bartis_ervin 14.12.05, 14:01 I would be interested what do you think about David Irving being arrested? Ervin Thebartiski.blogspot.com Odpowiedz Link czytaj wygodnie posty
usenetposts Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 14:48 I personally don't believe in freedom to express Holocaust Denial. I think that's the exception that proves the rule. I personally agree with him being arrested and imprisoned. Odpowiedz Link
portulaco Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 15:09 Were is written about holocaust denial? I couldn't find. Odpowiedz Link
chochise Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 15:30 Didn't the Iranian president come up with a holocaust denial claim, today? Holocaust a myth, says Iran president By Times Online and agencies The President of Iran claimed today that the Holocaust was a myth put about by Europeans to justify creating a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world. Speaking to thousands of people in the southeastern city of Zahedan, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said: "Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets." www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1930053,00.html Odpowiedz Link
firemouse Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 17:23 Ah, I would not pay much attention to what is spoken in this part of the world about Israel - all the region countries hate them and would erase it from the Earth if they only could. I can really understand it - let's assume that UN decides to create a new state in Europe. I believe all countries which would have to make space for it would immediately hate the new state. Say we get a new Borussian state in place of old Ostpreussen. Poland and Russia will be first to protest. So he just says that there was a plot to create Israel where it is now, according to me. But if he gets accused of HD (which is possible, his speech touches this very directly), then he and his country will have problems. FM Odpowiedz Link
russh Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 17:57 Dear Firemouse, There is a lot more to understand than you imply with your assumptions below. It's a very old and bruising story, and there is not just one side to it. It's one of those that is either better to leave alone, or be prepared for a long a protracted debate, that will probably become very heated. Odpowiedz Link
firemouse Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 11:30 Of course, there is more. I just think that anybody would think "Oh, another HD crime!" So I simply leave it go its way. But do we discuss here Irving and his HD activity - which I find unacceptable, regardless of the story how it happened (and certainly this could be stopped if American Jews, who knew about it would react), or Iran president? If the latter then I think this is another anti-Israel alliance and provocations. As said, touching HD in his speech he went into very dangerous field and if he thinks that this is a myth then he probably never read memories of many German officials from III Reich time, where they openly admit coordinated homicide against Jews, nor visited KLs where this happened, gettos remains, or saying simply - never went to school. But HD is one story, and apart from the number of victim (which is mostly exaggerated, but huge anyway) this is undeniable fact. Plotting against existence of Israel state is another thing and I will be not surprised if soon Iran would form another anti-Israel coalition with Arab countries. Why do I think so? Arab countries will always try to destroy Israel. First, territory. Second, humiliation in wars and by the world opinion, taking mostly Israel's side. But they lacked resources to reach their aim, and now with addition of Iran potential they may first time get it. The obstacle is American Army in Iraq, which will not pass Iran forces through and may enage in the conflict if Israel's existence will be threatend. Seeing this in a broad perspective, an Arab-Persian coalition, especially after victory over Israel, can be a force threatening Europe, considering especially a large Muslim minorty in EU. don't forget that many EU countries do not encourage these minorities to merge into societies, like events in France, Spain, UK and the Netherlands shown. Many Western Europeans despises these immigrants, hey, they despise even the immigrants from Eastern Europe, so what we talk about. All the people are seen as cheap labour force, who was once necessary and now only takes social benefits or steals jobs from the natives. This is of course simplified, because such position is not supported everywhere and against all immigrants, but in general is strong and gets more stronger as the EU economy collapses under social burdens. But no one wants to resign from "social economy", so this will always get worse, not actually the immigrants are responsible for this. But who wants to understand, (s)he does. So back into simulation, an Arab-Persian coalition defeats Israel, this causes a negative stir in Muslim societies in Europe (extremes are minority there, but able to take the lead), what Turkey will do is now the question (that's why they should join EU asap), possibly Afghanistan joins the coalition, hopefully Pakistan not, and we face a giant war between Europe and AP coalition. Where Europe, at least initially, is likely to lose. So I think that Israel is just an excuse here to give the offer.. And I hope I am wrong. So do I think and you can agree or not but I try to see further than just concentrate on words. FM Odpowiedz Link
firemouse Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 17:12 Legally, I suppose that Holocaust Denial is a crime in Austria, that's why he's got arrested. Personally, I never read anything from him so I can't speak. FM Odpowiedz Link
bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 10:30 Personally, I think that Holocaust denial shouldn't be a crime. I don't think that silencing him is productive, rather counter productive. Now he can make a martyr of himself. I think that rather the education should be the key. Educate the society that something like this happened, show to kids and students Nazi camps and then the society would marginalize Irving and his company. If somebody would incite for crimes included in the Penal Code, I would be the first to say: Jail them! With Ahmadinejad the difference is that he'll never go to Austria and nobody will arrest him and charge him. Portulaco, here are some links: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4449948.stm news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4446646.stm news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4449212.stm news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4460466.stm Ervin Thebartiski.blogspot.com Odpowiedz Link
russh Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 11:13 100% agreed. Education is the only long term solution to stopping any kind of violence, and especially for preventing something similar to the holocaust happening again. I sincerely believe that the teaching of the holocaust, and other instances of genocide should be a compulsory part of any school curriculem, and people should be encouraged to visit Auschwitz or similar. Odpowiedz Link
firemouse Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 11:39 I agree too, but why not add to this visits at Kolyma? Communist genocide was no less brutal and AFAIR Stalin is awarded by Guiness with first prize in category "mass killer". I have in my family people who were jailed and gulaged by NKWD after IIWW and they have no funny stories to say. This is sad that so many people in the West, where communism never existed, still think that it was just an attractive form of government and forget so easily what it brought to many of us. We can have better perspective, but as long as Western Europe will need Russian gas and oil, not mentioning access to Russian market, they will never listen to ex-bloc testimonies. FM Odpowiedz Link
varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 12:01 Stalin - "A fine Christian gentleman" - Roosevelt. They should have shot his cojones off for that bloomer. Education and holocaust denial is one thing, and I'd go for freedom of speech for fanatics up to the point where they get dangerous to public order. Education and a balanced view of history for kids is another thing entirely. I had this conversation in Birkenau with a English friend who was visiting. Of German Jewish background (parents fled Germany), his only knowledge of Poland was Schindler's List. He had so many questions to ask and was so open minded, but became irritated at his own ignorance of Polish affairs. He conceded that there was no way education could overcome this problem generally, as history teachers could face prosecution for forwarding theories about why the Jews failed to put up a serious fight in any country. Let's not discuss that one. He also said that his mother was lucky in getting compensation early on from the German govt, as later claimants had much of the compensation eaten up by their lawyers. Education is not the answer, because there is no-one brave enough to deliver it apart from fanatics - who are precisely the wrong people. Odpowiedz Link
russh Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 22:19 Re Stalin - absolutely. The guy, and his 'government' were at least on a par with Hitler. How many mass graves have been found? I don't know though if there is still anyone left in the 'West' who has any pretences as to Russian behaviour. There have been too many articles, films and books for anyone not have read or seen them. The past is the past though, and now there's the global market to worry about! Odpowiedz Link
portulaco Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 11:47 Thank you for the links Ervin, It's enough to see the image of this man to see he's choleric, his wrinkles between his eyebrows show a constant hanger. Since few years there is a tendency to make Hitler a victim more than a murderer. I can give exemple of lack of knowledge about the holocaust in my own country, many people don't even know that Auschwitz and Berkinau concentration camps are in Poland, many believe they're in Germany. I recall some Portuguese guy saying very proudly that we went to Germany and payed also a visit to Auschwitz and Treblinka! Another important metter wich I believe is not spoken openly. Jewish community was devastated but there is nowadays an excessive domain of Jewish influence in the maintenance of the Polish concentration camps, everybody should know that this "hells" were also to Poles,Gipsy etc... I'm not at all anti-semit! The termination of Jewish community, the Holocaust was obviously planned to the detail much before 1940's. Odpowiedz Link
varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 12:05 I don't think the massacre of all the Jews was planned that early, actually. The Nazis were very disorganized indeed. Despite Germany having some excellent economists and totalitarian government, Britain organized her economy better during the war. Probably the last time it was well-organized. Nazi thinking developed during the war. Odpowiedz Link
portulaco Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 12:41 Mainkampf is a proof of the ideas of Hitler for God sake! Odpowiedz Link
varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 12:57 Oh I agree entirely. No-one would seriously say that Hitler was nothing other than evil. I just wanted to point out that the concept of the Final Solution developed during the war. It's just a question of the timing of the decision. If it had been decided earlier, the Nazis would have started the slaughter earlier. Again, no-one serious would claim that Hitler was not the person ultimately responsible nor that he was the only one responsible. Odpowiedz Link
bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 15:40 The fact that education is not well organised is not a proof that education is not THE way. Romania until 1999-2000 officialy denied that Romas and Jews were exterminated in the country during the II WW. In Romanian history books you won't find any description or lesson about the Holocaust or Romania's (Antonescu's role) in murdering Jews and Roma. What I don't understand is why CoE and EU and Israel are not putting pressure on Romania... Ervin Thebartiski.blogspot.com Odpowiedz Link
varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 16:08 That's disgraceful. By the way, did Romania try to make itself out to be a victim of Nazism like Hungary and Austria? Odpowiedz Link
bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 19:17 I was born and grew up in Romania, but I am ethnic Hungarian, so I have a bit different view of history than the mainstream If you have time, read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Antonescu I took a look at the Romanian version of the article and to my greatest surprise the "tough" parts are taken out. While according to the Romanian version it is not sure if Antonescu was antisemite and if yes, then whether his motives were economical or based on race. The English version writes the harsh and painful truth: "In general, Ion Antonescu was dominated by his loathing of Jews and Judaism. He revealed this hatred at a session of the Council of Ministers on April 15, 1941: “I give the mob complete license to massacre [the Jews]. I will withdraw to my fortress, and after the slaughter, I will restore order.” This was a rather accurate prediction of what was to take place in Iasi shortly thereafter. In numerous instances Antonescu personally instigated specific antisemitic steps adopted by the Romanian fascist state....Antonescu was a war criminal in the purest definition of the phrase. His leadership involved the Romanian government in crimes against humanity unrivaled in Romania’s sometimes glorious, sometimes cruel history" Ervin Thebartiski.blogspot.com Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 00:46 Hmmn. Someone needs to point out to the mods of Wikipedia the sort of censorship that is going on there. I might take some action on this if I have your leave to do so. Odpowiedz Link
bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 09:22 I don't think that you need my leave and I thnk it is a good idea to intervene. The thing is that the users are making the materials, so it means that the users also censored the RO version of the article. I'm sure that you know the history of the region well and also that Romanians are not self-confident regarding their history. This is why, even on an insitutionalized level they try not to present the violent and ugly parts of the history. It's not the right post to say this, but I don't want to dig in now: how did your car registering went? Why you don't sue the Transport Ministry? I don't know how costy are lawsuits here, in Romania if you sued a public institution it costed nothing. In a way it might be a waste of time, but in a way not because it is about your legally recognised rights. Ervin Thebartiski.blogspot.com Odpowiedz Link
varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 12:58 ervin I have a Hungarian Slovakian relation I'm on good terms with - persecuted by his Polish wife though(she vetoed her kids learning Hungarian, would you believe). Odpowiedz Link
bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 15:39 That's a pity.. but they have their passports and all the shots and if they worked it out this way.. Anyway, it is a pity. I talked with a couple of child psychologists and they said that 3 languages from the start it is no problem, though it might have the effect that the malutki/malutka will start talking a bit later. My future kids have already a list of 3 languages: Polish, Hungarian and English. Probably we'll live in some crazy place like Azerbaijan or Kirgyzstan, so some local language skills could be useful. A latin language would be also nice, but here is getting a bit too much We'll see Is you Hungarian friend from Slovakia living in Warsaw? I would be interested in contacting him. Ervin Thebartiski.blogspot.com Odpowiedz Link
varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 16:38 He lives in Gora Kalwaria As for my relations ... the English side thought we were crazy making the kids as Polish as possible while we were living in England, while the Polish side thinks we're crazy for making the kids as English as possible now we're living in Poland. If we'd listened to both of them the kids would be speaking no language at all, presumably. Odpowiedz Link
russh Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 16:42 Thank god you didn't listen to them. The kids have a born advantage. Odpowiedz Link
nasza_maggie Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 17:07 Very good idea. This will only be an advantage to them Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 00:44 bartis_ervin napisał: > > Personally, I think that Holocaust denial shouldn't be a crime. I don't think > that silencing him is productive, rather counter productive. Now he can make a > martyr of himself. He can make a martyr of himself all he likes, but Bubba will be making a bitch of him. And the only people that this "martyrdom" of his will appeal to are those who are set to go to jail without passing go and collecting 200 shekels and become Bubba's bitches in the not too distant future. The we can all practice Irving Anal Rape Denial, in exchange for his Holocaust Denial, whenever he complains about it. Odpowiedz Link
ianek70 Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 11:30 Today four young men were handing out leaflets in the centre of Katowice. Since they claimed it was a campaign for freedom of speech, I took one. But even from the title "Austrian Soviet Republic" it was obvious that it was written by braindead fascists, and could only be of interest to other braindead fascists. It describes Irving as a "well-known and respected" historian and a "great friend of Poland". The words "Hitler" and "holocaust" don't appear at all in the text, and the bigoted old fart's crime is described as "disproving the official, politically correct version of history." So they distort facts to fight for the right for others to distort facts. Irving is a nasty, bitter little man, but as so many have already said, his arrest was counter-productive. They should do what the British do - let him speak, but throw eggs and bottles at him. Odpowiedz Link
nasza_maggie Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 11:37 Facism is quite 'popular'(?) in that part of Poland. Maybe it's because of high unemployment. Anyway, was it something form Mlodzież Wszechpolska? They're a bunch of Adrian Mole lookalikes who run around with 'anti' slogans for everything. Odpowiedz Link
ianek70 Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 11:45 nasza_maggie napisała: > Facism is quite 'popular'(?) in that part of Poland. Maybe it's because of high > > unemployment. > Anyway, was it something form Mlodzież Wszechpolska? They're a bunch of Adrian > Mole lookalikes who run around with 'anti' slogans for everything. No, it wasn't the wszechpolaczkis, it was the NOP, who are even stupider. As it took them over a month to respond to Irving's arrest, they can't be very well organised, and disorganised people don't make very good fascists. It defeats the whole purpose. Their logo represents a hand holding a sword, but it seems to be holding the sharp end www.nop.org.pl Odpowiedz Link
nasza_maggie Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 11:52 goodness, I recognise them During the elections they had one of the worst adverts for their leader to be president that I've ever seen! It was as if they let a bunch of 12 year olds into the edit suite, gave them some slogans and film material and hey presto! Heh, no need to take any notice of them. I guess they're like the National Front in the UK. Odpowiedz Link
ianek70 Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 12:06 nasza_maggie napisała: > goodness, I recognise them During the elections they had one of the worst > adverts for their leader to be president that I've ever seen! That's the fellows. There's lots of them in Sosnowiec. They seem to think that if the town was 101% white, Slavic and aryan (instead of 100%, like it is now), it wouldn't be the dullest, ugliest and most depressing place in Europe. In some ways it's even worse than Johnstone Odpowiedz Link
ianek70 Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 12:17 nasza_maggie napisała: > Johnstone? A terrible, terrible place. You don't even want to know. Odpowiedz Link
bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 20.02.06, 17:28 It looks that Austrian prisons can change a man's view on many things. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4730832.stm Ervin Thebartiski.blogspot.com Odpowiedz Link
ianek70 Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 20.02.06, 17:41 bartis_ervin napisał: > > It looks that Austrian prisons can change a man's view on many things. "I'm not an expert on the Holocaust", says Irving. So is he a worthless coward who'll say anything to avoid prison for his "beliefs", or just a dirty little hypocrite, who only "knows" about the war when people pay for his books and lectures? He's pathetic, not even a real fascist, otherwise he'd make a martyr of himself. Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 20.02.06, 19:22 ianek70 napisał: > bartis_ervin napisał: > > > > > It looks that Austrian prisons can change a man's view on many things. > Heh heh heh. > "I'm not an expert on the Holocaust", says Irving. > So is he a worthless coward who'll say anything to avoid prison for > his "beliefs", or just a dirty little hypocrite, who only "knows" about the war > > when people pay for his books and lectures? > Quite. > He's pathetic, not even a real fascist, otherwise he'd make a martyr of >himself He's trying to do that a bit, but at the same time asking for "a certain leniency in the sentence". I would be very lenient, I would put him in prison in Austria at all, I'd just hand him straight over to the Knesset. His face, by the way, emanates pure evil. Odpowiedz Link