Isn't British and American culture overrated?

01.12.05, 09:42
Living in US, and paying attention to its media one get impression that
Shakespeare was not only the best, but only poet that ever lived in the whole
World. (Given 99% programs about poetry are.... about Shakespeare)

Also watching Hollywood and its Academy Awards one can't be mistaken that no
other country than; USA and UK has actors and is producing movies....

Who else could name its national Baseball Championship (where only teams from
USA participate); "A World Series"......and a team that wins American
championship is proudly proclaimed...."A World Champion"???

Somebody needs a cold shower.
    • usenetposts Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 05.12.05, 01:25
      No doubt you have a point, but what can you say but "their loss"?
      • waldek1610 Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 05.12.05, 06:35
        usenetposts napisał:

        > No doubt you have a point, but what can you say but "their loss"?


        Can you restate that, I'm not sure whad did you mean by that? If you mean "it's
        their problem"... I disagree, I actually think it's the fault of "the rest of
        the World" that we're falling for this "anglo-americacn bubble"...
        • usenetposts Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 06.12.05, 20:51
          waldek1610 napisał:

          > usenetposts napisał:
          >
          > > No doubt you have a point, but what can you say but "their loss"?
          >
          >
          > Can you restate that, I'm not sure whad did you mean by that? If you
          mean "it's
          >
          > their problem"... I disagree, I actually think it's the fault of "the rest of
          > the World" that we're falling for this "anglo-americacn bubble"...

          Dobrze, to powiem Ci po polsku, bo będzie Ci latwiej.

          Powiedziałem, że na pewno masz trochę rację, ale coż, co można powiedzieć
          oprócz to, że oni (czyli ci, którzy nie znają innych kultur, oczywiście) mają
          przez to stratę.

          Amerykanie pokazują sposoby, aby promować swoją kulturę. Nic nie stoi na
          przeszkodzie, aby inni tak samo zrobili. Większość ludzi jednak, chcąc
          upowszechnić swoją kulturę, tłumaczą utwory te na język angielski, tym samym
          postawiając te dzieła w boisku dominowanym przez utworów native speaker'ów.
          • waldek1610 Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 08:17
            usenetposts napisał:

            > Powiedziałem, że na pewno masz trochę rację, ale coż, co można powiedzieć
            > oprócz to, że oni (czyli ci, którzy nie znają innych kultur, oczywiście) mają
            > przez to stratę.
            >
            > Amerykanie pokazują sposoby, aby promować swoją kulturę. Nic nie stoi na
            > przeszkodzie, aby inni tak samo zrobili. Większość ludzi jednak, chcąc
            > upowszechnić swoją kulturę, tłumaczą utwory te na język angielski, tym samym
            > postawiając te dzieła w boisku dominowanym przez utworów native speaker'ów.

            I must point out that your polish is quite outstanding for the british
            person..Translation of the literature into english is not the way to promote
            polish, french or whatever culture. Rather they sould find ways to teach englo-
            americans polish, french or whatever language..


            I think poles should pay less attention to anglo-american culture; movies,
            cable channels, music etc...and focus more on catering for polish tastes.

            If everybody outside of the USA followed that policy, the Hollywood bubble
            would soon burst, because the long 260 US milion market is not able to support
            it. I'm tired of hearing about american and british actors, and nothing at all
            about polish, or others...it's like they didn't even exist...
            • kylie1 Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 08:52
              I agree with you here, Waldek and I really hear what you are saying. The
              Hollywood glitz and all its garbage that goes with it like: with who sleeps
              with who, who divorced who and how much dope the offsprings are into...all that
              crap is just mind boggling. Think idiotic shows like "Celebrity
              Justice", "Extra", "Inside Edition". No one I know watches that kinda trash.
              Like really is that what America is what about? But that's supply and
              demand.That's business...unfortunately. I rememeber talking to a kid and asked
              him if he knew who Chopin was. His reply was: "Was he playing for Red Sox?" Say
              no more.

              > I think poles should pay less attention to anglo-american culture; movies,
              > cable channels, music etc...and focus more on catering for polish tastes.

              Right, but everybody else does too. Besides they like it! Hollywood business
              doesn't show any signs of cooling down. It's still going strong and I feel we (
              right here) need a bigger exposure to movies made in France, Germany, England
              or even Poland for that matter. It was kinda strange watching a Polish movie
              when I rented out one a couple of years ago. I thought people were mad at each
              other and kept yelling at each other all the time. They were constantly upset
              and uptight.I hope not all the movies are like that.

              smile

              • russh Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 10:26
                I've seen many non-American / British films - French, German, Italian, Polish,
                Russian, Indian, Chinese to name some.

                Believe me, the majority of them are not for general consumption, even when
                translated correctly. They tend to be 'heavy', 'slapstick' or just plain boring.
                The reason that tinsel town, and to a much lesser extent British films go down
                well are that they are good, and most people like them.

                Even in the countries of the films I've mentioned above, the home made efforts
                are viewed by a much smaller audience than the TT/GB films.

                Its not just money and marketing power. The Anglo-American culture has gained
                popularity also because it is more to the majority of peoples tastes. The pity
                would be if any country let it completely substitute their culture, but I do not
                think that will happen for many reasons; the domination of the English language
                is not one of them.
                • varsovian Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 11:14
                  When it comes to 'culture products' we should treat our consumption in terms of
                  pick 'n mix - just like we do with everything in life ... friends, films,
                  alcohol, [religious beliefs].
                  Do you have fries every meal? Or ketchup with everything? Is vodka the only
                  alcohol you drink?
                  I've got to impart some sort of English identity to my kids - I pick and mix
                  unashamedly among various aspects of English life to the extent that they are
                  not really English at all. I value certain aspects of English culture, but I'm
                  only proud of it in the same way as I'm proud of my left foot - it just happens
                  to be part of me.
                  • russh Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 12:18
                    Yes and no; I 100% agree that culture is to 'picked & mixed', to ones own
                    tastes. That's the great thing about it, and the great thing about the modern
                    day is that we have much more opportunity to do so (more travel etc.)

                    Look at the UK now. I believe that, notwithstanding the fanatical fringes that
                    are gaining the upper-hand currently, there has been an in incredibly positive
                    cultural evolution caused by the recent (last 50 years) immigrant population.
                    I'm proud of it - more so than my left foot - because there are many countries
                    where it could not have happened.

                    We each have our own culture, as you intimate, that has partly been handed down,
                    and partly own grown through our own experiences. Our children will have the
                    same hopefully, providing we let them.

                    The problem comes when they are forced to have only the handed down part.
                    • varsovian Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 12:42
                      Immigration in the UK is, overall, a good thing.
                      Unfortunately, it has been badly handled, and too many low-class people have
                      been let in. When faced with mass immigration you can afford to be choosy and
                      give preference to the skilled. Britain failed to do this and now has to deal
                      with a social underclass who feel racially alienated as well - not a happy
                      mixture, especially when you add a number of radically-minded Muslims to the
                      equation.
                      To give you an example of the levels mainstream Muslims can stoop to: Batley
                      mosque (in Yorkshire, funded by Saudi Arabia) has a star of David on the ground
                      at its entrance so Muslims can show their disrespect for Jews by walking across
                      it. This is what several Muslim friends told me it meant for the locals.
                      I never came across this sort of thinking among my Muslim friends at my
                      strongly Christian private school.
                      Apples never fall far from the tree.
                      Immigration yes, and we need it. The NHS would have fallen apart without
                      Indian doctors. Thank God for Bengali food! Importing, for example, Kossovar
                      gangsters however is not a clever move. Neither is importing other
                      undesirables - who will have unteachable great-grandchildren with massive chips
                      on their shoulders.
                      • russh Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 13:12
                        Totally agreed. There was the historic problem though of the 'empire, and the
                        promise to let 'em all in, as it were.

                        I think that Australia got it right - selective immigration, as you are
                        itimating. Even more so now, although it could be said it's already to late.

                        There are so many stories similar to the Batley one - almost entirely Muslim
                        based. There lies the real problem, as we all know.
                        • ianek70 How Immigration Harmed Australia 09.12.05, 09:39
                          russh napisał:

                          > I think that Australia got it right - selective immigration, as you are
                          > itimating. Even more so now, although it could be said it's already to late.

                          Australia is an example of an over-liberal immigration policy.
                          They let in a bunch of white people with guns who massacred them and stole
                          their land.
                      • usenetposts Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 14:03
                        varsovian napisał:

                        > Immigration in the UK is, overall, a good thing.

                        Pity at times there wasn't more. We should have taken more Jews fleeing from
                        Nazi persecution, for example.

                        > Unfortunately, it has been badly handled, and too many low-class people have
                        > been let in.

                        That is exactly right. We have allowed in to Europe the people that sarkozy
                        rightly calls "scum". This might be okay if we got to export our own scum, but
                        we don't. We get brain drained, as America lets us in on condition that we have
                        educations or capital or some sporting achievement, or at least something to
                        offer.


                        > When faced with mass immigration you can afford to be choosy and
                        > give preference to the skilled. Britain failed to do this and now has to deal
                        > with a social underclass who feel racially alienated as well - not a happy
                        > mixture, especially when you add a number of radically-minded Muslims to the
                        > equation.

                        You're relling it like it is. What to do now about it, that's the question. My
                        own feeling is that it's too late for Britain, and I would prefer to be in a
                        place that still has a chance not to get that way, and warn them about the
                        consequences of a too indiscriminate immigration policy.


                        > To give you an example of the levels mainstream Muslims can stoop to: Batley
                        > mosque (in Yorkshire, funded by Saudi Arabia) has a star of David on the
                        ground
                        >
                        > at its entrance so Muslims can show their disrespect for Jews by walking
                        across
                        >
                        > it.

                        Oy! Gey in drerd, they should, meshuggeners.

                        > This is what several Muslim friends told me it meant for the locals.
                        > I never came across this sort of thinking among my Muslim friends at my
                        > strongly Christian private school.
                        > Apples never fall far from the tree.

                        They only have rotten apples.

                        They talk about Arabian culture and algebra and persona art and all the
                        beautiful things that they had, and a civilisation back in the day that was in
                        some ways the most advanced, and I say, indeed. Islam had not had time to
                        retard them by then. Now Islamis a lot older it has managed to take one of the
                        more enlightened cultures and hold it back where it was for a thousand years.

                        Of course middle eastern art is beautiful, of course their music sounds good,
                        their food tasty, their patterns rich, their legends inspiring. But thus has
                        nothing to do with Islam, which is a worthless false religion based on violence
                        and hate.

                        > Immigration yes, and we need it. The NHS would have fallen apart without
                        > Indian doctors. Thank God for Bengali food! Importing, for example, Kossovar
                        > gangsters however is not a clever move. Neither is importing other
                        > undesirables - who will have unteachable great-grandchildren with massive
                        chips
                        >
                        > on their shoulders.

                        We could have taken any amount of Orthodox Serbs and it would have been okay,
                        but they were being vilified and the Islamists painted as the veecteems until
                        we actually got in there and saw what was going on.

                        Then we just shut up about it.

                        We should not really be bothering the services of the Hague in following up
                        certain of the leaders of the Serbian militias. They did what they did only
                        because the same would have happened to them if they had lost. We have put
                        those people into a lose-lose situation.
                • waldek1610 Quote of a day;3 bilion people watch boring movies 08.12.05, 13:08
                  russh napisał:

                  > I've seen many non-American / British films - French, German, Italian, Polish,
                  > Russian, Indian, Chinese to name some.
                  >
                  > Believe me, the majority of them are not for general consumption, even when
                  > translated correctly. They tend to be 'heavy', 'slapstick' or just plain
                  boring.

                  If you included China and India plus few smaller countires, that's nearly half
                  of the world population....One question for you: Do you seriously think 3
                  bilion people like to watch...boring movies?


                  > The reason that tinsel town, and to a much lesser extent British films go down
                  > well are that they are good, and most people like them.

                  Most people??? You think you anglo-americans are the "most"....and you think
                  you're a center of this world......



                  > Even in the countries of the films I've mentioned above, the home made efforts
                  > are viewed by a much smaller audience than the TT/GB films.
                  >
                  > Its not just money and marketing power. The Anglo-American culture has gained
                  > popularity also because it is more to the majority of peoples tastes. The pity
                  > would be if any country let it completely substitute their culture, but I do
                  no
                  > t
                  > think that will happen for many reasons; the domination of the English
                  language
                  > is not one of them.
                  • russh Re: Quote of a day;3 bilion people watch boring m 08.12.05, 13:15
                    Oh Waldek, you're such a pompous prick.
                    • waldek1610 Re: Quote of a day;3 bilion people watch boring m 09.12.05, 07:11
                      Russh,
                      You said something really stupid, and believe me it's not my style to offend
                      others. You claimed that Chinesse, Korean, German, Italian French and Polish
                      movies are "boring" and not for "general consumption"....
                      This is only your opinion, why don't you simply say "I do not understand those
                      foreign movies"....which is actually truth.

                      I know you're smart enough to understand that neigher those countires would
                      make tenths and hundreds of films anually if audiences thought they were
                      boring.

                      For the same reason I say that Shakespeare plays are extremally boring for the
                      non-briton, for whom the english play of words is simply not very apealing....
                      But I do not say Shakespeare is bad, he's just made for anglo-american
                      audiences, just like French and Chinese films are targeting French and Chinese
                      tastes .....not the british ones....There's a difference!
                      • ianek70 Re: Quote of a day;3 bilion people watch boring m 09.12.05, 10:31
                        waldek1610 napisał:

                        > But I do not say Shakespeare is bad, he's just made for anglo-american
                        > audiences,

                        Shaky had one eye on the American market, did he?
                        That just proves he was ahead of his time.
                        • usenetposts Re: Quote of a day;3 bilion people watch boring m 09.12.05, 11:09
                          ianek70 napisał:

                          > waldek1610 napisał:
                          >
                          > > But I do not say Shakespeare is bad, he's just made for anglo-american
                          > > audiences,
                          >
                          > Shaky had one eye on the American market, did he?
                          > That just proves he was ahead of his time.

                          Heh heh heh.

                          We could have a little fun with "Americanising" famous Shakespeare quotes.

                          Let me kick off

                          "Ay hoss, ay hoss, mah state for ay hoss"

                          "Friends, mah fellow a murkains, lend me your ears at 0% fahnance, ah come tew
                          bury Clinton, not tew praise hiyum."

                          "Romeo, Romeo, whaddya wanna go and have a Hispanic name lahk that fower?"

                          "A rose bah eny other name would still be yeller in Texas"

                          etc etc etc...
                        • waldek1610 Re: Quote of a day;3 bilion people watch boring m 09.12.05, 12:56
                          ianek70 napisał:

                          > waldek1610 napisał:
                          >
                          > > But I do not say Shakespeare is bad, he's just made for anglo-american
                          > > audiences,
                          >
                          > Shaky had one eye on the American market, did he?
                          > That just proves he was ahead of his time.

                          No, we was not a prophet, what happened is that America has adapted british
                          culture, so there you go.....
              • waldek1610 Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 13:03
                kylie1 napisała:

                > It was kinda strange watching a Polish movie
                > when I rented out one a couple of years ago. I thought people were mad at
                each
                > other and kept yelling at each other all the time. They were constantly upset
                > and uptight.I hope not all the movies are like that.
                >
                > smile

                Do you have a clue what they were yelling at each other about? And why do you
                hope that not all polish movies are like that? Would you prefer if people were
                acting "cool" and doing their... self-centered thing?
                • varsovian Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 14:13
                  I think "pompous prick" is uncalled for. Some things are better left unsaid,
                  and I don't like seeing that sort of language. be more creative. Now, pompous
                  ass ...
                  • varsovian Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 14:20
                    Islam based on violence and hate, hmmm. I think I'll have to revisit my books
                    on Christian history. I've got a sneaking suspicion us Christians haven't been
                    lily white either. Chuck in a good dose of woman-hating as well, starting with
                    the black propaganda against Mary Magdalen ...
                    • usenetposts Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 15:40
                      varsovian napisał:

                      > Islam based on violence and hate, hmmm. I think I'll have to revisit my books
                      > on Christian history. I've got a sneaking suspicion us Christians haven't
                      been
                      > lily white either. Chuck in a good dose of woman-hating as well, starting with
                      >
                      > the black propaganda against Mary Magdalen ...


                      I get this argument a lot of times, and of course it is true that Christians,
                      being sinners, are also violent.

                      The slight difference, I know it is a teensy weensy nuance, that most people
                      these days seem unable to understand, is that when we succumb to violence it is
                      a failure, but for them, it is required.

                      They have holy war as one of the seven pillars on which their religion rests.

                      Christianity was non-violent for a good three centuries until it was
                      politicised under Constantine and then it was roped in to the usual violence of
                      any human political system.

                      Islam was from the start and right to today's date spread by the sword
                      primarily, even during Mohammed's lifetime and under his orders. The scimitar
                      remains an abiding symbol of their religion, although it is more sophisticated
                      weapons that they are really after now, of course.

                      The bad things we do when we fail in our religion, acting contrary to the
                      commands its Founder, are the things they do when they succeed, and do the
                      commmands of their Prophet.

                      With regards to women hating, I have yet to see woman from a Christian society
                      who seriously thinks she would be better treated in an Islamic society. If
                      anyone wants to try, I'm sure they will be happy to have you as long as you
                      submit to the rules. After all, they can have four each.
                  • russh Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 20:57
                    Very sorry old boy, but as far as I'm concerned it's exactly what was called for.
                • kylie1 Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 08.12.05, 21:05
                  > acting "cool" and doing their... self-centered thing?

                  You are putting words in my mouth, Waldek. I don't think you have to raise your
                  voice to get your message across. That's all I meant. And I don't have a clue
                  what self centered has to do with what I said before. Please, explain. smile



                  • waldek1610 Re: Isn't British and American culture overrated? 10.12.05, 06:53
                    kylie1 napisała:

                    > > acting "cool" and doing their... self-centered thing?
                    >
                    > You are putting words in my mouth, Waldek. I don't think you have to raise
                    your
                    >
                    > voice to get your message across. That's all I meant. And I don't have a clue
                    > what self centered has to do with what I said before. Please, explain. smile

                    Kylie,
                    You simply misinterpreted my words...Let me explain; You did said that you
                    watched one polish movie where people were yealing at each other..right?

                    And my reply was; Did you expect poles to "act cool" and do "their self-
                    centered thing"...as they do in british and especialy american movies??? I
                    didn't quote you...those were my words.

                    You have to understand Kylie that polish folks like movies that are full of
                    emotions,and expressing our feeligns. Brits are different, so they make
                    different movies. Just ask any pole, and they will tell you why poles think
                    british actors, such as Hugh Grant are labeled by poles as "powsciagliwy" (cold
                    and distant)....
                    • ianek70 An irritating little tit 10.12.05, 13:18
                      waldek1610 napisał:

                      > You have to understand Kylie that polish folks like movies that are full of
                      > emotions,and expressing our feeligns. Brits are different, so they make
                      > different movies. Just ask any pole, and they will tell you why poles think
                      > british actors, such as Hugh Grant are labeled by poles as "powsciagliwy"
                      (cold
                      >
                      > and distant)....

                      Once again Waldek the Great tries to speak on behalf of the entire Polish
                      nation, and once again he is full of shit.
                      Most of the Polish women I know like Hugh Grant. I have no idea why, as I
                      personally think he is an irritating little tit, and I consider "light romantic
                      comedies" to be the lowest possible form of entertainment. But these crappy,
                      corny films are just as popular in Poland as anywhere else.
                      If you spent more time in Poland, Waldo, you'd realise that your stereotypes
                      about the place are just as stupid as the stereotypes you claim other people
                      have about it.
                      • usenetposts Re: An irritating little tit 10.12.05, 23:56
                        ianek70 napisał:

                        > waldek1610 napisał:
                        >
                        > > You have to understand Kylie that polish folks like movies that are full
                        > of
                        > > emotions,and expressing our feeligns. Brits are different, so they make
                        > > different movies. Just ask any pole, and they will tell you why poles thi
                        > nk
                        > > british actors, such as Hugh Grant are labeled by poles as "powsciagliwy"
                        >
                        > (cold
                        > >
                        > > and distant)....
                        >
                        > Once again Waldek the Great tries to speak on behalf of the entire Polish
                        > nation, and once again he is full of shit.
                        > Most of the Polish women I know like Hugh Grant. I have no idea why, as I
                        > personally think he is an irritating little tit,

                        90%. He was quite funny in that Joey Blue Eyes film, or whatever it ws called.

                        But in the main he is a big loser. How can you be porking Liz Hurley and go for
                        a quickie with a filthy, ugly piece of trash like that?


                        > and I consider "light romantic
                        >
                        > comedies" to be the lowest possible form of entertainment. But these crappy,
                        > corny films are just as popular in Poland as anywhere else.
                        > If you spent more time in Poland, Waldo, you'd realise that your stereotypes
                        > about the place are just as stupid as the stereotypes you claim other people
                        > have about it.

                        yep.
                      • waldek1610 Re: An irritating little tit 11.12.05, 07:39
                        Ian,
                        I was born and grew up in Poland...I've spend my first 19 formative years
                        there..
                        Besides I first hear from you, that a person can have stereotypes........ about
                        his own country.
                        • ianek70 Re: An irritating little tit 11.12.05, 19:57
                          waldek1610 napisał:

                          > Ian,
                          > I was born and grew up in Poland...I've spend my first 19 formative years
                          > there..
                          > Besides I first hear from you, that a person can have stereotypes........
                          about
                          >
                          > his own country.

                          I was born and grew up in Scotland, I spent more than 19 years there and still
                          regularly go back. But I don't make ridiculous generalisations about the 5
                          million people who live there and I don't claim to speak on their behalf.
                          • usenetposts Re: An irritating little tit 12.12.05, 02:29
                            ianek70 napisał:

                            > waldek1610 napisał:
                            >
                            > > Ian,
                            > > I was born and grew up in Poland...I've spend my first 19 formative years
                            >
                            > > there..
                            > > Besides I first hear from you, that a person can have stereotypes........
                            >
                            > about
                            > >
                            > > his own country.
                            >
                            > I was born and grew up in Scotland, I spent more than 19 years there and
                            still
                            > regularly go back. But I don't make ridiculous generalisations about the 5
                            > million people who live there and I don't claim to speak on their behalf.

                            The lasses in Scotland do have bonnie legs though, don't they? At least allow
                            that one wee generalisation.
                            • ianek70 Re: An irritating little tit 12.12.05, 14:07
                              usenetposts napisał:

                              > The lasses in Scotland do have bonnie legs though, don't they? At least allow
                              > that one wee generalisation.

                              Well, they generally have two legs, but they're hardly kenspeckle for their
                              bonnieness.
                              If we're generalising about Scottish women, then they're similar to English
                              women, but have more freckles and more sensible names. They're never called
                              Matilda Onions, Nigella Buggering-Slyly or April Winterbottom.
                              And comparing them to Polish women, they're bigger, louder, more heavily
                              tattooed, drink more (although it's usually girly drinks like bacardi, or vodka
                              and diet Irn Bru) and do far more drugs.
                              • russh Re: An irritating little tit 12.12.05, 14:20
                                ianek70 napisał:

                                > And comparing them to Polish women, they're bigger, louder, more heavily
                                > tattooed, drink more (although it's usually girly drinks like bacardi, or
                                > vodka and diet Irn Bru) and do far more drugs.

                                Bet you haven't seen some of the Polish women that live near to me!
    • russh Apologies, and a more eloquent reply 09.12.05, 11:50
      Firstly, having thought a little, I'd like to take the opportunity of
      apologising to anyone who was either offended by or displeased with by my remark
      to Waldek (including Waldek). It came at the end of a bad few days.

      Secondly, I'd like to express my opinion of Waldek's ever-discriminating remarks
      against anything Anglo-Saxon in a rather more eloquent way:-

      I have been reading and to an extent contributing to this forum for a few
      months. There has been a general banter and expression of opinions that I have
      enjoyed - sometimes humorous, sometimes serious, but rarely offensive to anyone,
      or any peoples. There has, for me been one exception to this - Waldek. To explain;

      His first post, at the beginning of November, set the scene - 'his' Poland being
      maltreated by the 'West'. Followed by 'countries such as France, England, and
      Germany; envy Poland its new found political power'.

      Then the slamming of Maggie; 'but this woman is just obnoxious...which is why
      her attitude irritatets me so much. She is self centered, arrogant lady who
      likes to bully people and use her ability to speak english at English Only
      forum and as an admin, to push her Anglo-Saxon agenda among poles'.

      In reply to a light banter regarding what seems to be a Polish trait to number
      everything (I couldn't comment due to my ignorance of the language) - 'Pointing
      a finger at everything is considered rude in Poland. Numbering everything
      intoduces some order, now I realise Poland is not such a dissaray as most
      anglo-saxon think''

      In reply to another light hearted post re biggest Christmas trees - 'I'm not
      surised, in western Europe there's a long standing tradition that Poland is not
      to be mentioned in a positive context. Palace of Culture and Science in Warsaw
      has a highest mounted clock in the world, it is "leagable" from 5 miles, but
      Britsh prefer to boast with their Big Ben, which is in fact much smaller.'.

      In a reply to a post that said he did not understand our (meaning British,
      although maybe Ian takes slight offence at this representation) - (For expample
      why do brits sign allience treaty with Poland in 1920'ties and in 1939 when
      Poland actually needs help Brits say; "we are not willing to die for Gdansk
      (Danzig)'.

      In another post - ''No, I come here to let anglo-americans know what poles realy
      think about them.'

      And on, and on.

      The guy's got a real complex against anything Anglo-Saxon, and is turning (at
      least for me) many of the threads into a battle, and being offensive to me (as I
      believe that I am a part of what he is complaining about). There is nothing in
      the threads that I've seen that are 'anti-Polish' in any way; in fact most of
      them are complementary to the country. I would love to know exactly what his
      problem is, and its history. I'd love to speak to him personally, but obviously
      can't, to understand him and his fixation against anything Anglo-American.

      Sorry for the long post. I've now got it off my chest, and hopefully explained
      myself. I shall learn from Maggie, and not take the bait any further.





      • ianek70 Re: Apologies, and a more eloquent reply 09.12.05, 14:23
        If I remember rightly, you called him a "pompous prick".
        Personally, I stand by the word "gobshite", but then I'm a bit pedantic.
        His problem? He doesn't have one. And there's no point trying to analyse him,
        because he'd just get excited at the attention.
        He writes a lot of pretentious, meaningless, uninformed shite on the "English
        Only" forum, and I recently stumbled across the Polonia forum, where this is
        fairly typical of his contributions:
        forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2html?f=44&w=32970958&a=32973499
        "My idols are John Lennon, Jesus Christ, Bruce Lee, Władysław Sikorski and of
        course Frederick Chopin... Personally I don't play the piano, but I love Chopin
        because he wasn't a hypocrite."

        I don't need to tell you which country's marines this patriotic non-
        hypocritical Pole served in, but his love of pretentious quotes and cretinous
        stereotypes is summed up in the same post:

        "Honor Balzac himself said that Chopin is more Polish than Poland itself."

        On your "Moje Forum" there's a "nieprzyjaciele" function, where you simply type
        in the nick of anybody excessively stupid, irritating or offensive, and he
        ceases to exist when you're logged in.
        • chochise Re: Apologies, and a more eloquent reply 09.12.05, 14:31
          what about this one?
          forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=299&w=33244777
          (seems we are not the only ones tired of him).

          Since this is a private forum, maybe it is time usenetposts took action....
          • russh Re: Apologies, and a more eloquent reply 09.12.05, 14:39
            My problem is that I can't speak or read Polish (my better half is Polish, we
            met in Italy, and speak to each other in Italian. I speak to the kids in
            English, she speaks to them in Polish. Great for the kids, but not so good for
            family pow-wows).

            Stupid; don't I know!

            Any chance of a rough translation (of our friends post).

            Thanks
          • usenetposts Re: Apologies, and a more eloquent reply 10.12.05, 01:33
            chochise napisał:

            > what about this one?
            > forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=299&w=33244777
            > (seems we are not the only ones tired of him).
            >
            > Since this is a private forum, maybe it is time usenetposts took action....

            You're not the only person to have told me that. But having lived under
            Communism, I'm not big on censorship.

            He hasn't crossed any lines yet that I consider banworthy. He has been a pain
            in the neck, but he has not in my opinion crossed the line where his freedom of
            speech needs to be suspended.

            In fact, so far, no-one has done that. I only hope it stays that way.
            • russh Re: Apologies, and a more eloquent reply 10.12.05, 05:09
              Well done Dave.

              There are a lot of pain-in-the-necks around, but censorship is not the answer.
              Ian gave me that - if I can't stand it any more, then I can turn it off.
              • waldek1610 Re: Apologies, and a more eloquent reply 10.12.05, 07:43
                Russh,
                For you I'm in "pain in the neck"....

                What is ironic is that just as for police criminals are "pain of the
                neck"....just the same for bad guys police is just the same. For Tony Blair
                right now Poland and other new EU members are "pain in the neck"...because they
                dare to fight for their national interests....
            • waldek1610 Am I pain in the neck,or simply defending... 10.12.05, 07:38
              .. polish point of view?

              usenetposts napisał:

              > He hasn't crossed any lines yet that I consider banworthy. He has been a pain
              > in the neck,

              And you guys think that pole should think exactly the same way english person
              does? Don't be so naive. I simply say what is true but, you prefer not to hear.
              Of course anglo-saxons love their "priviliged" status so they hate if anybody
              is trying to challange it. Did I touch on the tabu subject again?

              > but he has not in my opinion crossed the line where his freedom of
              > speech needs to be suspended.


              If some whished that I called them names, they were out of luck, My only fault
              was that I dared to speak my heart and I didn't care to please Anglo-American
              folks on this forum...



        • russh Re: Apologies, and a more eloquent reply 09.12.05, 14:34
          As they say in my part of the world (or ex part of the world) - you're a gent.

          Thanks for the 'get-rid-of' function.
          • chochise Re: Apologies, and a more eloquent reply 09.12.05, 14:45
            b a s i c a l l y russh
            it's about oral sex...

            However, I am more than sure, waldek will be more than happy to translate it
            for you...
      • waldek1610 Apologies accepted,but there's more work for you! 10.12.05, 07:17
        russh napisał:

        > There has been a general banter and expression of opinions that I have
        > enjoyed - sometimes humorous, sometimes serious, but rarely offensive to
        anyone
        > ,
        > or any peoples. There has, for me been one exception to this - Waldek. To
        expla
        > in;

        This is your opinion, I think that offensive were many of Maggies post, you of
        course didn't sense because she didn't offend brits...To end discussion about
        her let me just add that she is a pole who appearantly spend few years in UK
        and know she is trying to talk for all poles while she is actually copying
        attitudes she picked up in Britain. What's even worse is that she claims that
        hers is polish point of view. But I don't buy it especially because she ends
        all her post with words "In Her Majesty service, Manners"..don't you think she
        is a brown- nose?


        > In reply to a light banter regarding what seems to be a Polish trait to number
        > everything (I couldn't comment due to my ignorance of the language) -
        'Pointing
        > a finger at everything is considered rude in Poland. Numbering everything
        > intoduces some order, now I realise Poland is not such a dissaray as most
        > anglo-saxon think''

        Quite frankly, I am entitled to say" When In Rome..." if you were in Britain
        complaining about poles who's numbering everything...that would be different
        case. So next time when you Poland don't criticize poles, ok. That's smart
        think do to, believe me.

        > In reply to another light hearted post re biggest Christmas trees - 'I'm not
        > surised, in western Europe there's a long standing tradition that Poland is
        not
        > to be mentioned in a positive context. Palace of Culture and Science in Warsaw
        > has a highest mounted clock in the world, it is "leagable" from 5 miles, but
        > Britsh prefer to boast with their Big Ben, which is in fact much smaller.'.

        I complain because I expect praise when its due, not only criticue. That's why
        I'm not particlularly found on british folks, because they do display this sort
        of selfish attitude.


        > The guy's got a real complex against anything Anglo-Saxon, and is turning (at
        > least for me) many of the threads into a battle, and being offensive to me
        (as
        > I
        > believe that I am a part of what he is complaining about). There is nothing in
        > the threads that I've seen that are 'anti-Polish' in any way;

        What is not said is also important............, if you ignore something that
        just beggs attention it is sure siggn of arrogance. I'm pissed because poles
        always were on british side, in WWII when polish pilots substancially helped
        Brits deafeat Germans in a Battle of England....and polish army is doing same
        thing now in Iraq...but you guys don't bother to appreciate it. Remember your
        allies are like friends that you just don't let down in a time of need. Just
        ask any pole you know why honor and integrity is so important to us.


        • ianek70 Re: Apologies accepted,but there's more work for 10.12.05, 13:40
          waldek1610 napisał:

          > This is your opinion, I think that offensive were many of Maggies post, you
          of
          > course didn't sense because she didn't offend brits...

          Maggie gives her personal opinions on a variety of topics, nobody has to agree
          with them.

          To end discussion about
          > her let me just add that she is a pole who appearantly spend few years in UK
          > and know she is trying to talk for all poles

          You are a Pole in America and you claim that your idiotic stereotypes and
          irrelevant historical complaints represent the views of all Poles, but anyone
          who lives in Poland knows this is nonsense.

          > Quite frankly, I am entitled to say" When In Rome..." if you were in Britain
          > complaining about poles who's numbering everything...that would be different
          > case. So next time when you Poland don't criticize poles, ok. That's smart
          > think do to, believe me.

          Do Poles in Britain number everything?
          Does "When in Rome..." not apply to America? Why do you moan constantly and
          pointlessly about American culture instead of leaving and coming back to Poland
          where according to you everything is so super and zajebiste that it can't be
          criticised?

          > What is not said is also important............,

          I'm not saying you're a pain in the arse......

          > I'm pissed because poles
          > always were on british side, in WWII when polish pilots substancially helped
          > Brits deafeat Germans in a Battle of England....and polish army is doing same
          > thing now in Iraq...but you guys don't bother to appreciate it.

          Most of us were brought up in democratic countries where people don't have to
          pretend that they love what their government does, where parliament's
          wazeliniarstwo towards Moscow or Washington isn't a matter of personal pride or
          shame. When you say "you guys", who do you mean specifically?
          Most Poles are pissed off that the Polish army is in Iraq, doing nothing except
          PR work for Jerzy Krzak.
          • waldek1610 Re: Apologies accepted,but there's more work for 11.12.05, 07:54
            It seems that I wasted my time trying to explain my position to you...

            For poles history IS important...or maybe you confused Poland with Polinesia...
            • ianek70 Re: Apologies accepted,but there's more work for 11.12.05, 20:09
              waldek1610 napisał:

              > For poles history IS important...or maybe you confused Poland with
              Polinesia...

              Next time you're in Poland, ask people whether the past is more important to
              them than the present.
              Ask them if 19% unemployment in 2005 is less important than the differences
              between administrative policy in the Austrian and Russian empires. Inquire of
              them as to which is the greater worry - hospitals and schools for their
              children, or for their great-grandparents.
              Obviously people will have different opinions, and a lot can be learnt from
              history, but only folk with no future live in the past.
              • waldek1610 Better give us "The Stanislaus collection" back... 12.12.05, 07:05
                ianek70 napisał:

                > waldek1610 napisał:
                >
                > > For poles history IS important...or maybe you confused Poland with
                > Polinesia...
                >
                > Next time you're in Poland, ask people whether the past is more important to
                > them than the present.
                > Ask them if 19% unemployment in 2005 is less important than the differences
                > between administrative policy in the Austrian and Russian empires.

                No, but how about 6 milion poles killed in WWII that's no big deal for you, or
                the about 80 percent national treasures... that generations worked for was gone
                as a result of partitions, occupations.... Poland that equaled richness of
                Spain was left with nothing...and now it looks like we started from skratch in
                1945 or really in 1989...that's no big deal for you?

                What would you say if you had do pick up pieces of Buckingham Palace, Tate
                Galery or if all what left after Big Ben was a big bang? Would you still say
                that it's no big deal?
                Next time don't use silly, examples of things that don't matter...


                > Obviously people will have different opinions, and a lot can be learnt from
                > history, but only folk with no future live in the past.

                Is tht so? Would UK be able to maintain international status both politically
                and economically if you past wars (as in Poland example)took away, all the
                wealth that dates back to King George and Victoria?
                • ianek70 Re: Better give us "The Stanislaus collection" ba 12.12.05, 09:31
                  waldek1610 napisał:

                  > No, but how about 6 milion poles killed in WWII that's no big deal for you,

                  I didn't say that. Obviously a lot of tragic things happened in Poland in the
                  past, terrible things happen everywhere.

                  > What would you say if you had do pick up pieces of Buckingham Palace, Tate
                  > Galery or if all what left after Big Ben was a big bang?

                  As I don't live in London that's rather unlikely. But I wouldn't moan about it
                  for the rest of my life, and I wouldn't want my children and grandchildren to
                  moan about for their whole lives. I'd rather they took an interest in the
                  present and the future.

                  > Next time don't use silly, examples of things that don't matter...

                  ??

                  > > Obviously people will have different opinions, and a lot can be learnt fr
                  > om
                  > > history, but only folk with no future live in the past.
                  >
                  > Is tht so? Would UK be able to maintain international status both politically
                  > and economically if you past wars (as in Poland example)took away, all the
                  > wealth that dates back to King George and Victoria?

                  No idea.
                  But one reason why there's no point moaning constantly about history is that
                  you can't change it.
                  • waldek1610 Re: Better give us "The Stanislaus collection" ba 12.12.05, 10:50
                    ianek70 napisał:

                    > waldek1610 napisał:
                    >
                    > > No, but how about 6 milion poles killed in WWII that's no big deal for yo
                    > u,
                    >
                    > I didn't say that. Obviously a lot of tragic things happened in Poland in the
                    > past, terrible things happen everywhere.

                    When Mr. Churchill called Gen. Sikorski's gov. in exile (based in London)to ask
                    for polish pilots to help defend England from German aerial invasion.... polish
                    leader didn't tell his british friend; "Terrible things happen
                    everywhere"...but in fact did help him substantialy.

                    > > What would you say if you had do pick up pieces of Buckingham Palace, Tat
                    > e
                    > > Galery or if all what left after Big Ben was a big bang?
                    >
                    > As I don't live in London that's rather unlikely. But I wouldn't moan about
                    it
                    > for the rest of my life, and I wouldn't want my children and grandchildren to
                    > moan about for their whole lives. I'd rather they took an interest in the
                    > present and the future.
                    >
                    > > Next time don't use silly, examples of things that don't matter...
                    >
                    > ??
                    Your silly example of "russian and austrian imperial administrative
                    accounting...." whatever


                    > > > Obviously people will have different opinions, and a lot can be lea
                    > rnt fr
                    > > om
                    > > > history, but only folk with no future live in the past.
                    > >
                    > > Is tht so? Would UK be able to maintain international status both politic
                    > ally
                    > > and economically if you past wars (as in Poland example)took away, all th
                    > e
                    > > wealth that dates back to King George and Victoria?
                    >
                    > No idea.
                    > But one reason why there's no point moaning constantly about history is that
                    > you can't change it.

                    Isn't Great Britain doenig enything it can to maintain the impression it is
                    still in fact "An Empire"? Otherwise it would never send troops to Iraq, or
                    organize the British Commonwealth to keep up the pretence of a greatness.
                  • russh And I thought I was a glutton for punishment. 12.12.05, 11:23
                    Hi Ian,

                    See you've taken up the mantle.

                    I'm now sure, seeing the banter between you two, that it's a losing battle - you
                    can take a horse to water, but you can make it drink!

                    Reason & logic cannot win against someone who cannot understand them, or has a
                    completely diffrent sense of what they are.
                    • ianek70 Re: And I thought I was a glutton for punishment. 12.12.05, 12:07
                      russh napisał:

                      > See you've taken up the mantle.

                      Well, I do feel a bit guilty about the Stanislaus collection, which I have
                      hidden in my kitchen cupboard and have been trying to sell.
                      And my personal contribution to the expansion of the Empire was greater than
                      you might think, as I am in fact 185 years old, and if more than a few percent
                      of British citizens had been allowed to vote in the 19th century I would have
                      helped legitimize the establishment by voting against it and thus increasing
                      the voter turnout.
                      But I can't be bothered explaining things any more, as Waldo is on my list
                      of "debile do olewania" so I have to log off then on again whenever I want to
                      explain to him that he's writing the same pointless shite again and again.
                      • russh Re: And I thought I was a glutton for punishment. 12.12.05, 12:54
                        The clubs going to get bigger and bigger (the 'turn-off-Waldek-club).

                        By the way, how much do you want for your Stanislaus collection?

                        • waldek1610 Is this customer service?My order was not deliver 12.12.05, 13:12
                          russh napisał:


                          > By the way, how much do you want for your Stanislaus collection?

                          How about... nothing? It is all paid for but waits to be delivered ...since
                          1790'ies...
                          • ianek70 Re: Is this customer service?My order was not del 12.12.05, 13:29
                            waldek1610 napisał:

                            > russh napisał:
                            >
                            >
                            > > By the way, how much do you want for your Stanislaus collection?
                            >
                            > How about... nothing? It is all paid for but waits to be delivered ...since
                            > 1790'ies...

                            Why do you put three little dots in the middle of every sentence?
                            Is it meant to be dramatic?
                            • waldek1610 Re: Is this customer service?My order was not del 13.12.05, 23:50
                              ianek70 napisał:

                              > waldek1610 napisał:
                              >
                              > > russh napisał:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > By the way, how much do you want for your Stanislaus collection?
                              > >
                              > > How about... nothing? It is all paid for but waits to be delivered ...sin
                              > ce
                              > > 1790'ies...
                              >
                              > Why do you put three little dots in the middle of every sentence?
                              > Is it meant to be dramatic?

                              Ian,
                              Being form the land of Shakespeare you should know better, after all english
                              are so found on a "word play" and drama....
                              • ianek70 Re: Is this customer service?My order was not del 14.12.05, 10:48
                                waldek1610 napisał:

                                > ianek70 napisał:
                                > > Why do you put three little dots in the middle of every sentence?
                                > > Is it meant to be dramatic?
                                >
                                > Ian,
                                > Being form the land of Shakespeare you should know better, after all english
                                > are so found on a "word play" and drama....

                                Well, I'm not from the land of Shakespeare, and therefore I don't know why you
                                put three dots in the middle of every sentence.
                                Apart from that one, which has four dots at the end. Is that how they write in
                                America?
                                • waldek1610 Re: Is this customer service?My order was not del 15.12.05, 10:53
                                  ianek70 napisał:

                                  > Well, I'm not from the land of Shakespeare, and therefore I don't know why
                                  you
                                  > put three dots in the middle of every sentence.

                                  Where are you from then?

                                  > Apart from that one, which has four dots at the end. Is that how they write
                                  > in America?

                                  I'm an aritst so I get creative, come on Ianek don't get so low as to pick on
                                  my english. I guess it's way better than your polish....
                                  • ianek70 Re: Is this customer service?My order was not del 15.12.05, 19:29
                                    waldek1610 napisał:

                                    > I'm an aritst so I get creative,

                                    Pointillisme, I think that's called, creating beautiful art from little dots.

                                    > come on Ianek don't get so low as to pick on
                                    > my english. I guess it's way better than your polish....

                                    Obviously, since you're so great, but I wasn't criticising your English, just
                                    aksing why you put those melodramatic dots everywhere.
                                    But now I know smile
                    • waldek1610 How do you convince Brit ...he's wrong? 12.12.05, 12:20
                      ...you got to be even ruder and arrogant than him!? smile


                      russh napisał:

                      > it's a losing battle - yo
                      > u
                      > can take a horse to water, but you can make it drink!
                      >
                      > Reason & logic cannot win against someone who cannot understand them, or has a
                      > completely diffrent sense of what they are.

                      That's exactly how I feel. But how do you explain Brit that he doesn't have the
                      monopoly for being right...?
                      • ianek70 Re: How do you convince Brit ...he's wrong? 12.12.05, 13:25
                        How do you convince anyone he's wrong?
                        Logic? Knowledge? Common sense?
                        Or maybe just by quoting irrelevant facts from history books?

                        "Polskie koleje są niedofinansowane."
                        "Nieprawda! 6 milionów Polaków zginęło podczas wojny!"

                        "To niemożliwe, żeby polska biurokracja marnowała pieniądze zachodnich
                        podatników! Przecież 6 milionów Polaków zginęło podczas wojny!"

                        "6 milionów Polaków zginęło podczas wojny, więc Kaczyński ma 2 metry."

                        "Roman Giertych nie jest dupkiem, bo 6 milionów jego rodaków zginęło podczas
                        wojny."

                        "Polska jest całkowicie pokryta wysokimi górami, widzisz? Nie? Czy nie masz
                        szacunku dla tych 6 milionów poległych?"
                        • russh How do you convince anyone he's wrong? 12.12.05, 13:39
                          Na, won't work.

                          I reckon he's tireless. No matter what you do, he'll come bouncing back for
                          another round.
                        • waldek1610 who are you quoteing??? 13.12.05, 23:59
                          ianek70 napisał:

                          > How do you convince anyone he's wrong?
                          > Logic? Knowledge? Common sense?
                          > Or maybe just by quoting irrelevant facts from history books?
                          >
                          > "Polskie koleje są niedofinansowane."
                          > "Nieprawda! 6 milionów Polaków zginęło podczas wojny!"

                          Ok, but who asked about PKP? It was your statement "the history is not
                          improtant"...next time don't trim and make up imaginary statements to suite
                          your cause...



                          > "To niemożliwe, żeby polska biurokracja marnowała pieniądze zachodnich
                          > podatników! Przecież 6 milionów Polaków zginęło podczas wojny!"

                          Wasting EU money even if some of them und up missused, does not equals that the
                          UK to get rabates....even Brits are not special.....

                          > "6 milionów Polaków zginęło podczas wojny, więc Kaczyński ma 2 metry."



                          > "Roman Giertych nie jest dupkiem, bo 6 milionów jego rodaków zginęło podczas
                          > wojny."
                          >
                          > "Polska jest całkowicie pokryta wysokimi górami, widzisz? Nie? Czy nie masz
                          > szacunku dla tych 6 milionów poległych?"
                        • waldek1610 Stop bulling, start cooperating with equals 14.12.05, 00:09
                          ianek70 napisał:

                          > "6 milionów Polaków zginęło podczas wojny, więc Kaczyński ma 2 metry."

                          You silly, the height of the president has nothing to do with war casualties..


                          > "Roman Giertych nie jest dupkiem, bo 6 milionów jego rodaków zginęło podczas
                          > wojny."
                          >
                          > "Polska jest całkowicie pokryta wysokimi górami, widzisz? Nie? Czy nie masz
                          > szacunku dla tych 6 milionów poległych?"


                          Why can't you just answer real question that I asked, insteading making up your
                          own imaginary ones. I know you wish that new EU countries were dummies so you
                          could manipulate them.

                          But it happenens that "New Europeans" ask valid questions, ignoring british
                          bulliing and stand up for themselves....unfortunatelly this is too much that
                          British can take, so they get mad..so you get mad also.

                          • ianek70 Re: Stop bulling, start cooperating with equals 14.12.05, 11:00
                            waldek1610 napisał:

                            > You silly, the height of the president has nothing to do with war casualties..

                            That's the point. Stop hiding behind history.
                            A logical analysis of what Blair or Crawford say would make more sense than a
                            list of things that happened before either of them were born.
                            "It was the same in 1939," cry the Polish papers.

                            > Why can't you just answer real question that I asked,

                            I did. Your question was "How do convince a Brit that he's wrong?" The
                            answer "The same way you convince anyone else."
                            By logic, common sense, facts and clever arguments, instead of stupid
                            stereotypes and boring generalisations.
                            For example:

                            > I know you wish that new EU countries were dummies so you
                            > could manipulate them.

                            How could I manipulate the new EU countries?

                            > But it happenens that "New Europeans" ask valid questions, ignoring british
                            > bulliing and stand up for themselves....

                            Yes.
                            Some "New Europeans" ask valid questions.
                            Others just ask stupid questions and ignore the answers.
                            • waldek1610 Tonny's budget proposal-crapping on welcome mat 15.12.05, 11:13
                              ianek70 napisał:

                              > Some "New Europeans" ask valid questions.
                              > Others just ask stupid questions and ignore the answers.

                              Is asking for 60 bilion euro instead of 54... stupid??? How could one not
                              ignore Tony's proposals that Brits can spend 6 bilions (they want to take from
                              Poland) better, by investing in UK ...and giving Poland 100 milions back, so
                              poles can take english classes...Can Brits get any more arrogant than that?

                              In Poland where was a riddle " Jaki jest Szczyt chamstwa?" (What is most
                              arrogant and rude thing that can be done to others?)
                              ...To poop on the top of someones "welcome mat" then knocking on the door and
                              asking for toilet paper.....

                              Well, I think crapping was dethroned now by Tonny's budget proposal...



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