misunderstand. I am trying to show that the form of argument
    > used is senseless and not compare women who believe in abortion to these
    > examples, I am also not saying that abortion is anarchy, but that the form of
    > argument has its natural end in anarchy. If you read a little more carefully
    > you will see that I am inferring, too, that abortion is not contraception. I
    > am in total agreement with you. The unfortunate fact is that abortion is being
    > used as contraception which is the point I am making.

    It is true that abortion might be used as a contraceptive to control number of people in a population but I don't believe they do it even in China where they are desperate. I don't believe anybody in their right mind in any government in the Word would use it for that purpose. Not to mention that other ways of preventing unwanted pregnancy are cheaper and safer.

    > As far as your point about young people being programmed for sex - it's simply
    > not true in the sense you are saying. Humans have certain instincts towards
    > food, sex, staying alive generally but I don't think most people whether young
    > or old consider themselves robots. I personally believe I have will of my own
    > and am able to take responsibility for my actions without blaming some idea
    >of programming.

    Good programming allows you certain freedom of decision; you may call it a will of your own. In some cases even celibacy is possible but the experience shows it is rare even among catholic priests.

    Responibility is another rare animal.

    By the way, in English language the word chemistry means also attraction between two people. I think it very well illustrates the simple truth that we are programmed and controlled by various chemicals.

    >Watch the film Natural Born Killers or read the book Popcorn (Ben
    > Elton) for comment on this topic. People need to take responsibility for their
    > actions - it's not simple and it's certainly not convenient always but that's
    > life.

    This is another very broad subject but of no relevance here.

    >Let's not turn our consiences off.
    > As far as most countries or people believing differently from me, I am afraid
    > that that is no argument. Mohammed was rather in the minority when he was
    > around and look how people agree with him now, Jesus and Galileo too, amongst
    > a million others. (please don't think I am putting myself in their league).

    I compare nations not you and other people. I am saying we (the Polish Nation) are minority in Europe; even in Italy and Spain (catholic countries ) abortion is legal. I am an atheist so Jesus and Mohammed are not good examples. As for Galileo you have put him in a strange company indeed.

    >If
    > you were to show an abortion taking place and then asked the audience to
    > comment as to whether they were pro or anti abortion I think the answer would
    > be unanimous - Anti.

    This is not a fair argument. Most people are afraid of the sight of blood and operations; they don't like killing even a carp for Christmas, but they still do.

    >Maybe you should be proud of the fact that Poland could
    > actually be one of the few countries in Europe with at least some form of a
    > moral and ethical backbone.

    I am certainly not proud of it, and I don't find here anything moral or ethical.

    I think the bottom line is that you are a religious person, so abortion is against your set of values. Therefore we may argue here forever without being able to convince each other. But let me make a prediction. In a few years from now the Pope will die, and then very soon abortion will be legalized in Poland, and we will join EU also in that respect; and when it happens, then I will be proud.
  • kingfish 27.06.03, 19:58
    nt
    --
    Kingfish
  • kingfish 27.06.03, 20:53
    It is unfortunate some people would like to force their will on others.

    If you don’t like abortion, don’t have it.
    If you don’t like death penalty, don’t commit a crime for which you could be
    put to death for.
    If you are not for taking your own life, don’t do it.

    Live your life in accordance with you own believes and let the other people do
    the same.

    SIMPLE!


    --
    Kingfish
  • Gość: 1 IP: *.visp.energis.pl 28.06.03, 16:15
    If only it was that simple and all humans had similar high levels of morality.
    Someone has to look out for and protect the rights of those who for a variety
    of reasons cannot do so for themselves. Hence the success and popularity of
    organisations like Amnesty International, Oxfam, Merlin, to name but a few.
  • Gość: sleepy IP: 209.148.235.* 29.06.03, 02:43
    1 wrote, "If only it was that simple and all humans had similar high levels of
    morality. Someone has to look out for and protect the rights of those who for a
    variety of reasons cannot do so for themselves. "

    What rights have those that do not exist? None. Who gave you right to decide
    for women? Nobody.
    What is a right? Right is obligation and protection given someone worth it, by
    society. Women should have the right from our society to decide themselves
    about their bodies, not you. It's women's good judgment against your desire to
    regulate them. You just need a pretext to have control over them. I believe
    they are capable of good judgment, and should have the option to exercise it,
    not you, a self-appointed morality guard. Why you do that, to keep your job as
    a priest or just out of desire to feel powerful over them? Or because you are
    unable to cohabit with them in another way?
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 29.06.03, 05:41
    Dear sleepy, my rights are not given to me by the society.
    If the society gives me the right the the same society can take it away.
    Therefore it is a privilege. Like a driver's license.

    Think again. Where are the righys come from?
  • Gość: sleepy IP: 209.148.237.* 29.06.03, 05:53
    i am not sure if i get your point, wacko; it would seem that you confirm my
    idea that it is society that grants you the right to operate a vehicle, and it
    can take it away from you if you drink and drive, for example.
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 29.06.03, 18:18
    Gość portalu: sleepy napisał(a):

    > i am not sure if i get your point, wacko; it would seem that you confirm my
    > idea that it is society that grants you the right to operate a vehicle, and
    > it can take it away from you if you drink and drive, for example.

    My point is that your rights do not came from society or the government.
    The rights are not granted to you for good behavior.
    You don't have a right to drive a motor vehicle. The government grants you a
    privilege to do that under certain conditions. The rights are unconditional.

    I think that you are confusing rights with privileges.
  • Gość: awalk IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 30.06.03, 09:15
    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

    > Gość portalu: sleepy napisał(a):
    >
    > > i am not sure if i get your point, wacko; it would seem that you confirm m
    > y
    > > idea that it is society that grants you the right to operate a vehicle, an
    > d
    > > it can take it away from you if you drink and drive, for example.
    >
    > My point is that your rights do not came from society or the government.
    > The rights are not granted to you for good behavior.
    > You don't have a right to drive a motor vehicle. The government grants you a
    > privilege to do that under certain conditions. The rights are unconditional.
    >
    > I think that you are confusing rights with privileges.

    Waco I am afraid you have created your own definitions of words 'right' and 'privilege' and now you want us to use them. And what do you mean by unconditional rights anyway? Well, whatever they are, getting back to the subject women must be granted the right/privilege in Poland to make their own decision. I don't think they will overuse it.
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 30.06.03, 18:11
    You've just hit the nail, brother.
    There is a difference in a common understanding of the term "rights" in US and
    Europe.
    In Europe the abortion is a privilege granted by the government.
    In USA it is based on a right to privacy.
    Read bill of rights.
  • Gość: 1 IP: 157.25.99.* 30.06.03, 09:15
    Yes I am a father although not in the religious sense. As a father I know
    pretty much exactly when each of my 2 children started to exist - approximately
    9 months before they were born. If you talk to any pregnant woman they try to
    take care about the environment their unborn baby is growing in- regarding
    their own stress levels, diet, the music they listen to, etc. A child exists in
    the womb.
    I agree with the main tenets of feminism which try to protect the basic rights
    of a woman. But cannot agree to the notion that this is a matter of women's
    rights - it just doesn't make sense. As far as that feisty claptrap of men
    imposing control etc etc - don't overreact and stick to sensible discussion.
    You'll find more woemn than men are opposed to abortion. Another thing - why do
    you have to get so insulting in your tone?

    What rights have those that do not exist? None. Who gave you right to decide
    for women? Nobody.
    What is a right? Right is obligation and protection given someone worth it, by
    society. Women should have the right from our society to decide themselves
    about their bodies, not you. It's women's good judgment against your desire to
    regulate them. You just need a pretext to have control over them. I believe
    they are capable of good judgment, and should have the option to exercise it,
    not you, a self-appointed morality guard. Why you do that, to keep your job as
    a priest or just out of desire to feel powerful over them? Or because you are
    unable to cohabit with them in another way?




  • Gość: sleepy IP: 209.148.248.* 30.06.03, 17:43
    o gee, 1... there is a terrible news this morning, have u heard it? and u may
    be able to help. it all came to light as i was just thinking about what u meant
    when u said, "I know pretty much exactly when each of my 2 children started to
    exist - approximately 9 months before they were born..."

    well, i heard that a baby was thrown out of a 10th floor apartment window onto
    the concrete sidewalk right below it... o gee-zeus...horrible, isn't it? but if
    u hurry up, u might be able to save it... yes, there is a consolation in all
    this tragic accident, though.... the baby is pretty much safe in a condom....
    so go and caress it.
  • Gość: awalk IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 30.06.03, 08:47
    Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):

    > If only it was that simple and all humans had similar high levels of morality.
    > Someone has to look out for and protect the rights of those who for a variety
    > of reasons cannot do so for themselves. Hence the success and popularity of
    > organisations like Amnesty International, Oxfam, Merlin, to name but a few.


    And who is supposed to be that someone? Experience and history show that such people or groups of people, sooner or later instead of protecting 'those who for a variety of reasons cannot do so for themselves', use the ones for their own benefit. Next problem is the morality; according to my knowledge there are many, and everybody is absolutely convinced that theirs is the right and the only one.
  • Gość: 1 IP: 157.25.99.* 30.06.03, 12:48
    Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

    > Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):
    >
    > > If only it was that simple and all humans had similar high levels of moral
    > ity.
    > > Someone has to look out for and protect the rights of those who for a vari
    > ety
    > > of reasons cannot do so for themselves. Hence the success and popularity o
    > f
    > > organisations like Amnesty International, Oxfam, Merlin, to name but a few
    > .
    >
    >
    > And who is supposed to be that someone? Experience and history show that such
    p
    > eople or groups of people, sooner or later instead of protecting 'those who
    for
    > a variety of reasons cannot do so for themselves', use the ones for their
    own
    > benefit.


    Could you give me a few examples of that from history and experience?


    Next problem is the morality; according to my knowledge there are many
    > , and everybody is absolutely convinced that theirs is the right and the only
    o
    > ne.

    A good start might be The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
    (www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) or if people were to abide by the
    rules of their religion be it Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist etc. The trouble with
    everyone having their own morality is that it leads to the extremes we see in
    the world today.
  • Gość: awalk IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 30.06.03, 15:17
    Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):


    >
    >
    > Could you give me a few examples of that from history and experience?
    >

    So you want to go into details, please be my guest '1': Roman Catholic Church from my experience and all other religious organizations from the history; our Polish politicians from my experience and all other politicians in the World; our Polish judges and prosecutors and all others; oh! and a very large group - bureaucrats etc. etc. Please don't ask me for their addresses or telephone numbers - they are in telephone directories.
    >
    > Next problem is the morality; according to my knowledge there are many
    > > , and everybody is absolutely convinced that theirs is the right and the o
    > nly
    > o
    > > ne.
    >
    > A good start might be The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
    > (www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) or if people were to abide by the
    > rules of their religion be it Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist etc. The trouble with
    > everyone having their own morality is that it leads to the extremes we see in
    > the world today.

    I agree but this is my point, and let me repeat myself, experience and history show that it is impossible to change. So any good solution to that problem should take into account our human nature, otherwise however beautiful it is, it is worthless. To be precise when I say human nature I mean our negative character traits. All beautiful declarations and rules, Communist, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist etc. have already been tried and haven't worked, so it doesn,t make sense to use them again. That is why I will not read "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights" because I know what I will find there - a lot of beautiful words and ideas without any connection to reality.
  • Gość: 1 IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 15:57
    Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

    > Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):
    >
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > Could you give me a few examples of that from history and experience?
    > >
    >
    > So you want to go into details, please be my guest '1': Roman Catholic Church
    f
    > rom my experience and all other religious organizations from the history; our
    P
    > olish politicians from my experience and all other politicians in the World;
    ou
    > r Polish judges and prosecutors and all others; oh! and a very large group -
    bu
    > reaucrats etc. etc. Please don't ask me for their addresses or telephone
    numbe
    > rs - they are in telephone directories.

    Sorry, I wasn't talking about governments - they are more often than not the
    problem, organised religion too. This is why such NGOs which are
    sometimes/sometimes not loosely related to religious groups exist.

    > >
    > > Next problem is the morality; according to my knowledge there are many
    > > > , and everybody is absolutely convinced that theirs is the right and
    > the o
    > > nly
    > > o
    > > > ne.
    > >
    > > A good start might be The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
    > > (www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) or if people were to abide by the
    > > rules of their religion be it Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist etc. The trouble
    > with
    > > everyone having their own morality is that it leads to the extremes we see
    > in
    > > the world today.
    >
    > I agree but this is my point, and let me repeat myself, experience and
    history
    > show that it is impossible to change. So any good solution to that problem
    shou
    > ld take into account our human nature, otherwise however beautiful it is, it
    is
    > worthless. To be precise when I say human nature I mean our negative
    character
    > traits. All beautiful declarations and rules, Communist, Catholic, Muslim,
    Bud
    > dhist etc. have already been tried and haven't worked, so it doesn,t make
    sense
    > to use them again. That is why I will not read "The Universal Declaration of
    H
    > uman Rights" because I know what I will find there - a lot of beautiful words
    a
    > nd ideas without any connection to reality.


    I have to agree. There is no hope for humanity as it is today. We are, in
    reality, a pretty useless lot if you look at all the crap that goes on in the
    world. But that is no argument for allowing it to get crappier.

    As for all those 'beautiful declarations' you talk about : personally, I
    believe that Jesus is the only answer, only hope and only way (He actually
    claims this of himself). If we all had the relationship with God that he had
    then we would be in the mess we are in today. I recommend you try reading the
    good old book in a modern translation - try the gospel of John for a start.
    You'll find hope there.
    (By the way, I am talking about the Jesus as presented in the bible and not
    about the poor imitation who is represented by certain religions and has been
    used as an excuse for war and oppression.)
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 28.06.03, 18:29
    Mister 1 is absolutely right in his assessment of the present state of the
    highly politicized argument regarding the abortion.
    The advocates of the abortion rights do not see beyond the tips of their noses.

    Question: Why is suicide against the law?

    I just can't wait for the day when they discover the gay gene. The day when
    parents will know the sexual orientation of their unborn child.
    Can you imagine all gays being against the abortion at that point.
    Can you imagine the demonstrations? In front of Capitol? In front of the White
    House? It's going to be fun.
  • chickenshorts 28.06.03, 18:35
    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

    > Mister 1 is absolutely right in his assessment of the present state of the
    > highly politicized argument regarding the abortion.
    > The advocates of the abortion rights do not see beyond the tips of their
    noses.
    >
    > Question: Why is suicide against the law?
    >
    > I just can't wait for the day when they discover the gay gene. The day when
    > parents will know the sexual orientation of their unborn child.
    > Can you imagine all gays being against the abortion at that point.
    > Can you imagine the demonstrations? In front of Capitol? In front of the
    White
    > House? It's going to be fun.

    ...said never doubting & crystal clear W-J!
  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 29.06.03, 02:10
    Mister sophisticated chickenshorts you don't understand the argument.
    To add to your confusion I hearby declare that I am not opposed to the
    women having the right to an abortion. What say you?
  • i.p.freely 30.06.03, 15:52
    about my reproductive life. After all, it is my uterus, my ovaries and MY LIFE
    all you guys are blabbing about.

    I am not religious, though I have nothing against religion of others, as long
    as the 'others' do not impose their misguided believes on ME!

    It is still a matter of heated debate when life begins. To some, a clump of
    devided cells is life, to me it is not. It is just that, a microscopic clump,
    that at some point in time becomes capable of 'living'.



  • Gość: wacko jacko IP: *.nyc.rr.com 30.06.03, 18:06
    It is a very simplistic approach. The issue of abortion has two aspects, moral
    and legal. What is legal is not neccessarily moral and vice versa.
    Some say that morality cannot be legislated. Well, we do it all the time.
    My question is where are the rights of the father?
    Let's say that he wants her to abort the pregnancy which she wants to carry to
    a term. Who gets to make that decision?
    And that cluster of divided cells is not going to turn to a fish or an
    elephant.
    So far I see only the extremes. One side says: Let me do whatever I want with
    my body. The other side shouts: Abortion is murder.
    I wonder what are the chances for a compromise?
  • Gość: awalk IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 30.06.03, 19:06
    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

    > ...My question is where are the rights of the father?

    www.tata.pl :)

    > Let's say that he wants her to abort the pregnancy which she wants to carry to
    > a term. Who gets to make that decision?

    But of course it is her right because it is her body not his.

    > ...So far I see only the extremes. One side says: Let me do whatever I want with
    > my body. The other side shouts: Abortion is murder.

    I'd put it differently. One side shouts let me make decisions about myself and other says No way Jose, you will do exactly the way we tell you.

    > I wonder what are the chances for a compromise?

    I don't think there is the slightest chance for that.
  • Gość: 1 IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 13:46
    Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

    > Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):
    >
    > > ...My question is where are the rights of the father?
    >
    > www.tata.pl :)
    >
    > > Let's say that he wants her to abort the pregnancy which she wants to carr
    > y to
    > > a term. Who gets to make that decision?
    >
    > But of course it is her right because it is her body not his.


    Very simplistic 'awalk' - what is inside her body is also his - it's a joint
    venture.
    >

    > > ...So far I see only the extremes. One side says: Let me do whatever I wan
    > t with
    > > my body. The other side shouts: Abortion is murder.
    >
    > I'd put it differently. One side shouts let me make decisions about myself
    and
    > other says No way Jose, you will do exactly the way we tell you.

    Why don't you try to argue a point and not come out with that crap. In a large
    proportion of your life you don't make decisions about yourself. Society (human
    or otherwise) must have rules in order to survive. You can't be a selfish,
    irresponsible individual if you want to cos that leads to the destruction of
    society. That's life in the 21st century. The question is - should society
    impose laws which prohibit the use of abortion as a way of getting rid of an
    accidental problem. Abortion in Poland is legal in the extreme cases where it
    is justifiable. It shouldn't be possible for people to kill babies willy-nilly.
    >
    > > I wonder what are the chances for a compromise?
    >
    > I don't think there is the slightest chance for that.
    Compromise is not always a good thing. I don't see a workable compromise to be
    made. Either we respect human life and forbid abortion, keeping the present
    reasonable laws or we go the whole way and allow people to kill as much as they
    want.
    If 50% of aborted children are female it seems to me that feminism is doing a
    good job of reducing its future numbers. They say that 185 000 legal abortions
    performed in the UK in 2001 which is 90 000 possible future feminist recruits.
    Strange way of doing business.
  • butter_fly 01.07.03, 14:15
    Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):

    > Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):
    >
    > > Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):
    > >
    > > > ...My question is where are the rights of the father?
    > >
    > > www.tata.pl :)
    > >
    > > > Let's say that he wants her to abort the pregnancy which she wants to
    > carr
    > > y to
    > > > a term. Who gets to make that decision?
    > >
    > > But of course it is her right because it is her body not his.
    >
    >
    > Very simplistic 'awalk' - what is inside her body is also his - it's a joint
    > venture.
    > >
    >
    > > > ...So far I see only the extremes. One side says: Let me do whatever
    > I wan
    > > t with
    > > > my body. The other side shouts: Abortion is murder.
    > >
    > > I'd put it differently. One side shouts let me make decisions about myself
    >
    > and
    > > other says No way Jose, you will do exactly the way we tell you.
    >
    > Why don't you try to argue a point and not come out with that crap. In a
    large
    > proportion of your life you don't make decisions about yourself. Society
    (human
    >
    > or otherwise) must have rules in order to survive. You can't be a selfish,
    > irresponsible individual if you want to cos that leads to the destruction of
    > society. That's life in the 21st century. The question is - should society
    > impose laws which prohibit the use of abortion as a way of getting rid of an
    > accidental problem. Abortion in Poland is legal in the extreme cases where it
    > is justifiable. It shouldn't be possible for people to kill babies willy-
    nilly.

    1, why don't you try to understand that number of abortions carried out has
    nothing to do with its being legal or illegal. Although it's illegal it happens
    very often and it's just a matter of money. The more 'she' has the safer it is.
    Just ask among young people, just do it. I happen to talk to ppl a lot and
    young ppl too. For me - whether abortion is legal or not - it makes no
    difference. And why not try preventing instead of duscussing such an issue?
    Improving sexual education, making contraception cheaper; that would definitely
    lead to some decrease in the number of abortions in Poland.
    By the way - as for the legal cases of abortion - there were cases when the
    doctors put off decicion making, until ot was too late; On the other hand with
    the help of the right amount of money, a few cases became suddenly leagal.
  • butter_fly 01.07.03, 14:24
    It annoys me terribly when people talk about things being legal or illigan not
    considering facts and the reality. Really, in France, when abortion was illegal
    it was impossible to have it done; But we are in Poland and whatever the law
    says... no difference
  • Gość: 1 IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 15:29
    butter_fly napisała:

    > It annoys me terribly when people talk about things being legal or illigan
    not
    > considering facts and the reality. Really, in France, when abortion was
    illegal
    >
    > it was impossible to have it done; But we are in Poland and whatever the law
    > says... no difference

    Of course abortion in Poland will always be available illegally and people
    won't be prosecuted due to the state of the system here. The point is that the
    law should do its upmost to protect those that cannot protect themselves.
    On top of this the education and health systems should do their bit to prevent
    unwanted pregnancies and the church should start acting to help those
    considering abortion rather than damning them.
  • Gość: 1 IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 15:22
    butter_fly napisała:

    > 1, why don't you try to understand that number of abortions carried out has
    > nothing to do with its being legal or illegal. Although it's illegal it
    happens very often and it's just a matter of money. The more 'she' has the
    safer it is.
    >

    I have to disagree with you, there, butterfly. If abortion was legalised the
    number of abortions carried out would rise.

    > Just ask among young people, just do it. I happen to talk to ppl a lot and
    > young ppl too. For me - whether abortion is legal or not - it makes no
    > difference. And why not try preventing instead of duscussing such an issue?
    > Improving sexual education, making contraception cheaper; that would
    definitely lead to some decrease in the number of abortions in Poland.
    > By the way - as for the legal cases of abortion - there were cases when the
    > doctors put off decicion making, until ot was too late; On the other hand
    with the help of the right amount of money, a few cases became suddenly leagal.

    As to the rest of your reply I couldn't agree more. Education, which explains
    the dangers of unprotected sex and the choices available when someone has an
    unwanted pregnancy, (including explaining abortion and its psychological and
    often physical consequences).
  • Gość: 1 IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 13:51
    i.p.freely napisał:

    > about my reproductive life. After all, it is my uterus, my ovaries and MY LIFE
    > all you guys are blabbing about.
    >
    > I am not religious, though I have nothing against religion of others, as long
    > as the 'others' do not impose their misguided believes on ME!

    It's not about religion it's about society and the law and the law is always
    imposed on you.
    >
    > It is still a matter of heated debate when life begins. To some, a clump of
    > devided cells is life, to me it is not. It is just that, a microscopic clump,
    > that at some point in time becomes capable of 'living'.
    >
    > The problem is that what you think about when life begins is scientifically
    wrong. Life begins at conception otherwise the thing wouldn't grow. Yes it is
    your uterus and ovaries but the baby inside is also partly your partner's. It's
    also part of him. Where are Men's Rights?
  • i.p.freely 01.07.03, 16:12
    Gosc 1 napisal/a
    <It's not about religion it's about society and the law and the law is always
    imposed on you.>
    ********
    It's not about religion. Oh, please spare me....Did it occur to you that that
    country of ours is a thinly veiled theocracy? In your opinion just who shapes
    moral convictions in that great country of ours?
    Moreover, nothing is done, no law is passed if it does not meet the approval
    of the official church of Poland.
    How about people like me, that do not share religious views of the majority?
    How is it that in a 'so-called democratic' nation I cannot contribute to
    shaping those laws? After all that womb belongs to me, not to some imaginary
    god, not to the government, not to the female next door.

    People like me have no intention of FORCING ABORTION. I would like to BE LEFT
    THE HELL ALONE IF and WHEN I MAKE THE DECISION TO HAVE ONE. It is, foremost, a
    matter of MY OWN CONSCIENCE and MY FUTURE. After all I might be uneducated,
    unemployed, having one too many children already and pregnant again!!!!!

    Gosc 1 napisal/a
    < The problem is that what you think about when life begins is scientifically
    wrong. Life begins at conception otherwise the thing wouldn't grow. Yes it is
    your uterus and ovaries but the baby inside is also partly your partner's.
    It's
    also part of him. Where are Men's Rights?>
    **********
    Eveything starts with some or other form of conception, process not exclusive
    to humans afterall. One cell meets the other cell, they smile at each other,
    join and start dividing.... The question is - can we call this clump HUMAN
    BEING?
    If we can... call me a murderer for I might have passed several of those human
    beings in my monthly menses. So, who is wrong my friend?

    "Where are Men's rights?" - you ask. Usually they end the second the 'little
    feller' meets the smiling egg, he he he... Ask around. I am sure you will find
    some guys that wish they kept the fly zipped up.






  • Gość: 1 IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 20:41
    i.p.freely napisał:

    > Gosc 1 napisal/a
    > <It's not about religion it's about society and the law and the law is alway
    > s
    > imposed on you.>
    > ********
    > It's not about religion. Oh, please spare me....Did it occur to you that that
    > country of ours is a thinly veiled theocracy? In your opinion just who shapes
    > moral convictions in that great country of ours?
    > Moreover, nothing is done, no law is passed if it does not meet the approval
    > of the official church of Poland.
    > How about people like me, that do not share religious views of the majority?
    > How is it that in a 'so-called democratic' nation I cannot contribute to
    > shaping those laws? After all that womb belongs to me, not to some imaginary
    > god, not to the government, not to the female next door.

    You live in a democracy, the majority voted as they did, you have the
    government you have. If enough people voted for a non-catholic loving party
    then you'd have a different situation - but they didn't. That's life. Imagine
    the next government with Lepper and Giertych in cohorts, God forbid. Do you
    prefer democracy or autocracy?
    Sure your womb is yours but what's inside is also his.

    >
    > People like me have no intention of FORCING ABORTION. I would like to BE LEFT
    > THE HELL ALONE IF and WHEN I MAKE THE DECISION TO HAVE ONE. It is, foremost,
    a
    > matter of MY OWN CONSCIENCE and MY FUTURE. After all I might be uneducated,
    > unemployed, having one too many children already and pregnant again!!!!!
    >
    Which is a great reason to kill your baby.

    > Gosc 1 napisal/a
    > < The problem is that what you think about when life begins is scientificall
    > y
    > wrong. Life begins at conception otherwise the thing wouldn't grow. Yes it is
    > your uterus and ovaries but the baby inside is also partly your partner's.
    > It's
    > also part of him. Where are Men's Rights?>
    > **********
    > Eveything starts with some or other form of conception, process not exclusive
    > to humans afterall. One cell meets the other cell, they smile at each other,
    > join and start dividing.... The question is - can we call this clump HUMAN
    > BEING?
    > If we can... call me a murderer for I might have passed several of those
    human
    > beings in my monthly menses. So, who is wrong my friend?
    >
    Certain things happen by nature, including of course the sad fact of
    miscarriage, too. Maybe you could try explaining your views to a woman who has
    had several miscarriages and can't have a baby. She'd also like to have a
    choice.

    > "Where are Men's rights?" - you ask. Usually they end the second the 'little
    > feller' meets the smiling egg, he he he... Ask around.

    Why?

    I am sure you will find some guys that wish they kept the fly zipped up.

    I'm sure I would. They are equally responsible for the life created and
    shouldn't duck the question and pressurise for an abortion. If you can't live
    with the responsibility of the consequences of sex, don't do it.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
  • i.p.freely 01.07.03, 21:52
    Gosc 1 napisal/a
    "Which is a great reason to kill your baby."

    To kill my baby?
    How can I KILL anything that does not exist yet?
    It becomes a BABY when it comes out of the oven my friend.

    Don't get me wrong, I do respect life but what is more important MY LIFE or
    THAT OF THE FETUS. Who needs who in here?
  • Gość: 1 IP: 157.25.99.* 02.07.03, 12:38
    i.p.freely napisał:

    > Gosc 1 napisal/a
    > "Which is a great reason to kill your baby."
    >
    > To kill my baby?
    > How can I KILL anything that does not exist yet?
    But 'IT' does exist. When does it have a heart beat? When does it have arms and
    legs, eyes? "It's" got human DNA, as opposed to any other creature's.

    > It becomes a BABY when it comes out of the oven my friend.
    Check you Ultrasound at about 3 months - it sure looks like a baby.

    > Don't get me wrong, I do respect life but what is more important MY LIFE or
    > THAT OF THE FETUS. Who needs who in here?

    If your life is in physical danger Polish law allows for abortion.

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