France is in trouble

07.11.05, 13:15
www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,16518,1636101,00.html
Chirac calls emergency meeting of top ministers
President Jacques Chirac called an emergency meeting of his top ministers
last night as urban unrest escalated further, touching the historic heart of
Paris for the first time.
Late last night rioters shot and injured 10 police officers, two seriously,
when security forces confronted 200 stone-throwers. One officer was treated
in hospital for shotgun wounds to the throat, and another for leg wounds. The
gunmen were among crowds attacking police in Grigny, south of Paris.

Rioting was once again widespread. Youths seized a bus in Saint-Etienne, in
southern France, ordered passengers off, and torched the vehicle; its driver
and one passenger were hurt, officials said. In Rouen, in the north, rioters
pushed a burning car against a police building; nobody was hurt, police said.
Cars were also burned in Nantes, Rennes and Orleans.
A national police spokesman said a total of 2,200 cars were burned around the
country on Friday and Saturday nights, including in previously untouched
cities or towns like Nantes in the west, Avignon in the south and Evreux in
Normandy.

Residents and local officials vented both anger and frustration as the
violence, set off by the accidental deaths of two youths 10 days ago,
continued to spread despite repeated pleas for calm.

Almost 550 people were arrested over the weekend - mostly black African
youths aged 14 to 25 in depressed city suburbs. Police used seven helicopters
over greater Paris to film disturbances and to direct nearly 4,000 officers.
But one interior ministry official admitted it was "very hard" to counter
small, highly mobile bands of youths, who communicate by mobile phone and are
intent on causing "maximum material damage" while avoiding "all confrontation
with the police". After 50 cars, a post office, two schools, and a shopping
centre were destroyed in his town, Jean-Louis Debré, the conservative mayor
of Evreux, said: "Fewer than 100 people have smashed everything and wreaked
desolation. They are not part of the same universe as us."

Evidence emerged that the rioters, if not organised on a national scale, were
coordinating locally: police in Evry, south of Paris, found a petrol-bomb
factory.

Mr Chirac came under pressure to address the nation. The left demanded
interior minister Nicolas Sarkozy resign, accused of inflaming passions by
calling troublemakers "yobs" and "scum". Many rioters say they are determined
to make Mr Sarkozy pay for his "insults". A poll yesterday found 57% (and 78%
of rightwing voters) approved of his overall approach, 62% believed he was
trying to resolve things; however, 63% felt he used language "shocking" for a
minister.
---
It seems that the bubble has burst. They're even burning tourist coaches, one
of which was from Poland, as yet no news if anyone was harmed.

The insurance guys are probably tearing their hair out.
    • portulaco Re: France is in trouble 07.11.05, 13:49
      I posted this in another topic:

      The recent happenings in France are the proof that Europe is facing a general
      discontentment and politicians don't know how to cope with this.

      Blind and unjustified fury against private property as we see in France and now
      even in Belgium and Germany are - between others - the result of decades of
      fake promises disajusted urban organization and discontrolled immigration.

      Shengen space and the construction of a so called New Europe seems to be more
      and more far away from becoming reality and closer to utopia.

      Any country in EU want's to assume responsability in the causes for the
      beginning of a general clash in our continent.

      As George Orwell said; "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a
      revolutionary act".

      And I add this now:

      Social and economical contrasts in EU are more and more visible.

      Decline of moral and social values in France, social security beneficts the
      history of France and the gigantic ghettos in the outskirts of important cities
      enabled the growth of a "Marginal State" inside "La Republique", it seems that
      torching cars was already a great problem in France since 70's! Nothing new
      apart from the duration of this clash.

      I guess May 68 will seem a children's play comparing to what is coming, and
      it's not my pessimism.
      • nicolas1981 Re: France is in trouble 07.11.05, 14:38
        fiu fiu i w srode lece do Paryza
        Zegnamsmile
        fiu fiu I'm frnech and Im leaving for Paris for a few days on wednesday
        farewell
    • bartis_ervin Re: France is in trouble 07.11.05, 14:43

      Yes, indeed.

      I am pacifist, but one things is sure: the order needs to be restored. I have no
      problems with Sarkozy calling troublemakers "scums": people who are setting
      cars, churches, schools on fire and causing social unrest deserve to be called
      like that.

      The two kids died. It is a tragedy for the families, but the police didn't
      executed them: they just ran to the wrong place (doesn't matter if they were
      chased or not).

      On one hand, this is a slap for colonial France. I am not so much aware of the
      social policies directed towards migrants, so I cannot say about this.
      On the other hand, migrants have too huge expectations when reaching Europe:
      here is not heaven and discrimination is waiting for them in most places. That's
      the truth.

      Unfortunately the cause of all this unrest runs a lot deeper. The spiral of
      violence was started, I wonder when and how it will end. And I wonder if it'll
      spread to other countries..

      Ervin

      thebartiski.blogspot.com
      • portulaco Re: France is in trouble 07.11.05, 15:29
        Many of those old Renault 19 and Peugeot 405 burned belonged to people from
        the "quartiers" around this cities, people who cannot buy better cars and
        almost for sure have plenty of difficulties to pay not only the vehicles but
        also insurance and petrol for them.

        I was browsing in some French blogs and it seems to be considered fun setting
        cars on fire - except if they belong to they're families - like one of the
        blogers was saying "if one day I will wake up in the morning with my rust-f***
        burned I will finish shooting somebody in the brain"...

        What I really see is a carefull action from French media to show images of the
        conflit as some kind of Nero singing wyle Rome burned.

        • nasza_maggie Re: France is in trouble 07.11.05, 15:41
          portulaco napisał:

          > What I really see is a carefull action from French media to show images of
          the
          > conflit as some kind of Nero singing wyle Rome burned.
          >
          can you elaborate on that?
          • portulaco Re: France is in trouble 08.11.05, 11:31
            Sure

            In order to avoid further conflits and the awakening of Extreme Right parties
            like Le Pen,French media are beeing carefull with the duration of images, if in
            one hand they avoid promotion to the vandals on th other hand they minimize the
            real problem of France, last Sunday whyle Paris was in trouble TV5 showed the
            happy French people talking and dancing.

            Anyway it's too late.
            • nasza_maggie Re: France is in trouble 08.11.05, 11:45
              local censorship you mean?

              too late for what?
              • portulaco Re: France is in trouble 08.11.05, 12:38
                No. Opinion makers I mean.
                • portulaco Re: France is in trouble 08.11.05, 12:39
                  It was too late to minimize the importance of the riots.
                  • usenetposts Re: France is in trouble 14.11.05, 12:14
                    One thing that is interesting with regard to this sacking of Paris by islamists
                    is that they have behaved, in a way, worse than Nazis.

                    When Hitler was losing his grip on power he ordered his general in control of
                    Paris to sack the city and smash it up so that not one stone was left on
                    another, as his troops had already done to Warsaw, but the General forebore to
                    carry out this order, as he had respect to the beauty of the French capital,
                    and its monumental architecture.

                    These people have no finesse about them, they just go around France now burning
                    and breaking. I personally support Sarkozy's initiative in deporting them. The
                    first deportations are scheduled to start this week. If they do not appreciate
                    their life in our European Union, then they are welcome to go back to their
                    bedouin existence.

                    On the other hand I decry the timing and the method of the intervention by
                    Barroso, promising 55 Mln Euro for the banlieux of Paris. Did the French
                    government ask for this money? Were they in the queue for this money? What
                    about their budget deficit that has not yet been brought back into EU
                    guidelines? What about the promised structural funding for the East of Europe,
                    including this country, Poland, that was promised but is so slow in actually
                    materialising?

                    President Barroso has sent a message to all of Europe that if you want any
                    money, better burn some cars and make a riot. It will serve him right if the
                    next lot are in Lisboa. But of course they will not be, because Portugal had a
                    very conservative immigration policy, and therefore has much fewer of these
                    problems to deal with than France or Spain, so now he can pour oil on their
                    fires with relative impunity, knowing his own country is not in the firing line.

                    I admit that there is an element of poverty and despair in the rioting, but
                    they are not the poorest people in Europe. They are incomers, but better off
                    than many native Europeans. And as for timing, I don't see how Barroso's
                    announcement could have been any worse.

                    The message to Poland is clear - if you want the money you were promised,
                    better burn a few rich people's cars, or you will not get it.

                    Thanks, Barroso.
                    • nasza_maggie Re: France is in trouble 14.11.05, 12:34
                      Do you think the recent events in France will give Le Pen more political power
                      in the next elections?

                      Also, if they deport the rioters, will this not make them more determined to
                      come back to Europe as 'suicide bombers'?

                      I agree with the 55 million funds seemed to just 'drop' from the sky in this
                      case. It has already been said, that in countries like the Uk, France and
                      Germany, the immigration problem is so vast because of comfortable social funds.
                      • portulaco Re: France is in trouble 14.11.05, 14:25
                        Lobbies...

                        Durao Barroso resigned as Portuguese Prime Minister to be in the EU leaving my
                        country in a political crisis (what to expect from him).

                        Barroso want's France to back the referendum for EU constitution.

                        Barroso is a Yes man of the G8, Bush and Blair administration.

                        Durao Barroso doesn't want more problems with Turkeysh.

                        Durao Barroso is a member of the freemasonry (Grande Oriente Lusitano)like most
                        of important figures in French (Grand Orient de France) government and EU
                        (Valéry Giscard D'Estaing for example).

                        Read this:

                        Barroso's statement ruling out a supercommissioner for economy and
                        competitiveness might upset some Member States who had supported industry's
                        wishes on the Lisbon agenda. It was said that the new Commission President got
                        the support from France and Germany after having promised that Germany would
                        get the Lisbon supercommissioner and France would receive the competition
                        portfolio in Barroso's future team. If this were true, the new Commission
                        President might be in for a conflict with the two big countries, which would
                        not bode well for the beginning of his mandate.

                        • russh Re: France is in trouble 14.11.05, 15:08
                          The previous EU president was Romano Prodi. He was the Prime Minister of Italy,
                          until his own coalition outed him for being useless. What do they do? Send him
                          to the EU!

                          Barroso; the same. He was the contender that no-one found objectionable. Not the
                          best contender. There were far better on offer from other countries (including
                          Chris Patten from the UK), but national pride got the better.

                          The EU cannot ever function well with 2nd raters, but can never have the best
                          because national pride won't let them (the national prime ministers who appoint
                          the president) admit that the best may not be theirs.

                          Result: The EU cannot ever function well.
                          • bartis_ervin Re: France is in trouble 14.11.05, 19:36

                            I think that the political situation in Italy was a lot more complicated. It's
                            not really possible to describe the situation by saying that the coalition
                            thought that he is useless.

                            Ervin

                            thebartiski.blogspot.com
                            • russh Re: France is in trouble 14.11.05, 21:12
                              Maybe an exageration, but the reality was that he could not keep his coalition
                              together, and the comments that were being made about him at the time from his
                              own coalition members were, at worst, very near to saying he was useless.

                              The amazing thing is that he is being promoted as the lead candidate for the
                              same coalition in next years elections!

                              Anyway, the gist of what I was saying was that the EU ends up with 2nd raters.
                      • usenetposts Re: France is in trouble 14.11.05, 23:06
                        nasza_maggie napisała:

                        > Do you think the recent events in France will give Le Pen more political
                        power
                        > in the next elections?
                        >

                        I should think so. Although an appropriate response by Sarkozy's party getting
                        behind his current initiatives may make Le Pen redundant. If Sarkozy takes a
                        step to the right then people will support him as a man in a position to take a
                        firm decision, and their support of him will still be okay, and not too right
                        wing, because they supported Sarkozy and not Le Pen.

                        If Sarkozy's party put the mockers on his initiative, then the country will be
                        more likely to give a mandate to the far right, as many fairly right wing
                        people will be frustrated if he cannot flex his muscles a bit and come down
                        hard on the rioters.

                        > Also, if they deport the rioters, will this not make them more determined to
                        > come back to Europe as 'suicide bombers'?
                        >

                        Usually deportation mean you get a stamp in your passport. If they go back to
                        countries which have governments friendly to us, they will not be allowed
                        simply to change their documents that easily. Quite frankly there are so many
                        potential suicide bombers already that a few more is no real difference. 30% of
                        British moslims refused to denigrate the July attacks as shown in a MORI poll
                        commissioned by no less than the Guardian.

                        We are already in deep trouble, and pussy-footing is not gonna make it go away,
                        neither is paying Danegeld to the muslim pressure groups who will only use that
                        money to increase their power base.


                        > I agree with the 55 million funds seemed to just 'drop' from the sky in this
                        > case. It has already been said, that in countries like the Uk, France and
                        > Germany, the immigration problem is so vast because of comfortable social
                        funds
                        > .


                        And now not only will we be encouraging them to come, but we will be
                        encouraging them to riot and behave like yahoos when they get here.
                    • russh Re: France is in trouble 14.11.05, 14:25
                      Couldn't agree with you more.

                      1. The problem is enormous, and cannot be tackled with money or deportation. I
                      believe (and this goes for the UK as well, which has similar problems that have
                      become aggravated following 7/7) that you can only begin to solve the problems by:

                      a) Stopping all immigration with the exeption of those that are needed to solve
                      a resource problem. Where they would be accepted under this criterion, the
                      authorities have a duty to ensure as best as possible that no potential
                      trouble-makers are allowed in.
                      b) Punishing all incitement to racial or religious hatred.
                      c) Working hard to integrate all the various factions. God knows how, but it has
                      to be done, for without effective integration (and this does not mean that
                      everyone has to be the same, but that everyone must be both tolerant &
                      tolerable), there will never be a peaceful society.

                      I lived in the UK for more than 35 years, in an area that even in the 60's and
                      70's was multy-cultural. There were some problems, but nothing that wasn't
                      resolved easily. It seems that today the problems have become exacerbated by the
                      Islamic Fundamentalists that are mainly young, very impressionable, and out of
                      their parents control.

                      It is this segment of the population that must first be bought into line. As you
                      say, it (the problem) is not just of poverty, as most of them have at the very
                      least the basics (and probably much, much more; mobile telephones, cars, IPods etc.)

                      One of the things (towards resolving the problem) that worries me though is that
                      in order to resolve this problem, the remainder (the vast majority) of Muslims
                      must get off their backsides and support the countries that have accepted them,
                      even if it means going against what they perceive to be their 'own kind'. So far
                      I have not seen this happen. This makes the problem, in the eyes of the
                      'majority' natives, a racial problem. This is a great pity, for this leads to a
                      far greater overall level of national unrest.

                      How has it started? I don't know. How will it finish? I can only hope without
                      what I believe to be inevitable at the moment: A big, bloody war that may even
                      dwarf WW2.

                      This is not an anti-Muslim stance (I have many Muslim friends), but an objective
                      appraisal of what I perceive to be the problem.
                    • russh Re: France is in trouble 14.11.05, 14:31
                      PS. The 55m Euros is just another example of the political naivety of the EU.
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