penguin74 12.10.05, 16:13 I'm a chick looking for gay men to befriend. I have a lot of gay friends all over the world, but I live in Warsaw and haven't met any yet... Iza Odpowiedz Link czytaj wygodnie posty
usenetposts Re: Any gay men here? 13.10.05, 00:17 This is Poland. I don't think there are any gay Poles. When they had the illegal gay pride march which Kaczynski banned it was populated by liberal politicians allegedly "sticking up for" the gay community, but without being gay themselves, you understand. There were gays there, but they were flying picket gays shipped in from Germany, Bennylux, Scandywegia and other homogenic regions. Polish children grow up cherished and not neglected and corporally punished as in many societies, so the incidence of gayness is correspondingly lower. Your chances of finding gay men are probably highest among the foreign community. Odpowiedz Link
ianek70 Re: Any gay men here? 13.10.05, 10:10 usenetposts napisał: > This is Poland. I don't think there are any gay Poles. There's lots of gay Poles, especially in Poland. > Polish children grow up cherished and not neglected and corporally punished as > in many societies, so the incidence of gayness is correspondingly lower. It's more that the incidence of gays hiding their screaming queerness and getting married to avoid disappointing their parents is correspondingly higher. > Your > chances of finding gay men are probably highest among the foreign community. According to those in the know (and also those not in the know) seminaries and other priestly hang-outs are the best places. And, of course, gay bars and clubs. Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Any gay men here? 14.10.05, 00:15 ianek70 napisał: > usenetposts napisał: > > > This is Poland. I don't think there are any gay Poles. > > There's lots of gay Poles, especially in Poland. Really? Well I haven't met any. The only person I have met here who is gay is British. You don't see them on TV every day like in the UK, where it is hard to watch an evening's television without having some one of them mincing on the screen and trying to deprave the youth. In the UK, at University, I knew a lot of people who were gay, and they were "out". Even the minister of the Church I went to turned out to be one, and he gave up his ministry, left his wife and children and went to live with some guy in London. It was a major scandal, as this is not supposed to happen to Baptist ministers. I have lived here over 12 of the last 15 years and I still haven't met any Polish gay men. > > Polish children grow up cherished and not neglected and corporally punish > ed > as > > in many societies, so the incidence of gayness is correspondingly lower. > > It's more that the incidence of gays hiding their screaming queerness and > getting married to avoid disappointing their parents is correspondingly higher. Do you think so? If they would actually love to be with someone of their own sex and instead have sex with someone they are not attracted to just to please their parents, then I don't know where falls between stupidity, mistrust, lack of integrity and cowardice. That would be a terrible indictment on the whole nation, if it were so. > > Your > > chances of finding gay men are probably highest among the foreign communi > ty. > > According to those in the know (and also those not in the know) seminaries and > other priestly hang-outs are the best places. Of course the Catholic church has had its share of scandal for homo priests - but in places like America and Britain. Not here. > And, of course, gay bars and > clubs. Well, there we go. I've been here 12 out of the last 15 years. I have been to a whole bunch of places in my time, but I have never been to a gay bar or a gay club, and I wouldn't even know where one is. I don't think gayness fits this country any better than communism did. Polish people just ain't wired that way. Odpowiedz Link
ianek70 Re: Any gay men here? 16.10.05, 22:01 usenetposts napisał: > ianek70 napisał: > > There's lots of gay Poles, especially in Poland. > > Really? Well I haven't met any. You have. If you've lived here for years, you've met, known, bumped into thousands of different people. Even if 99.9% of them were hetero (statistically unlikely), then some of them weren't. Just because someone doesn't whistle "It's Raining Men" while handing you his business card "Jan Kowalski - Naczelny Homo" doesn't mean his boyfriend's a girl. > If they would actually love to be with someone of their own > sex and instead have sex with someone they are not attracted to just to please > their parents, then I don't know where falls between stupidity, mistrust, lack > of integrity and cowardice. It's probably a combination of fear, the natural human desire for a quiet life and the natural Polish instinct to blindly conform to what everyone else is doing. > Of course the Catholic church has had its share of scandal for homo priests - > but in places like America and Britain. Not here. There's no scandal about gay priests in Poland, because gay priests here are treated in the same way as pedophile priests. Or hetero priests, for that matter. They're either let off completely or ignored. > Well, there we go. I've been here 12 out of the last 15 years. I have been to a > > whole bunch of places in my time, but I have never been to a gay bar or a gay > club, and I wouldn't even know where one is. I was in one once. We were leaving some club or other in the wee small hours, the girls still wanted to dance, the boys needed more beer. A wee camp friend of a friend informed us that the only place we could be assured of both beverages and funk at such a time was a club he knew, but it's gay, does that bother us? No, he assured us, we don't have to prove which side we play for, and yes there's beer, we don't have to drink Martini with umbrellas. So we spent about an hour getting there. It wasn't far, but there were about 9 of us, and we had to phone round every taxi firm in town, under various different names, until we got 2 cabbies willing to take us to such a sinful place. Polish taxi drivers work for the same kind of honest, decent, moral gagsters as Scottish taxi drivers, but suddenly when they're asked to transport some pissheads to a club where there hangs in the air the constant threat of Freddie Mercury moustaches and the occasional woman almost as macho as your typical hetero Glaswegian babe, then they refuse. So discrimination doesn't have to be official. It was probably the same in Britain 30 years ago - gays aren't accepted, so they pretend not to be gay, so others think 'I don't know any gays, so who cares.' But now most people would think 'a couple of folk I know are gay, doesn't bother me, so why persecute them?' When the equivalent of Giertych's bootboys march against gays, feminists, or anybody else in a normal country, they get the shit kicked out of them. That's a fact. Here, they don't. Here you conform. Poles pretend to love the last pope, but it doesn't stop them shagging before marriage, or using contraception, or supporting America's wars. In Poland you look or act like a catholic hetero. But not everyone is... Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Any gay men here? 18.10.05, 00:26 ianek70 napisał: > usenetposts napisał: > > > ianek70 napisał: > > > There's lots of gay Poles, especially in Poland. > > > > Really? Well I haven't met any. > > You have. If you've lived here for years, you've met, known, bumped into > thousands of different people. Even if 99.9% of them were hetero (statistically > > unlikely), then some of them weren't. Just because someone doesn't > whistle "It's Raining Men" while handing you his business card "Jan Kowalski - > Naczelny Homo" doesn't mean his boyfriend's a girl. It seriously doesn't bother me if he is a homo, as long as he's not ramming it down everyone's throat. Let him get on with it. Live and let live, that's what I say. And that also means let heteros be able to carry on being what we are without trying to make out that if we are acting heteroes, then it's only because we're oppressing all the gays in our midst. > > If they would actually love to be with someone of their own > > sex and instead have sex with someone they are not attracted to just to > please > > their parents, then I don't know where falls between stupidity, mistrust, > > lack > > of integrity and cowardice. > > It's probably a combination of fear, the natural human desire for a quiet life > and the natural Polish instinct to blindly conform to what everyone else is > doing. > I think you may be mixing this country up with the Czech Republic. If this country were interested in conforming, it would have ceased to exist centuries ago. > > Of course the Catholic church has had its share of scandal for homo pries > ts - > > but in places like America and Britain. Not here. > > There's no scandal about gay priests in Poland, because gay priests here are > treated in the same way as pedophile priests. Or hetero priests, for that > matter. They're either let off completely or ignored. That's a fallacious argument which you cannot back up. You make the assumption that there are some, therefore if they are not reported, it is because they are "let off or ignored". Why aren't married priests "let off or ignored", then? Do you think marriage is a worse sin than sodomy or pedophilia for catholics? > > > Well, there we go. I've been here 12 out of the last 15 years. I have bee > n to > a > > > > whole bunch of places in my time, but I have never been to a gay bar or a > gay > > club, and I wouldn't even know where one is. > > I was in one once. > We were leaving some club or other in the wee small hours, the girls still > wanted to dance, the boys needed more beer. A wee camp friend of a friend > informed us that the only place we could be assured of both beverages and funk > at such a time was a club he knew, but it's gay, does that bother us? > No, he assured us, we don't have to prove which side we play for, and yes > there's beer, we don't have to drink Martini with umbrellas. > So we spent about an hour getting there. It wasn't far, but there were about 9 > of us, and we had to phone round every taxi firm in town, under various > different names, until we got 2 cabbies willing to take us to such a sinful > place. > Polish taxi drivers work for the same kind of honest, decent, moral gagsters as > > Scottish taxi drivers, but suddenly when they're asked to transport some > pissheads to a club where there hangs in the air the constant threat of Freddie > > Mercury moustaches and the occasional woman almost as macho as your typical > hetero Glaswegian babe, then they refuse. > So discrimination doesn't have to be official. Where was this, Scotland or Poland? > It was probably the same in Britain 30 years ago - gays aren't accepted, so > they pretend not to be gay, so others think 'I don't know any gays, so who > cares.' > But now most people would think 'a couple of folk I know are gay, doesn't > bother me, so why persecute them?' > When the equivalent of Giertych's bootboys march against gays, feminists, or > anybody else in a normal country, they get the shit kicked out of them. You cannot just use violence against people who are expressing their views. That is just an admission that you've got no arguments left. > That's > a fact. Here, they don't. Here you conform. Poles pretend to love the last > pope, but it doesn't stop them shagging before marriage, or using > contraception, or supporting America's wars. The Catholics in America also support the wars, so why shouldn't the Catholics in Poland? The War against Islam is only about Protestants and Catholics and atheists alike finishing the crusades the catholics started. We got distracted for a while by a century of commydom, but now we are getting back with the programme. > In Poland you look or act like a catholic hetero. But not everyone is... I don't look or act like a Catholic, and nobody bothers me. Odpowiedz Link
bartis_ervin Re: Any gay men here? 13.10.05, 10:31 "Polish children grow up cherished and not neglected and corporally punished as in many societies, so the incidence of gayness is correspondingly lower." I won't even react. Gayness is not a sickness. Of course there are gays since there is a lot of discrimination against them. Cause - effect. Ervin Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Any gay men here? 14.10.05, 00:03 bartis_ervin napisał: > > "Polish children grow up cherished and not neglected and corporally punished as > in many societies, so the incidence of gayness is correspondingly lower." > > I won't even react. Gayness is not a sickness. This is argument by assertion, not proof. One thing it isn't, and that's a genetic survival trait.And the reason for that is self evident. > > Of course there are gays since there is a lot of discrimination against them. > Cause - effect. I don't think there is any discrimination against them in the system whatsoever. They were not allowed to have their pride march, but heteros had not been allowed to flaunt their sexuality in a pride march either. Only afterwards there was a "parada normalnosci", but the media made the people who took part look like a bunch of Neo Nazis. > > Ervin > Odpowiedz Link
bartis_ervin Re: Any gay men here? 14.10.05, 09:48 "Only afterwards there was a "parada normalnosci", but the media made the people who took part look like a bunch of Neo Nazis." Not without any reason. You have to be joking if you say that the NOP "guys" are not Neo Nazis. I watched recently one of their election spots: they show very suggestively how they would handle homosexuals, immigrants and etc. - they show the rope. It wasn't my life's best experience when after Parada Normalnosci a couple of drunk guys with surprisingly short hair jumped into the tram car where I was. I somebody affirms that they are not Neo Nazis or they are in general peaceful, I would invite that person for such a ride. "I don't think there is any discrimination against them in the system whatsoever." Well, with this I don't have much experience, but I am sure that legally there is no discrimination against them. On the other hand, I am sure that it is very likely that the individual in the system might discriminate. The result is the same. Ervin Odpowiedz Link
speer Re: Any gay men here? 15.10.05, 11:58 Well, of cours there is a lot of discrimation in Poland against gay ppl. But officially nobody would recoginse it. Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Any gay men here? 15.10.05, 22:17 I'm not denying that Neo-Nazism exists, all I'm saying is that I'm sure that the majority of people could have been not Neo-Nazis, and if a handdful of Neo Nazis turned up, then the media would make a big deal out of them, and ignore the majority of people there who were nothing to do with it. Odpowiedz Link
russh Re: Any gay men here? 16.10.05, 18:05 Uncle Dave! Are you being serious? There is a good consensus of learned opinion that indicates that the probability is that homosexuality is genetic (in that it is 'created' before the birth). Another 'theory' says that a 'weak' father figure & an overbearing mother figure can influence sexuality. I lived in Italy for many years, which traditionally fairly chauvinistic, and found in normal life a good few gays. Maybe there are higher instances in certain areas or races, but for sure it is also to do with the attitudes of a nation towards its homosexual population. I am sure Poland has its fair share of gays! usenetposts napisał: > This is Poland. I don't think there are any gay Poles. When they had the > illegal gay pride march which Kaczynski banned it was populated by liberal > politicians allegedly "sticking up for" the gay community, but without being > gay themselves, you understand. There were gays there, but they were flying > picket gays shipped in from Germany, Bennylux, Scandywegia and other homogenic > regions. > > Polish children grow up cherished and not neglected and corporally punished as > in many societies, so the incidence of gayness is correspondingly lower. Your > chances of finding gay men are probably highest among the foreign community. > Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Any gay men here? 16.10.05, 20:15 russh napisał: > Uncle Dave! Are you being serious? I am being that mix of serious and not serious which I very regularly am. The point that I make in this thread is I feel perfectly valid, although I'm aware of how controversial it is when set against the received wisdom of the west. > > There is a good consensus of learned opinion that indicates that the probability > is that homosexuality is genetic (in that it is 'created' before the birth). > Well it would have to be that way, and I think that it no doubt the case that sexuality is genetic, as I remember seeing programmes about the partner choices of separated identical twins, which was one of the ways they argued this out. However, there are not that many separated pairs of identical twins, and so I don't think that we have ever got to what you might call a statistical sample. For unseparated identical twins the nurture element cannot be excluded. > Another 'theory' says that a 'weak' father figure & an overbearing mother figur > e > can influence sexuality. I lived in Italy for many years, which traditionally > fairly chauvinistic, and found in normal life a good few gays. > OK, I am not seriously saying that you can bring up a person to be gay who isn't really gay. That having been said, Freud's entire school of psychoanalysis was based on what your parents did to you. And if we say that homosexuality is a gene, then how has it survived? I do notice that in the societies where women prize themselves more, those who fail to get sex from women sometimes break something in themselves and go for the easy option of joining the homosexual community, where everyone is on the same wavelength, and sex is merely the question of one gay guy giving the other the nod. In Poland, where heterosexuals have few complexes about their sexuality, and casual sex is relatively easy to obtain, despite the much vaunted catholic morality, and paid sex is affordable to most men and not so heavily stigmatised as it is in the west, men see no need to help one another out in this way. They don't have to "settle" for gay sex when they really want straight sex. The argument that heterosexuals can exhibit homosexual behaviour for convenience if they cannot get what they want can be seen in the prison environment and the public school environment. It is well documented that people have been involved in such acts in those scenarios who do not even see each other as homosexuals. No one wants to admit to being a loser, so people who have made this choice to use other men so that they can have unbridled sex more easily are not necessarily going to admit to it. I think that this is why East Europe has so few gays in comparison to the west. I would predict that the more feministic Polish women become, the more people in this country are likely to show up the statistics of what happens in those countries. Italian women are already feminist enough to have generated "a good few gays" as you put it, in their country. everyone is apeing America, the epicentre of modern feminism and gayness. But as we know, the right wing backlash in that country is a force to be reckoned with, and that will happen in western Europe as well in due course. Here we already have it before the problem it has reacted to managed to get out of hand. > Maybe there are higher instances in certain areas or races, but for sure it is > also to do with the attitudes of a nation towards its homosexual population. I > am sure Poland has its fair share of gays! > You see, you say this, but I would say that if you are right, then what cowards the Polish gays must be not to come out now that they are even protected by the full force of EU law. You would think that if that were the case, once Poland signed up to the human rights act, any homosexuals that there were would come out of the woodwork. However, this is not the case. Knowing human nature, and the things people are willing and aren't willing to own up to, the explanation I just gave accounts for why we don't see gays in this country. And so the people who went on that march of gay pride were in the main Polish politicians expressing solidarity for gays but without being gay themselves, along with gays from other countries appalled at the President of Warsaw having the chutzpah not to bow to what the liberals of western Europe dictate. But when it went ahead, the actual headcount of Polish citizens claiming to be gay was far far below expectations. And the person who made the decision to ban it, which they illegally overturned, was accountable to the ballot box in this country, unlike the foreign wibberals who were telling him to stop. Odpowiedz Link
bartis_ervin Re: Any gay men here? 17.10.05, 09:48 "You see, you say this, but I would say that if you are right, then what cowards the Polish gays must be not to come out now that they are even protected by the full force of EU law. You would think that if that were the case, once Poland signed up to the human rights act, any homosexuals that there were would come out of the woodwork." Where was the EU law when Kaczysnki decided not to authorise the parade? This is how we had a ridiculous scene: the police was protecting an unauthorised parade. Looks like the police understood that international treaties are above national legislation. If a gay person would come out on national TV with real name I bet that in one week some guys with short hair would beat this person. If a gay couple would walk hand in hand in Praga around 21.00 in the evening the same guys with short hair would "take action". The "full force of EU law" seems a joke in these situations.. Ervin Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Any gay men here? 18.10.05, 00:31 bartis_ervin napisał: > "You see, you say this, but I would say that if you are right, then what coward > s > the Polish gays must be not to come out now that they are even protected by the > full force of EU law. You would think that if that were the case, once Poland > signed up to the human rights act, any homosexuals that there were would come > out of the woodwork." > > Where was the EU law when Kaczysnki decided not to authorise the parade? This i > s > how we had a ridiculous scene: the police was protecting an unauthorised parade > . > Looks like the police understood that international treaties are above national > legislation. I expect that what they did was to take the line that would best protect the peace bearing in mind that the march was happening de facto. > > If a gay person would come out on national TV with real name I bet that in one > week some guys with short hair would beat this person. If a gay couple would > walk hand in hand in Praga around 21.00 in the evening the same guys with short > hair would "take action". The "full force of EU law" seems a joke in these > situations.. > > Ervin This is again an assumption on your part. It's a pity I'm not a programme maker for TV, as I would take you challenge and put some gays out in Praga at night and covert film the scene, with some heavy security behind the scenes to intervene if what you predict did happen. I don't think much would happen, though. This is in fact a highly tolerant country. Odpowiedz Link
bartis_ervin Re: Any gay men here? 18.10.05, 09:51 "This is again an assumption on your part. It's a pity I'm not a programme maker for TV, as I would take you challenge and put some gays out in Praga at night and covert film the scene, with some heavy security behind the scenes to intervene if what you predict did happen. I don't think much would happen, though. This is in fact a highly tolerant country." In this case of course it's assumption. Although I know personally about a case when a refugee from Africa was beaten to death. The police version indicates that it is about hate crime, but until now they did not manage to arrest those who did it. To bad that you are not working in TV Maybe you know somebody who does work in TV? Maybe Polish who read this won't agree with me, but I don't think that Poland is more tolerant that Slovenes, Hungarians, Italians or Romanians. I stayed in these countries so I rather mention them. Of course, there are hate crimes everywhere, I could even say concrete examples for each country. But I think what makes Poland different from the countries above is that religion is very present in almost all fields of society and quite high on the political agenda. It was surprising for me how much religion was present in the election campaign. When the religion is in contradiction with human rights principles I would say that in general Polish tend to be not so tolerant, especially the generation above 40-45. This is what I've experienced, maybe some have a different experience. In Romania the Orthodox church is also strong though not so present. For e.g. "The last temptation of Christ" couldn't be shown on Romanian TV for years because of the intervention of the church. Eventually they aired the movie but at 2 at night. Jehovah's Witnesses congres could not take place because of teh pressure of the church. But things are changing. Just like in Poland, this year in Bucharest the gay parade was a huge issue. Eventually the Mayor authorised it and I think this way the authorities are giving a positive sign. This is a huge development if we think that 3 years ago two guys who kiss each other in public could go to jail and be persecuted according to the Penal Code. Dave, you've been in Hungary and in Romania, probably in Slovenia too. You think that Polish are more tolerant? Ervin Odpowiedz Link
kylie1 Re: Any gay men here? 18.10.05, 05:48 The concept of gays in our Canadian society is not a big deal. It does not shock anybody anymore. It's not to say that everybody accepts the situation. Even though gays are protected by law and by all accounts they should feel safe, hate crimes against them are still a comon place. Thousands of antigay crimes are reported every single year. Many thousands more go unacknowledged because the victim survivors fear further victimization. It's not a nice picture. It's usually gay men that are found dead after being beaten up somewhere in the parking lot or in a dark alley. It's downright ugly and disgusting. I don't know how common it is in Poland but we have a number of issues regarding gays and it's not always as rosy as most people think... Odpowiedz Link
portulaco Re: Any gay men here? 18.10.05, 14:31 Hi people! During my Eramus I used to go to every single bar and dancing place in Lodz, I must say that I crossed with some gays and I recall one of them was quite eager to show his place to some of us And yes... Poland is very conservative and doesn't accept too well the idea of somebody having different sexual tendency, but I guess that has to do mostly with the influence of church all over Europe especially Catholic church, please understand that I'm from Portugal, a conservative catholic country too and nowadays this is changing mostly in urban centers. Believe me or not, the political influence of church and Opus Dei is loosing for the Freemasons and other political lobbies since the end of 80's. Spanish Opus Dei for sure is still higly shocked with the Gay Marriage law, about Poland I do believe it will take a few generations until changes will be noticed. Odpowiedz Link