Thank you for all your responses to 26.09:15:56:00

IP: *.dynamic.ziplink.net 27.09.01, 04:00
...I was surprised to see so many in less than 24 hours, and I appreciate
them. I think that most of you have a clearer view of the situation than
many of my fellow Americans. Yes, we're awake now, but are we aware?

We are afraid. I think the whole world may be. But for us, it's a kind of fear
we've never known: our illusions of invinceability and impermeability have
been removed. This has challenged America's very identity - some very
fundamental beliefs have been rocked - and much of what I see here now
is a terrible, desperate grappling to hold on to the illusion of certainty that
nothing like this could ever happen to us. Because it has happened.

We in America have always believed that the government could and would
protect us. We have believed that all the wars we have fought, all the
bombs we have dropped have been in the interest of ourselves and of
freedom and democracy in the world. We need desperately to believe this
now...and yet we are confronted by hard truths.

It is almost forbidden now, here, to even question whether America's
policies and actions in the Middle East may have something to do with
what has happened. You cannot talk about it with your neighbors (or most
of them) - they'll tell you you're un-American, that you have no compassion
for those who died, or fury toward the attackers. To suggest that there has
been a long history of American activities in the Middle East, and that
America has not always been right, except in its own eyes, is heresy. No
one wants to hear it. It would make it too hard to maintain the illusion of
America as the benefactor of the world.

This illusion is what has allowed America to go shopping, confident that
the government was forging a path of justice all over the world. If there
was some nasty little skirmish, we'd watch it on TV and forget about it. I
am afraid that many Americans could only find Afghanistan on a map with
some effort. But many say they'd like to bomb it.

Venom, (great name) you really have got it right in your assessment of the
petro-powered vehicle situation. It is absurd - no, deranged - for us to be
using a 19th century transportation technology in the 21st century. We've
gone to the MOON, for God's sake! But yes, as long as no other vehicle is
produced, America's pursuits will be toward safeguarding the oil supply.
There was never another reason for America's persistence in the Middle
East. And for this we're on the brink of a war that endangers, possibly, all
life on this planet. But this is a most unpopular viewpoint here at home.

I'm going to cut this short now because my computer keeps crashing
when I write too much about America - I honestly don't think it's any kind of
censorship, but it is kind of wierd. So I'll send this now before I lose it -
already lost two today - and I hope you'll want to continue the discussion.

-Cody
    • Gość: Venom Re: Thank you for all your responses to 26.09:15:56:00 IP: 172.24.102.* / 192.168.14.* / *.121.135.227.host.de.colt.net 27.09.01, 18:52
      Thanks for your thanks. I feel a little bit more
      confident about the future now, as I have learned that
      there are still some people in the USA who use their
      brains. Perhaps that is what "silent majority" means
      today ?

      Nevertheless, the prospects look bad. I feel a lot of
      compassion for you. You have found yourself in a state
      of social detachment, which seems like some oppressive,
      totalitarian nightmare. The land of the free...

      I know this doesn't sound encouraging at all. I will
      present my opinion about the positive aspects of
      current situation (yes, I can see such aspects), but
      not today. Now, I have to hang off. Regards.
      • Gość: Cody Re: Thank you for all your responses to 26.09:15:56:00 IP: *.dynamic.ziplink.net 27.09.01, 20:01
        Gos´c´ portalu: Venom napisa?(a):

        > Thanks for your thanks. I feel a little bit more
        > confident about the future now, as I have learned that
        > there are still some people in the USA who use their
        > brains. Perhaps that is what "silent majority" means
        > today ?
        >
        > Nevertheless, the prospects look bad. I feel a lot of
        > compassion for you. You have found yourself in a state
        > of social detachment, which seems like some oppressive,
        > totalitarian nightmare. The land of the free...
        >
        > I know this doesn't sound encouraging at all. I will
        > present my opinion about the positive aspects of
        > current situation (yes, I can see such aspects), but
        > not today. Now, I have to hang off. Regards.


        I appreciate your understanding

        I too am feeling somewhat more hopeful due to recent developments.
        There is pressure on the States to produce the evidence liking bin Laden to
        the attacks. Colin Powell stated that this information would be made
        available to the public. Bush contradicted him the next day, citing, as usual,
        national security concerns; he then failed to furnish the evidence to NATO
        on the same pretext, which even some Americans can see is patently
        absurd. I'm happy to see that if America is to be the war horse, other world
        leaders are to some extent working as handlers. It seems almost
        miraculous to me that Bush has been deterred from the unilateral action
        that he at first sounded ready to undertake (in violation of international law, a
        fact that seems finally to have sunk in). He who has been going around
        arrogantly "neglecting" to cooperate with the other nations - his contempt for
        the Kyoto accord, anti-ballistic missile treaty, biological weapons protocol,
        the whole long list - has suddenly been put in a position of having to
        compromise and to make deals with the nations he wants to work with in
        this new quest. America's lost primacy gives me hope that collaboration
        with other governments (however forced) will result in a sane and legal
        effort toward justice. We shall see.

        I'm quite accustomed to detachment from America's dominant culture. But
        many my fellow Americans have not ever questioned even the possibilty
        that anything is wrong here. Even when this "president" was not elected but
        illegally appointed there was barely a murmur of dissent , and certainly
        outrage was a prevalent response. I still can't get over it . Now many are
        welcoming new legislation that would relax strictures on surveillance, in the
        belief that this is necessary for security - ready to give away rights to privacy
        that are nominally protected by the constitution. Already many large cities
        have installed cameras at large traffic intersections; this has been
        happening for several years. The ostensible purpose is to provide a
        photograph of cars that fail to stop for red lights. The driver gets a citation in
        the mail. There has been no objection. I have to wonder to what other use
        these cameras might be put. Now there is talk, in the wake of the attacks, of
        issuing national ID cards, "smart cards", containing information about each
        individual. People widely endorse this idea in the belief that it will somehow
        stop terrorism. ( No one notices that many of those involved in the attacks
        had lived in this country for several years, and lived fairly anonymous lives,
        and would most likely have been eligible to obtain such cards, had they
        existed, legally and in their own names. Two of the attackers who left from
        Boston had bought their plane tickets in their own names! There is good
        reason to believe that efforts are going to be made, opportunistically, to
        reduce some important civil freedoms in America...the land of the free...
        And the people, terrified as they (we) are, are in large part willing to sell
        some precious freedom in exchange for what will inevitably a false sense of
        security. Too bad.

        I'm interested to hear your assessment of the positive aspects.

        --Cody Kinski



        • Gość: Cody Re: Thank you for all your responses to 26.09:15:56:00 IP: *.dynamic.ziplink.net 27.09.01, 20:10
          Sorry, in the second paragraph I meant to say that outrage was not a
          prevalent response. That's probably obvious. - C
        • Gość: Venom Re: (including, but not limited to my view of positive aspects) IP: 172.24.102.* / 192.168.14.* / *.121.135.226.host.de.colt.net 28.09.01, 15:29
          Nice to hear from you again.

          I must admit I totally missed the news from NATO summon
          two days ago, hence yesterday I was referring to a
          scenario that had already become quite unlikely.
          Compared to what happened in Bruxelles, the positive
          aspects I previously wanted to write about are of
          somewhat minor importance.

          Anyway, you almost said it all. Now, I'll probably
          re-tell everything that you had in mind when writing
          your latest post, but that is also worth doing, just
          for the sake of coming to full awareness of all
          consequences.

          To make my point clear: I am not really happy with the
          fact that the USA have been taught a lesson of
          democratic legitimacy, i.e. I am very unhappy with such
          instance to have ever occured. There will be something
          to digest for these Americans, who are able and willing
          to wonder about the quality of their political system.

          However, on the highest level of outline, the
          democratic system as such seems to work.

          No evidence -> no prosecution -> no punishment (i.e. no
          war). That message came through only thanks to the
          democratic procedures, which were follwed strictly and
          despite ugly games of pressure played by Bush
          administration.

          Now, the worst case looks much better than two days
          ago. Still, the most apparent scenario is not very
          enjoyable for mind-users of the world.

          You mention about the ID card project. Well, in Poland
          (and - as far as I know - in majority of European
          countries) we have lived with this sort of surveillance
          for many decades. The ID booklet in Poland allows
          anyone who reads it to learn one's personal data, even
          such as: marital status, offspring, history and current
          address of habitation, employment and/or own business
          status (!) and many, many more...

          These booklets are the most visible legacy of communist
          regime, which unsurprisingly had a fixation to impose
          total control upon all aspects of social life.
          Therefore I believe I can claim myself an expert (and
          so can each and every Polish adult) on the subject of
          personal ID systems.

          The experience shows that the personal ID cards might
          probably support the law enforcement in case of minor
          offenders, but the organised crime and - obviously -
          terrorist groups would not be disturbed. As you have
          already pointed out, the men who executed the attack on
          WTC were all but scum with criminal track record.

          And this leads me to a very alarming conclusion: unless
          there are more than just criminal facts recorded in
          each individual's file, the ID system will not produce
          the presently advertised results.

          Good, old ID booklet has been successfully accomodated
          to the ways of democratic order in Poland. There exists
          a kind of unwritten consensus, which limits the use
          that can be made of it to strictly administrative
          purposes. If USA want to fight terrorists with ID card,
          its applications will have to go much beyond what is
          known from Poland and other European countries.

          These domains have so far been explored only by Orwell
          and alikes. Who knows, maybe soon you will find
          yourself in a very big house of a very big brother (as
          I write these words I spit three times over my left
          shoulder to avert the fatal prophecy :) ?

          As with regards to the American "dominant culture" you
          don't feel a part of, I'd insist on you to re-think
          that statement. Probably you call the "dominant
          culture" something, which actually isn't a culture at
          all.

          I mean hereby the anti-culture representing the
          prevalent tendency to avoid anything controversial,
          unusual, spontaneous, unrestricted or meaningful. This
          negative programme, which descended from twists and
          turns of political correctness is now about to produce
          its affirmative twin brother: patriotic compulsion.

          It is pretty obvious that people like you don't
          subscribe to that mindless flock instinct, but you must
          not take this situation for a proof of your cultural
          alientation. Quite the opposite. Most probably you are
          in the mainstream of American culture. If this culture
          is supposed to remain something more than a collection
          of the coolest ways to order pizza, its vital forces
          ought to radiate from the people who openly use
          language to express their true feelings and ideas.

          However, if you find the all-pervading dullness to be
          increasingly oppresive, you may consider emigrating to
          Europe, e.g. to Poland (sorry, I know this is not funny
          at all; I simply couldn't resist the slashing mockery
          of this reversal :)

          To end with something more optimistic I'll once again
          underline that in overall I do believe USA will
          overcome this tide of confusion. The Americans are very
          attached to their American Dream, hence any facts that
          contradict with the imagined perfection of their
          country need some time to sink in. But when they
          finally do, the urge for citizens of the USA to show
          their true greatness in action comes inevitably, like
          the day follows the night...

          With regards -
          Venom
          • Gość: Cody Re: (including, but not limited to my view of positive aspects) IP: *.dynamic.ziplink.net 29.09.01, 09:39
            Venom - just a note to let you know that I lost a rather long post tonight due
            to przerwa techniczna. Damn, damn, damn. It's 4am and I can't reconstruct
            even a part of it. Just to let you know I'll be back - hope you will too. -C




            Gos´c´ portalu: Venom napisa?(a):

            > Nice to hear from you again.
            >
            > I must admit I totally missed the news from NATO summon
            > two days ago, hence yesterday I was referring to a
            > scenario that had already become quite unlikely.
            > Compared to what happened in Bruxelles, the positive
            > aspects I previously wanted to write about are of
            > somewhat minor importance.
            >
            > Anyway, you almost said it all. Now, I'll probably
            > re-tell everything that you had in mind when writing
            > your latest post, but that is also worth doing, just
            > for the sake of coming to full awareness of all
            > consequences.
            >
            > To make my point clear: I am not really happy with the
            > fact that the USA have been taught a lesson of
            > democratic legitimacy, i.e. I am very unhappy with such
            > instance to have ever occured. There will be something
            > to digest for these Americans, who are able and willing
            > to wonder about the quality of their political system.
            >
            > However, on the highest level of outline, the
            > democratic system as such seems to work.
            >
            > No evidence -> no prosecution -> no punishment (i.e. no
            > war). That message came through only thanks to the
            > democratic procedures, which were follwed strictly and
            > despite ugly games of pressure played by Bush
            > administration.
            >
            > Now, the worst case looks much better than two days
            > ago. Still, the most apparent scenario is not very
            > enjoyable for mind-users of the world.
            >
            > You mention about the ID card project. Well, in Poland
            > (and - as far as I know - in majority of European
            > countries) we have lived with this sort of surveillance
            > for many decades. The ID booklet in Poland allows
            > anyone who reads it to learn one's personal data, even
            > such as: marital status, offspring, history and current
            > address of habitation, employment and/or own business
            > status (!) and many, many more...
            >
            > These booklets are the most visible legacy of communist
            > regime, which unsurprisingly had a fixation to impose
            > total control upon all aspects of social life.
            > Therefore I believe I can claim myself an expert (and
            > so can each and every Polish adult) on the subject of
            > personal ID systems.
            >
            > The experience shows that the personal ID cards might
            > probably support the law enforcement in case of minor
            > offenders, but the organised crime and - obviously -
            > terrorist groups would not be disturbed. As you have
            > already pointed out, the men who executed the attack on
            > WTC were all but scum with criminal track record.
            >
            > And this leads me to a very alarming conclusion: unless
            > there are more than just criminal facts recorded in
            > each individual's file, the ID system will not produce
            > the presently advertised results.
            >
            > Good, old ID booklet has been successfully accomodated
            > to the ways of democratic order in Poland. There exists
            > a kind of unwritten consensus, which limits the use
            > that can be made of it to strictly administrative
            > purposes. If USA want to fight terrorists with ID card,
            > its applications will have to go much beyond what is
            > known from Poland and other European countries.
            >
            > These domains have so far been explored only by Orwell
            > and alikes. Who knows, maybe soon you will find
            > yourself in a very big house of a very big brother (as
            > I write these words I spit three times over my left
            > shoulder to avert the fatal prophecy :) ?
            >
            > As with regards to the American "dominant culture" you
            > don't feel a part of, I'd insist on you to re-think
            > that statement. Probably you call the "dominant
            > culture" something, which actually isn't a culture at
            > all.
            >
            > I mean hereby the anti-culture representing the
            > prevalent tendency to avoid anything controversial,
            > unusual, spontaneous, unrestricted or meaningful. This
            > negative programme, which descended from twists and
            > turns of political correctness is now about to produce
            > its affirmative twin brother: patriotic compulsion.
            >
            > It is pretty obvious that people like you don't
            > subscribe to that mindless flock instinct, but you must
            > not take this situation for a proof of your cultural
            > alientation. Quite the opposite. Most probably you are
            > in the mainstream of American culture. If this culture
            > is supposed to remain something more than a collection
            > of the coolest ways to order pizza, its vital forces
            > ought to radiate from the people who openly use
            > language to express their true feelings and ideas.
            >
            > However, if you find the all-pervading dullness to be
            > increasingly oppresive, you may consider emigrating to
            > Europe, e.g. to Poland (sorry, I know this is not funny
            > at all; I simply couldn't resist the slashing mockery
            > of this reversal :)
            >
            > To end with something more optimistic I'll once again
            > underline that in overall I do believe USA will
            > overcome this tide of confusion. The Americans are very
            > attached to their American Dream, hence any facts that
            > contradict with the imagined perfection of their
            > country need some time to sink in. But when they
            > finally do, the urge for citizens of the USA to show
            > their true greatness in action comes inevitably, like
            > the day follows the night...
            >
            > With regards -
            > Venom

            • Gość: lokis Re: (including, but not limited to my view of positive aspects) IP: *.pl 29.09.01, 12:00
              > Gość portalu: Cody napisał(a):
              >
              > Venom - just a note to let you know that I lost a rather long post tonight due
              > to przerwa techniczna. Damn, damn, damn. It's 4am and I can't reconstruct
              > even a part of it. Just to let you know I'll be back - hope you will too. -C

              From this thread one might get a false imression that it is only Venom alone who
              cares about how the things are going on in America. Maybe that's because you
              posted it under the 'domestic' ("Kraj") folder ? Never mind, this impression is
              false anyway. I have followed the discussion and I'd probably agree with every
              single line typed here. I have been a silent spectator, because so far Venom has
              been able to express my opinions faster and in better English than me myself.

              I guess you don't need this advice anymore, but I'll give it anyway: when posting
              something lengthy always put a backup copy to notepad. On this site, the HTML
              forms in which you provide your input to the server are made in a very careless
              way. Even when you resize the form window, you may lose what you have typed so
              far. And when you post your text, the form is cleared without checking for status
              of your post attempt.
    • Gość: Cody Re: Thank you for all your responses to 26.09:15:56:00 IP: *.dynamic.ziplink.net 30.09.01, 01:39
      Let me try this again. If the American government is censoring me, it's at
      the additional expense of all those besides me who lost messages on
      Gazeta last night!

      There's an interesting pseudo-calm here tonight, as if many Americans are
      puzzled at the lack of televisable action on the part of Washington, and are
      therefore subdued. The situation is becoming more complex than most
      Americans had ever known to expect. In the terrifying first days after the
      attacks - indeed from the first moments - America rose up almost
      completely unified and cried in rage for blood. Not knowing what else to do,
      and scared out of our wits, we retreated to the memory of the way we
      experienced the Gulf War: entirely through the media. We liked that war.
      Almost nobody got killed - on our side. It was far away. We didn't get our
      hands dirty then. We just had to rally, lead the cheers, and tie yellow ribbons
      on everything in sight. And we won, didn't we? Incredible as it seems, there
      are still those who insist we did.

      The attacks had almost the effect of tearing a mask off America's face. And
      without the mask, America has had an unguarded moment in which it has
      been uncertain of its identity. From that moment, it seems many of us have
      reverted to portraying the certainty that the nation had at the time of the Gulf
      War. But it is a portrayal, and not a fact. The nation's howl has been for
      protection, and we thought this would mean bombs. It always has. I think
      some us are beginning to feel unprotected, are confused by the complexity,
      and are bewildered that George W. Bush, of all people, has failed to
      produce a more dramatic retribution. I believe there is the beginning of
      anger toward Bush now, and it's coming from a new quarter - the people
      who actually voted for him. We'll see where this goes as the situation
      develops. You know who's looking good, though? Colin Powell.

      I'm going to send this and continue on another page because I'm paranoid
      about losing another one in its entirety.

      • Gość: Cody Re: Thank you for all your responses to 26.09:15:56:00 IP: *.dynamic.ziplink.net 30.09.01, 02:59
        Gos´c´ portalu: Cody napisa?(a):

        > Let me try this again. If the American government is censoring me, it's at
        > the additional expense of all those besides me who lost messages on
        > Gazeta last night!
        >
        > There's an interesting pseudo-calm here tonight, as if many Americans
        are
        > puzzled at the lack of televisable action on the part of Washington, and are
        > therefore subdued. The situation is becoming more complex than most
        > Americans had ever known to expect. In the terrifying first days after the
        > attacks - indeed from the first moments - America rose up almost
        > completely unified and cried in rage for blood. Not knowing what else to
        do,
        > and scared out of our wits, we retreated to the memory of the way we
        > experienced the Gulf War: entirely through the media. We liked that war.
        > Almost nobody got killed - on our side. It was far away. We didn't get our
        > hands dirty then. We just had to rally, lead the cheers, and tie yellow
        ribbons
        >
        > on everything in sight. And we won, didn't we? Incredible as it seems,
        there
        > are still those who insist we did.
        >
        > The attacks had almost the effect of tearing a mask off America's face.
        And
        > without the mask, America has had an unguarded moment in which it has
        > been uncertain of its identity. From that moment, it seems many of us
        have
        > reverted to portraying the certainty that the nation had at the time of the Gul
        > f
        > War. But it is a portrayal, and not a fact. The nation's howl has been for
        > protection, and we thought this would mean bombs. It always has. I think
        > some us are beginning to feel unprotected, are confused by the
        complexity,
        > and are bewildered that George W. Bush, of all people, has failed to
        > produce a more dramatic retribution. I believe there is the beginning of
        > anger toward Bush now, and it's coming from a new quarter - the people
        > who actually voted for him. We'll see where this goes as the situation
        > develops. You know who's looking good, though? Colin Powell.
        >
        > I'm going to send this and continue on another page because I'm
        paranoid
        > about losing another one in its entirety.


        lokis, thank you for the tips. I did try to save it to a file when I saw the banner
        come on about the dreaded przerwa techniczna, but it only saved Venom's
        part that had already been posted. No great loss I suppose, but it is
        irritating. After I lost two others, last week, I called my ISP and asked them
        why the disconnections - they said they terminate after 30 minutes if a
        customer doesn't change screens! This is fixed now, though. The net is very
        primitive now, I think. Your English is fine, please post. I'm glad to know
        you're there.

        Venom, it's really interesting what you said about America having had a
        lesson of democratic legitimacy. I would not have have thought of it that way.
        It has a resonance suggesting the really epic nature of the things that are
        going on. You seem to suggest again later in the paragraph that begins "No
        evidence->' that America has been caused to live up to its own proclaimed
        principles. And that has had to include listening to what the rest of the world
        has to say. For a while, it did seem that this little rooster strutting in the
        barnyard was going to continue the Texas strut. He has at least become
        something more like a statesman - though the identity has yet to stick.

        And it's interesting to read in the world's papers reports of compromises
        America is making in order to achieve support that it first expected would be
        forthcoming without delay. These concessions - a sanction lifted here, a
        grant promised there, assurances to Putin that we'll leave when we're no
        longer welcome and not make any big changes in the Afghan government
        without asking him - are actually perceived by some Americans as
        humiliating! But that's democracy.

        I'm quite interested in your Polish ID booklets, since there seems to be
        some chance here that we'll have something of the kind - though I think
        even that seems to have lost some momentum. Do you have to carry them
        all the time? If so, what are the consequences of not having it? Is it a
        booklet like a passport?
        The card that is being talked about here is apparently like a credit card.
        Information would be encoded on a chip, it seems. I don't know how. I can't
        say that it's an entirely popular idea, but I guess something like 57% told
        some poll that it wouldn't bother them at all. Leaving aside the fact that
        there's no likelihood that it would achieve its stated purpose of deterring
        terrorism (as we've mentioned), apparently these respondents see no
        cause whatever to suspect it. (I can't help but remember now that when I
        was in grade school the nuns used to indoctrinate us kids against
        Communism by listing its terrors. One they invoked often was that in a
        Communist country people couldn't go anywhere without their "papers" - in
        contrast to the USA!) (And now in the USA if you want to get the sale price on
        something at the supermarket, you have to let them scan your store card.
        Every time you make a purchase, the information about that purchase goes
        into the store's database at the main headquarters. Then they know how to
        "serve you better", and hey, since they already know so much about you,
        they may as well sell your name to some advertising lists who then send
        you unsolicited advertising about the things the store told them you like to
        buy; then it's - perfect system - back to the store. I circumvent this kind of
        thing because it's kind of wierd. So the idea of a national ID card -
        particularly a "smart" one - is not very welcome. Thank you for your three
        spits. I hope they haven't come too late! :)

        But moreover, what you said: it will mostly be effective in prosecuting
        minor offenses. This bothers me because it's the minor offenses that most
        readily are prosecuted already, and our prisons are over capacity. Over two
        million people are in prison in America, and another three million are under
        at the least, intense and regular court-ordered surveillance. In 1971,
        200,000 people were in prison in America. The entire prison populations of
        France, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, Singapore, and the Netherlands
        could fit inside the penal insitutions of the state of California alone.


        Studies have been undertaken and the government has planned for the
        number of prisons that will be needed by the year 2020. This means that
        they are planning for the future incarceration of people who are now small
        children. And yet there are no similar figures regarding the building of new
        schools.

        It seems hard, when you're not used to the idea, not to suspect the ultimate
        function of an American ID card. Anyway it's not a certainty yet, and there are
        a few other things to think about.

        I wonder what you meant by your suggestion that I might be in the
        mainstream. I should be very shocked to find myself there. I assure you I'm
        quite mad. Or is that what you meant?

        Best -
Pełna wersja