Hmmm...

11.12.05, 19:56

I guess by now everybody knows about it.
forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=50&w=33325348&a=33326422
Any comments?

I have to add that one of my favourite part is:
"Aside: PM Marcinkiewicz: you asked me recently to help with ELT in
Polish schools - spend 100 million of the Fund on this, so that every kid
learns English, plus save money by shutting down French and German language
classes!"

Ervin

Thebartiski.blogspot.com
    • chochise ouch!!!! 11.12.05, 21:37
      The articles in full:

      www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1920117,00.html
      Crikey! FO speaks truth about Europe
      A SENIOR British ambassador has lambasted our European Union partners in
      undiplomatic language, blaming them for farm subsidies that “bloat” rich French
      landowners, “pump up food prices” and create poverty in Africa.
      In an e-mail to colleagues seen by The Sunday Times, Charles Crawford, the
      ambassador to Poland, mocks “mon ami” Jacques Chirac and the Poles for
      selfishly blocking Tony Blair’s attempts to secure a face-saving deal on the
      European budget.

      ----
      www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1920075,00.html
      Our man in Warsaw



      CHARLES CRAWFORD, Britain’s ambassador to Poland, is not your regular, stiff-
      upper-lip career diplomat. The football-loving official has a down-to-earth
      style and an “off-beat sense of humour”, according to colleagues.



      The ambassador doesn’t serve Ferrero Rocher chocolates, but he knows how to
      treat his guests. Earlier this year, he had 240 pots of Rodda’s Cornish clotted
      cream flown out to serve at a tea party in Warsaw to celebrate the beginning of
      the British presidency of the EU.

      ----
      www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1917543,00.html
      British ambassador in Warsaw's leaked email in full



      From: Charles.Crawford
      Sent: 08 December 2005 05:36
      To: KDarroch; Nicola.Brewer
      Subject: LOOSEN THOSE EU BUDGET TALKS - LET'S END THE MISERY

      ----

      Talk about putting your foot in it!!!!! smile
      Let's see how he gets out of this one, eh?smile
      • usenetposts Re: ouch!!!! 12.12.05, 02:00
        I fully support His Excellency Charles Crawford in this.

        The facts are facts, and this Ambassador has done more than any other I can
        remember. My support is fully with Charles and Helen at this time, and I propse
        to tell him exactly that to his face on Wednesday.
        • chochise Re: ouch!!!! 12.12.05, 10:34
          show offsmile))
          • usenetposts Re: ouch!!!! 12.12.05, 15:07
            chochise napisał:

            > show offsmile))

            I was just quick off the mark when the Chamber of Commerce gave the "first come
            first served" invites out.
    • russh Re: Hmmm... 11.12.05, 23:03
      Only popped on for a moment to see what is happening. No time for a full post,
      but fantastic! I hope it creates the positive stir it deserves.

      I'll give the rest of my thoughts later.
    • russh Re: Hmmm... 12.12.05, 11:15
      Now I've got some time.

      1. Is HMA a friend of Tony?
      2. Was it meant to be leaked?

      There were so many relevant points in there, that it almost seems that it was
      meant to put the 'cat-amongst-the-pigeons'. The humour just adds to it!

      a. Hypocrisy and absurdity of the process
      b. EU failure to account correctly for the billions it spends
      c. Lack of compromise (although here, can someone remind me if possible why we
      did not veto the 2003 CAP reforms - assuming they were veto-able).
      d. The real problem of the CAP - spending vast sums of money (inefficiently) on
      maintaining the (modernisable) agricultural status quo (whilst at the same time
      hindering the development of those countries in need), instead of spending the
      same money on real wealth creation.
      e. Lack of appreciation of their real friends in the EU by the accession countries.
      f. Reminder as to who would gain if an agreement is not made.
      g. A carrot (£5 billion), and a statement as to how EU money should be spent.

      Plus an enormous reminder of the inefficiency, top-heavy bureaucracy and
      corruption that is a trade mark of both the EU Commission and the accession
      countries.

      I'd love to have seen the faces of the leaders of other 24 EU countries, and of
      course Barroso and his team's.

      Nice one Mr Crawford. Home truths should hurt, and I hope this one does.

      • bartis_ervin Re: Hmmm... 12.12.05, 11:48

        Obviously the Amabassador spoke some truth (well, most of what he said, he was
        rightsmile), but I am sure that there are other channels/ways to make his message
        heard. After all, he is a diplomat or commedy writer? What he wrote I could
        really appreciate from a commediant, but not from a diplomat.

        Besides this:

        1. It won't really help Tony.

        2. Did anyone thank the Polish workers that there are over there, doing their
        job and paying tax?? (If not Britain then more Polish would be in Ireland and
        Sweden.) Maybe His Excellency could put this on his agenda.

        Ervin

        Thebartiski.blogspot.com
        • usenetposts Re: Hmmm... 12.12.05, 15:13
          bartis_ervin napisał:

          >
          > Obviously the Amabassador spoke some truth (well, most of what he said, he was
          > rightsmile), but I am sure that there are other channels/ways to make his message
          > heard. After all, he is a diplomat or commedy writer? What he wrote I could
          > really appreciate from a commediant, but not from a diplomat.

          Many a true word is spoken in gest, and sometimes that's the most diplomatic
          way of saying it.

          >
          > Besides this:
          >
          > 1. It won't really help Tony.
          >

          It might. It gets the debate out into the open.

          > 2. Did anyone thank the Polish workers that there are over there, doing their
          > job and paying tax?? (If not Britain then more Polish would be in Ireland and
          > Sweden.) Maybe His Excellency could put this on his agenda.

          In England, we always thank our people. Nevertheless, nobody has a right to
          work. Entrepreneurship, which is what creates work places for those who don't
          have it to produce their own, is the most undervalued resource.

          People always blame the employer if something goes wrong, but take him for
          granted if things go right.
    • ianek70 Re: Hmmm... 12.12.05, 13:07
      Most of what he writes makes sense.
      I like the typically hypocritical reaction of the Wyborcza - obsessively pro-
      market, except when foreign tax-payers are asked to give money to the Polish
      state.
      They've got a little opinion poll, and you can vote on whether you think the
      Polish foreign office should:
      A) treat it as a bad joke
      B) react decisively to this unacceptable display of disrespect (how? sanctions?)

      Obviously there is no option C, that you agree, even partly.

      bartis_ervin napisał:

      >
      > I guess by now everybody knows about it.
      > forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=50&w=33325348&a=33326422
      > Any comments?
      >
      > I have to add that one of my favourite part is:
      > "Aside: PM Marcinkiewicz: you asked me recently to help with ELT in
      > Polish schools - spend 100 million of the Fund on this, so that every kid
      > learns English, plus save money by shutting down French and German language
      > classes!"
      >
      > Ervin
      >
      > Thebartiski.blogspot.com
      • bartis_ervin Re: Hmmm... 12.12.05, 16:27
        "B) react decisively to this unacceptable display of disrespect (how? sanctions?)"

        For e.g. Marcinkiewicz or the Foreign Minister could call in the British
        Ambassador and ask for explanations. Actually this would be the best: not to
        assume or guess anything, just ask him. After the meeting hold a press
        conference. It's very simple.

        Ervin

        Thebartiski.blospot.com
        • ianek70 Re: Hmmm... 12.12.05, 16:56
          bartis_ervin napisał:

          > "B) react decisively to this unacceptable display of disrespect (how?
          sanctions
          > ?)"
          >
          > For e.g. Marcinkiewicz or the Foreign Minister could call in the British
          > Ambassador and ask for explanations. Actually this would be the best: not to
          > assume or guess anything, just ask him. After the meeting hold a press
          > conference. It's very simple.

          You're right, but what happens if they decide the explanation isn't good enough?
          • bartis_ervin Re: Hmmm... 12.12.05, 22:43

            There are other more or less effective diplomatic ways to do things, but I'm
            sure that the explanation would be "good enough".

            Even if everybody knows this, if I would be in that position, I would call in
            the Ambassador, because this is the way and these are the rules of this dance.

            No "a propos", but I just remembered that you live in Scotland (I hope I am
            right) and my wife was recently in Glasgow for some days and she was taken to
            Scottish dances. She was impressed by the way how old and young were dancing
            together and thus "working" on keeping their culture. I know for sure that you
            couldn't see something like this is Hungary or Transylvania. I guess that goes
            for Poland too. So, hats of for Scottish!

            Ervin

            Thebartiski.blogspot.com
            • ianek70 Re: Hmmm... 18.12.05, 18:22
              bartis_ervin napisał:


              > No "a propos", but I just remembered that you live in Scotland (I hope I am
              > right) and my wife was recently in Glasgow for some days and she was taken to
              > Scottish dances. She was impressed by the way how old and young were dancing
              > together and thus "working" on keeping their culture. I know for sure that you
              > couldn't see something like this is Hungary or Transylvania. I guess that goes
              > for Poland too. So, hats of for Scottish!

              I think Scots are as selective about tradition as anyone else - they continue
              the fun things (pretending it's about culture), and the things that tourists
              like, but they don't bother too much about boring traditions. And nobody is
              really trying to keep the traditional food alive - it's not tasty enough.
              Apart from clootie dumpling, and thick winter soups.
              I'm surprised to hear they don't work on their culture in Transylvania, usually
              where different nationalities live side by side they emphasise their different
              cultures.
      • firemouse Re: Hmmm... 13.12.05, 11:14
        The story reminds me of "Yes Prime Minister!" TV serie and later computer game.
        The same sense of humor, so there are constant values in HM Government policy smile

        Anyway, apart from your comments on GW position (which I fully support), I think
        that UK Government should reconsider his rebate before cutting help for new
        countries. So what about: Yes, we agree to cut down the structure funds, but
        forget your rebates and pay full fee?

        FM
        • ianek70 Re: Hmmm... 13.12.05, 14:30
          firemouse napisał:

          > The story reminds me of "Yes Prime Minister!" TV serie and later computer
          game.

          They made a computer game of Yes Prime Minister? Is it good?

          > Anyway, apart from your comments on GW position (which I fully support), I
          thin
          > k
          > that UK Government should reconsider his rebate before cutting help for new
          > countries. So what about: Yes, we agree to cut down the structure funds, but
          > forget your rebates and pay full fee?

          Of course they should give up the rebate, that annoying Thatcher woman demanded
          it, they gave her it to make her shut up, and now without her Britain is
          obviously much better off (even the new Tory leader has turned his back on
          Thatcherism). Blair knows that, but wants something in return.
          The question is, what? Everyone agrees the money could be spent more
          efficiently, but nobody can agree how much more efficiently it could be spent,
          or how to achieve this. There are 286 types of cheese in France, and without
          subsidies many of them could disappear.
          As far as Poland is concerned, if they get billions of euros from British,
          French and Danish bus drivers', nurses' and builders' taxes, then immediately
          cut taxes for Polish millionaires, I personally will go to Warsaw with a
          baseball bat and trash the Sejm.
          • firemouse Re: Hmmm... 13.12.05, 15:02
            ianek70 napisał:

            > firemouse napisał:
            >
            > > The story reminds me of "Yes Prime Minister!" TV serie and later computer
            >
            > game.
            >
            > They made a computer game of Yes Prime Minister? Is it good?

            Old times, adventure type game in mid 80s, but fun level and absurd humor almost
            comparable with TV, so not so bad. You can find it somewhere on free games
            portals, this is of course DOS-type made for PC and is not well converted -
            hangs sometimes. The original made for Amiga was much better.

            > > Anyway, apart from your comments on GW position (which I fully support),
            > I
            > thin
            > > k
            > > that UK Government should reconsider his rebate before cutting help for n
            > ew
            > > countries. So what about: Yes, we agree to cut down the structure funds,
            > but
            > > forget your rebates and pay full fee?
            >
            > Of course they should give up the rebate, that annoying Thatcher woman demanded
            >
            > it, they gave her it to make her shut up, and now without her Britain is
            > obviously much better off (even the new Tory leader has turned his back on
            > Thatcherism). Blair knows that, but wants something in return.
            > The question is, what? Everyone agrees the money could be spent more
            > efficiently, but nobody can agree how much more efficiently it could be spent,
            > or how to achieve this. There are 286 types of cheese in France, and without
            > subsidies many of them could disappear.
            > As far as Poland is concerned, if they get billions of euros from British,
            > French and Danish bus drivers', nurses' and builders' taxes, then immediately
            > cut taxes for Polish millionaires, I personally will go to Warsaw with a
            > baseball bat and trash the Sejm.

            I think you can't get that much money from Polish milionaires as from British,
            French and Danish bus drivers and nurses. First, there are not many
            "milionaires" here and secondly, a Danish bus driver earns very respectable
            money. I'd say first let Poland get rich then milk it. Polish GNP is the same as
            Dutch one, so still a long road ahead. Another thing is that Poland does not use
            well the funds, which are available, and why not employ some guys who took these
            funds for Ireland and Spain, they have know how and even if they cost milions we
            can get much more in return.

            FM
          • russh Re: Hmmm... 13.12.05, 22:11
            ianek70 napisał:

            > Of course they should give up the rebate, that annoying Thatcher woman
            demanded
            >
            > it, they gave her it to make her shut up, and now without her Britain is
            > obviously much better off (even the new Tory leader has turned his back on
            > Thatcherism). Blair knows that, but wants something in return.
            > The question is, what? Everyone agrees the money could be spent more
            > efficiently, but nobody can agree how much more efficiently it could be spent,
            > or how to achieve this. There are 286 types of cheese in France, and without
            > subsidies many of them could disappear.
            > As far as Poland is concerned, if they get billions of euros from British,
            > French and Danish bus drivers', nurses' and builders' taxes, then immediately
            > cut taxes for Polish millionaires, I personally will go to Warsaw with a
            > baseball bat and trash the Sejm.

            What a load of Gobshite, to coin a phrase.

            1. The rebate was totally justified in its original form, and its retention is
            justified currently unless there is a compromise from the French on the CAP.
            2. Thatcher was the best prime minister of the last Century, and expert opinion
            is just about agreed on this.
            3. Everybody knows what is in general the most efficient way of spending the EU
            money. It's just that they haven't the political balls to go for it, especially
            the French.
            4. The list of trades and professions that contribute taxes is a little longer
            than the traditional lefty's one listed by you (surprised that you didn't add
            coal miners), and anyway, in my experience the builders (and the building trade)
            in general work a very high percentage in 'black'.
            • ianek70 Re: Hmmm... 14.12.05, 10:40
              russh napisał:

              > What a load of Gobshite, to coin a phrase.
              >
              > 1. The rebate was totally justified in its original form, and its retention is
              > justified currently unless there is a compromise from the French on the CAP.

              Exactly, Britain can afford to give it up now, but Blair is justified in
              keeping it if others don't give up their privileges.

              > 2. Thatcher was the best prime minister of the last Century, and expert
              opinion
              > is just about agreed on this.

              Controversial statement.

              > 3. Everybody knows what is in general the most efficient way of spending the
              EU
              > money. It's just that they haven't the political balls to go for it,
              especially
              > the French.

              Think of the cheese.
              Education and public transport can't exist properly without subsidies, the same
              is true of some aspects of culture (remember Thatcher's huge subsidies for
              opera in the 80s when there was no cash for schools?). It's a question of
              priorities, where are people prepared to make the necessary cuts?

              > 4. The list of trades and professions that contribute taxes is a little longer
              > than the traditional lefty's one listed by you (surprised that you didn't add
              > coal miners), and anyway, in my experience the builders (and the building
              trade
              > )
              > in general work a very high percentage in 'black'.

              Obviously everyone pays taxes (except builders, that was a bad example), but
              governments in Eastern Europe are promising tax cuts for the wealthiest. These
              are most likely hollow promises, but if they then plug the holes in their
              budgets with money taken from bank clerks, policemen and vicars who don't know
              where Poland is and who'd rather pay for better schools and hospitals in their
              own countries, then I'll personally poke them in the eye.
              The politicians, of course, not the vicars.

              PS A gobshite is a person, and is therefore countable.
              • russh Re: Hmmm... 14.12.05, 13:45
                ianek70 napisał:

                > russh napisał:
                >
                > > What a load of Gobshite, to coin a phrase.
                > >
                > > 1. The rebate was totally justified in its original form, and its retenti
                > on is
                > > justified currently unless there is a compromise from the French on the C
                > AP.
                >
                > Exactly, Britain can afford to give it up now, but Blair is justified in
                > keeping it if others don't give up their privileges.

                We're agreed!
                >
                > > 2. Thatcher was the best prime minister of the last Century, and expert
                > opinion
                > > is just about agreed on this.
                >
                > Controversial statement.

                Accepted that it's controversial for many. You either love her or hate her, and
                the debate surrounding her time will go on for many years. I'm quite happy to
                discuss it in detail over a pint or five some time - it's always nice to meet
                with an opinionated, obviously educated but with his feet-on-the-ground person.
                >
                > > 3. Everybody knows what is in general the most efficient way of spending
                > the
                > EU
                > > money. It's just that they haven't the political balls to go for it,
                > especially
                > > the French.
                >
                > Think of the cheese.
                > Education and public transport can't exist properly without subsidies, the same
                >
                > is true of some aspects of culture (remember Thatcher's huge subsidies for
                > opera in the 80s when there was no cash for schools?). It's a question of
                > priorities, where are people prepared to make the necessary cuts?

                I was speaking to a client this morning about something similar. Of course there
                are priorities, and these will change from nation to nation. I just believe at
                the moment, when there are grave problems of unemployment in Europe, a greater
                slice of the cake (putting it in Thatcherite terms) should be allocated to
                wealth creation, and not wealth sustainment.

                Another topic I'd like to discuss with you over a pint or six (this one's heavy,
                so maybe seven) would be the future - is the current cultural and societal
                regression sustainable, or will we be facing a real mass revolution in the
                medium to long term. Can the developed world produce enough demand to employ
                another 500 million Chinese, and 300 million Indians without a developed Africa,
                and to a lesser extent, South America?
                >
                > > 4. The list of trades and professions that contribute taxes is a little l
                > onger
                > > than the traditional lefty's one listed by you (surprised that you didn't
                > add
                > > coal miners), and anyway, in my experience the builders (and the building
                >
                > trade
                > > )
                > > in general work a very high percentage in 'black'.
                >
                > Obviously everyone pays taxes (except builders, that was a bad example), but
                > governments in Eastern Europe are promising tax cuts for the wealthiest. These
                > are most likely hollow promises, but if they then plug the holes in their
                > budgets with money taken from bank clerks, policemen and vicars who don't know
                > where Poland is and who'd rather pay for better schools and hospitals in their
                > own countries, then I'll personally poke them in the eye.
                > The politicians, of course, not the vicars.

                Agreed. They should never 'plug the holes' as you've put it. There is though a
                very strong theory that the over taxation of the rich contributes negatively to
                wealth creation. I am a great believer in reasonable wealth re-disribution via
                the tax system, but not by over-taxing those that are in real terms the only
                real wealth creators. The proof of this working can be seen in the increase in
                the number of tax payers, and subsequently tax revenues after Thatcher lowered
                the tax thresholds for the higher earners.
                >
                > PS A gobshite is a person, and is therefore countable.

                I learn something new everyday. I seriously thought you could say 'that was a
                load of xxxxx'

                Russ
    • chochise is this funny? 14.12.05, 15:27
      A Polish apology
      By Roger Blitz
      Published: December 14 2005 02:00 | Last updated: December 14 2005 02:00

      A satirical comment by Roger Blitz


      From Charles Crawford, British ambassador to Poland, to the people

      of Poland.

      Dear people of Poland,

      I should like to apologise for my comments in my leaked e-mail in which I
      described Poland as "rude and ungrateful" over the European Union budgeting
      process and said the British government had created more jobs for Poles in the
      past year than the Polish government. Naturally, my e-mail was meant as a joke,
      and I am grateful to your foreign ministry for inviting me to discuss the
      difference between the British and Polish senses of humour.

      I have been in your country a mere two years, and confess to being deficient in
      good Polish jokes.

      But after a nice chat in your foreign office over several hours, I can now
      count myself fully up to date.

      From the British perspective, it has been illuminating to discover how
      marvellously unencumbered are new member states such as yourselves when it
      comes to the traditional language of diplomacy in the EU.

      How splendidly quaint that your people have little to no experience of the
      verbal joshing that we, the French and Germans have traded in the past 40
      years, which has done much to cement European co-operation and harmony. So well
      practised is such bonhomie that every new member of the EU has felt it
      necessary, indeed vital, to join in. For many diplomats, such friendly banter
      is one of the perks of the job and in the eyes of our national peoples
      justifies much of our remuneration.

      I salute the respect and politeness with which you conduct yourselves in EU
      matters and look forward to seeing how long it lasts. In the meantime, your
      Polish sense of humour will keep me thoroughly entertained for the rest of my
      posting.

      Yours sincerely,

      Charles Crawford



      news.ft.com/cms/s/99a18b56-6c45-11da-bb53-0000779e2340.html

      • usenetposts Re: is this funny? 16.12.05, 01:45
        Not a very inspired attempt at humour by Roger Blitz. One or two subtle
        sniggers in there, but it wasn't well informed enough to be truly funny.
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