Gość: AdamM Nie masz racji - IP: *.icpnet.pl 22.03.03, 21:44 zamiast dać sie ponosić stereotypom, lepiej przeczytaj o czym wojo pisze. Mało to ma wspolnego z propagandą w moim rozumieniu problemu. Juz predzej jest to doinformowywanie czytelników z zamiarem przekonania ich do racji Izraela. Woja glos jest tu na FA potrzebny. A. Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: Burak Re: Nie masz racji - IP: *.sympatico.ca 22.03.03, 21:47 To mozna przeczytac na sieci o kazdej porze dnia i nocy. Myslalem, ze to jest wymiana pogladow, a nie edukacja. Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
czubas Buraczane poglady lepsze? 22.03.03, 22:36 Gość portalu: Burak napisał(a): > To mozna przeczytac na sieci o kazdej porze dnia i nocy. > Myslalem, ze to jest wymiana pogladow, a nie edukacja. Fajnie, ale jakos stalinizm mi sie nie podoba. Cenzura takze. Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
czubas Nie lubie cenzorow! 22.03.03, 23:32 Jakos zamykanie komus geby nie lezy w mojej naturze. Dlatego buraczane nawolywanie do cenzury nie podoba mi sie. Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
czubas Ale i propagandy nie lubie... 22.03.03, 23:36 ...tyle, ze ciezko czasami uznac co nia jest a co nie. Zreszta, to tez zalezy jak propagande rozumiemy. Nie jest nia na pewno przedstawianie swoich racji. Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
wojo!!!! Re: Nie masz racji - 22.03.03, 21:57 Gość portalu: AdamM napisał(a): > zamiast dać sie ponosić stereotypom, lepiej przeczytaj o czym wojo pisze. Mało > to ma wspolnego z propagandą w moim rozumieniu problemu. Juz predzej jest to > doinformowywanie czytelników z zamiarem przekonania ich do racji Izraela. Woja > glos jest tu na FA potrzebny. > > A. Doinformowanie , TAK ! I przekonanie czytelnikow do racji WOLNEGO SWIATA ,NASZEJ KULTURY i DEMOKRACJI. Jesli chodzi o Izrael to broni sie przed Islamistami ,ma instynkt obrony i moze byc wzorem razem z USA dla tej sprzedajnej prostytutki EU z Czyrakiem na czele. Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: robi Prośba IP: *.warszawa.cvx.ppp.tpnet.pl 22.03.03, 23:39 Wojo, ogranicz swoją misję edukacyjną do tego forum i nie wrzucaj swoich postów na forum UE, bo i tak nikt tam ich nie czyta. Tam toczy się polemika pomiędzy eurosceptykami i nidobitkami euroentuzjastów. Zarwóno jednych jak i drugich mało obchodzą twoje wynurzenia. Mimo wszystko pozdrawiam robi Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: maniekxxx wojo-propaganda IP: *.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 22.03.03, 22:39 siadnij przed komputerem -i postaraj sie byc wiecej obiektywny.Pytanie- do ciebie znajac historie narodu zydowskiego- dlaczego zawsze znajdujemy informacjie ze w krajach ktorych mieszkali zawsze istnial antysemityzm ,i inne formy przesladowania zydow-starczy kliknac na kazdy kraj w Europie ,USA.Kanada, Australia, niewspomne o krajach arabskich- czyli tam gdzie obcowano z zydami-dlaczego zawsze widzimy zawsze jeden glos,jeden obraz-wypowiedziany przez zydow-czyzby cala masa tych innych krajow -to sami mordercy.pili antysemityzm z piersi matki,-jak w ostatnim przypadku sprawa IRAKU- kraje ktore niepoparly ataku na IRAK-staly sie wrogiem zionistow i IZRAELA?.Ten sam styl oczerniania - zionisci stosuja od wiekow ,w oczernianiu ludzi czy krajow ktorzy , niechca stanac w jednym szeregu z ZIONISTAMI.Ten atak na IRAK- to jest pomysl amerykanskich ZIONISTOW-WOLFOWITZ,PERLE.FLESHER.ABRAHAM.Sprawa niewolnikow murzynskich - ZYDZI zorganizowali HOLOCAUST -czarnym mieszkancom AFRYKI- kiedy to zorganizowali polowanie i przywoz niewolnikow a potem sprzedarz -to byla domena ZYDOW- w tamtym procesie - przywozu niewolnikow murzynskich -zycie stracilo okolo 60-70 milionow ludzi.Okolo 40-50 milionow ludzi stracilo zycie w czeronej ROSJI- gdzie aparatem wladzy kierowali ZYDZI -a zwlaszcza ARMI CZERWONEJ i NKWD.UMIESZ po angielsku-to przeczytaj sobie tu linki dwoch zydowek -ktore byly w JENNIN podczas ubieglorocznej zaglady w obozie palestynskim www.gooff.com/NM/templates/Breaking_News.asp? articleid=467&zoneid=2 www.gooff.com/NM/templates/Breaking_News.asp? articleid=455&zoneid=2 tak tu jest kopletnie co innego co ty piszesz! Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: maniekxxx Re: wojo-propaganda IP: *.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 22.03.03, 22:43 UNTOLD: JENIN Facts by Prof. Tanya Reinhart by Prof. Tanya Reinhart of Tel Aviv University March 21, 2003 Avg. User Rating Click Here To Submit Your Review -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Israel, Jenin is perceived mainly as a public relations problem (called in Hebrew 'hasbara' -explaining). It appears even that the army and the government believe that Israel is winning the propaganda battle. After all, all relevant principles of this battle have been strictly adhered to the first principle: No pictures or information in real time! The IDF (Israeli army) managed to fully prevent the media from entering Jenin during the events. Thus, all we were left with were 'conflicting reports' - a stream of horrible accounts coming from Palestinian witnesses who escaped the refugee camp - and the IDF's utter denial. In the meanwhile, the work of destruction could continue undisturbed for ten days. On the seventh day of Israel's 'operation' in Jenin, (April 9), it was reported in the Israeli media that the army was nevertheless worried. "Officers of the IDF expressed their shock" about what happened in Jenin: "When the world will see the pictures of what we have done there, it will cause us enormous damage." (Ha'aretz Hebrew edition, Amos Har'el and Amira Hass, April 9, 2002). Peres even slipped and mentioned the taboo word "massacre" (which he immediately denied of course). Israel's counter attack was immediately launched. "The Foreign Ministry is mobilizing forces to counter Palestinian allegations that IDF forces conducted 'a massacre' in the Jenin refugee camp" (Ha'aretz, April 10, 2002). A special PR center of the IDF and the Foreign Ministry was formed in Jerusalem, and its representative, Gideon Meir, passed to the press the major principles of the Israeli version: a. "What happened in Jenin was a fierce battle and not a massacre." ("The main diplomatic ammunition" in the campaign's "arsenal is that 22 Israeli soldiers have been killed in the fighting"). b. "The battle was fierce because the IDF sought to minimize civilian suffering." c. The PR campaign should direct attention to the Israeli casualties in terror attacks. (Ha'aretz Hebrew edition, Anat Cigelman and Aluf Ben, April 9, 2002.) The second principle of the propaganda battle: If you have full control over the local media, you can pass anything. These messages have been repeated since, again and again, not only by all politicians and Israeli spokesmen, but also by almost every reporter, weaved into the news reports, and by the analysts and columnists, disguised as spontaneous acts of expressing an educated opinion. Here is Ha'aretz editorial version of the propaganda line: "There is evidence of intense combat, but, with appropriate caution, it can already be said what did not happen in the Jenin refugee camp. There was no massacre. No order from above was given, nor was a local initiative executed, to deliberately and systematically kill unarmed people" (Ha'aretz, April 19, 2002, editorial column). This line is pretty sophisticated. The word 'massacre' may bring to mind soldiers moving from house to house, shooting everyone they find -men, women and children (as in Sabra and Shatila). Such massacre clearly did not take place in Jenin. No Palestinian source ever described the facts this way (see (1) in the appendix). Still, Ha'aretz and everyone else insist on falsifying just this specific interpretation of the word. What did clearly happen in Jenin is that the army simply ignored the fact that there were an unknown number of individuals and families in the areas which were bombarded day and night by missiles from 'Cobra' helicopters, or even in some of the houses erased by bulldozers to pave ways for the tanks. No one came to shoot them individually; they were just buried under their bombarded or bulldozed homes. Others died of their wounds in the alleys, or cried for days under the ruins, until their voices faded away. Bit by bit, testimonies of reserve soldiers are filtering through the back pages of the Israeli media: "After the first moments of the fighting, when a commander was killed... the instructions were clear: shoot every window, sew every house - whether someone shoots from there or not." To the question whether he saw civilians get hurt, the reservist answered: "Personally - not. But the point is that they were inside the houses. The last days, the majority of those who came out of the houses were old people, women and children, who were there the whole time and absorbed our fire. These people were not given any chance to leave the camp, and we are talking about many people" (Ofer Shelah, Yediot Aharonot's weekend supplement, April 19, 2002). For many, such descriptions are sufficient to make them shiver, and they don't really care whether the right word for this is 'massacre'. For the success of the PR campaign, it is therefore necessary to stress that we are not talking here about shelling and killing civilians, but about a fierce battle, in which civilians may also get occasionally killed. According to the Israeli army, in the Jenin refugee camp, where 15,000 residents are crowded densely, there were a few dozen wanted terrorists, and several hundred armed men. What is considered appropriate for such battle conditions? The PR center clarifies this in its second principle above: It was possible to erase the whole camp, with its residents, with a few precise hits of F-16 bomber jets, and, thus, eliminate all the terrorists with no casualties to the Israeli army. But the army took an enormous risk of actual fighting, in order to save Palestinian life. If this is the range of options, The Israeli army proved in Jenin that it is a truly humane army. It may take a while before we (Israelis) start to digest what we did in Jenin. I don't have the words yet to speak about my shame, my horrible pain for the Palestinian people. Therefore I speak about what we did to ourselves. A dear friend of mine was murdered three days ago in a trip in Sinai - a painter and computer expert, in the draft resistance circle. By informal reports, his murderer was an Egyptian who sought revenge for the murder of the Palestinians. He could not distinguish between my friend and the nice reserve fellows from Jenin that we saw and heard so much about the last few days. In fact, they do look similar, and many of these guys are also in computer business. Itai Angel, the young journalist who interviewed reservists on channel 2 TV news last Friday night, has possibly managed to convince many in our little bubble that such nice guys, by their very nature, cannot possibly, commit a massacre. Therefore, there was no massacre - there was a fierce battle and we are OK. But outside our bubble, nobody watches Itai Angel. They watch the ruins of Jenin. We are turning the whole Muslim world against us. Appendix: The Battle over the Bodies (1) Reports on individual, purposeful, shooting of unarmed civilians by soldiers (executions) regarded only shooting of men. Here is one such testimony, reported in greater detail by the British 'Independent': "Fathi Shalabi watched his son die. The two men were standing side by side with their hands up when Israeli soldiers opened fire on them. Mr Shalabi's son, Wadh, and another man who was with them died instantly, but the 63-year-old Mr Shalabi survived. He lay on the ground pretending to be dead for more than an hour while his son's blood gathered around him... Mr Shalabi described what took place. Soldiers ordered his family and Mr Al-Sadi down a narrow alley. 'In cover behind the corner were four soldiers. The two young men with me were carrying baby children, and the soldiers did not Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: maniekxxx Re: wojo-propaganda IP: *.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 22.03.03, 22:45 JENNIFER LOEWENSTEIN BROKE THE SILENCE ABOUT THE JENIN MASSACRE......BUT DID ANYONE LISTEN? By Jennifer Loewenstein East Jerusalem March 20, 2003 Avg. User Rating Click Here To Submit Your Review -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From East Jerusalem on April 19, 2002 Jennifer writes: On Wednesday I left the wasteland of Gaza and came to East Jerusalem where it is easier to base oneself for traveling. For two days I stayed in the Jenin refugee camp, returning only late this evening. I know I will have to write about it soon in much greater detail than here, even though I know many people are doing this. The sorry truth is that it will not be nearly enough. What I saw in the former Jenin refugee camp was the most horrible thing I have ever seen in my life. I will never be able to forget it, or the people whose stories I listened to, or the sounds and smells that accompanied a kind of destruction I didn't know was possible: I now know the smell of death and what it is like to realize that you are standing on top of rubble under which people lie buried, unrecognizable and in many cases unreachable. I now know what tank shells, ammunition rounds, and missiles look like after they've exploded in peoples' bedrooms, family rooms, and kitchens. I heard a loud explosion just after the first long, endlessly awful day in the camp, and saw a pitiful shack on the perimeter of the camp go up in flames Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: maniekxxx Re: wojo-propaganda IP: *.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 22.03.03, 22:45 JENNIFER LOEWENSTEIN BROKE THE SILENCE ABOUT THE JENIN MASSACRE......BUT DID ANYONE LISTEN? By Jennifer Loewenstein East Jerusalem March 20, 2003 Avg. User Rating Click Here To Submit Your Review -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From East Jerusalem on April 19, 2002 Jennifer writes: On Wednesday I left the wasteland of Gaza and came to East Jerusalem where it is easier to base oneself for traveling. For two days I stayed in the Jenin refugee camp, returning only late this evening. I know I will have to write about it soon in much greater detail than here, even though I know many people are doing this. The sorry truth is that it will not be nearly enough. What I saw in the former Jenin refugee camp was the most horrible thing I have ever seen in my life. I will never be able to forget it, or the people whose stories I listened to, or the sounds and smells that accompanied a kind of destruction I didn't know was possible: I now know the smell of death and what it is like to realize that you are standing on top of rubble under which people lie buried, unrecognizable and in many cases unreachable. I now know what tank shells, ammunition rounds, and missiles look like after they've exploded in peoples' bedrooms, family rooms, and kitchens. I heard a loud explosion just after the first long, endlessly awful day in the camp, and saw a pitiful shack on the perimeter of the camp go up in flames Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: Burak Re: wojo-propaganda IP: *.sympatico.ca 22.03.03, 22:49 Hej, Maniek znowu cytujesz to co jest na sieci, nie wiedzac czyja propagande ? Jestes Semita czy Anty-semita ? Buzi, Burak Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: maniekxxx do buraka IP: *.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 22.03.03, 23:23 no cos ty chyba obrazasz mnie?-na powaznie te dwie zydowki z IZRAELA -naleza do waskiej grupy ludzi ktorzy walcza o pelne prawa czlowieka dla palestynczykow- i one tu wlasnie w tych linkach opisuja jak SS-zydowskie mordowalo palestynczykow w JENNIN.Zapewne pamietasz jak-zionistyczne mass media klamaly ze palestynczycy w JENNIN - maja sie na wczasach-tak samo jak zydzi w Oswiecimiu!.Poprostu te dwie zydowki - naleza do grupy ludzi ktorzy chca pokoju na swiecie-na zasadzie rownouprawnienia i partnerstwa -a z ZIONIZMEM nic niemaja do czynienia-typu MOSAD czy SHARON.Apropos na ktorej ulicy mieszkasz w TORONTO?-ja na DIXON RD Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: Burak Re: do manka IP: *.sympatico.ca 22.03.03, 23:34 Nie chcialem Cie obrazic - chcialem wiedzec jakiego wyznania jestes. Musze Ci powiedziec, ze cala polityka -Zydowska i ta po drugiej stronie smierdzi - po prostu brakuje uczciwosci, zydostwo dalo sie we znaki wszystkim przez cale pokolenia polakow, dlatego nie mamy dla nich duzej sympatii, ale nie moge powiedziec abym sympatyzowal z palestynczykami, ktorzy spieprzyli wszystko co mogli (w erze Clintona). A teraz rozrywaja sie jak fajerwerki za pieniadze Husejna. I ja nie mieszkam w Toronto. Czesc Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: maniekxxx do moshe- i wojo IP: *.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 22.03.03, 23:29 americandefenseleague.com/jewslave.htm americandefenseleague.com/jewslav2.htm tu jest link -o tym jak zydzi zajeli sie - pieczolowicie handlem niewolnikami murzynskimi Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: maniekxxx lista-zydow komuchow IP: *.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 22.03.03, 23:32 www.hoffman-info.com/communist.html Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: maniekxxx Re: lista-zydow komuchow IP: *.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com 22.03.03, 23:34 www.jewwatch.com/jew-communists.html Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś
Gość: Mosze To tez DZENIN... IP: *.red.bezeqint.net 22.03.03, 22:49 israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0204.htm# Mozna zobaczyc jak "nieboszczyk" wchodzi do zielonego przescieradla i udaje (greka) martwego... Kilka razy wypada i wchodzi sam...taka to prawda o Dzeninie i masakry... Odpowiedz Link Zgłoś