Now that the freedom of speech came up...

14.12.05, 14:01

I would be interested what do you think about David Irving being arrested?

Ervin

Thebartiski.blogspot.com
    • usenetposts Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 14:48
      I personally don't believe in freedom to express Holocaust Denial. I think
      that's the exception that proves the rule.

      I personally agree with him being arrested and imprisoned.
      • portulaco Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 15:09
        Were is written about holocaust denial? I couldn't find.
    • chochise Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 15:30
      Didn't the Iranian president come up with a holocaust denial claim, today?




      Holocaust a myth, says Iran president
      By Times Online and agencies

      The President of Iran claimed today that the Holocaust was a myth put about by
      Europeans to justify creating a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.

      Speaking to thousands of people in the southeastern city of Zahedan, Mahmoud
      Ahmadinejad said: "Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and
      consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets."

      www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1930053,00.html
      • firemouse Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 17:23
        Ah, I would not pay much attention to what is spoken in this part of the world
        about Israel - all the region countries hate them and would erase it from the
        Earth if they only could.

        I can really understand it - let's assume that UN decides to create a new state
        in Europe. I believe all countries which would have to make space for it would
        immediately hate the new state.

        Say we get a new Borussian state in place of old Ostpreussen. Poland and Russia
        will be first to protest.

        So he just says that there was a plot to create Israel where it is now,
        according to me. But if he gets accused of HD (which is possible, his speech
        touches this very directly), then he and his country will have problems.

        FM
        • russh Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 17:57
          Dear Firemouse,

          There is a lot more to understand than you imply with your assumptions below.

          It's a very old and bruising story, and there is not just one side to it. It's
          one of those that is either better to leave alone, or be prepared for a long a
          protracted debate, that will probably become very heated.
          • firemouse Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 11:30
            Of course, there is more. I just think that anybody would think "Oh, another HD
            crime!" So I simply leave it go its way.

            But do we discuss here Irving and his HD activity - which I find unacceptable,
            regardless of the story how it happened (and certainly this could be stopped if
            American Jews, who knew about it would react), or Iran president? If the latter
            then I think this is another anti-Israel alliance and provocations. As said,
            touching HD in his speech he went into very dangerous field and if he thinks
            that this is a myth then he probably never read memories of many German
            officials from III Reich time, where they openly admit coordinated homicide
            against Jews, nor visited KLs where this happened, gettos remains, or saying
            simply - never went to school.

            But HD is one story, and apart from the number of victim (which is mostly
            exaggerated, but huge anyway) this is undeniable fact. Plotting against
            existence of Israel state is another thing and I will be not surprised if soon
            Iran would form another anti-Israel coalition with Arab countries.

            Why do I think so?

            Arab countries will always try to destroy Israel. First, territory. Second,
            humiliation in wars and by the world opinion, taking mostly Israel's side. But
            they lacked resources to reach their aim, and now with addition of Iran
            potential they may first time get it. The obstacle is American Army in Iraq,
            which will not pass Iran forces through and may enage in the conflict if
            Israel's existence will be threatend. Seeing this in a broad perspective, an
            Arab-Persian coalition, especially after victory over Israel, can be a force
            threatening Europe, considering especially a large Muslim minorty in EU. don't
            forget that many EU countries do not encourage these minorities to merge into
            societies, like events in France, Spain, UK and the Netherlands shown. Many
            Western Europeans despises these immigrants, hey, they despise even the
            immigrants from Eastern Europe, so what we talk about. All the people are seen
            as cheap labour force, who was once necessary and now only takes social benefits
            or steals jobs from the natives. This is of course simplified, because such
            position is not supported everywhere and against all immigrants, but in general
            is strong and gets more stronger as the EU economy collapses under social
            burdens. But no one wants to resign from "social economy", so this will always
            get worse, not actually the immigrants are responsible for this. But who wants
            to understand, (s)he does.

            So back into simulation, an Arab-Persian coalition defeats Israel, this causes a
            negative stir in Muslim societies in Europe (extremes are minority there, but
            able to take the lead), what Turkey will do is now the question (that's why they
            should join EU asap), possibly Afghanistan joins the coalition, hopefully
            Pakistan not, and we face a giant war between Europe and AP coalition. Where
            Europe, at least initially, is likely to lose.

            So I think that Israel is just an excuse here to give the offer..

            And I hope I am wrong.

            So do I think and you can agree or not but I try to see further than just
            concentrate on words.

            FM
    • firemouse Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 14.12.05, 17:12
      Legally, I suppose that Holocaust Denial is a crime in Austria, that's why he's
      got arrested.

      Personally, I never read anything from him so I can't speak.

      FM
      • bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 10:30

        Personally, I think that Holocaust denial shouldn't be a crime. I don't think
        that silencing him is productive, rather counter productive. Now he can make a
        martyr of himself.
        I think that rather the education should be the key. Educate the society that
        something like this happened, show to kids and students Nazi camps and then the
        society would marginalize Irving and his company.

        If somebody would incite for crimes included in the Penal Code, I would be the
        first to say: Jail them!

        With Ahmadinejad the difference is that he'll never go to Austria and nobody
        will arrest him and charge him.

        Portulaco, here are some links:
        news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4449948.stm
        news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4446646.stm
        news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4449212.stm
        news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4460466.stm
        Ervin

        Thebartiski.blogspot.com
        • russh Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 11:13
          100% agreed.

          Education is the only long term solution to stopping any kind of violence, and
          especially for preventing something similar to the holocaust happening again.

          I sincerely believe that the teaching of the holocaust, and other instances of
          genocide should be a compulsory part of any school curriculem, and people should
          be encouraged to visit Auschwitz or similar.
          • firemouse Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 11:39
            I agree too, but why not add to this visits at Kolyma?

            Communist genocide was no less brutal and AFAIR Stalin is awarded by Guiness
            with first prize in category "mass killer".

            I have in my family people who were jailed and gulaged by NKWD after IIWW and
            they have no funny stories to say.

            This is sad that so many people in the West, where communism never existed,
            still think that it was just an attractive form of government and forget so
            easily what it brought to many of us. We can have better perspective, but as
            long as Western Europe will need Russian gas and oil, not mentioning access to
            Russian market, they will never listen to ex-bloc testimonies.

            FM
            • varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 12:01
              Stalin - "A fine Christian gentleman" - Roosevelt.
              They should have shot his cojones off for that bloomer.

              Education and holocaust denial is one thing, and I'd go for freedom of speech
              for fanatics up to the point where they get dangerous to public order.
              Education and a balanced view of history for kids is another thing entirely.

              I had this conversation in Birkenau with a English friend who was visiting. Of
              German Jewish background (parents fled Germany), his only knowledge of Poland
              was Schindler's List. He had so many questions to ask and was so open minded,
              but became irritated at his own ignorance of Polish affairs. He conceded that
              there was no way education could overcome this problem generally, as history
              teachers could face prosecution for forwarding theories about why the Jews
              failed to put up a serious fight in any country. Let's not discuss that one.
              He also said that his mother was lucky in getting compensation early on from
              the German govt, as later claimants had much of the compensation eaten up by
              their lawyers.

              Education is not the answer, because there is no-one brave enough to deliver it
              apart from fanatics - who are precisely the wrong people.
            • russh Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 22:19
              Re Stalin - absolutely. The guy, and his 'government' were at least on a par
              with Hitler. How many mass graves have been found?

              I don't know though if there is still anyone left in the 'West' who has any
              pretences as to Russian behaviour. There have been too many articles, films and
              books for anyone not have read or seen them.

              The past is the past though, and now there's the global market to worry about!
          • portulaco Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 11:47
            Thank you for the links Ervin,

            It's enough to see the image of this man to see he's choleric, his wrinkles
            between his eyebrows show a constant hanger.

            Since few years there is a tendency to make Hitler a victim more than a
            murderer.

            I can give exemple of lack of knowledge about the holocaust in my own country,
            many people don't even know that Auschwitz and Berkinau concentration camps are
            in Poland, many believe they're in Germany.

            I recall some Portuguese guy saying very proudly that we went to Germany and
            payed also a visit to Auschwitz and Treblinka!

            Another important metter wich I believe is not spoken openly.

            Jewish community was devastated but there is nowadays an excessive domain of
            Jewish influence in the maintenance of the Polish concentration camps,
            everybody should know that this "hells" were also to Poles,Gipsy etc...

            I'm not at all anti-semit!


            The termination of Jewish community, the Holocaust was obviously planned to the
            detail much before 1940's.



            • varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 12:05
              I don't think the massacre of all the Jews was planned that early, actually.
              The Nazis were very disorganized indeed. Despite Germany having some excellent
              economists and totalitarian government, Britain organized her economy better
              during the war. Probably the last time it was well-organized.
              Nazi thinking developed during the war.
              • portulaco Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 12:41
                Mainkampf is a proof of the ideas of Hitler for God sake!
                • varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 12:57
                  Oh I agree entirely.
                  No-one would seriously say that Hitler was nothing other than evil. I just
                  wanted to point out that the concept of the Final Solution developed during the
                  war. It's just a question of the timing of the decision. If it had been
                  decided earlier, the Nazis would have started the slaughter earlier.
                  Again, no-one serious would claim that Hitler was not the person ultimately
                  responsible nor that he was the only one responsible.
            • bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 15:40

              The fact that education is not well organised is not a proof that education is
              not THE way.

              Romania until 1999-2000 officialy denied that Romas and Jews were exterminated
              in the country during the II WW. In Romanian history books you won't find any
              description or lesson about the Holocaust or Romania's (Antonescu's role) in
              murdering Jews and Roma.

              What I don't understand is why CoE and EU and Israel are not putting pressure on
              Romania...

              Ervin

              Thebartiski.blogspot.com
              • varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 16:08
                That's disgraceful.
                By the way, did Romania try to make itself out to be a victim of Nazism like
                Hungary and Austria?
                • bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 15.12.05, 19:17

                  I was born and grew up in Romania, but I am ethnic Hungarian, so I have a bit
                  different view of history than the mainstreamsmile

                  If you have time, read this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Antonescu

                  I took a look at the Romanian version of the article and to my greatest surprise
                  the "tough" parts are taken out.

                  While according to the Romanian version it is not sure if Antonescu was
                  antisemite and if yes, then whether his motives were economical or based on race.

                  The English version writes the harsh and painful truth:
                  "In general, Ion Antonescu was dominated by his loathing of Jews and Judaism. He
                  revealed this hatred at a session of the Council of Ministers on April 15, 1941:
                  “I give the mob complete license to massacre [the Jews]. I will withdraw to my
                  fortress, and after the slaughter, I will restore order.” This was a rather
                  accurate prediction of what was to take place in Iasi shortly thereafter. In
                  numerous instances Antonescu personally instigated specific antisemitic steps
                  adopted by the Romanian fascist state....Antonescu was a war criminal in the
                  purest definition of the phrase. His leadership involved the Romanian government
                  in crimes against humanity unrivaled in Romania’s sometimes glorious, sometimes
                  cruel history"

                  Ervin

                  Thebartiski.blogspot.com
                  • usenetposts Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 00:46
                    Hmmn. Someone needs to point out to the mods of Wikipedia the sort of
                    censorship that is going on there.

                    I might take some action on this if I have your leave to do so.
                    • bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 09:22

                      I don't think that you need my leave and I thnk it is a good idea to intervene.
                      The thing is that the users are making the materials, so it means that the users
                      also censored the RO version of the article.

                      I'm sure that you know the history of the region well and also that Romanians
                      are not self-confident regarding their history. This is why, even on an
                      insitutionalized level they try not to present the violent and ugly parts of the
                      history.

                      It's not the right post to say this, but I don't want to dig in now: how did
                      your car registering went? Why you don't sue the Transport Ministry? I don't
                      know how costy are lawsuits here, in Romania if you sued a public institution it
                      costed nothing.
                      In a way it might be a waste of time, but in a way not because it is about your
                      legally recognised rights.

                      Ervin

                      Thebartiski.blogspot.com
                  • varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 12:58
                    ervin
                    I have a Hungarian Slovakian relation I'm on good terms with - persecuted by
                    his Polish wife though(she vetoed her kids learning Hungarian, would you
                    believe).
                    • bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 15:39

                      That's a pity.. but they have their passports and all the shots and if they
                      worked it out this way.. Anyway, it is a pity. I talked with a couple of child
                      psychologists and they said that 3 languages from the start it is no problem,
                      though it might have the effect that the malutki/malutka will start talking a
                      bit later.

                      My future kids have already a list of 3 languages: Polish, Hungarian and
                      English. Probably we'll live in some crazy place like Azerbaijan or Kirgyzstan,
                      so some local language skills could be useful. A latin language would be also
                      nice, but here is getting a bit too muchsmile We'll seesmile

                      Is you Hungarian friend from Slovakia living in Warsaw? I would be interested in
                      contacting him.

                      Ervin

                      Thebartiski.blogspot.com
                      • varsovian Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 16:38
                        He lives in Gora Kalwaria

                        As for my relations ... the English side thought we were crazy making the kids
                        as Polish as possible while we were living in England, while the Polish side
                        thinks we're crazy for making the kids as English as possible now we're living
                        in Poland.
                        If we'd listened to both of them the kids would be speaking no language at all,
                        presumably.
                        • russh Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 16:42
                          Thank god you didn't listen to them.

                          The kids have a born advantage.
                          • nasza_maggie Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 17:07
                            Very good idea. This will only be an advantage to themsmile
        • usenetposts Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 16.12.05, 00:44
          bartis_ervin napisał:

          >
          > Personally, I think that Holocaust denial shouldn't be a crime. I don't think
          > that silencing him is productive, rather counter productive. Now he can make a
          > martyr of himself.

          He can make a martyr of himself all he likes, but Bubba will be making a bitch
          of him. And the only people that this "martyrdom" of his will appeal to are
          those who are set to go to jail without passing go and collecting 200 shekels
          and become Bubba's bitches in the not too distant future.

          The we can all practice Irving Anal Rape Denial, in exchange for his Holocaust
          Denial, whenever he complains about it.
    • ianek70 Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 11:30
      Today four young men were handing out leaflets in the centre of Katowice.
      Since they claimed it was a campaign for freedom of speech, I took one.
      But even from the title "Austrian Soviet Republic" it was obvious that it was
      written by braindead fascists, and could only be of interest to other braindead
      fascists.
      It describes Irving as a "well-known and respected" historian and a "great
      friend of Poland". The words "Hitler" and "holocaust" don't appear at all in
      the text, and the bigoted old fart's crime is described as "disproving the
      official, politically correct version of history."
      So they distort facts to fight for the right for others to distort facts.
      Irving is a nasty, bitter little man, but as so many have already said, his
      arrest was counter-productive. They should do what the British do - let him
      speak, but throw eggs and bottles at him.
      • nasza_maggie Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 11:37
        Facism is quite 'popular'(?) in that part of Poland. Maybe it's because of high
        unemployment.
        Anyway, was it something form Mlodzież Wszechpolska? They're a bunch of Adrian
        Mole lookalikes who run around with 'anti' slogans for everything.
        • ianek70 Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 11:45
          nasza_maggie napisała:

          > Facism is quite 'popular'(?) in that part of Poland. Maybe it's because of
          high
          >
          > unemployment.
          > Anyway, was it something form Mlodzież Wszechpolska? They're a bunch of
          Adrian
          > Mole lookalikes who run around with 'anti' slogans for everything.

          No, it wasn't the wszechpolaczkis, it was the NOP, who are even stupider. As it
          took them over a month to respond to Irving's arrest, they can't be very well
          organised, and disorganised people don't make very good fascists. It defeats
          the whole purpose.
          Their logo represents a hand holding a sword, but it seems to be holding the
          sharp end smile
          www.nop.org.pl
          • nasza_maggie Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 11:52
            goodness, I recognise themsmile During the elections they had one of the worst
            adverts for their leader to be president that I've ever seen!
            It was as if they let a bunch of 12 year olds into the edit suite, gave them
            some slogans and film material and hey presto!

            Heh, no need to take any notice of them. I guess they're like the National
            Front in the UK.
            • ianek70 Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 12:06
              nasza_maggie napisała:

              > goodness, I recognise themsmile During the elections they had one of the worst
              > adverts for their leader to be president that I've ever seen!

              That's the fellows.
              There's lots of them in Sosnowiec. They seem to think that if the town was 101%
              white, Slavic and aryan (instead of 100%, like it is now), it wouldn't be the
              dullest, ugliest and most depressing place in Europe. In some ways it's even
              worse than Johnstone sad
              • nasza_maggie Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 12:06
                Johnstone?
                • ianek70 Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 12:17
                  nasza_maggie napisała:

                  > Johnstone?

                  A terrible, terrible place.
                  You don't even want to know.
                  • nasza_maggie Re: Nazis gave me a leaflet 17.12.05, 12:19
                    No. Go on!
    • bartis_ervin Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 20.02.06, 17:28

      It looks that Austrian prisons can change a man's view on many things.
      news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4730832.stm
      Ervin

      Thebartiski.blogspot.com
      • ianek70 Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 20.02.06, 17:41
        bartis_ervin napisał:

        >
        > It looks that Austrian prisons can change a man's view on many things.

        "I'm not an expert on the Holocaust", says Irving.
        So is he a worthless coward who'll say anything to avoid prison for
        his "beliefs", or just a dirty little hypocrite, who only "knows" about the war
        when people pay for his books and lectures?

        He's pathetic, not even a real fascist, otherwise he'd make a martyr of himself.
        • usenetposts Re: Now that the freedom of speech came up... 20.02.06, 19:22
          ianek70 napisał:

          > bartis_ervin napisał:
          >
          > >
          > > It looks that Austrian prisons can change a man's view on many things.
          >

          Heh heh heh.

          > "I'm not an expert on the Holocaust", says Irving.
          > So is he a worthless coward who'll say anything to avoid prison for
          > his "beliefs", or just a dirty little hypocrite, who only "knows" about the
          war
          >
          > when people pay for his books and lectures?
          >

          Quite.

          > He's pathetic, not even a real fascist, otherwise he'd make a martyr of
          >himself

          He's trying to do that a bit, but at the same time asking for "a certain
          leniency in the sentence". I would be very lenient, I would put him in prison
          in Austria at all, I'd just hand him straight over to the Knesset.

          His face, by the way, emanates pure evil.
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