oz follows france?

12.12.05, 14:56



Racial tensions have erupted into violence at a popular Sydney beach.Some
5,000 people gathered at Cronulla Beach to rally against youth gangs of
Middle East background. It comes after two young surf lifesavers were
attacked last Sunday by a group from Sydney's western suburbs.

Some of the crowd could be heard chanting "No more Lebs (Lebanese)".

Others carried Australian flags and dressed in Australian sports shirts,
yelled: "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie ... Oi, Oi, Oi".

Fighting broke out around lunchtime as the crowd began targeting people of
Middle East appearance.

At one stage an ambulance taking people to hospital was pelted by full
bottles of beer. More than 30 people were injured in the clashes.

Police arrested 28 people for offensive behaviour and assault and blocked
roads into the beach.

"The behaviour that has been seen down here at Cronulla today is nothing
short of disgusting and disgraceful," said assistant police commissioner Mark
Goodwin.

"It is certainly not the Australian way."

Cronulla Beach was the scene of two violent incidents last week - an attack
on two lifeguards on Sunday and a brawl later in the week in which youths
turned on a media crew.



uk.news.yahoo.com/11122005/140/racial-tensions-overflow-sydney.html
    • usenetposts Re: oz follows france? 12.12.05, 15:04
      chochise napisał:

      >
      >
      >
      > Racial tensions have erupted into violence at a popular Sydney beach.Some
      > 5,000 people gathered at Cronulla Beach to rally against youth gangs of
      > Middle East background. It comes after two young surf lifesavers were
      > attacked last Sunday by a group from Sydney's western suburbs.
      >
      > Some of the crowd could be heard chanting "No more Lebs (Lebanese)".
      >
      > Others carried Australian flags and dressed in Australian sports shirts,
      > yelled: "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie ... Oi, Oi, Oi".
      >
      > Fighting broke out around lunchtime as the crowd began targeting people of
      > Middle East appearance.
      >
      > At one stage an ambulance taking people to hospital was pelted by full
      > bottles of beer. More than 30 people were injured in the clashes.
      >
      > Police arrested 28 people for offensive behaviour and assault and blocked
      > roads into the beach.
      >
      > "The behaviour that has been seen down here at Cronulla today is nothing
      > short of disgusting and disgraceful," said assistant police commissioner Mark
      > Goodwin.
      >
      > "It is certainly not the Australian way."
      <snip>

      Bearing in mind that their country was formed around an overtly "white policy"
      of immigration until relatively recently, I would have said it was exactly the
      Australian way.

      And then there's the Tasmanian way, which involves total genocide of those who
      don't look like you.

      Where was Mark Goodwin when that was going on?
    • russh Re: oz follows france? & the UK etc.etc.etc. 12.12.05, 15:16
      Inevitable, although I hope it is just a local one-off.

      This is going to go on, and on, and on.

      It's a disease that is going to be very hard to cure.
      • chochise Re: oz follows france? & the UK etc.etc.etc. 12.12.05, 15:26
        By disease you mean immigration?
        • russh Re: oz follows france? & the UK etc.etc.etc. 12.12.05, 15:45
          No. I believe that immigration can be very positive, if controlled before, and
          nurtured after.

          From what I can make out, this has a 'middle-east' background, with Islamic
          ovetones. In the current 'global' climate of 'Western culture vs Islamic
          culture', this type of incident will continue. The disease in my opinion is the
          Islamic religion's fundementalists.
          • usenetposts Re: oz follows france? & the UK etc.etc.etc. 12.12.05, 15:52
            russh napisał:

            > No. I believe that immigration can be very positive, if controlled before, and
            > nurtured after.
            >
            > From what I can make out, this has a 'middle-east' background, with Islamic
            > ovetones. In the current 'global' climate of 'Western culture vs Islamic
            > culture', this type of incident will continue. The disease in my opinion is
            the
            > Islamic religion's fundementalists.

            That's pretty close to what I think. I would just add to that that an Islamic
            fundamentalist is any Islamic person who actually does believe his faith, as
            unlike in Christianity there isn't an alternative watered down version with
            other doctrines. There's no version of Islam that actively proclaims that Holy
            War is not one of the seven pillars, for example, or that the Koran should not
            be kept in Arabic, but rather translated into the local language and that used
            instead. It's just that the non-fundamentalist ones can't really be bothered
            about it.
            • chochise Re: oz follows france? & the UK etc.etc.etc. 12.12.05, 16:12
              Would you agree then, that fundamentalism stems from poverty?
              • russh Re: oz follows france? & the UK etc.etc.etc. 12.12.05, 16:37
                No. There are too many examples of people who are not poor blowing up
                themselves, and unfortunately others, for the cause to be poverty.

                I believe that it is a 'fundamental' difference in culture between at least a
                part of the Islamic faith and the western culture.

                Why there are the current levels of conflict, I am still trying to fathom out. I
                have some idea, but not well enough formed yet to espouse publically as 'informed'.
            • russh Re: oz follows france? & the UK etc.etc.etc. 12.12.05, 16:13
              I am fairly ignorant in relation to the subject, although trying to catch up.

              I have had Muslim colleagues (some time back). There were no problems, and
              although they were somewhat distant from the after-work bashes, they were as
              much fun, and as normal, as any of us during the day.

              I've had the opinion that in the Islamic religion, there are moderates and
              extremists (fundamentalists), and what we have been seeing over the last two
              decades has been the extremists taking the mantle.

              Must admit though, that the more I read about the Islamic faith, the more I am
              confused between the idea that there can be moderates, who are peace-loving
              people with a wish to reasonably integrate, and the teachings of the Koran,
              which preaches such discrimination against anything that is not Islamic.

              Would appreciate some education on the subject.
              • ianek70 Re: oz follows france? & the UK etc.etc.etc. 12.12.05, 16:39
                russh napisał:

                > Must admit though, that the more I read about the Islamic faith, the more I am
                > confused between the idea that there can be moderates, who are peace-loving
                > people with a wish to reasonably integrate, and the teachings of the Koran,
                > which preaches such discrimination against anything that is not Islamic.

                Basically people create gods in their own image.
                Jesus was represented as a warrior king in the poetry of 6th century Anglo-
                Saxons (who happened to be warlike at the time) and the gentle lamb of God in
                the 12th (when they'd stopped fighting each other). In Polish churches he is a
                blue-eyed, Slavic-looking blond, in Ireland he probably has ginger sideboards
                and freckles.
                When someone claims he kills prostitutes because God ordered him to do so and
                rewards him with coloured lights in his head, he goes to prison. When someone
                claims he opened a soup-kitchen in a poor district because God told him to,
                nobody questions this. Respectable people want respectable gods.
                The Aztecs had different ideas, because they were a bunch of violent nutters
                with equally violent gods (which came first?)
                A nice person whose local or family tradition happens to be islamic will
                interpret it as a peaceful religion. He won't read the bloodthirsty bits
                literally, and he'll underline the bits in the Koran about seeking knowledge.
                A brutal maniac with a grudge and a complex about his manhood will interpret
                the same scriptures in his own way.
                Christians tend to do the same, but mostly live in different conditions.
                • russh Re: oz follows france? & the UK etc.etc.etc. 12.12.05, 17:01
                  Agreed, to an extent.

                  Yes, Gods are created in an 'ideal' image, and this image has been modified to
                  an extent by the Christian world, as well as others over the years.

                  The Christian faith has in general changed with the years (if not always with
                  the times), and has always set, if not followed, certain moral standards.

                  It would seem that the Islamic God, who I believe is the same as the Christian
                  God (will read more later) has been modified less over the years, and the
                  religion seems to have stuck in time.

                  I would totally agree that a 'nice' person, who I would describe as a 'normal,
                  humane' person would tend to make his own interpretation of the testements (be
                  they the Bible or Koran), and this will leave the peaceful elements to dominate.

                  I would not agree that it is the conditions in which a person lives that makes
                  the difference, if you refer to wealth or poverty. If you mean the cultural
                  conditions that a person lives in, then I would partially agree, but the
                  argument against this are the London bombers.

                  I've still got a lot more to read up on.

                  Thanks for the input, and would love more, as this is, I believe, potentially
                  the most destructive problem of the past several hundred years.
              • bartis_ervin Re: oz follows france? & the UK etc.etc.etc. 12.12.05, 16:41

                Yes, there are moderate Muslims. The fact that the extremists are more visible
                it is quite obvious.
                If you would like to read more I really recommend the following material.

                Executive summary:
                www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=3300&CFID=11498504&CFTOKEN=35071049
                Full version:
                www.crisisgroup.org/library/documents/middle_east___north_africa/egypt_north_africa/37_understanding_islamism.pdf
                Ervin

                PS. if it asks for login just let me know and will send you the full version.

                Thebartiski.blogspot.com
                • russh Re: oz follows france? & the UK etc.etc.etc. 12.12.05, 17:02
                  Thanks - I'll do some reading later on.
    • nasza_maggie "Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World" 17.12.05, 17:52

      uk.news.yahoo.com/17122005/325/american-comedy-pokes-fun-u-s-ignorance-islam.html

      It may seem odd for an American to go to Asia, and not the Middle East, to
      learn about Islam after the September 11, 2001 attacks by al Qaeda.

      But U.S. comedian Albert Brooks said this peculiarity underscores the basic
      premise of his satirical film "Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World", which
      pokes fun at U.S. ignorance about Arabs and Muslims.

      ---

      If anyone gets to see this film, please let me knowsmile
      Thankssmile
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