Ilu ludzi zabił Saddam

IP: *.jeleniag.sdi.tpnet.pl 26.01.03, 10:47
New York Times:

Like other dictators who wrote bloody chapters in 20th-century history, Mr.
Hussein was primed for violence by early childhood. Born into the murderous
clan culture of a village that lived off piracy on the Tigris River, he was
harshly beaten by a brutal stepfather. In 1959, at age 22, he made his start
in politics as one of the gunmen who botched an attempt to assassinate Iraq's
first military ruler, Abdel Karim Kassem.
Since then, Mr. Hussein's has been a tale of terror that scholars have
compared to that of Stalin, whom the Iraqi leader is said to revere, even if
his own brutalities have played out on a small scale. Stalin killed 20
million of his own people, historians have concluded. Even on a proportional
basis, his crimes far surpass Mr. Hussein's, but figures of a million dead
Iraqis, in war and through terror, may not be far from the mark, in a country
of 22 million people.
Where the comparison seems closest is in the regime's mercilessly sadistic
character. Iraq has its gulag of prisons, dungeons and torture chambers —
some of them acknowledged, like Abu Ghraib, and as many more disguised as
hotels, sports centers and other innocent-sounding places. It has its
overlapping secret-police agencies, and its culture of betrayal, with family
members denouncing each other, and offices and factories becoming hives of
perfidy.
"Enemies of the state" are eliminated, and their spouses, adult children and
even cousins are often tortured and killed along with them.
Mr. Hussein even uses Stalinist maxims, including what an Iraqi defector
identified as one of the dictator's favorites: "If there is a person, then
there is a problem. If there is no person, then there is no problem."
There are rituals to make the end as terrible as possible, not only for the
victims but for those who survive. After seizing power in July 1979, Mr.
Hussein handed weapons to surviving members of the ruling elite, then joined
them in personally executing 22 comrades who had dared to oppose his ascent.
DOING the arithmetic is an imprecise venture. The largest number of deaths
attributable to Mr. Hussein's regime resulted from the war between Iraq and
Iran between 1980 and 1988, which was launched by Mr. Hussein. Iraq says its
own toll was 500,000, and Iran's reckoning ranges upward of 300,000. Then
there are the casualties in the wake of Iraq's 1990 occupation of Kuwait.
Iraq's official toll from American bombing in that war is 100,000 — surely a
gross exaggeration — but nobody contests that thousands of Iraqi soldiers and
civilians were killed in the American campaign to oust Mr. Hussein's forces
from Kuwait. In addition, 1,000 Kuwaitis died during the fighting and
occupation in their country.
Casualties from Iraq's gulag are harder to estimate. Accounts collected by
Western human rights groups from Iraqi émigrés and defectors have suggested
that the number of those who have "disappeared" into the hands of the secret
police, never to be heard from again, could be 200,000. As long as Mr.
Hussein remains in power, figures like these will be uncheckable, but the
huge toll is palpable nonetheless.
Just as in Stalin's Russia, the machinery of death is mostly invisible,
except for the effects it works on those brushed by it — in the loss of
relatives and friends, and in the universal terror that others have of
falling into the abyss. If anybody wants to know what terror looks like, its
face is visible every day on every street of Iraq.
"Minders," the men who watch visiting reporters day and night, are supposedly
drawn from among the regime's harder men. But even they break down, hands
shaking, eyes brimming, voices desperate, when reporters ask ordinary Iraqis
edgy questions about Mr. Hussein.
Using a satanic arithmetic, prison governors worked out how many prisoners
would have to be hanged to bring the numbers down to stipulated levels, even
taking into account the time remaining in the inmates' sentences. As 20 and
30 prisoners at a time were executed at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere, warders
trailed through cities like Baghdad, "selling" exemption from execution to
shocked families, according to people in Iraq who said they had spoken to
relatives of those involved. Bribes of money, furniture, cars and even
property titles brought only temporary stays.
MORE recently, according to Iraqis who fled to Jordan and other neighboring
countries, scores of women have been executed under a new twist in a "return
to faith" campaign proclaimed by Mr. Hussein. Aimed at bolstering his support
across the Islamic world, the campaign led early on to a ban on drinking
alcohol in public. Then, some time in the last two years, it widened to
include the public killing of accused prostitutes.
Often, the executions have been carried out by the Fedayeen Saddam, a
paramilitary group headed by Mr. Hussein's oldest son, 38-year-old Uday.
These men, masked and clad in black, make the women kneel in busy city
squares, along crowded sidewalks, or in neighborhood plots, then behead them
with swords. The families of some victims have claimed they were innocent of
any crime save that of criticizing Mr. Hussein.

    • Gość: mundek Re: Ilu ludzi zabił Saddam IP: 217.97.140.* 26.01.03, 10:55
      ciekawe ile w tym prawdy ????
      • Gość: maurycy Re: Ilu ludzi zabił Saddam IP: *.jeleniag.sdi.tpnet.pl 26.01.03, 11:03
        Rzetelne dziennikoarstwo wymaga conajmniej drugiego potwierdzenia wiadomosci z
        innego źródła. Wiem, że NYT nie grzeszy bezstronnoscią, ale w tym przypadku...?
        • krzys29 Re: Ilu ludzi zabił Saddam 26.01.03, 14:31
          Przed amerykanskimi bombardowaniami Jugoslawii ta sama gazeta pisala,ze
          serbowie zamordowali 200 tys. Albanczykow .Dzisiaj wiadomo,ze ofiar po
          albanskiej stronie bylo okolo dwa tysiace .Tydzien temu pisalo o tym
          kanadyjskie "Toronto Sun" .
    • zwyczajny Tak lekko licząc to milion, nieżle jak 26.01.03, 15:55
      na taki mały kraj.

      Gość portalu: maurycy napisał(a):

      > New York Times:
      >
      > Like other dictators who wrote bloody chapters in 20th-century history, Mr.
      > Hussein was primed for violence by early childhood. Born into the murderous
      > clan culture of a village that lived off piracy on the Tigris River, he was
      > harshly beaten by a brutal stepfather. In 1959, at age 22, he made his start
      > in politics as one of the gunmen who botched an attempt to assassinate Iraq's
      > first military ruler, Abdel Karim Kassem.
      > Since then, Mr. Hussein's has been a tale of terror that scholars have
      > compared to that of Stalin, whom the Iraqi leader is said to revere, even if
      > his own brutalities have played out on a small scale. Stalin killed 20
      > million of his own people, historians have concluded. Even on a proportional
      > basis, his crimes far surpass Mr. Hussein's, but figures of a million dead
      > Iraqis, in war and through terror, may not be far from the mark, in a country
      > of 22 million people.
      > Where the comparison seems closest is in the regime's mercilessly sadistic
      > character. Iraq has its gulag of prisons, dungeons and torture chambers —
      >
      > some of them acknowledged, like Abu Ghraib, and as many more disguised as
      > hotels, sports centers and other innocent-sounding places. It has its
      > overlapping secret-police agencies, and its culture of betrayal, with family
      > members denouncing each other, and offices and factories becoming hives of
      > perfidy.
      > "Enemies of the state" are eliminated, and their spouses, adult children and
      > even cousins are often tortured and killed along with them.
      > Mr. Hussein even uses Stalinist maxims, including what an Iraqi defector
      > identified as one of the dictator's favorites: "If there is a person, then
      > there is a problem. If there is no person, then there is no problem."
      > There are rituals to make the end as terrible as possible, not only for the
      > victims but for those who survive. After seizing power in July 1979, Mr.
      > Hussein handed weapons to surviving members of the ruling elite, then joined
      > them in personally executing 22 comrades who had dared to oppose his ascent.
      > DOING the arithmetic is an imprecise venture. The largest number of deaths
      > attributable to Mr. Hussein's regime resulted from the war between Iraq and
      > Iran between 1980 and 1988, which was launched by Mr. Hussein. Iraq says its
      > own toll was 500,000, and Iran's reckoning ranges upward of 300,000. Then
      > there are the casualties in the wake of Iraq's 1990 occupation of Kuwait.
      > Iraq's official toll from American bombing in that war is 100,000 — surel
      > y a
      > gross exaggeration — but nobody contests that thousands of Iraqi soldiers
      > and
      > civilians were killed in the American campaign to oust Mr. Hussein's forces
      > from Kuwait. In addition, 1,000 Kuwaitis died during the fighting and
      > occupation in their country.
      > Casualties from Iraq's gulag are harder to estimate. Accounts collected by
      > Western human rights groups from Iraqi émigrés and defectors have suggested
      > that the number of those who have "disappeared" into the hands of the secret
      > police, never to be heard from again, could be 200,000. As long as Mr.
      > Hussein remains in power, figures like these will be uncheckable, but the
      > huge toll is palpable nonetheless.
      > Just as in Stalin's Russia, the machinery of death is mostly invisible,
      > except for the effects it works on those brushed by it — in the loss of
      > relatives and friends, and in the universal terror that others have of
      > falling into the abyss. If anybody wants to know what terror looks like, its
      > face is visible every day on every street of Iraq.
      > "Minders," the men who watch visiting reporters day and night, are supposedly
      > drawn from among the regime's harder men. But even they break down, hands
      > shaking, eyes brimming, voices desperate, when reporters ask ordinary Iraqis
      > edgy questions about Mr. Hussein.
      > Using a satanic arithmetic, prison governors worked out how many prisoners
      > would have to be hanged to bring the numbers down to stipulated levels, even
      > taking into account the time remaining in the inmates' sentences. As 20 and
      > 30 prisoners at a time were executed at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere, warders
      > trailed through cities like Baghdad, "selling" exemption from execution to
      > shocked families, according to people in Iraq who said they had spoken to
      > relatives of those involved. Bribes of money, furniture, cars and even
      > property titles brought only temporary stays.
      > MORE recently, according to Iraqis who fled to Jordan and other neighboring
      > countries, scores of women have been executed under a new twist in a "return
      > to faith" campaign proclaimed by Mr. Hussein. Aimed at bolstering his support
      > across the Islamic world, the campaign led early on to a ban on drinking
      > alcohol in public. Then, some time in the last two years, it widened to
      > include the public killing of accused prostitutes.
      > Often, the executions have been carried out by the Fedayeen Saddam, a
      > paramilitary group headed by Mr. Hussein's oldest son, 38-year-old Uday.
      > These men, masked and clad in black, make the women kneel in busy city
      > squares, along crowded sidewalks, or in neighborhood plots, then behead them
      > with swords. The families of some victims have claimed they were innocent of
      > any crime save that of criticizing Mr. Hussein.
      >
      • Gość: mundek Re: Tak lekko licząc to milion, nieżle jak IP: 217.97.140.* 27.01.03, 10:48
        mogliby policzyc ile zabili amerykanie w tzw akcjach policyjnych,wojnach z
        terroryzmem(skonczylo sie na zmianie nastawienia panstwa do USA-teraz sie
        lubia),wczesniejszych wojnach z komunistami nawet tam gdzie ich nie prosili,
        ilu ludzi zabili w walkach z kartelami narkotykowymi (poza USA oczywiscie)
        itd...kto to policzy teraz?????
    • Gość: zybek Dzieci w Iraku umieraja? IP: *.dyn.optonline.net 26.01.03, 16:01
      How Saddam 'staged' fake baby funerals

      The Iraqi dictator says his country's children are dying in their thousands
      because of the West's embargoes. John Sweeney, in a TV documentary to be shown
      tonight, says the figures are bogus. Here he reports from Iraq on his findings
      Terrorism crisis - Observer special
      Observer Worldview

      Sunday June 23, 2002
      The Observer

      The witness against the government of Iraq walked stiffly into the room, metal
      callipers buckled to heavy medical shoes. They had tortured her two years ago.
      She is now four.
      Her father had been suspected of involvement in a plot to kill Saddam Hussein's
      psychopathic son, Uday. He fled to the north of Iraq, but the secret police,
      the mukhabarat, came for his wife, still in Baghdad, and tortured her. When she
      wouldn't break, they tortured 'Anna' in front of her.

      Her father, 'Ali', is a thick-set Iraqi who worked in Saddam's privileged inner
      circle. He described what they did to her: 'They had a wooden stick. They would
      squeeze her feet and ask "Has Daddy called you?" - she understood - "Does Daddy
      contact you?"'

      She is a victim of Saddam's brutality, proof that he is prepared to dispense
      violence against even his country's children. By a cruel irony, her father is
      also witness to Saddam's efforts to portray those same children as victims of
      Western sanctions, which he claims have cost hundreds of thousands of young
      lives.

      Osama bin Laden justified the 11 September attack on America by referring to a
      million dead Iraqi children - killed by sanctions. But there is a belief among
      many Iraqis that Saddam is inventing the numbers.

      Ali, outraged that Saddam's torturers may have crippled his daughter for life,
      spoke openly about how the regime's propaganda has faked mass baby funerals -
      'evidence' of the 7,000 children under five the regime claims are being killed
      each month by sanctions.

      Small coffins, decorated with grisly photographs of dead babies and their ages -
      'three days', 'four days', written usefully for the English-speaking media -
      are paraded through the streets of Baghdad on the roofs of taxis, the
      procession led by a throng of official mourners.

      There is only one problem. Because there are not enough dead babies around, the
      regime prevents parents from burying infants immediately, in the Muslim
      tradition, to create more powerful propaganda.

      The taxi drivers do what they are told - as everybody does in Saddam's Iraq -
      to their evident disgust. Before Ali defected to the north, one friend of his,
      a taxi driver, explained how it worked: 'I went to Najaf [a town 100 miles
      south of Baghdad] a couple of days ago. I brought back two bodies of children
      for one of the mass funerals. The smell was very strong.'

      Ali continued: 'The taxi driver didn't know how long they'd been in freezers,
      perhaps six or seven months. The drivers would collect them from the regions
      and would be informed of when a mass funeral was arranged so they would be
      ready. Certainly, they would collect bodies of children who had died months
      before and been held for the mass processions.'

      A second, Western source, went to visit visited a Baghdad hospital and, when
      the official Iraqi minder was absent, was taken to the mortuary. There, a
      doctor showed the source a number of dead babies, lying stacked in the
      mortuary, waiting for the next official procession.

      Anna was the youngest witness to child torture by the Iraqi government in an
      investigation, The Mother of All Ironies, to be broadcast by BBC2's
      Correspondent today. It found six other adult witnesses in the Kurdish safe
      haven in the north - the only part of Iraq where people are free to speak.

      The most chilling witness was one of Saddam's torturers, who was captured
      spying against the Kurds this year. 'Kamal' told us: 'They would bring the son
      in front of his parents, who were handcuffed or tied, and would start off with
      simple methods of torture, such as cigarette burns. Then they started using
      other methods of torture, more serious ones.

      'They would tell the father that they'd slaughter his son, and they'd bring a
      bayonet out, and if the parents didn't confess they'd kill the child. 'The
      interrogator has the right to kill the child, or perform any other butchery,
      whatever's necessary.' And then Kamal chuckled.

      It is an absolute of the government of Iraq - and others - that thousands of
      Iraqi children are dying every month because of sanctions. We managed to get a
      cameraman to accompany a fact-finding trip into Iraq this year by the Great
      Britain-Iraq Society, led by its chairman, Labour MP George Galloway.

      At the start of the trip Galloway, in Iraq for the ninth time in two-and-a-half
      years, said: 'Every six minutes an Iraqi child will have died under the
      embargo. That's every six minutes of every day, of every night, every year for
      12 years.'

      In 1999 Unicef, in co-operation with the Iraqi government, made a retrospective
      projection of 500,000 excess child deaths in the 1990s. The projection is open
      to question. It was based on data from within a regime that tortures children
      with impunity. All but one of the researchers used by Unicef were employees of
      the Ministry of Health, according to the Lancet.

      The dead babies are blamed by Saddam's regime on cancers and birth defects
      which first appeared in 1991 and were, it says, caused by depleted uranium
      weapons. While no one should underestimate the lethality of these weapons and
      the stupidity of the US military machine, the claim does not make radiological
      sense. According to Dr Nick Plowman, head of clinical oncology at St
      Bartholomew's Hospital, London, the claim 'is ridiculous. It flies in the face
      of everything learnt from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.'

      Cancers do not develop overnight. Bombs that fell in 1991 could not have caused
      cancers or birth defects in that year. Fast leukaemias might occur in four or
      five years, heavy tumours around now, said Plowman.

      Richard Guthrie, a chemical weapons researcher at Sussex University,
      said: 'It's much more likely to be chemical weapons. There are serious clusters
      of cancers in the south of Iraq near Basra. In the late Eighties, Basra was
      almost taken by Iranian human-wave offensives, and Saddam stopped these by
      dropping chemical weapons on them and, by accident, on his own people.

      · John Sweeney's report will be shown in Correspondent on BBC2 at 7.15pm today


    • Gość: Mosze Mozna tez pytac.. IP: 194.90.236.* 27.01.03, 16:07
      Dlaczego on tak dlugo panuje...???
      Odp. jest ze co kilka lat/miesiecy swoich przeciwnikow/ lub generalow
      pakuje do samolotu posyla ich na jakies posiedzenie/zebranie razem z bomba
      itd...
      Caly jego sztab generalny kilka razy zostal juz zmieniony/wymieniony...
      • Gość: wikul Ilu ludzi zabił Saddam ? IP: *.acn.waw.pl 29.01.03, 01:41
        TVP nadała dzisiaj (ok.22.00) reportaż Milewicza z cyklu "Dziwny jest ten
        świat" . Pokazano m.in. zwłoki kurdyjskich dzieci zagazowanych przez wojska
        irackie przy pomocy bronii chemicznej . Coś potwornego .
        • adamniedam Re: Ilu ludzi zabił Saddam ? 29.01.03, 07:10
          Gość portalu: wikul napisał(a):

          > TVP nadała dzisiaj (ok.22.00) reportaż Milewicza z cyklu "Dziwny jest ten
          > świat" . Pokazano m.in. zwłoki kurdyjskich dzieci zagazowanych przez wojska
          > irackie przy pomocy bronii chemicznej . Coś potwornego .

          Strzeliles jak snajper, a czy pokazali takze zamordowanych kurkow , przez
          wojska tureckie.
          • Gość: czyzunia Re: Ilu ludzi zabił Saddam ? IP: *.poleczki.dialup.inetia.pl 29.01.03, 07:34
            saddam zabił dokładnie tylu ludzi, ilu wyliczył mu dablju. z dokładnością do 2
            osób. dabljum wie najlepiej.
          • Gość: wikul Re: Ilu ludzi zabił Saddam ? IP: *.acn.waw.pl 29.01.03, 23:05
            adamniedam napisał:

            > Gość portalu: wikul napisał(a):
            >
            > > TVP nadała dzisiaj (ok.22.00) reportaż Milewicza z cyklu "Dziwny jest ten
            > > świat" . Pokazano m.in. zwłoki kurdyjskich dzieci zagazowanych przez wojsk
            > a
            > > irackie przy pomocy bronii chemicznej . Coś potwornego .
            >
            > Strzeliles jak snajper, a czy pokazali takze zamordowanych kurkow , przez
            > wojska tureckie.


            Co to sa kurki i dlaczego Turcy mieliby ich mordować ?
            • Gość: Blong Re: Ilu ludzi zabił Saddam ? IP: *.zabkowska.sdi.tpnet.pl 29.01.03, 23:17
              Gość portalu: wikul napisał(a):

              > Co to sa kurki i dlaczego Turcy mieliby ich mordować ?

              to juz zapytaj turkow czemu kurdow przesladuja i zabijaja. mam nadzieje ze dla
              rownowagi zaczniesz sie domagac tez zbombardowania ankary.
              • Gość: wikul Re: Ilu ludzi zabił Saddam ? IP: *.acn.waw.pl 29.01.03, 23:56
                Gość portalu: Blong napisał(a):

                > Gość portalu: wikul napisał(a):
                >
                > > Co to sa kurki i dlaczego Turcy mieliby ich mordować ?
                >
                > to juz zapytaj turkow czemu kurdow przesladuja i zabijaja. mam nadzieje ze
                dla
                > rownowagi zaczniesz sie domagac tez zbombardowania ankary.


                Zabawiłeś sie w cudzego adwokata ale nie bardzo wiem o co ci chodzi Nie
                podejrzewam cię żebys był taki głupi i nie odróżniał Turcji od Iraku . Nie
                podejrzewam cię również żebyś nie wiedział kto wymógł na Turkach zmianę
                polityki w stosunku do Kurdów właśnie . Szkoda że nie oglądałeś reportażu
                Milewicza o Kurdach . Zobaczyłbyś m.in. obszerny wywiad z byłym partyzantem
                kurdyjskim , czterdziestoparoletnim mężczyzną , wyglądającym na
                siedemdziesięcioletniego starca , siłą wciągniętego do lewicowej partyzantki
                kurdyjskiej . Może nie wypisywałbyś tak pochopnie takich uproszczonych sądów .
                • Gość: Blong Re: Ilu ludzi zabił Saddam ? IP: *.zabkowska.sdi.tpnet.pl 30.01.03, 00:02
                  Gość portalu: wikul napisał(a):

                  > Zabawiłeś sie w cudzego adwokata ale nie bardzo wiem o co ci chodzi Nie
                  > podejrzewam cię żebys był taki głupi i nie odróżniał Turcji od Iraku . Nie
                  > podejrzewam cię również żebyś nie wiedział kto wymógł na Turkach zmianę
                  > polityki w stosunku do Kurdów właśnie . Szkoda że nie oglądałeś reportażu
                  > Milewicza o Kurdach . Zobaczyłbyś m.in. obszerny wywiad z byłym partyzantem
                  > kurdyjskim , czterdziestoparoletnim mężczyzną , wyglądającym na
                  > siedemdziesięcioletniego starca , siłą wciągniętego do lewicowej partyzantki
                  > kurdyjskiej . Może nie wypisywałbyś tak pochopnie takich uproszczonych sądów .

                  najprawdopodobniej propagandzista milewicz jakos zapomnial poinformowac ze ow
                  zly husejn wczesniej /przed powstaniem gdzie chodzilo czesciowo o ropne pola/
                  jako jedyny dal kurdom autonomie /co nie zrobila ta super fajna turcja/
                  ale wierz se w bajeczki, twoja sprawa
                  nikt nie broni husejna /bo kto normalny by to robil/ tylko niedobrze mi sie
                  robi patrzac na ludzi oglupionych jednostronna propaganda niezauwazajacych
                  sprawy szerzej - a zle podejscie turkow do kurdow jest faktem ktory ani tysiac
                  proamerykanskich propagandowek gnidy milewicza nie zmieni
                  • Gość: wikul Do Blonga IP: *.acn.waw.pl 30.01.03, 00:48
                    Wiem co Turcy robili ze "swoimi" Kurdami . Wiem również co robili z Ormianami .
                    I również co robili z naszymi antenatami . Ale jednocześnie powszechnie znana
                    jest historia o nieuznawaniu rozbiorów Polski i przychylność Turków w stosunku
                    do uchodźców z Rzeczpospolitej . Świat nie jest czarno - biały a ty jednak (mam
                    wrażenie)jesteś taki w stosunku do Amerykanów i ich polityki .
                    • Gość: Ania Re: Do Blonga IP: *.upc.chello.be 30.01.03, 00:53
                      Gość portalu: wikul napisał(a):

                      > Wiem co Turcy robili ze "swoimi" Kurdami . Wiem również co robili z
                      Ormianami .
                      > I również co robili z naszymi antenatami . Ale jednocześnie powszechnie znana
                      > jest historia o nieuznawaniu rozbiorów Polski i przychylność Turków w stosunku
                      > do uchodźców z Rzeczpospolitej . Świat nie jest czarno - biały a ty jednak
                      (mam
                      >
                      > wrażenie)jesteś taki w stosunku do Amerykanów i ich polityki .



                      A czy koniecznie trzeba byc przychylnym?Czy w USA Bush ma samych zwolennikow?
                      Zmieni sie prezydent i polityka byc moze rowniez ulegnie zmianie,ale minimum
                      obiektywizwu panowie.Nie robcie z tych Amerykanow bogow bo az mdlo sie robi,i
                      troche mniej hipokryzji.
    • Gość: Erica ~ 48 000 zabitych co roku w USA IP: *.dialsprint.net 30.01.03, 05:07
      Co roku w USA ginie w wypadkach samochodowych ~48 tys. ludzi.
      Wedlug prawodastwa amerykanskiego za smiertelna ofire wypadku uwaza sie osobe,
      ktora zginela na miejscu wypadku lub umarla w ciagu 24 godzin od poniesionych
      obrazen.

      W 2002 roku tylko zginelo na miejscu 212 motocyklistow, od czolowego zdezenia z
      jeleniem, ktory nagle wtargnol na droge z pobliskiego lasu lub krzakow.

      Wniosek: zabronic jazde samochodem w USA, gdyz to za soba pociaga tak straszne
      ofiary.
      • Gość: jr Re: babska logika IP: 203.129.132.* 30.01.03, 06:14
        Gość portalu: Erica napisał(a):

        > Co roku w USA ginie w wypadkach samochodowych ~48 tys. ludzi.
        > Wedlug prawodastwa amerykanskiego za smiertelna ofire wypadku uwaza sie
        osobe,
        > ktora zginela na miejscu wypadku lub umarla w ciagu 24 godzin od poniesionych
        > obrazen.
        >
        > W 2002 roku tylko zginelo na miejscu 212 motocyklistow, od czolowego zdezenia
        z
        >
        > jeleniem, ktory nagle wtargnol na droge z pobliskiego lasu lub krzakow.
        >
        > Wniosek: zabronic jazde samochodem w USA, gdyz to za soba pociaga tak
        straszne
        > ofiary.

        gratuluje analizy!

        gorge powiedzial krotko ze ameryka jest zainteresowana tylko w zapewnieniu
        bezpieczenstwa amerykanskim obywatelom. turcja nie stanowi takiego zagrozenia a
        irak tak to po kiego mieliby oni atakowac turkow - swojego sojusznika!?!?!

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