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Polska wymowa angielskiego

IP: *.proxy.aol.com 04.11.03, 02:37
Czy w Polsce nauczyciele uczą wymawiać angielskie "A" jak polskie "E"?
Bezustannie się z tym spotykam. Jeśli tak to jak oni rozeóżniają w wymowie
man - men
bad - bed
end - and
itd.
Inne przykłady niefortunnej wymowy:
heat - hit
beat - bit
tree - three ( coś kosztuje "tri" dolars lub "fri" dolars)
Co tam jeszcze?
Obserwuj wątek
    • Gość: awalk Re: Amerykanka wymowa polskiego IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 04.11.03, 12:44
      Gość portalu: Tamtejszy napisał(a):

      > Czy w Polsce nauczyciele uczą wymawiać angielskie "A" jak polskie "E"?
      > Bezustannie się z tym spotykam. Jeśli tak to jak oni rozeóżniają w wymowie
      > man - men
      > bad - bed
      > end - and
      > itd.
      > Inne przykłady niefortunnej wymowy:
      > heat - hit
      > beat - bit
      > tree - three ( coś kosztuje "tri" dolars lub "fri" dolars)
      > Co tam jeszcze?

      How about Americans speaking Polish for a change?

      When they say 'Polish kielbasa' they pronounce it in such a way that most Polish people think they are joking. How about Kosciuszko that sounds in their mouths a like 'koscijasko'. The other day in a subway I heard a conversation between two Americans. One was explaining to another that in Polish it was not 'koscijasko' but 'kosijasko'. But let's not talk about their pronunciation, which is most funny. Let's examine some of their expressions:

      'Ja sie z toba zalatwie' means 'Ja ci pokaze'

      'Ja go zawolalem' means 'Ja do niego zadzwonilem'

      My American friend Mike always says 'Ja chcialabym herbata' and he's very proud of his Polish, I stopped correcting him long time ago.

      What I want to say is that you can't expect non-native speakers to speak like native ones. So please have some tolerance for our mistakes. I don't think we should be ashamed of ourselves.

      Finally, a lot of native speakers of English pronounce the same words in a different way.

      easy - izy, ejzy, ajzy
      my - maj, mi

      So why can't we say 'bed' instead of 'bad' or 'wok' instead of 'walk'? As long as we understand each other it is OK.

      On the other hand I remember when my Russian friend wanted to say to someone 'You are an ace' and instead he pronounced it like 'You are an ass'. The guy who was called an ass came to me, complained and said 'I thought Arkady was my friend'. I went to investigate and Arkady happily, with a big smile on his face, confirmed that Chez was an ass. I was a bit confused for a moment but finally I understood. He wanted to say 'an ace. :)
      • Gość: Tamtejszy Re: Amerykanka wymowa polskiego IP: *.proxy.aol.com 04.11.03, 16:54
        You are barking up the wrong tree. My question was about teachers in Poland,
        and not their students. Besides, it is not MY loss if they mispronounce, it is
        their's. They should blame their teachers for such a problem. Often even I can
        not grasp what they are saying, and I am Polish.
        P.s. Have you heard the American version of Sawicki? Sałyky. Ck is always k.
        • Gość: awalk Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 04.11.03, 20:57
          Gość portalu: Tamtejszy napisał(a):

          > You are barking up the wrong tree. My question was about teachers in Poland,
          > and not their students. Besides, it is not MY loss if they mispronounce, it is
          > their's. They should blame their teachers for such a problem. Often even I can
          > not grasp what they are saying, and I am Polish.
          > P.s. Have you heard the American version of Sawicki? Sałyky. Ck is always k.

          I thought the answer was obvious - of course not! The people to blame are usually Polish students who don't want to learn proper pronunciation. Recently I've heard a lot of Polish students complaining about native speakers of English who teach them at schools. They put to much stress, in the students' opinion, on accent and pronunciation and the students want grammar instead.
          Consider this; almost every English school in Poland offers lessons with native speakers of English. There are English channels on television, speaking dictionaries on the Internet, on CDs etc. I really don't think the teachers are to blame.

          Yes, I've heard many Americans pronouncing Polish last names, including mine. But my favorite is the situation with our last names ending with '-ski'. Let's say Mr. Wysowski leaves his country village in Poland and goes to the US to stay there permanently. Naturally all Americans pronounce his name 'łysołsky', so to keep at least the last letter in his name pronounced right he changes his name to Wysowsky. Now all Americans pronounce his name łysołski, still far away from the original but at least the last sound they pronounce right. Then Mr. Wysowsky, for some reason, goes back to Poland to his village and in his passport it reads Wysowsky. Well in Poland the -sky ending is usually reserved for people from high society, aristocrats etc.. You can imagine the reaction of his neighbors. The situation gets further complicated when Mrs Wysowska goes to Poland. In the US Wysowsky and Wysowska are two different names, so in her passport it reads Mrs Wysowsky. In Poland of course a lot of people don't know about this simple fact, which creates some more confusion.
          • kociamama Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 04.11.03, 21:04
            Dear awalk,

            I disagree with you concerning the question of natives teaching
            pronuniciation. I don't think they correct students' mistakes (at least those
            i met). The methodology suggests that they shouldn't correct as long as the
            speaker manages to get the message across. Comparing to the Koreans or Chinese
            speaking English, or even the French, Poles are pretty successful as far as
            articulation is concerned, so no teacher bothers to inform them that something
            might be wrong with their performance.

            Later,
            Kociamama.
            • Gość: awalk Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 06.11.03, 10:18
              kociamama napisała:

              > Dear awalk,
              >
              > I disagree with you concerning the question of natives teaching
              > pronuniciation. I don't think they correct students' mistakes (at least those
              > i met). The methodology suggests that they shouldn't correct as long as the
              > speaker manages to get the message across. Comparing to the Koreans or Chinese
              > speaking English, or even the French, Poles are pretty successful as far as
              > articulation is concerned, so no teacher bothers to inform them that something
              > might be wrong with their performance.
              >
              > Later,
              > Kociamama.

              If correcting means teaching then I agree with you. But what I want to say is that 'natives' usually don't teach people to pronunce words badly. These are the people to blame - because they don't listen or don't want to listen. It is also a very well known fact that the sentence accent is far more important than the pronunciation of a single word. So I wouldn't cry over Polish people saying 'bed' instead of 'bad' or 'wok' instead of 'walk' etc. Like you say they still manage to get their message across. And yes, we're not that bad in comparison to other nations.
    • beniowski Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 04.11.03, 12:54
      Generalnie polacy nie mowią ani z brytyskim, ani z amrykańskim akcentem, tylko
      z tzw. międzynarowowym. Albo wcale (jako filolog i specjalista od wymowy
      amerykańskiej potrafię to odróżnić). To o czym wy piszecie, np. shit i sheet,
      to kwestia tzw. długiego i krótkiego "i" w wymowie. Amerykański angielski jest
      to angielski "rhotic" (rotyczny) tzn. "r" na końcu jest wymawiane, oprócz kilku
      regionów i np. Nowego Jorku. W brytyjskim generalnie nie wymawia się "r" na
      końcu, chociaż np. Szkoci już tak, ale na wymowie szkockeij się nie znam, więc
      dokładnie jej nie opiszę. Owo "e" o którym mówicie, to prawdopodobnie "shwa"
      czyli charakterystyczna samogłoska, wymawiana czasem, jak to powiadał mój
      profesor od lingwistyki, jak beknięcie. W wyrazie "man" zaś mamy w AmerEng tzw.
      żabę, czyli połączenie "a" i "e". Faktycznie, mało kto wymawia poprawnie "men"
      i "man", tak żeby było słychać różnicę. generalnie polacy nie mówią z akcentem,
      chociaż i tak są o niebo lepsi od np. Włochów czy Francuzów. Najlepiej jest
      nauczyć się akcentu w danym kraju. Ostatnio w stolicy rozmawiałem z kelnerką
      mówiąca z rewelacyjnym amerykańskim akcentem, który nabyła, siedząc długow
      stanach
    • kociamama Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 04.11.03, 15:02
      Actually, I think that one can aquire an accent which resembles native
      speakers. It is possible, but one must want it, first of all, and be capable
      of hearing the difference between the sounds.
      However, I don't think that lack of the right accent should prevent us from
      speaking because as long as it doesn't become a hindrance in communication
      it's ok.
      Still, I think that teachers should speak English properly without
      pronunication mistakes and with some kind of accent either American or British
      as they exist as an example to follow. They should also pay attention to long
      and short vowels, as these are a significant element of accurate articulation.
      Teachers should also correct pronunciation mistakes and show rules.
      For instance, a lot of people claim they've never been correcetd while
      saying "kamfortejbel" or mispronouncing ather adjectives ending with -able.

      Later,
      Kociamama.
      • soup_nazi Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 05.11.03, 19:49
        kociamama napisała:

        > Actually, I think that one can aquire an accent which resembles native
        > speakers. It is possible, but one must want it, first of all, and be capable
        > of hearing the difference between the sounds.

        Actually, I think that all of this goes without saying. The question is to what
        degree the acquired accent resembles that of native speakers.

        > However, I don't think that lack of the right accent should prevent us from
        > speaking because as long as it doesn't become a hindrance in communication
        > it's ok.

        Second that.

        > Still, I think that teachers should speak English properly without
        > pronunication mistakes and with some kind of accent either American or
        British
        > as they exist as an example to follow.
        They should also pay attention to long
        > and short vowels, as these are a significant element of accurate articulation.
        > Teachers should also correct pronunciation mistakes and show rules.
        > For instance, a lot of people claim they've never been correcetd while
        > saying "kamfortejbel" or mispronouncing ather adjectives ending with -able.

        Excuse me but people who don't or can't all of the above shouldn't be called
        teachers but "marcins" instead. Like in:

        "uczyl marcin marcina a sam glupi jak swinia"

        --
        Soup Nazi - the artist formerly known as Zlosliwe Bydle
        • kociamama Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 06.11.03, 10:33
          I assure you that it's possible to acquire the right accent. I used to teach a
          boy in junior-high who learnt it by himself just from TV, never being in the
          States.
          I've never been to the States either, but when I meet Americans they aks how
          long I've lived in the USA, and they indicate a particular region, Midwest. As
          this is the variety frequently used on CNN, and I don't heve to explain I also
          picked up the accent from TV.

          In reference to teachers, who don't correct mistekes. There are plenty of
          them, in particular natives. They base on methodological theories, that it's
          better to motivate learner to speak, and continual correction can daunt them.
          It concerns especially Poles who are reluctant to talk (perhaps because of
          former teaching strategies, basing on the theory that it's better not to say
          anything than make a mistake)

          Therefore, don't voice such a severe criticism at natives not correcting
          mistakes, as they don't know Polish (usually), so they don't realize where the
          difficulty lies, and which sounds need special attention. (E.g. long vowels,
          cuz we simply don't have them in Polish)

          Later,
          Kociamama.
          • soup_nazi Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 07.11.03, 17:35
            kociamama napisała:

            > I assure you that it's possible to acquire the right accent. I used to teach
            a
            > boy in junior-high who learnt it by himself just from TV, never being in the
            > States.
            > I've never been to the States either, but when I meet Americans they aks how
            > long I've lived in the USA, and they indicate a particular region, Midwest.
            As
            > this is the variety frequently used on CNN, and I don't heve to explain I
            also
            > picked up the accent from TV.

            All of the above is laughable stock. Let me tell you something: it takes years
            and years of living in a country and being entirely immersed in its language,
            preferably with no contact with one's mother tongue, to be able to fool the
            natives or even a foreigner who knows the language well. I could give you a few
            convincing examples from my own experience (although not necessarily involving
            myself) to support my point. However, I think that it would be waste of time -
            if you could have written something as the opinion above, you are not very
            likely to recognize common sense arguments. Please, feel free to let me know in
            case you are interested. You don't seem to know what you wrote about in this
            particular case. Let's listen to other voices, if there are any, shall we?

            >
            > In reference to teachers, who don't correct mistekes. There are plenty of
            > them, in particular natives. They base on methodological theories, that it's
            > better to motivate learner to speak, and continual correction can daunt them.

            And that's correct, but only if a student's pronunciation and accent is
            acceptable, although it might still be distant from ideal. Otherwise, a student
            might consider his way of speaking good enough if there's no feedback from the
            teacher, and stop working on it thus reinforcing bad pronunciation habits.

            ...

            > Therefore, don't voice such a severe criticism at natives not correcting
            > mistakes, as they don't know Polish (usually), so they don't realize where
            the
            > difficulty lies, and which sounds need special attention. (E.g. long vowels,
            > cuz we simply don't have them in Polish)

            Well, I happened to have two native teachers in the early eighties in Poland.
            One was British, one American. Neither of them had any command of Polish,
            except for a few basic words. In spite of that, they seemed to perfectly
            realize which sounds were particularly difficult to mimic for Polish students.
            Moreover, I had opportunity to observe ESL teachers in North America and, guess
            what, they also used to correct their students' speech in regards to grammar,
            pronunciation, and accent if they were remote from correctness. Noticeably,
            their students were coming from various countries and backgrounds.

            I'm sorry if my remarks sounded too harsh. It was not my intention to flame.

            --
            Soup Nazi - the artist formerly known as Zlosliwe Bydle
            • Gość: Tamtejszy Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego IP: *.proxy.aol.com 07.11.03, 23:44
              This has been my experience as well. I learned English taking classes in
              English For Foreign Students at Georgetown, spent next 8 years in regular
              progams, stayed away from Polonia, watched the television, and spoke the
              language.
              I would add to the desirable methods of learnig good pronunciation also the
              usage of a tape lab.
            • sajjitarius Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 13.11.03, 23:22
              soup_nazi napisał:

              > kociamama napisała:
              >
              > > I assure you that it's possible to acquire the right accent. I used to tea
              > ch
              > a
              > > boy in junior-high who learnt it by himself just from TV, never being in t
              > he
              > > States.
              > > I've never been to the States either, but when I meet Americans they aks h
              > ow
              > > long I've lived in the USA, and they indicate a particular region, Midwest
              > .
              > As
              > > this is the variety frequently used on CNN, and I don't heve to explain I
              > also
              > > picked up the accent from TV.
              >
              > All of the above is laughable stock. Let me tell you something: it takes
              years
              > and years of living in a country and being entirely immersed in its language,
              > preferably with no contact with one's mother tongue, to be able to fool the
              > natives or even a foreigner who knows the language well. I could give you a
              few
              >
              > convincing examples from my own experience (although not necessarily
              involving
              > myself) to support my point. However, I think that it would be waste of time -

              > if you could have written something as the opinion above, you are not very
              > likely to recognize common sense arguments. Please, feel free to let me know
              in
              >
              > case you are interested. You don't seem to know what you wrote about in this
              > particular case. Let's listen to other voices, if there are any, shall we?
              >
              > >
              > > In reference to teachers, who don't correct mistekes. There are plenty of
              > > them, in particular natives. They base on methodological theories, that it
              > 's
              > > better to motivate learner to speak, and continual correction can daunt th
              > em.
              >
              > And that's correct, but only if a student's pronunciation and accent is
              > acceptable, although it might still be distant from ideal. Otherwise, a
              student
              >
              > might consider his way of speaking good enough if there's no feedback from
              the
              > teacher, and stop working on it thus reinforcing bad pronunciation habits.
              >
              > ...
              >
              > > Therefore, don't voice such a severe criticism at natives not correcting
              > > mistakes, as they don't know Polish (usually), so they don't realize where
              >
              > the
              > > difficulty lies, and which sounds need special attention. (E.g. long vowel
              > s,
              > > cuz we simply don't have them in Polish)
              >
              > Well, I happened to have two native teachers in the early eighties in Poland.
              > One was British, one American. Neither of them had any command of Polish,
              > except for a few basic words. In spite of that, they seemed to perfectly
              > realize which sounds were particularly difficult to mimic for Polish
              students.
              > Moreover, I had opportunity to observe ESL teachers in North America and,
              guess
              >
              > what, they also used to correct their students' speech in regards to grammar,
              > pronunciation, and accent if they were remote from correctness. Noticeably,
              > their students were coming from various countries and backgrounds.
              >
              > I'm sorry if my remarks sounded too harsh. It was not my intention to flame.
              >


              Laughable stock ? why ? Just because you have never met anyone who speaks
              English perfectly, like a native, even though it is a second/foreign language
              for him/her, does not mean this cannot happen. It can. I learned English on my
              own, while in Poland, came to Canada and did fool the natives. Well not
              entirely. Sometimes they think I am British, occasionally they ask me if I am
              South African. But even this aside, what does it mean to fool the natives ?
              What natives ? In Toronto, say ?
              English is the first language of millions of people. For Australians, South
              Africans, British, Americans and many others it is their native language. Yet
              when an Australian comes to Canada, he/she does not speak like a native
              Canadian, does he ? So what ? He/she cannot fool the natives, but still he/she
              speaks perfect English, no ?
              • soup_nazi Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 14.11.03, 05:30
                Hehehe, Strzelec, what you've just written here is a pile of garbage. If you
                have been living for years in Canada and dare to write this horseshit you are:

                a. a liar
                b. an idiot
                c. a person completely out of touch with surrounding reality

                I choose not to respond to you, because that would be total waste of time
                after what you have written. However, I will respond to other people who
                believe that I'm wrong and would like to know my reasoning.

                P.S. BTW, Strzelec, why are you hiding and doing so in such a stupid manner,
                hehehe?
                --
                Soup Nazi - the artist formerly known as Zlosliwe Bydle
                • Gość: chris Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego IP: *.icpnet.pl 14.11.03, 14:12
                  Why do you find it so hard to believe that people can learn a foreign language
                  perfectly? Last summer in Greece I met a woman who was an owner of a small
                  hotel. When I asked her what part of Poland whe was from, she said she was
                  Greek, from Athens. It turned out she spent two years in Poland some years back
                  and she visits Poland every year, and she's got many Polish friends visiting
                  her in Greece. What's more funny, her husband who spent many more years in
                  Poland as a student, spoke much worse Polish. So, you can learn a language
                  perfectly, though it's very very very rare.
                  I heard it myself, so now, how would you convince me it's not possible?
                  • soup_nazi Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 17.11.03, 17:44
                    Gość portalu: chris napisał(a):

                    > Why do you find it so hard to believe that people can learn a foreign
                    language
                    > perfectly?

                    What does it mean perfectly? For me it means not recognizable by native speakers
                    under normal circumstances. And for you?

                    Last summer in Greece I met a woman who was an owner of a small
                    > hotel. When I asked her what part of Poland whe was from, she said she was
                    > Greek, from Athens. It turned out she spent two years in Poland some years
                    back
                    >
                    > and she visits Poland every year, and she's got many Polish friends visiting
                    > her in Greece. What's more funny, her husband who spent many more years in
                    > Poland as a student, spoke much worse Polish. So, you can learn a language
                    > perfectly, though it's very very very rare.

                    That's exactly my point.

                    > I heard it myself, so now, how would you convince me it's not possible?

                    >"she spent two years in Poland some years back and she visits Poland every
                    >year, and she's got many Polish friends visiting her in Greece" - well, if it
                    had been twenty years, I would give you the benefit of doubt. Otherwise, she
                    must have been a genius which is very unlikely.

                    The other explanation is that she didn't tell you whole truth. She was a Polish
                    Greek and spent at least her early childhood in Poland (this is not in conflict
                    with her statement that she was Greek from Athens). To my best knowledge, those
                    guys have been returning from exile since early eighties. Why she didn't tell
                    you that? Well, Greeks love to impress others, foreigners in particular, even
                    if it takes some harmless white lies or semi-truths. Take my word for it - I
                    spent more than two years living there and got to know them quite well. Still,
                    I like them - they're mostly very nice and warm people.

                    While we're talking about Greece - once upon a time I met two guys there. The
                    first one was in his sixties, I guess. I had a nice conversation with him for
                    about an hour. We talked in Greek (after two years my Greek was basic and crude
                    but still functional). Throughout the whole conversation I thought I was
                    hearing a foreign note. It was so faint and volatile that I thought it was just
                    my imagination. At the end of the meeting I asked him politely. He smiled and
                    said: "I'm English. I had lived for over forty years in Greece, though.". He
                    came to Greece in his early twenties and stayed for life. His wife was Greek,
                    his kids were Greek, he used to visit the UK very seldom. Almost perfect
                    immersion, yet, I, non-native speaker was able to trace something different in
                    his intonation. What about native speakers then?

                    The second guy (I worked with him) was French. He came to Greece when he was
                    around ten. I couldn't anything particular about the way he spoke. Neither did
                    the native speakers of Greek. Can you see the pattern?


                    --
                    Soup Nazi - the artist formerly known as Zlosliwe Bydle
              • fadeintoyou Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 17.11.03, 23:40
                I totally agree with you.Recenlty my husband was applaying for a brithish
                passport and needed someone who could prove he had been living in the uk
                permanently. We asked a woman in the post office who could of possibly agreed
                to sign the application form for him and she said "I would if I could but im
                not a british citizen, Im german" we wouldnt of thought she was german, she
                spoke better english that my husband(native scauser hehe)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
              • michaelis Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 08.03.04, 19:47
                sajjitarius napisał:

                >
                > Laughable stock ? why ? Just because you have never met anyone who speaks
                > English perfectly, like a native, even though it is a second/foreign language
                > for him/her, does not mean this cannot happen. It can. I learned English on
                my
                > own, while in Poland, came to Canada and did fool the natives. Well not
                > entirely. Sometimes they think I am British, occasionally they ask me if I am
                > South African. But even this aside, what does it mean to fool the natives ?
                > What natives ? In Toronto, say ?
                > English is the first language of millions of people. For Australians, South
                > Africans, British, Americans and many others it is their native language. Yet
                > when an Australian comes to Canada, he/she does not speak like a native
                > Canadian, does he ? So what ? He/she cannot fool the natives, but still
                he/she
                > speaks perfect English, no ?


                Errr, it's not 'laughable stock', it's 'laughing stock'. It's not that hard to
                be taken for a native speaker of English in Canada, especially in Toronto...
                Half of the people in Toronto are immigrants who don't know English very well.
                • soup_nazi Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 08.03.04, 21:51
                  michaelis napisał:


                  > Errr, it's not 'laughable stock', it's 'laughing stock'.

                  Correct. My mistake.

                  It's not that hard to
                  > be taken for a native speaker of English in Canada,

                  This is not true.

                  especially in Toronto...
                  > Half of the people in Toronto are immigrants who don't know English very well.

                  This is not true, even in Toronto. You don't have to know the language well
                  yourself to identify a non-native speaker even if he is fluent. It's the matter
                  of accent, not grammar.

                  --
                  WHO ELSE WANTS SOUP?! NEXT!!!!!
      • Gość: awalk Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 06.11.03, 09:59
        Gość portalu: Withnail napisał(a):

        > To answer your question briefly - they do. Teachers do teach how to pronounce
        > differently man - men and so on. But only at schools of a university level,
        > where there are subjects such as phonetic.

        University level! Don't make me laugh. Almost every book for beginners comes with a tape, and they teach phonetics there.
      • kociamama Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 06.11.03, 10:37
        Gość portalu: Withnail napisał(a):

        > To answer your question briefly - they do. Teachers do teach how to
        pronounce
        > differently man - men and so on. But only at schools of a university level,
        > where there are subjects such as phonetic.


        That's very true. Probably that's why most teachers think (showind patronizing
        attitude) that students won't learn the right pronunciation, as ya need a
        separate subject for this. In practice, a lot of people don't get helped by
        phonetic classes. They cram some phrases, frequently absurd, whch they can say
        properly, but later in the conversation they seem to lose their accent, or
        even mispronounce words.

        Later,
        Kociamama.
      • yoric To awalk and Kociamama 09.11.03, 10:21
        One thing,

        how is the replacement of 'ski' with 'sky' going to affect the pronunciation?
        For all I know, this shouldn't be the case in BrE.

        Another, I want to emphasise how much I agree with KM's last statement - people
        do mispronounce phrases that they've learn to say correctly before. To help
        that, you need extensive practice. The role of phonetic calsses should be to
        practise the distinctions between sounds and turn students' attention to them -
        Ss might then start to notice thibngs they wouldn't have noticed themselves -
        but the work of mastering them will have to be done by the ss individually.

        One final thing, the teacher should also indicate the most important
        irregularities between the spelling and pronunciation - English is teeming with
        them.

        rgdz
          • soup_nazi Re: To awalk and Kociamama 10.11.03, 03:37
            Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

            > Well it does. Americans pronunce -sky in Polish names correctly for some
            > reason. I don't know about BrE.

            Well, I don't think so. I happen to be an owner of such name and I tested it
            countless times on Americans and Canadians by spelling it in speech and
            writing in either form. It did not seem to make any difference to them. They
            pronounce it (almost) correctly in both cases. Maybe, years ago, some of them
            had a habit of pronouncing "i" in "-ski" as "aj"?

            --
            Soup Nazi - the artist formerly known as Zlosliwe Bydle
            • Gość: awalk Re: To awalk and Kociamama IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 10.11.03, 08:59
              soup_nazi napisał:

              > Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):
              >
              > > Well it does. Americans pronunce -sky in Polish names correctly for some
              > > reason. I don't know about BrE.
              >
              > Well, I don't think so. I happen to be an owner of such name and I tested it
              > countless times on Americans and Canadians by spelling it in speech and
              > writing in either form. It did not seem to make any difference to them. They
              > pronounce it (almost) correctly in both cases. Maybe, years ago, some of them
              > had a habit of pronouncing "i" in "-ski" as "aj"?
              >

              hmm... countless Americans and Canadians you say.
              Your post indicates that you carried out a thorough scientific survey on the topic, so probably you are right and I am wrong.
              Could you give me more details of it? For example number of people tested and results according to age, income, education, job, location, nationality etc.
              I trust you also conducted an additional survey on the subject: 'Why so many Polish immigrants changed the endings of their last names from ski to sky.'
                • yoric Correction 10.11.03, 14:47
                  Don't know why i hit so fast enter last time.

                  Anyway, what I mean is - there's no reason to be carried away - at least what I
                  need to find out is - what's the (possible) mispronunciation of 'ski'? If it's
                  not a kind of /skai/ then I'm at a loss.
                  rgdz
                  • Gość: awalk Re: Correction IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 10.11.03, 15:39
                    yoric napisał:

                    > Don't know why i hit so fast enter last time.
                    >
                    > Anyway, what I mean is - there's no reason to be carried away - at least what I
                    >
                    > need to find out is - what's the (possible) mispronunciation of 'ski'? If it's
                    > not a kind of /skai/ then I'm at a loss.
                    > rgdz

                    Last time when a clerk called my name it was '-skaia' :)
                    • soup_nazi Re: Correction 10.11.03, 17:35
                      Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

                      > Last time when a clerk called my name it was '-skaia' :)

                      So this is your base to claim that "Americans ... blah, blah"?

                      --
                      Soup Nazi - the artist formerly known as Zlosliwe Bydle
              • soup_nazi Re: To awalk and Kociamama 10.11.03, 17:33
                Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

                > soup_nazi napisał:
                >
                > > Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):
                > >
                > > > Well it does. Americans pronunce -sky in Polish names correctly for s
                > ome
                > > > reason. I don't know about BrE.
                > >
                > > Well, I don't think so. I happen to be an owner of such name and I tested
                > it
                > > countless times on Americans and Canadians by spelling it in speech and
                > > writing in either form. It did not seem to make any difference to them. Th
                > ey
                > > pronounce it (almost) correctly in both cases. Maybe, years ago, some of t
                > hem
                > > had a habit of pronouncing "i" in "-ski" as "aj"?
                > >
                >
                > hmm... countless Americans and Canadians you say.
                > Your post indicates that you carried out a thorough scientific survey on the
                to
                > pic, so probably you are right and I am wrong.

                My post doesn't indicate anything like that. Apparently you find in my posts
                only what you want to find. I strongly suspect that you are one of those people
                who have to prove their point, come hell and high water. That's way I stopped
                responding to you in another thread.

                > Could you give me more details of it? For example number of people tested and
                r
                > esults according to age, income, education, job, location, nationality etc.

                >>> Americans pronunce -sky in Polish names correctly for some reason.

                All Americans (implied)? What about your survey? I trust you conducted one to
                claim your point? As for me, I didn't have to. I have been living in North
                America long enough to test that on myself. "I don't think so" <> "You are
                wrong". I'm just saying that while living for -teen years in Ontario and for
                shorter periods in Florida, Arizona, and southern California, I heard my last "-
                ski" name mispronounced in a variety of ways (some of them very creative). I
                have never heard it pronounced /skaj/. Moreover, this is based not only on my
                personal experience. Nevertheless, I don't exclude the possibility that it
                happened to others. It does not seem to be a common case nowadays, though. In
                fact, I'm guessing that in the past it was more popular way of pronunciation.

                > I trust you also conducted an additional survey on the subject: 'Why so many
                Po
                > lish immigrants changed the endings of their last names from ski to sky.'

                Again, what about you? In fact, I'm guessing that in the past it was a more
                popular way of pronunciation of particular Slavic names. Therefore, those
                people used to change the spelling of their names to avoid mispronunciation.
                For the record, legal name change doesn't seem to be a very common practice
                amongst Polish immigrants in US/Canada in the past twenty years or so, although
                some of them would have valid reasons to do so (i.e. multiple "sz","cz","szcz",
                etc. in their last names).

                P.S. You're welcome to cut out all the parts that you consider irrelevant for
                our possible further discussion.


                --
                Soup Nazi - the artist formerly known as Zlosliwe Bydle
                • Gość: awalk Re: To awalk and Kociamama IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 11.11.03, 09:09
                  soup_nazi napisał:

                  > P.S. You're welcome to cut out all the parts that you consider irrelevant for
                  > our possible further discussion.

                  Well, I did and thanks for 'possible'.
                  >
                  You seem to be a very serious and easily offended person. I usually just can't resist teasing such people. I am sorry it is wrong and I won't bother you again unless you ask me to. :)

                  to yoric:

                  I can't really answer your question. All I can say is that at one point in my life I did quite a lot of title searches in town halls in Connecticut in the US. It seems that, in many parts, a lot of properties there belong to the people of Polish origin. Some of their names end with -ski and a lot with -sky. In Poland -sky endings aren't very common nowadays, so I was intrigued by it. Thus, I made up this little theory, but upon closer examination this doesn't seem right. Perhaps this is just spelling according to old Polish rules where 'y' was sometimes used instead of present 'i'. Some of those property titles were pretty old I might add.

                  Perhaps there is a linguist here who could give me an explanation.

                  • soup_nazi Re: To awalk and Kociamama 11.11.03, 18:33
                    Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

                    > You seem to be a very serious and easily offended person.

                    On the contrary. As for you - convince me that you are not on one of those who
                    always know better. Without using convoluted logic and arguments like:

                    "Manual transmission is obsolete because I say so"

                    I usually just can't
                    > resist teasing such people. I am sorry it is wrong and I won't bother you
                    again
                    > unless you ask me to. :)

                    Watch it! I'm not bad myself in the art of teasing. Wanna try?

                    --
                    Soup Nazi - the artist formerly known as Zlosliwe Bydle
                    • Gość: awalk Re: To awalk and Kociamama IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 12.11.03, 10:37
                      soup_nazi napisał:

                      ... As for you - convince me that you are not on one of those who
                      > always know better.

                      I don't think it is possible for me to convince you of anything, so you must forgive me if I don't try.

                      >Without using convoluted logic and arguments like:
                      >
                      > "Manual transmission is obsolete because I say so"

                      In other words you say: 'I can use my convoulted logic and you can't use yours.' Forget it, no way Jose!

                      Getting back to the transsmisions.
                      Majority of Americans choose automatic ones. I think they do it because they think they are better. A small minority, usually males claim that it is not true, and they look down their noses at the people who drive automatics. They say: 'Look at me I can drive both. If you can't, you're not a good driver. You'd better stay away from a steering wheel because you're a danger to other drivers etc. etc.' A typical macho behaviour. Isn't it your case s-n?

                      > I usually just can't
                      > > resist teasing such people. I am sorry it is wrong and I won't bother you
                      > again
                      > > unless you ask me to. :)
                      >
                      > Watch it! I'm not bad myself in the art of teasing. Wanna try?
                      >
                      Go ahead, make my day! :)
      • soup_nazi Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 13.11.03, 20:18
        Apparently he/she was neither a native speaker nor a graduate of English
        filology.
        The question is what were his credentials to teach English. What about his/her
        other language skills?

        --
        Soup Nazi - the artist formerly known as Zlosliwe Bydle
        • kociamama Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 13.11.03, 21:06
          I must disappoint you soup_nazi, as being an ENglish Department Graduate
          doesn't automatically mean a perfect pronunciation. Unfortunaltely I happen to
          Know personally some people who are university graduates (from the English
          department) who don't excel in pronunciation.

          Later,
          Kociamama.
          • soup_nazi Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 13.11.03, 21:50
            Hi, kitty mom,

            (I have no idea whether this is a correct equivalent of "kociamama, I've just
            made it up :-) )

            I'm sorry, I don't have time now to reply with a longer post, but I'll write to
            you later today (considering that we are in different time zones, it might mean
            tomorrow for you). I liked your post.

            In the meantime let me apologize that I might have been a little too harsh on
            you in other threads. Now I can clearly see that you're not one of those who
            always know better, but a reasonable person, open to discussion. So am I.

            cya l8er :-)

            --
            Soup Nazi - the artist formerly known as Zlosliwe Bydle
          • soup_nazi Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 17.11.03, 15:18
            kociamama napisała:

            > I must disappoint you soup_nazi, as being an ENglish Department Graduate
            > doesn't automatically mean a perfect pronunciation. Unfortunaltely I happen
            to
            > Know personally some people who are university graduates (from the English
            > department) who don't excel in pronunciation.

            Well, I'm not really disappointed. No reasonable person should expect perfect
            pronunciation, but next to perfect... why not? Don't they spend many lab hours
            on phonetics and such? Don't they learn from the best (the faculty)? But I take
            your word for it. You've been there, you've done that :-).

            --
            Soup Nazi - the artist formerly known as Zlosliwe Bydle
    • yoric Re: Polska wymowa angielskiego 15.11.03, 21:01
      Vowels are of course the most troublesome. They're all of them different from
      Polish ones, in some cases quite dramatically, so it's best to make students
      realize that from the start.

      People usually cope well with aspiration. Polish 'h' is different from
      English 'h', but that's not a big deal. The same is with 'sh' and 'ch' vs 'sz'
      and 'cz'.

      The most important issues (when it comes to consonants) are 'ng' (one sound,
      not /ng/!), and 'th'.

      I think the best way to learn phonetics is imitation.
      rgdz

      --
      Zapraszam do dyskusji i tworzenia tematów na prowizorycznym Forum nauk
      kognitywnych: www2.gazeta.pl/forum/790620,30353,790602.html?f=10387
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