Ethno-centrism, socio-linguistics and other evil..

16.12.05, 10:46
I don't know how about you but it seems that whenever we're discussing given
subject with foreigner, almost always we don't get the answer that we would
expect. Wheather he or she is a Scot, Pole, Brit, Hungarian or someone from
Portugal, all are going to be unknowingly ignorant to folks that belong to
other cultures.

Same way whenever I speak my heart, and discuss the issue that is important
to me and based on my best knowlege, someone pops up and tell me that what
I'm saying is unacceptable or spam....So it seems that being myself, and
puting polish issues and polish point of view is an outright crime for a
british (or other) folks....

I just wished that we all considered that we are in a cosmopolitan company
and the consensus is harder to achieve. So please my friends don't dismiss
right away everything what person form other culture says, and accept the
fact that we are all not on the same page, better yet everybody reads
different book...

How in the world can we expect others to agree on everything, if what is
important to you is at no interest for you and vice-versa?




    • firemouse Re: Ethno-centrism, socio-linguistics and other e 16.12.05, 11:17
      Eh, I am considered to be your supporter, but better not count on this.

      I think the main problem is mastering the diffcult art of discussion, where
      basic rule is not to offend the opponent. Even if your case is right, a wrong
      way of presentation can have devastative effect on the final outcome. Think what
      you want to say to others, and once you write it, read it again.

      I am not sure what you mean with "almost always we don't get the answer that we
      would expect". Maybe others see the issue differently? Can you deny them such a
      view? No. Can you reason the answer, which you expect? If so, try to convince
      others to your point of view. Or maybe the answer is different than you think?

      If you think that other lack the knowledge of Polish culture, present it to them
      in such a form they will understand. No one is perfect. People think different
      ways and this is good for mankind as such. Don't say they are ignorant. I can
      bet in this way it is equally justifable to say you are ignorant to Scottish,
      Hungarian or Portuguese culture. Not mentioning British. This comes directly
      from what you just wrote. Do you agree? If you are familiar with British
      culture, then the sentence you wrote:

      "Wheather he or she is a Scot, Pole, Brit, Hungarian or someone from
      > Portugal, all are going to be unknowingly ignorant to folks that belong to
      > other cultures. "

      is incorrect. Generalisation is very dangerous.

      And, to my knowledge, people are just tired with your aggression. Oh no, don't
      write it is opposite. If you really think this is untrue, then why everybody
      else thinks so?

      And I will be pleased to see you writing Polish with big "P" in the front.
      Polish starting with small "p" has _very_ different meaning.

      FM
      • russh Re: Ethno-centrism, socio-linguistics and other e 16.12.05, 11:43
        Very, very well put.
        • waldek1610 Re: Ethno-centrism, socio-linguistics and other e 16.12.05, 11:58
          I think you guys been drinking the same "swinstwo" (some bad alcohol) because I
          don't see other explanation.

          P.S. The guy in fact my be right, but he proves otherwise when he dismisses the
          fact that pole (such as myself) can feel offended by others who don't read what
          they have written before sending it....It's ok if they ignore my point of view,
          but if Waldek ignores theirs its a crime..and there you go Waldek is
          unacceptable and has to be banned because he doesn't write what British want to
          hear about themselves and poles...
          • firemouse Re: Ethno-centrism, socio-linguistics and other e 16.12.05, 12:32
            waldek1610 napisał:

            > I think you guys been drinking the same "swinstwo" (some bad alcohol) because I
            >
            > don't see other explanation.

            When you fish, pay attention what takes your bait. You can be pulled under water
            very quickly.

            FM
            • waldek1610 Re: Ethno-centrism, socio-linguistics and other e 16.12.05, 12:39
              firemouse napisał:

              > waldek1610 napisał:
              >
              > > I think you guys been drinking the same "swinstwo" (some bad alcohol)
              > > because I

              > > don't see other explanation.


              > When you fish, pay attention what takes your bait. You can be pulled under
              > watervery quickly.

              No fish is "too big" for me...You suggest that you pulled me under water?
              Because I don't feel that way. I just feel that I caught you and instead of
              giving up you trying to fight a lost battle.

              > FM
              • firemouse Re: Ethno-centrism, socio-linguistics and other e 16.12.05, 13:30
                waldek1610 napisał:


                > No fish is "too big" for me...You suggest that you pulled me under water?
                > Because I don't feel that way. I just feel that I caught you and instead of
                > giving up you trying to fight a lost battle.

                smile))
    • russh A reply to a 'post from the heart' 16.12.05, 11:41
      Waldek,

      I you only expressed your opinions in a way that they did not seem offensive, or
      almost racist, and started to take some things more light-heartedly, then I am
      sure that no one would have any problems with you. I for one would enjoy the banter.

      The problem is that it hasn't been banter, it's been 100% anti anything
      Anglo-Saxon / American. Your protection of Poland against some light-hearted
      comments has been completely over-the-top, and when it's been pointed out to
      you, you respond with near-racist comments.

      You must realise that most people on this forum have, for one reason or another,
      adopted Poland as their home. It seems to me that most of us very much
      appreciate the country and its people, but have some gripes - all perfectly
      normal. It's also perfectly normal for those people to share their experiences,
      both positive and negative.

      Poland and the Polish have no need of defence, as no one is attacking them. Put
      forward your point-of-view, but don't either ram it down people's throats, or
      insult them.

      I very much hope that you have understood both what I have said and the spirit
      in which it was said, and start to contribute to the forum in a less
      antagonistic way. We can then all start to enjoy the many different opinions
      that are expressed.
      • waldek1610 small talk and word play vs. serious discussion 16.12.05, 12:33
        Russh,
        I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but there's one problem that lingers;
        even when I'm expressing my view on polish subjects, like the one on "Poles
        counting and nameing everything with a number"...I'm in no way in a position to
        offend british folks, right?

        Wrong! It seems when I defend polish point of view, I get reply that I'm a
        spammer because I say things that are "unacceptable". To you it might be
        unacceptable, but then again ...you can't really know what if nameing
        everything 6-ka, 2-ka is makes things easer for poles do you?

        For the same reason, although I don't quite understand why english, unlike
        americans say; "The news conference is expected in 2 hours time"...I don't
        stalk folks who doesn't agree with me. I could question the necessity for the
        word "time" in above sentence, but if it makes it clearler for english folks
        that's fine by me.

        What really proves that some of you don't understand polish psyche is when
        Kylie was trying to prove that Waldek is contradicting himself when he is
        saying the defends polish point of view but then he writes "Polacy to cwaniacy
        i oszuci "(poles are arrogant and crooks).

        To you it might sound contradictory, unless you understand that for poles it is
        acceptable to be critical of themselves. (Poles love to talk about serious
        amtters, and will almost never angage in small talk as americans or in a word
        play as english might)

        But it is considered rude and offensive when outsider critisizes Poland in
        poles presence. Same way african-americans call itself n....., but if you call
        them same way its very offensive.
        • russh Re: small talk and word play vs. serious discussi 16.12.05, 13:51
          Hi Waldek,

          I really do not want to seem patronising, but now we are beginning to have a
          debate. No insults, but - at least for me - an intelligent discussion where we
          are each putting our views across in a sensible manner, and we can each agree or
          otherwise.

          I think that one of the things that you may not understand, and it would be
          quite natural not being British, is that the threads put up by Ian were, in my
          opinion, a humorous look on some things that he, and maybe any foreigner not
          used to such things, would consider strange. The Polish position should for
          sure, if possible, be explained - we can then understand it, but the comments
          did not warrant being taken as insults to be defended.

          As Firemouse said earlier, maybe it is best to go lightly on the language until
          you are sure what the offending item really means. It may turn out to not be
          offensive after all.

          I think that the majority of the problem posts have begun in the same way - you
          responding in a very aggressive manner to what has been a simple point of view.
          It may be that the aggressiveness is due to your partial knowledge of English
          (although I have to complement you in general on your English (I wish my Polish
          was a fraction as good). If this is the case the various 'nods' from me or
          others should have sufficient for you to have understood that the English had
          been excessively hostile.

          With regards to the 'Polish psyche', it is no diffrent in the contest you speak
          about than any other nationality's that I've known. My mother used to say to me
          'I could kill you, but if anyone else so much as says anything against you I'll
          defend you to the end'. It is not something I agree with (I used to have many
          arguments with my mother about it), but something I understand. The problem here
          is that you have so vociferously criticised anything Anglo-Saxon / American, and
          defended (in my opinion, as stated before, unneseccerily) Poland, that when you
          have been seen to be criticising Poland you have been seen as a 'forum stalker',
          in that you will do nothing on a forum apart from antagonise.

          Regarding you last comments about Poles, and self-criticism vs external
          criticism (and remember that the British are famous for self-criticism), my
          experience with the small band of Poles that I know is not as you describe. I
          find them to be open to both self-criticism and external criticism, and have no
          problems in humourising the matter either. Maybe you are, by nature, less
          humorous than many of the people I have met (not to be taken as an insult, as I
          am quite serious, often to my dislike).

          Lastly, I would try and re-iterate one of Ians many comments; namely that you do
          not represent the Polish people any more than we represent ours (especially so
          now that all of us live in lands not of our birth). We can say that some things
          are typical etc. but cannot purport to represent our people (and I have possibly
          been as guilty as you, when talking about the British).

          To finish, let's lighten up, discuss, debate and joke. Lets also be aware that
          words can offend, so we should also know when to 'shut up', or indeed sometimes
          not post in a particular thread in the first place.
          • waldek1610 Re: small talk and word play vs. serious discussi 17.12.05, 08:04
            Russh,
            I can tell you honestly that you made me reconsider my position on the "english
            banter" on this forum...Now, I realised that since this is the forum for
            foreigners...(in Poland), you guys are entitled to have your discussion club
            where you're allowed to live in you own sub-world, without myself trying to
            censor or question it.

            What I've been doing was infiltrating your forum, and trying to force you do to
            think polish way... But seriously, what do I care if one of you puts Poland
            right after Zimbabwe in in the area of civilizational development...

            Because as you already know poles (at least myself) unlike brits prefer to have
            serious discussions, I was hoping in vain to hear just that...Anyways I
            appreciate your input, because it clearifies a lot of things that would
            otherwise cause more trouble in this forum.

            I would love to lighten up and joke, but before I do so I just had to express
            my true feelings. I'm sure you forgive me for what you call "aggresive
            behaviour", because I belong to the nation which was for decades artificially
            forced to be silent, so I just can't help it but speak out and make up the lost
            time.

    • waldek1610 Re: Ethno-centrism, socio-linguistics and other e 16.12.05, 11:51
      firemouse napisał:

      > And, to my knowledge, people are just tired with your aggression. Oh no, don't
      > write it is opposite. If you really think this is untrue, then why everybody
      > else thinks so?

      Maybe because besides myself, there's few or no other pole visiting this forum?
      Actually, others seem agressive and arrogant to me. They may be doing it
      unknowingly when they push so unrelentlesly their point of view, but it doesn't
      change the fact what they say is offensive.

      You don't think Chochise was nice then whe said to me; "Shut up and pay
      attention" do you? What should I pay attention to? To voices that are
      overwelmingly anglo-saxon and ignorant of polish view? Is that what you
      consider fair?

      > And I will be pleased to see you writing Polish with big "P" in the front.
      > Polish starting with small "p" has _very_ different meaning.

      I think I would not survive in Poland if I didn't listen you your advices...By
      the way it's good that Gazeta.pl doesn't force you to use polish language only.
      That way you would not be able to communicate at all, much less Waldek would be
      so "wspanialomyslny"(gracious) to give you and advice on polish language...

      Yes, I agree with you Firemouse, read your post before you sent it, because
      when you correct person for whom english is a second language, you
      automatically seem patronising and have other issues with me...perheaps you
      don't like what I write more then ....how I write it?
      • firemouse Re: Ethno-centrism, socio-linguistics and other e 16.12.05, 12:31
        waldek1610 napisał:

        > firemouse napisał:
        >
        > > And, to my knowledge, people are just tired with your aggression. Oh no,
        > don't
        > > write it is opposite. If you really think this is untrue, then why everyb
        > ody
        > > else thinks so?
        >
        > Maybe because besides myself, there's few or no other pole visiting this forum?

        Certainly not. We have here a number of Poles, but you are the only pole here.
        smile Now we see if you have any sense of humor.

        > Actually, others seem agressive and arrogant to me. They may be doing it
        > unknowingly when they push so unrelentlesly their point of view, but it doesn't
        >
        > change the fact what they say is offensive.
        >
        > You don't think Chochise was nice then whe said to me; "Shut up and pay
        > attention" do you? What should I pay attention to? To voices that are
        > overwelmingly anglo-saxon and ignorant of polish view? Is that what you
        > consider fair?

        What Chochise did, was a direct output of Third Newton's Rule: Each action
        causes counter-reaction.

        He would not say this would you be nicer to others.

        > > And I will be pleased to see you writing Polish with big "P" in the front
        > .
        > > Polish starting with small "p" has _very_ different meaning.
        >
        > I think I would not survive in Poland if I didn't listen you your advices...

        This is actually complement for me! smile)) Guess why.

        >By
        > the way it's good that Gazeta.pl doesn't force you to use polish language only.
        >
        > That way you would not be able to communicate at all, much less Waldek would be
        >
        > so "wspanialomyslny"(gracious) to give you and advice on polish language...

        Wrong assumption (Złe założenie). Scroll below for more explanation (Przewiń w
        dół, aby dowiedzieć się więcej).

        > Yes, I agree with you Firemouse, read your post before you sent it, because
        > when you correct person for whom english is a second language, you
        > automatically seem patronising and have other issues with me...perheaps you
        > don't like what I write more then ....how I write it?

        OK, here is a quick and shortened version of what I want to say:

        Waldek, I have long experience in killing trolls. I gave you a hand. You can
        take it or not. I welcome more input and comments from you, as far as they come
        in a generally acceptable form. Make friends in discussion. If you choose to
        make foes, don't blame them for attacking you.

        Language issues:

        English is infact my third language and I do not know it very good, but I know
        that nation-related descriptions are written with big letter. The same words
        written with small letter have different meanings, just look in the dictionary
        for differences between Pole and pole, Polish and polish. I am sure everybody
        here understands you, but this was just small remark in funny form. Don't be so
        serious about everything.

        If anybody corrects my English I am glad to see it.

        FM
        • waldek1610 are you done patronizing? 16.12.05, 13:07
          firemouse napisał:

          > We have here a number of Poles, but you are the only pole here.
          > smile Now we see if you have any sense of humor.

          Really, so why I don't see them? Name one besides "Nasza Maggie" of course. She
          is trying to suck up to British so she acts "english"..which I find deplorable.

          > What Chochise did, was a direct output of Third Newton's Rule: Each action
          > causes counter-reaction.

          Unfortunatelly, I was the one responding to her rudness, not vice versa...


          > > > And I will be pleased to see you writing Polish with big "P" in the
          > front
          > > .
          > > > Polish starting with small "p" has _very_ different meaning.
          > >
          > > I think I would not survive in Poland if I didn't listen you your advices
          > ...
          >
          > This is actually complement for me! smile)) Guess why.

          That was sarcastic...but of course you see only what you want to se...


          > Waldek, I have long experience in killing trolls.

          Why don't you "kill" yourself Firemouse than!? Oh, you sound so self-assured
          and patronising.... too bad I don't buy everything you manage to sweat out...

          > I gave you a hand. You can
          > take it or not. I welcome more input and comments from you, as far as they
          come
          > in a generally acceptable form.

          Are you serious, you be so gracious as to allow pole to have an honour to
          listen to your comments? (sarcasm, sorry...I promise I'll supply some food for
          your english vanity a little later, I hope that it will not inconveience you
          too badly)


          Make friends in discussion. If you choose to
          > make foes, don't blame them for attacking you.

          You certainly don't make friends with me coming to Poland, trying to teach pole
          what he should be doing and how. The rpoblem is that I don't care how it's done
          in your country, we have our own well, tested ways. You would not be trying to
          mentor me if you didn't believe that Poland history started when they apply for
          EU membership....

          • firemouse OMG :-) 16.12.05, 13:29
            Waldek, you can't be real. This is so hilarious.

            FM
            • russh Re: OMG :-) 16.12.05, 14:19
              It would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic.

              I think both of us have tried this morning, and I have spent more time on it
              than I can afford.

              I'm now changing my opinion to d) with Ian
              • firemouse Re: OMG :-) 16.12.05, 14:26
                Right, we invested too much time in a lost case.

                FM
                • waldek1610 your (old EU) vanity knows no limits..... 17.12.05, 06:51
                  firemouse napisał:

                  > Right, we invested too much time in a lost case.
                  >
                  > FM

                  And that "lost case" was trying to bully a pole......!? You guys keep amusing
                  me, you either got to be really naive as to believe that you going to come to
                  this forum and tell others (eastern europeans) what they should be doing and
                  thinking.

                  I say EU should be holding classes for old EU members in the community centers
                  in countries such as UK, France or Germany, making each person write on the
                  blackboard following sentence one hundred times; "I'm not better or smarter
                  then a pole, czech or estonian", "I'm not better or smarter then a pole, czech
                  or estonian", "I'm not better or smarter than a pole, czech and estonian"...etc
                  • ianek70 And which part of the EU do you live in...? 17.12.05, 11:58
                    waldek1610 napisał:

                    > I say EU should be holding classes for old EU members in the community
                    centers
                    > in countries such as UK, France or Germany, making each person write on the
                    > blackboard following sentence one hundred times; "I'm not better or smarter
                    > then a pole, czech or estonian"

                    And in America they should have classes where people write 100 times "I'm not
                    better or smarter than people who live in Europe."
                    • waldek1610 you better go back to the blackboard........ 17.12.05, 12:23
                      ianek70 napisał:

                      > waldek1610 napisał:
                      >
                      > > I say EU should be holding classes for old EU members in the community
                      > centers
                      > > in countries such as UK, France or Germany, making each person write on t
                      > he
                      > > blackboard following sentence one hundred times; "I'm not better or smart
                      > er
                      > > then a pole, czech or estonian"
                      >
                      > And in America they should have classes where people write 100 times "I'm not
                      > better or smarter than people who live in Europe."

                      I'm speaking as a pole. Besides if the Iraqi who lived in Britain for over 30
                      years can become Iraq's president...I certainly don't need your permision to
                      discuss my country's politics.
                      • russh Re: you better go back to the blackboard........ 17.12.05, 12:30
                        waldek1610 napisał:

                        >
                        > I'm speaking as a pole.

                        A telegraph pole or a pillar, a stake, a stick; what type of pole are you Waldek.

                        Personally I'd say you were poles apart from other Poles.
                        • waldek1610 Re: you better go back to the blackboard........ 17.12.05, 12:55
                          russh napisał:

                          > waldek1610 napisał:
                          >
                          > >
                          > > I'm speaking as a pole.
                          >
                          > A telegraph pole or a pillar, a stake, a stick; what type of pole are you
                          > Waldek.

                          You know I take it back, I was wrong when I maid degative remarks about EU
                          parliment. After all they don't resort to such as low tactics as pick on the
                          grammatical mistakes that 24 EU countrie's representative make.. I've heard mr.
                          Barrosso and others' english "In action"..and I'm not impressed. Fortunately
                          they have better arguments than the oponent's use of english, it seems though
                          that you don't....

                          • ianek70 Re: you better go back to the blackboard........ 17.12.05, 13:08
                            waldek1610 napisał:

                            > You know I take it back, I was wrong when I maid degative remarks about EU
                            > parliment. After all they don't resort to such as low tactics as pick on the
                            > grammatical mistakes that 24 EU countrie's representative make.. I've heard
                            mr.
                            >
                            > Barrosso and others' english "In action"..and I'm not impressed. Fortunately
                            > they have better arguments than the oponent's use of english, it seems though
                            > that you don't....

                            Poles have told you they're offended when you write "pole" with a small "p",
                            but maybe that's how you write in America.
                            The cultural differences between our continents are fascinating, aren't they?
            • waldek1610 are you speechless? yes, you are...just admit it! 17.12.05, 06:40
              firemouse napisał:

              > Waldek, you can't be real. This is so hilarious.
              >
              > FM


              What, are you speechless?
    • russh Hi Waldek - you're yesterdays pain 17.12.05, 07:47
      Just to tell you that I think the forum has moved on - you're yesterdays 'man'.
      • waldek1610 perheaps, but Tony's is in bigger trouble..at home 17.12.05, 08:12
        Oh, is that right. Isn't that marvlous occasion to celebrate. Let us raise the
        toast to her Majesty......... Queen Jadwiga! Got you!
Pełna wersja