It's maybe not the best idea to annoy the British

[usenetposts]

...ask ex-finance minister Lubinska for details.

why don't Brits open Air-Bus factory in Poland????

[waldek1610]

...There you go! Because Brits are smarter than that, and they would rather
dump on Poles what Poles already have plenty off (food stuffs) rather than
sharing with Poland its hi-tech capability in aero-industry.


Getting rid of the low- or non-advanced technologically investments in Poland
is not ment to annoy anybody, its just pure logical. Your Tosco super-markets
might be needed in Albania, and it might awe perheaps only Albanians...that if
you cut prices to 1/10th....

Don't you think it's highly ironic that the UK food stores open in Poland?
Since everybody knows British foods not to be aspecially appealing and tasty...


usenetposts napisał:

> ...ask ex-finance minister Lubinska for details.

[usenetposts]

> ...There you go! Because Brits are smarter than that, and they would rather
> dump on Poles what Poles already have plenty off (food stuffs) rather than
> sharing with Poland its hi-tech capability in aero-industry.

I don't know why they don't - Why don't you ask Humbert?

Gustav Humbert, that is, not Humbert Humbert. Better make that one clear as I
can imagine the former has a much larger litigation fund than the latter, and
he might be less flattered by the confusion than the latter would be, were he,
indeed, not a fictional character.

Joking apart, the company is 80% controlled by the French, that's where the HQ
is and they are the ones, not us, who have anything "toulouse" (groan) by
setting up in Poland. They already have sites in Spain, so maybe they think one
second-tier country from Europe is enough.

> Getting rid of the low- or non-advanced technologically investments in Poland
> is not ment to annoy anybody, its just pure logical. Your Tosco super-markets
> might be needed in Albania, and it might awe perheaps only Albanians...that
if
> you cut prices to 1/10th....

It's all very well saying that, but if Tesco markets were not successful in
taking the business from the traditional shop, do you suppose that Lubinska
would have said anything? But she did say something, and that something she did
say was of the kind you might expect from Lukashenko, but not from the mouth of
the Finance Minister of a country trying to at least pay reasonable lip service
to being in the EU.

I think the moral of the story is that people are stupid, and that stupidity
doesn't stop anyone from going a few weeks as finance Minister of a country.
Another moral is that it still pays, even within the EU in the twenty-first
cench, to give yourself a snazzy Polish name like "Biedronka" so that you can
look "nasze". If they slapped the company name Jeronimo Martins around, I can
imagine that they would have a little less acceptance, if only on a
subconscious level, but that would be more than enough to play merry havoc with
their bottom line.


> Don't you think it's highly ironic that the UK food stores open in Poland?
> Since everybody knows British foods not to be aspecially appealing and
tasty...

As I have mentioned in this group before, I am actually disappointed by the
lack of original British foods in Tescos here. On the other hand I am sure (as
in literally sure, since I know people in the meat business) that their buyers
are sourcing products here which are sold at higher prices in the UK.

Even British supermarkets which are not here, like Sainsburys (I'd like to take
David Sainsbury and give him a good shake, actually, to see if I couldn't wake
his ideas up a bit - he's like a kind of business slug) are still sourcing meat
products here, except of course the recipes they give ar typically British, so
the sausages they get are less than majority meat anyway, like ours are.

For your information the number of original Tesco markets is in the minority of
their sites portfolio - many more shops they obtained when they bought
the "HIT" network set up in the early nineties by the German Dohle
Handelsgruppe. HIT were the first big markets in Warsaw. Back in 1992 I only
stopped going to Praska Gielda Spozywcza when the HIT on Gorczewska opened,and
I still remember how that Christmas you had to queue in your car for half an
hour in the street before you could get into the carpark. Lisner was the main
and at that time the best herring product, and they were rationing packs so
that everyone got some.

We would still be having a shopping experience like that - which was memorable
but you wouldn't want it every year - to today if it were not for the
investment that has been poured into retail.

If someone doesn't like it, they don't have to go to foreign owned retail
centres. Now that Lubinska has returned to obscurity she can vote with her feet
if she likes, and make a personal boycott of the Galeria in her native Lodz. I
can just see Alexander Otto crying all the way to the bank...

[waldek1610]

usenetposts napisał:

> if Tesco markets were not successful in
> taking the business from the traditional shop, do you suppose that Lubinska
> would have said anything? But she did say something, and that something she
did
>
> say was of the kind you might expect from Lukashenko, but not from the mouth
of
>
> the Finance Minister of a country trying to at least pay reasonable lip
service
>
> to being in the EU.

First; Tosco was succesfull in taking bussiness form traditional shop, for the
same reason why McDonalds is force small plot owners to evict good quality
family reastaurant, and build the place serving articicial foods (McDonalds).
Same deal with Tosco, its not better that "sklepiki sporzywcze"...it just has
more money do spend and outbuy anybody...




> I think the moral of the story is that people are stupid, and that stupidity
> doesn't stop anyone from going a few weeks as finance Minister of a country.
> Another moral is that it still pays, even within the EU in the twenty-first
> cench, to give yourself a snazzy Polish name like "Biedronka" so that you can
> look "nasze". If they slapped the company name Jeronimo Martins around, I can
> imagine that they would have a little less acceptance, if only on a
> subconscious level, but that would be more than enough to play merry havoc
with
>
> their bottom line.

But whos's buying up soccer clubs in UK if not the oligarchs from Russia? Is
that reason to be proud Mr.Smartarse?

> For your information the number of original Tesco markets is in the minority
of
>
> their sites portfolio - many more shops they obtained when they bought
> the "HIT" network set up in the early nineties by the German Dohle
> Handelsgruppe. HIT were the first big markets in Warsaw. Back in 1992 I only
> stopped going to Praska Gielda Spozywcza when the HIT on Gorczewska
opened,and
> I still remember how that Christmas you had to queue in your car for half an
> hour in the street before you could get into the carpark. Lisner was the main
> and at that time the best herring product, and they were rationing packs so
> that everyone got some.

You sound like Brits are bringing prosperity into Poland....In reality (even
kids know that) they "invest" in Poland only to make a profit, if UK was really
helping Polish economy it would let Polish companies sell more foodstuffs in UK
stores....

After few years those polish companies would use the profits to build homegrown
supermarkets in Poland, but you Brits of course are cheap and prey on poor
members of EU....That's why you were trying to take money from hard working
but "barefood" Podlasie farmers and you wanted to "invest it better" by giving
it to British farmers so they can continue to produce weat that is heavly
subsidised anyways by EU....

correction; Barefoot farmers ! not Barefood...

[waldek1610]

Davey,
that's in case you'll try to exploit my typo error, and avoid answering to
tough questions as you usually do...

[usenetposts]

> Davey,
> that's in case you'll try to exploit my typo error, and avoid answering to
> tough questions as you usually do...

That's very disingenuous. Care to give me an example of where I've avoided
any "tough questions", as if you ever set me any?

[waldek1610]

usenetposts napisał:

> > Davey,
> > that's in case you'll try to exploit my typo error, and avoid answering t
> o
> > tough questions as you usually do...
>
> That's very disingenuous. Care to give me an example of where I've avoided
> any "tough questions", as if you ever set me any?

Sure, please answer the post reagarding those Barefoot Podlasie farmers and
heavly sibsidised farmers in UK? Only 3 post up.

forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=29887&w=34568005&a=34644017

[usenetposts]

waldek1610 napisał:

> usenetposts napisał:
>
> > if Tesco markets were not successful in
> > taking the business from the traditional shop, do you suppose that Lubins
> ka
> > would have said anything? But she did say something, and that something s
> he
> did
> >
> > say was of the kind you might expect from Lukashenko, but not from the mo
> uth
> of
> >
> > the Finance Minister of a country trying to at least pay reasonable lip
> service
> >
> > to being in the EU.
>
> First; Tosco was succesfull in taking bussiness form traditional shop, for
the
> same reason why McDonalds is force small plot owners to evict good quality
> family reastaurant, and build the place serving articicial foods (McDonalds).

I'm not arguing that with you, this is the archetypal straw man argument,
Waldek. We were not discussing quality of Tescos, which I am on record of being
critical of and will be again, but I am not Finance Minister of a beneficiary
country, and therefore I am a lot freer to speak on the matter.

I am also at liberty to make pot shots at Macdonalds. Ben Elton, the famous
British stand up comedian, takes hefty pot shots at MacDonalds. The
film "Supersize Me" (which is worth watching if you haven't seen it - it's not
quite as scary as "War of the Worlds" but it should be) takes a massive
broadside shot at MacDonalds, and that's ok. What private individuals like you
and I say about Tescos or MacDonalds or other international corporations is
fine, but when members of the Government start mouthing off against foreign
investments, and picking out certain foreign companies and not others for
public criticism, then they go ultra vires, and deserve to be sacked as the
ignorant professoressa was.

> Same deal with Tosco, its not better that "sklepiki sporzywcze"...it just has
> more money do spend and outbuy anybody...
>

But consumers are getting what they want or they simply wouldn't go there.

Quality local stores are still able to survive.

For your information, I don't have Tescos as my shop of choice. If they did
bother to provide British food and not just pretend to on a couple of shelves,
and if they did have a proper and not just a pretend all night service, then I
expect I would go there more often.

The point is not whether we like Tescos or not, the pointis whether the Finance
minister should be singling out for criticism a company which has at least
believed in this country - it wasn't easy for them to have that belief in this
country - they were in Hungary, the Czech republic and even Slovakia years
before they came to Poland, worried as they were by the draconian bureaucracy,
the unstable tax system, the corruption in the realty sector and a number of
other issues.

Nevertheless, they finally became persuaded to be here. Their presence here
gives rise to a great deal of tax revenues, and they are at the top of the list
of income tax payers in Malopolska, and not tax avoiders, as Lubinska
ignorantly stated.


>
> > I think the moral of the story is that people are stupid, and that stupid
> ity
> > doesn't stop anyone from going a few weeks as finance Minister of a count
> ry.
> > Another moral is that it still pays, even within the EU in the twenty-fir
> st
> > cench, to give yourself a snazzy Polish name like "Biedronka" so that you
> can
> > look "nasze". If they slapped the company name Jeronimo Martins around, I
> can
> > imagine that they would have a little less acceptance, if only on a
> > subconscious level, but that would be more than enough to play merry havo
> c
> with
> >
> > their bottom line.
>
> But whos's buying up soccer clubs in UK if not the oligarchs from Russia? Is
> that reason to be proud Mr.Smartarse?
>

From your abrupt change of subject, I take it you have conceded the point about
Airbus as being a non-sequitur?

As far as Abramovitch buying a club or that American buying a club is
concerned, I have no problem with it whatsoever. The fans may have issues with
it, but what they need to get their ball-shaped brains around is the fact that
these clubs are businesses and can be bought and sold like any other business.
They are no more the owner of the club because they buy the tickets and cheer
the players any more than I can go to Wales and demand a night of passion with
Charlotte Church just because I enjoyed her latest album.

No member of the British Government has criticised or blocked either the rouble
or the dollar millionaire from buying clubs. And they are neither of them EU
citizens, which is all the more reason why other EU countries should be free to
buy and sell even things which are businesses but which we might consider part
of the cultural life of a nation.

> > For your information the number of original Tesco markets is in the minor
> ity
> of
> >
> > their sites portfolio - many more shops they obtained when they bought
> > the "HIT" network set up in the early nineties by the German Dohle
> > Handelsgruppe. HIT were the first big markets in Warsaw. Back in 1992 I o
> nly
> > stopped going to Praska Gielda Spozywcza when the HIT on Gorczewska
> opened,and
> > I still remember how that Christmas you had to queue in your car for half
> an
> > hour in the street before you could get into the carpark. Lisner was the
> main
> > and at that time the best herring product, and they were rationing packs
> so
> > that everyone got some.
>
> You sound like Brits are bringing prosperity into Poland....In reality (even
> kids know that) they "invest" in Poland only to make a profit, if UK was
really
>
> helping Polish economy it would let Polish companies sell more foodstuffs in
UK
>
> stores....

But that's exactly what they do do.

If you ring the export manager of Animex SA and ask him whether they are
selling through any of the supermarket chains of the UK meat for export to the
UK, then in all probability he will tell you not to ask him questions which are
a business secret. Nevertheless, it's pretty much an open secret that that's
where most of their revenue growth is. I cannot go into more detail than that.

Please note that businesses invest in their home countries to make a profit
also, and nevertheless it is business, and not government, which has produced
prosperity. Governments in the absence of private business are unable to
produce prosperity, and are only able to sow poverty and decay.

And another thing - whenever Governments intervene in the private sector, be it
for the best or the worst of reasons, it always turns out the same - there is
always trouble. Whether its an adverse comment from a finance minister or a
grant given to a competitor but not to you which gives that competitor the
power to wage price war and bankrupt you, following which he charges
monopolist's prices, it's always trouble after a Government intervention.

That's why I'm not even sure I'm in support of the SME initiatives by the EU,
even though I'm no more of a fan of the multi-national corporation than you
appear to be. They are the dinosaurs, small businesses are the mammals, to use
an illustration from the Theory of Evolution. We don't need the Government to
play the role of K/T event meteor here, we will survive anyway, as long as they
don't interfere and there is a level playing field.

Read Adam Smith if you don't believe me. He said it all first, but you have to
read eighteent

[thasis]

I would never trust an englishman

[russh]

Why?

[ianek70]

thasis napisał:

> I would never trust an englishman

Which Englishman?

[usenetposts]

thasis napisał:

> I would never trust an englishman

Good show. It'll probably be a non-Englishman who hurts you then.

Fair enough, I say.

[thasis]

All of them.
Remember 1945 and the fat pig Churchill ???

[usenetposts]

I see you subscribe to the view added to school books in the communist era at
the insistence of the soviet propaganda apparatchiks that Churchill was somehow
responsible for Yalta?

Yalta stuck in his throat, he wanted to encourage the Americans to fight on,
but was unable to do so as Roosevelt was unwilling to take further liberties
with the anti-war feeling back in the States. We were indebted up to the
eyeballs to the US as we never had the resources after WWI to go to war in the
first place, and in no position to make decisions they weren't about to
bankroll.

They then gave Marshall Plan money to Germany and France, but not to us, and in
that way once and for all time ensured that we were never gonna be the leading
power in Europe. America like the British very much, but only as long as it's
clear to everyone that the leading Anglo Saxon nation is them now, not us.

I feel sorry for them that they had to stoop to underhanded tactics to prove
that point.

[varsovian]

Re Yalta, Potsdam etc
Churchill should have shouted more, but it would have been to no effect.
Roosevelt was a fool but the only way to have altered anything at all as
regards Poland would have included siding with the Nazis against the Russians.

[russh]

My memory of some reading of the subject also says that Roosevelt was dying, and
not in any condition to negotiate forcfully against Stalin.

There was also no doubt that the fact of the Russians already occupying the
country created up to a point a de-facto situation.

I, probably like most people today, cannot understand the underlying reasons
why, in the end, the winners ended up the losers, and vice-versa.

For most 'common' people at the time, it was probably enough that the war ended.

As you say, the Americans have a lot to answer for.

[ianek70]

russh napisał:

> I, probably like most people today, cannot understand the underlying reasons
> why, in the end, the winners ended up the losers, and vice-versa.
>
> For most 'common' people at the time, it was probably enough that the war
ended

I'd agree with that, although I'd have to ask my grandparents, who were alive
at the time.
But, returning to the original point (i.e. the stupidity of basing stereotypes
on a simplistic interpretation of one man's actions several generations ago)
should we stop trusting Georgians?
After all, Stalin was an arsehole. In my opinion.

[russh]

There's no doubt that stereotyping a whole nation / region is not realistic,
even if it a common thing to do (I have tendencies to do so myself).

Therefore the answer should be no, we shouldn't stop trusting the Georgians
(only the GeorgeWBushians).

Methinks that Stalin was much more than an arsehole. Just ask the 20/30/40
million people he killed (I've read so many different numbers given - who can
know the total).

Cool Georgians (not Carter, that's another Georgia

[ianek70]

russh napisał:

> There's no doubt that stereotyping a whole nation / region is not realistic,
> even if it a common thing to do (I have tendencies to do so myself).
>
> Therefore the answer should be no, we shouldn't stop trusting the Georgians
> (only the GeorgeWBushians).
>
> Methinks that Stalin was much more than an arsehole. Just ask the 20/30/40
> million people he killed (I've read so many different numbers given - who can
> know the total).

So to redress the balance, Stalin was a genocidal neanderthal egomaniac fuckwit
with a big moustache and slightly effeminate uniform (although he did ban
jazz), but the following Georgians were/are OK:
(have to think about this)
Churchill was a fat alcoholic Tory who smelt of cigars and was useless when
there wasn't a war on (but he was an excellent speaker). Cool English people
include:
John Peel, Michelle Marsh, Harry Hill
(there's plenty more)

[missus.c]

and uncool british people? What is this obsession with Jordan and the other
one, Jodie Marsh? It's all about celebrity?
And tha awful x-dresser on celebrity BB - where did HE come from?

Cool brits I like:
Guy Ritchie , Trevor MacDonald (not a brit?), Parky, Robbie Williams (he's
just cheeky), Prince William , Joanna Lumley, Honor Blackman the list drags
on

[usenetposts]

ianek70 napisał:

> russh napisał:
>
> > I, probably like most people today, cannot understand the underlying reas
> ons
> > why, in the end, the winners ended up the losers, and vice-versa.
> >
> > For most 'common' people at the time, it was probably enough that the war
>
> ended
>
> I'd agree with that, although I'd have to ask my grandparents, who were alive
> at the time.
> But, returning to the original point (i.e. the stupidity of basing
stereotypes
> on a simplistic interpretation of one man's actions several generations ago)
> should we stop trusting Georgians?
> After all, Stalin was an arsehole. In my opinion.

That settles it then. No good thing can come out of Georgia. Boycott Coca Cola.

[firemouse]

Hi All, Happy New Year 2006!

Pity I have not enough time to read/write here more often, but I am more busy at
this part of the year. Well, I don't agree with you, Davey. It is nothing to do
with communist way of interpreting the history, but Yalta was a late cry and
only signing what was agreed before. Methink, Churchill has not been present in
Yalta, UK was represented by David Atlee? I could misspell the name.

The important conference was Teheran, where everything was agreed on how Europe
will look after the war. Poland was sold to Soviets by UK even earlier, at the
time when Katyn story was revealed. UK refused to support Poland in its argue
with Soviets about who committed the crime simply because they needed Soviets
fighting with Germans and not sitting into peace talks when German tanks rolled
through the Motherland. Americans were into even more awe with Soviets and have
not engaged into any opposition against them (It was Roosevelt who said that
Stalin was "genuine gentleman"? I can't recall it and have no time to look up).
So when it came to talks with Stalin both Roosevelt and Churchill bend down.
Eastern front was just too important, and what is Poland? The air battle for
Britain was already over. So why support this Poland, who is just a thorn in the
Stalin's eye, let's sell it.

And the Marshall Plan was just a smart investment - better help to rebuild the
European economies, so they will have money to buy from us...

FM

usenetposts napisał:

> I see you subscribe to the view added to school books in the communist era at
> the insistence of the soviet propaganda apparatchiks that Churchill was somehow
>
> responsible for Yalta?
>
> Yalta stuck in his throat, he wanted to encourage the Americans to fight on,
> but was unable to do so as Roosevelt was unwilling to take further liberties
> with the anti-war feeling back in the States. We were indebted up to the
> eyeballs to the US as we never had the resources after WWI to go to war in the
> first place, and in no position to make decisions they weren't about to
> bankroll.
>
> They then gave Marshall Plan money to Germany and France, but not to us, and in
>
> that way once and for all time ensured that we were never gonna be the leading
> power in Europe. America like the British very much, but only as long as it's
> clear to everyone that the leading Anglo Saxon nation is them now, not us.
>
> I feel sorry for them that they had to stoop to underhanded tactics to prove
> that point.
>

[ianek70]

thasis napisał:

> All of them.
> Remember 1945 and the fat pig Churchill ???

I don't trust fat Tories either. Or thin ones.
But I don't remember 1945, and probably neither do you.

[varsovian]

I take it you don't like Nicholas Soames then?

[ianek70]

varsovian napisał:

> I take it you don't like Nicholas Soames then?

I've just googled him so I could sound knowledgeable, and although I couldn't
be arsed going through all the pictures to find a full-body portrait, he
certainly has the face of a right-wing wobble-bottom.
There's an outside chance his mother loves him, but I wouldn't lend him 50p if
he came up to me and said, "Hey pal, I've lost me bus fare. Give us ten bob, it
ain't for cakes, like, honest."

[thasis]

I almost cried reading all these letters about wonderful Churchill and his
countrymen suffering after the war because Americans would not help them.
Their country was almost totaly destroyed, millions died in the concentration
camps and on top of that their country was invaded by their neighbour.
Oh poor englishmen please give more of your BS

New project - Proper Churchill Memorial

[usenetposts]

thasis napisał:

> I almost cried reading all these letters about wonderful Churchill and his
> countrymen suffering after the war because Americans would not help them.
> Their country was almost totaly destroyed, millions died in the concentration
> camps and on top of that their country was invaded by their neighbour.
> Oh poor englishmen please give more of your BS

Had our millions not died in the first war, we would have made a better job of
the second. Had we not held out in the second, for which we have our geography
to thank, I don't know where the Americans would have taken over the western
Front from. In this case, you can be pretty sure you'd be under Soviet rule to
this day, you snivelling, ingrateful, ignorant little prig.

Poland has not made the effort to put right in people's minds the Soviet view
of churchill that they imbibed. They do not understand that they have a debt to
him, as does the rest of Europe and the world.

I am going to set up a fund for a proper Churchill memorial in Poland, and
anyone who wishes to will be allowed to contribute to it.

It's time we put to rest all this nonsense about Churchill stabbing East Europe
in the back.

Stalin has been dead half a century, and some people in this country still
haven't got the guts to put the blame where it was due.

[missus.c]

Whoa Dave, hold your horses and put the emotions to one side!

I would read a lot of Norman Davies before I'd judge the Poles (not ALL Poles)
opinion about Churchill/Yalta.

After all it was during a meeting between the Polish Government (na
obczyznie), the US, GB and Russians - where it had turned out that Churchill
had already MADE the deal with the Russians about European borders.

When it came to setting out borders, the Polish PM (?) spoke about Lvov etc,
whereby the Russians smiled at Churchill and stated to the Poles that there
must be some mistake, as the borders have already been decided during a meeting
in Teheran. This came as a shock to the Poles but allegedly Churchill sat there
and denied nothing.

Sorry to write this so hastily - but this comes from a BBC documentary I saw
maybe a year ago and I distinctly remeber this coming as somewhat of a shock to
me.

[usenetposts]

I don't mind looking into that, but there are also sources which talk about his
sincere attempts to get the Americans to fight on. That he might be taciturn in
face of Soviet power in their presence, I can well understand, and may not mean
what they are saying. If you have any link, I am happy to look into it.

[kylie1]

The British people knew at that time that the war didn't end rightly and Poland
had never had a fair deal in the sense of sovereignty, independence and
freedom (on the basis of "friendship" with Russia). I don't think we can blame
Churchill for this. The debate is still going on but his hands were tied and
the Americans were nowhere to be seen. Like everybody else they wanted to end
the war and get the heck out of there (let's see..., it took them "only" two
years to bring their troops over and get involved...hmmm).Stalin quickly cozied
up with the communist governmnet in POland and the rest is history.
Too bad Ukrainians and Byelorussians became part of Russia.

[kylie1]

>After all it was during a meeting between the Polish Government (na
>obczyznie), the US, GB and Russians - where it had turned out that Churchill
>had already MADE the deal with the Russians about European borders.

What? When did all the three powers talk to the POlish governmnet that was in
exile at that time? They never sat down together. It was Churchill who believed
that Polish people should have the right to choose their own leaders after
victory was won. It was Churchill who supported a group of Polish resistance
leaders who had an office in London. Stalin didn't give a rat's ass about
Polish governmnet (London) let alone asked them for "advice" in regards to
POlish boarders. He already made his own plans and what Poland thought about
them meant d..ck all to him. That's Stalin for you. Churchill did argue
endlessly about restoring the Polish government in exile, but unfortumately
with the lack of Roosevelt's support,Stalin knew very well the UK could do
nothing. Eastern Europe was in the hands of Stalin's USSR, and the only thing
left for Churchill to do was another war that nobody wanted or could even
understand.

[missus.c]

kylie1 napisała:

> >After all it was during a meeting between the Polish Government (na
> >obczyznie), the US, GB and Russians - where it had turned out that Churchi
> ll
> >had already MADE the deal with the Russians about European borders.
>
> What? When did all the three powers talk to the POlish governmnet that was in
> exile at that time? They never sat down together.

They did indeed. I will have to look into this further but I remember this very
well from the doc.

CURZON LINE and Churchill

[missus.c]

It was during a meeting that Mikołajczyk wanted to discuss the border question
with the Russians. This was the case of the CURZON LINE discussed in Teheran.


www.warsawuprising.com/paper/davies1.htm
"Churchill took Mikołajczyk with him to Moscow in early October to resume the
Polish-Soviet talks postponed for two months. In the course of a dramatic
meeting with Molotov, it was revealed that a year earlier at Teheran Churchill
had secretly proposed the Curzon Line as a basis of the future Polish-Soviet
frontier. In other words, all the territorial plans and negotiations throughout
1944, which had poisoned relations with Stalin, and had minimised the chances
of his co-operation during the Rising, had been conducted on false assumptions.
Churchill, shame-facedly admitted his fault, but later turned his rage on the
Polish premier whom he had so inexcusably misled. This must be one of the most
discreditable episodes of Churchill’s career. Mikołajczyk soon resigned; and
the close alliance between the British and Polish Governments ceased to
function."



www.plock.edu.pl/zawidz/gimnazjum/publikacje/historia/teheran.html

more on CL:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curzon_line

[kylie1]

I know about the Curzon line, I thought we were talking about the actual Yalta
meeting, weren't we?
To add to my previous statement, Roosevelt couldn't wait to pack it in fast
enough and go back home. Churchill couldn't do anything because the Russians
and their Army were still all over the place spread out like dog's breakfast
(some 5 million of them). As for the actual meeting at Yalta Poland was not
present.

[missus.c]

No. I am not talking about Yalta at all. I am talking about previous meetings.
The whole shenanigans with the borders and Churchill making the deal behind the
Poles backs, took place in Teheran in seems.

[usenetposts]

missus.c napisała:

> No. I am not talking about Yalta at all. I am talking about previous meetings.
> The whole shenanigans with the borders and Churchill making the deal behind
the
>
> Poles backs, took place in Teheran in seems.

Well that's another good reason to invade Iran, as if their intention to make
nuclear material were not reason enough!

[missus.c]

Go on then! ))))

[ianek70]

usenetposts napisał:

> Well that's another good reason to invade Iran,

And America.

[missus.c]

Let's put Russia in there while we're at it))

[usenetposts]

missus.c napisała:

> Let's put Russia in there while we're at it))

"first we take manhattan..."

:(

[missus.c]

eh...what a shame you mentioned that song, which I like very much but which
reminds me of a friend of mine, who passed away in tragic circumstances whilst
visiting Poland...

[usenetposts]

I'm sorry to hear that.

I'll try not to mention any more songs in the near future.

When I do, I often get the reaction that the song reminds someone of something
tragic, or else people complain that I put a melody in their head which they
cannot then get rid of all day.

[ianek70]

thasis napisał:

> I almost cried reading all these letters about wonderful Churchill and his
> countrymen suffering after the war because Americans would not help them.
> Their country was almost totaly destroyed, millions died in the concentration
> camps and on top of that their country was invaded by their neighbour.
> Oh poor englishmen please give more of your BS

If English people were as obsessed with the past as you are, then maybe their
country would be in the same state as yours is.

[thasis]

So why don't you get the hell out of Poland ???
You don't want to go back to your wonderful country turning slowly into Bombay
and where a shithouse cost a quarter million pounds ???
It was your great Churchill who fought soooo hard on behalf of Poland and when
the war ended he did not even invite Polish troops to the victory parade
because he was afraid of Stalin's reaction.

[thasis]

I forgot to add one more reason for you staying in Poland.
Your average woman looks like a dog and she drinks like a sailor

[russh]

Why do you hate so much?

[ianek70]

thasis napisał:

> Your average woman looks like a dog and she drinks like a sailor

Are you saying Polish women can't drink?

Thesis, get back to reality,

[russh]

it will do you a lot of good.

Maybe, if you live in Poland, you will come to our get-together on Friday, and
we can meet. I'm sure it would be a wonderful experience for us all.

[thasis]

No thank you for your invite but first of all I don't live in Poland and
secondly I would not feel comfortable among the people I dislike so much.
I would rather deal with Germans or even Russians because I know what to expect
from them but Englishmen can praise you one day and the next day he will stab
you in the back

[missus.c]

oh how typical. Unfortunately some people love to stereotype and this way fit
into the stereotype themselves.

"I don't live in Poland but I hate the country I live in too".

Seems you dislike yourself the most.

[ianek70]

missus.c napisała:

> "I don't live in Poland but I hate the country I live in too".
>
> Seems you dislike yourself the most.

Well, if thasis hates himself I'm sure he's got lots of good reasons and who
are we to argue with him?

Raus! Raus!

[ianek70]

thasis napisał:

> So why don't you get the hell out of Poland ???

Why should I? I like it here.

> You don't want to go back to your wonderful country turning slowly into
Bombay
> and where a shithouse cost a quarter million pounds ???

You don't even know what country I'm from, and you've probably never even been
there, so don't try to tell me what it's like.
Go out and visit the real world instead of sitting on your arse moaning about
things that happened 60 years ago and blaming people who weren't even born then.

> It was your great Churchill who fought soooo hard on behalf of Poland

Churchill wasn't mine, and I've already written more than once that I don't
think he was great.
And why should everybody fight for Poland? Even the Polish army is fighting for
America now.

> and when
> the war ended he did not even invite Polish troops to the victory parade
> because he was afraid of Stalin's reaction.

I z tego powodu ja mam się wynosić z Polski?
Twoja argumentacja nie jest zbyt logiczna, chyba o tym wiesz i dlatego piszesz
same sarkastyczne bzdury.

[kylie1]

A little WWII quiz...(hopefully there are not too many French folks here
reading this

Who knows the answer to those questions:

What was the National Army March of France during the second WW?
What were the French tanks famous for?
How did the French Admiral review the fleet?

Any ideas?

[missus.c]

They have done so a lot in the last year. There are many more Polish
restaurants and club nights. There are articles and interest in Polish culture.
And at last - more and more people actually now KNOW where POland is on the
map - all because of the EU and new immigrants.

It's a bit of a shame though, as Polonia seems to be so divided there (in
ondon). There are POles from WWII, then those from after '81 and now there are
the EU immigrants. They seem to not like eachother too much.

And btw. as far as the Bombay insult, I believe that many corner shops are now
stocking Polish goodies in their shops as it is good business sense!
I am not sure about the bigger stores but I wouldn't be surprised if they
caught onto importing some Polish products too. All the better for Polish food
procucers, no?
))

[thasis]

Hey you englishman, you know more about me than I.
I live in America and I love it. I like president Bush my two closest friends
are from Germany and the Ukraine and the only foreigner deserving a monument
in Poland is president Reagan

[russh]

Hi Thasis,

I am very interested in your posts, and you as a person. Would you give a little
information about yourself?

Where did you live in Poland (I assume you are Polish).
How long have you lived in the States, and where do you live?
What do you do for a living?
How much have you seen of the UK?
How many English people do you know?
How old are you?

[missus.c]

Aw he'll never tell you. He'll throw the 'ochrona danych osobowych' babble at
you You must ask questions less precisely

[ianek70]

missus.c napisała:

> Aw he'll never tell you. He'll throw the 'ochrona danych osobowych' babble at
> you You must ask questions less precisely

His age is obvious anyway.

[missus.c]

Well, not neccesarily. This is the net after all. But his frustration is
obvious.

[ianek70]

missus.c napisała:

> Well, not neccesarily. This is the net after all. But his frustration is
> obvious.

Teenage Polonus, got a book about European history for Christmas and finally
finished colouring in all the pictures.

[russh]

He'll never tell anyway. His type (and it's me stereotyping this time) never
have the balls to confront the people they are accusing, are normally unable to
prove their case, and find it hard to reason.

I genuinly feel sorry for them. So much ill-founded hatred bottled up - they
normally take it out on the kids or wife (whom I feel even more sorry for).
Hopefully Thasis takes it out playing some sport.

[missus.c]

Ha! you hit the ball on the head russh. As when you write about them in third
person, they hate that most of all.

[ianek70]

missus.c napisała:

> Ha! you hit the ball on the head russh. As when you write about them in third
> person, they hate that most of all.

They enjoy the attention, they think people take them seriously.

[ianek70]

missus.c napisała:

> And btw. as far as the Bombay insult, I believe that many corner shops are
now
> stocking Polish goodies in their shops as it is good business sense!
> I am not sure about the bigger stores but I wouldn't be surprised if they
> caught onto importing some Polish products too. All the better for Polish
food
> procucers, no?

Great, even more weird exotic vegetables in city grocers
Unfortunately, the most famous weird exotic vegetables Poland has produced are
the giertych and the rydzyk. Not very appetising

[thasis]

You really know me very well.
I have nothing to hide so I can answer your questions
I am originally from Warsaw born and raised about 1 km from Palac Kultury in my
late 40-ies, between wives (if you know what it means)
I've been living in the US for the last 22 years in several cities from
Seattle to Philadelphia.
I am one of the lucky ones who was able to turn my hobby into a business
making me enough money so I don't have to go to work every day and listen to my
stupid boss.
I know UK quite well I've been here already almost 2 months and I had a chance
to visit Manchester, Liverpool, Northampton, Oxford, Brighton and I am staying
with my cousins in London.
This is not my first visit here but all my previous visits were short and my
opinion about English people does not come from my visits. It comes from
reading a history books, talking to older people, watching one sided TV from
Brittain.
There are people living in the US from every country in the world so I know a
few English people too but I am not close with any.
I would rather associate with happy latinos than cold English people.
I hope you got your answers.

[ianek70]

thasis napisał:

> I am originally from Warsaw born and raised about 1 km from Palac Kultury

That explains the arrogance and inflated sense of self-importance.

> I know UK quite well I've been here already almost 2 months

So you're a real expert. Congratulations.

> I hope you got your answers.

I personally don't give a shit, so you should have posted this autobiography as
a reply to a question from someone who does give a shit, rather than simply
choosing a post at random and replying "Look at me, I'm from Warszawka, I've
been to America and read a book about England!"

[russh]

Thanks for your answers Thasis. I must admit some of them surprised me;

In age, we are very similar, and I know exactly what you mean re the 'between
wives' - I hope it works out. Re you being able to turn your hobby into a
business, I can only say you are one lucky guy, as it is the ideal.

I am surprised, you having travelled England fairly extensively, that you hold
the English in such contempt, especially when you say that your opinions are
based upon reading history books. What happened to you whilst you were in
England? Why did meeting ordinary people from the country not change your
opinion? The English people are, I'm sure, like many others; some warm, some
off-hand, some reserved, some extravert and many just 'normal'. It also has its
share of extremists.

I'm sure that while there may be some particular national traits, they (the
people) are not so different from most others, including Americans (maybe
especially Americans).

I have, like you, read many books about WW2. My information seems to be slightly
different to yours, and leads me not to blame the British, or at least to be
understanding of the British in relation to the giving away of Poland, and other
'eastern-European' countries to the Russians.

Notwithstanding our differences in reading, and opinions re the aftermath of the
war, I fail to see how the British as a population, 60 years on, can be so hated
by you. I would have thought that your hate (a very powerful word, but the
only to use after your first comment on this thread) would have been better used
against the Russians and Germans, although even here (especially in relation to
the Germans) the atrocities occurred a long time ago. Time moves on, and should
heal so they say.

I would ask you to get to know some English people well - maybe you will change
your opinion. I would advise you not to stereotype with such strong feeling any
race, especially one with such a diverse cultural history (which makes
stereotyping so much more difficult, if not futile).

I would like to finish by saying that I would welcome an opportunity to discuss
with you the above, but obviously because of the distance this is not possible.
Our only way is to communicate via this forum, and I hope that you continue to
contribute; but please, in a more measured way. No one is going to stab you in
the back, and I am sure that most of us (on the forum) are always open to both
differing opinions and the acquisition of further knowledge. We also have our
comics - many of Ian's posts have me falling about with laughter. Join in, and
enjoy it.

[thasis]

Yes I agree maybe I came on too hard.
When I said Englishmen I meant English politicians.
I am sure there are some wonderful English people too but perhaps I am biased
I know Polish people are not perfect either but when ,for example , I read in
an English newspaper long story about the British scientists and mathematicians
who saved saved a lot of lives by breaking Enigma codes and without even
mentioning the help of Polish underground and mathematicians my blood is boiling
Hope you understand my point of view

[usenetposts]

thasis napisał:

> Yes I agree maybe I came on too hard.
> When I said Englishmen I meant English politicians.
> I am sure there are some wonderful English people too but perhaps I am biased
> I know Polish people are not perfect either but when ,for example , I read in
> an English newspaper long story about the British scientists and
mathematicians
> who saved saved a lot of lives by breaking Enigma codes and without even
> mentioning the help of Polish underground and mathematicians my blood is
boilin
> g
> Hope you understand my point of view

Yep. It's the way I see when I watch a film that tells us the Americans did it
all.

Or the way the villain in Hollywood films always has a British accent.

[russh]

Hi Thasis,

Good on you!

Unfortunately the media, especially the scandal papers, are not too fond of the
truth sometimes, and are very good at stirring up nationalistic feelings. As
Dave says in his post, it can affect the British in the same way.

Anyway, take a look at what the BBC say -

www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/enigma_02.shtml and hopefully it will
restore your faith in us a little.

Keep on the forum, fresh blood is always wanted!

[kylie1]

No one knows?
OK. I knew you wouldn't. I knew those jokes for some time.

> What was the National Army March of France during the second WW?

HANDS STRAIGHT UP IN THE AIR.

> What were the French tanks famous for?

THEY ARE OUTFITTED IN REVERSE.

> How did the French Admiral review the fleet?

THROUGH A GLASS BOTTOM BOAT.

I hope I am not offending any French here. These have been around for some time.