by 2025 further decline of the Western Europe?

08.01.06, 08:03
I say to all Brits and other Western Europeans; "Enjoy times of prosperity
and realtive international stature...while you can, because you're going to
loose a lot of it to Eastern Europe"

Don't you think that the citizens of the "Old" EU still like to flatter
themselves by thinking they are the better and real half of Europe in every
ways?

But soon those artificialy imposed differences between east and west going to
totally disapear, which is a good thing! Anyways Brits, French and Belgians
should thank Russians and Germans for setting Poland back by distroying it
in the WWII, which in the way helped west to look more advanced. Anyways as
they say in Poland; "co sie odwlecze to nie uciecze!" Look it up in your
dictionary mr.Davey you might need to use it more now.
    • waldek1610 some truths are too painfull & better be ignored?? 09.01.06, 08:06
      Is western European dream about superiority about to burst, or will Belgians,
      French and Brits need to be hit by raising Eastern Europe's power on their
      faces to realise they are not so good, nor they were as good as they thought?
      • usenetposts Re: some truths are too painfull & better be igno 09.01.06, 11:22
        Nobody minds East Europe increasing in prosperity. It's what we are all working
        for.

        Far better other Europeans.
        • waldek1610 Re: some truths are too painfull & better be igno 09.01.06, 12:21
          usenetposts napisał:

          > Nobody minds East Europe increasing in prosperity. It's what we are all
          > working for.

          Oh, that's really good!....now you going to claim have maid Eastern Europe
          prosperous as well? Yeah, Tonny...was working really hard at the last EU summit
          to keep British rabate..."so they can spend 0.10 % of it "investing" on english
          schools in Poland....Sure, only English know how to spend EU money better...IN
          BRITTAIN that is!

          Now seriously; according to you, Do you believe that Old EU is chipping in to
          build highways in Poland in order to make it easier for polish companies to
          ship good westward? Or do you think EU is building roads in Poland to make it
          easier to dump more of their "nadwyzka" products that the Old EU member
          countries can't sell elsewhere?
          • ianek70 Re: some truths are too painfull & better be igno 09.01.06, 12:52
            waldek1610 napisał:

            > Now seriously; according to you, Do you believe that Old EU is chipping in to
            > build highways in Poland in order to make it easier for polish companies to
            > ship good westward? Or do you think EU is building roads in Poland to make it
            > easier to dump more of their "nadwyzka" products that the Old EU member
            > countries can't sell elsewhere?

            Chłopie, czy byłeś ostatnio w Polsce? Czy widziałeś, w jakim tempie buduje się
            autostrady czy jakiekolwiek porządne drogi? W żadnym.
            Za kasę zachodnio-europejskich podatników powstają tu w przedmiejściach tunele
            i mosty, naprawiają stare drogi.
            Bezrobocie waha się na poziomie 18%, sprzęt medyczny finansuje WOŚP a władze w
            całym kraju dalej marnują w chuj forsy na nowe chodniki, które zreszta są o
            wiele lepsze, niż w Europie zachodniej, a po których mogą dumnie i wygodnie
            łazić bezrobotni.
            • waldek1610 Re: some truths are too painfull & better be igno 09.01.06, 12:58
              Oczywiscie, bylo byc calkiem dostatnio w Polsce gdyby on nie byla zmuszona
              kupowac astronomicznie dorgiej zywnosci od anglikow, belgow i innych
              beneluksow...Bo kto dalby Polsce zarobic na tym co ma pod dostatkie; produktow
              zywnosciowych, maszyn, itd. Na pewno znalazlo by sie dostatecznie duzo funduszy
              w budrzecie na zbudowanie autostrady do Madrytu, ale ze zachod woli nam wciskac
              swoja nadwyzke, to juz inna sprawa.
              • ianek70 Re: some truths are too painfull & better be igno 09.01.06, 13:28
                waldek1610 napisał:

                > Oczywiscie, bylo byc calkiem dostatnio w Polsce gdyby on nie byla zmuszona
                > kupowac astronomicznie dorgiej zywnosci od anglikow, belgow i innych
                > beneluksow...

                Czyli jednak nie byłeś ostatnio w Polsce.
                Nikt, Waldku, nie jest zmuszony kupować nic. Teraz każdy może robic zakupy w
                hipermarketach, głównie francuskich, ci leniwsi tam kupują (bo i w Polsce są
                lenie, nie każdy jest wąsatym bohaterem). Przecież towar (jak często bywa w
                przypadku takiej tandety) jest tani.

                > Bo kto dalby Polsce zarobic na tym co ma pod dostatkie; produktow
                > zywnosciowych, maszyn, itd.

                Polskie produkty żywnościowe są drogie (chociaż dobrej jakości) z powodów
                dobrze znanych każdemu, kto był choćby raz w ciągu ostatnich 20 lat na wsi
                polskiej.

                > Na pewno znalazlo by sie dostatecznie duzo funduszy
                > w budrzecie na zbudowanie autostrady do Madrytu, ale ze zachod woli nam
                wciskac
                >
                > swoja nadwyzke, to juz inna sprawa.

                "Zachód" piszesz? "Nam"?
                Czyli mieszkasz kajś na wschodnim wybrzeżu? W Nowym Jorku?
                Jak tam pogoda?
            • usenetposts Re: some truths are too painfull & better be igno 09.01.06, 15:58
              ianek70 napisał:


              > Chłopie, czy byłeś ostatnio w Polsce? Czy widziałeś, w jakim tempie buduje
              się
              > autostrady czy jakiekolwiek porządne drogi? W żadnym.
              > Za kasę zachodnio-europejskich podatników powstają tu w przedmiejściach
              tunele
              > i mosty, naprawiają stare drogi.
              > Bezrobocie waha się na poziomie 18%, sprzęt medyczny finansuje WOŚP a władze
              w
              > całym kraju dalej marnują w chuj forsy na nowe chodniki, które zreszta są o
              > wiele lepsze, niż w Europie zachodniej, a po których mogą dumnie i wygodnie
              > łazić bezrobotni.

              Two things.

              One is, just because people are unemployed on paper, that doesn't make them
              unemployed REALLY here in our Polish reality show.

              I've seen people who've believed the unemployment statistics and on that basis
              have built businesses here, only ending up with serious egg on face and serious
              red on wyciąg bankowy.

              The fact is that the proportion of the economy that is grey has a very large
              overlap with these reported "unemployed" people.

              The reason is that for such a pittance it's not worth having any dobbing
              systems to catch out what we would call fraudulent claimers.

              The second thing is that I think you are being a bit negative about the road
              building programme. It may be behind schedule, but haven't you noticed the big
              improvements made in places like the Nowy Tomysl to Wrzesnia stretch of the A2,
              the fact that you have now uninterrupted motorway from Wroclaw to Krakow on the
              A4, the new south Torun by-pass on the A10, the Sochaczew bypass, to name but 4
              of them?
              • ianek70 Re: some truths are too painfull & better be igno 09.01.06, 16:44
                usenetposts napisał:

                > Two things.
                >
                > One is, just because people are unemployed on paper, that doesn't make them
                > unemployed REALLY here in our Polish reality show.

                Of course not. There's always a huge grey area - some folk working while
                registered as unemployed, others officially, legally employed but earning more
                or less nothing. Been there, seen it, done it, moaned about it.
                But there is some terrible poverty in PL, and scrounging money off other
                countries to build nice pavements isn't going to feed people. Unless they build
                chocolate or macaroni pavements, but even that would be a short-term solution.

                > The second thing is that I think you are being a bit negative about the road
                > building programme. It may be behind schedule, but haven't you noticed the
                big
                > improvements made in places like the Nowy Tomysl to Wrzesnia stretch of the
                A2,
                >
                > the fact that you have now uninterrupted motorway from Wroclaw to Krakow on
                the
                >
                > A4, the new south Torun by-pass on the A10, the Sochaczew bypass, to name but
                4
                >
                > of them?

                No, I haven't noticed any of these, because I can't afford a car sad
                And I'm still waiting for them to decide when and where to start building the
                road to Katowice airport, now that they've apparently spent all the money they
                were given to do it.
                I have however seen lots of suburban and city centre bridges, tunnels and
                underpasses (also the occasional opera house) with big signs beside them saying
                that they are 75% financed by the EU.
                These are mostly useful and worthwhile projects. I was just disagreeing with
                Waldo that they're designed to help western countries dump cheap goods in
                Poland. This should be obvious because a) it's completely illogical and b)
                Waldo said it.
                • russh Re: some truths are too painfull & better be igno 09.01.06, 17:15
                  ianek70 napisał:

                  > usenetposts napisał:
                  >
                  > > Two things.
                  > >
                  > > One is, just because people are unemployed on paper, that doesn't make th
                  > em
                  > > unemployed REALLY here in our Polish reality show.
                  >
                  > Of course not. There's always a huge grey area - some folk working while
                  > registered as unemployed, others officially, legally employed but earning more
                  > or less nothing. Been there, seen it, done it, moaned about it.
                  > But there is some terrible poverty in PL,

                  True. The black-market economy is obviously high - it always is where incomes
                  are low and taxation is relatively high (and the lower earnings limit here is
                  laughable). Re poverty, there is also a big difference between the major cities,
                  especially Warsaw, and the country. Even near to Warsaw, there are a lot of
                  country folk who are living on next to nothing, are cutting down nearby trees
                  (not their own) to heat their homes (I know because one fell on top of my car as
                  I was passing by some time ago), and really do not know where the next meal will
                  come from if not from the cow that they have used for milk until now.

                  The fact is that the only way their lot will improve is a substantial growth in
                  the economy, helped by major investment in infrastructure. This is where the EU
                  can and must help. Once the better infrastructure is in place, or at least
                  significantly improved, inwards investment will flow at much greater levels,
                  provided that the levels of bureaucracy and corruption are reduced, and the
                  legal and tax systems are made more efficient. Hopefully the inwards investment
                  will be more than retailing, and will add much more to the supply side as well
                  as the demand side.

                  More GDP should mean less poverty. Lots more GDP should mean prosperity. If it
                  doesn't, then it is Poland's fault, not the EU's. Simple.


                  and scrounging money off other
                  > countries to build nice pavements isn't going to feed people. Unless they build
                  >
                  > chocolate or macaroni pavements, but even that would be a short-term solution.
                  >
                  > > The second thing is that I think you are being a bit negative about the r
                  > oad
                  > > building programme. It may be behind schedule, but haven't you noticed th
                  > e
                  > big
                  > > improvements made in places like the Nowy Tomysl to Wrzesnia stretch of t
                  > he
                  > A2,
                  > >
                  > > the fact that you have now uninterrupted motorway from Wroclaw to Krakow
                  > on
                  > the
                  > >
                  > > A4, the new south Torun by-pass on the A10, the Sochaczew bypass, to name
                  > but
                  > 4
                  > >
                  > > of them?
                  >
                  > No, I haven't noticed any of these, because I can't afford a car sad
                  > And I'm still waiting for them to decide when and where to start building the
                  > road to Katowice airport, now that they've apparently spent all the money they
                  > were given to do it.
                  > I have however seen lots of suburban and city centre bridges, tunnels and
                  > underpasses (also the occasional opera house) with big signs beside them saying
                  >
                  > that they are 75% financed by the EU.
                  > These are mostly useful and worthwhile projects. I was just disagreeing with
                  > Waldo that they're designed to help western countries dump cheap goods in
                  > Poland. This should be obvious because a) it's completely illogical and b)
                  > Waldo said it.
          • usenetposts Re: some truths are too painfull & better be igno 09.01.06, 15:40
            waldek1610 napisał:

            > usenetposts napisał:
            >
            > > Nobody minds East Europe increasing in prosperity. It's what we are all
            > > working for.
            >
            > Oh, that's really good!....now you going to claim have maid Eastern Europe
            > prosperous as well? Yeah, Tonny...was working really hard at the last EU
            summit
            >
            > to keep British rabate..."so they can spend 0.10 % of it "investing" on
            english
            >
            > schools in Poland....Sure, only English know how to spend EU money
            better...IN
            > BRITTAIN that is!
            >
            > Now seriously; according to you, Do you believe that Old EU is chipping in to
            > build highways in Poland in order to make it easier for polish companies to
            > ship good westward? Or do you think EU is building roads in Poland to make it
            > easier to dump more of their "nadwyzka" products that the Old EU member
            > countries can't sell elsewhere?
            >

            Er, no. I think we are buying the roads as the country belongs to us, now, just
            as we belong to you by the way, and we would prefer nice roads in our Union to
            not nice ones.
    • russh When is Waldek going to do his bit for Poland? 09.01.06, 14:09
      Thank God Waldek that the majority of Polish and other Europeans are not like you.

      They live in the continent, provide much of its tax income, most of its culture,
      and although get involved in the inevitable regional squabbles, generally, I
      believe, accept that we all have to get on with things in order to have some
      future joint prosperity.

      You on the other hand, are a renegade, having deserted your country and
      continent. Yet you are continually trying to (wrongly) assess and judge its
      people. The EU will, as has been proved with Spain and Ireland, give significant
      improvements in prosperity to those regions that can efficiently use its funds,
      and very little to those who cannot (e.g. Italy). The recent British effort,
      accept it or not, agree with it or not, has been / is to try and develop a
      future for Europe that can cope with competitors such as China and India. Not
      just to protect, in vain, its historical power, as you would have it. The future
      is together, at least in trade. It is the only way to compete against the giants.

      It is not just about regional power, it is about the creation of joint
      prosperity for as many of its citizens as possible.
      • ianek70 Waldo's doing his bit 09.01.06, 14:37
        russh napisał:

        > Thank God Waldek that the majority of Polish and other Europeans are not like
        y
        > ou.
        >
        > They live in the continent, provide much of its tax income, most of its
        culture
        > ,
        > and although get involved in the inevitable regional squabbles, generally, I
        > believe, accept that we all have to get on with things in order to have some
        > future joint prosperity.
        >
        > You on the other hand, are a renegade

        I don't think "renegade" is the right word.
        Millions of Poles have emigrated for many different reasons. Some assimilate
        into the culture of their new homeland, some don't. Depends on their situation
        and personality.
        I know 2nd generation expatriate US Scots who try to be more Scottish than folk
        in Scotland, but can't understand a word people say when they come "back" to
        Glasgow. And have you seen "Goodness Gracious Me" where they ridicule Indians
        who are more British than the Brits? But some try too hard, some don't try hard
        enough. Most people somehow get by. There are Brits who spend years renovating
        their chateaus in the French countryside but don't try to learn French, Poles
        who've spent years in London but can't speak English.
        But "renegade" isn't the right word. For Americans it suggests cowboy hats, big
        redneck cigars and enormous-assed motorbikes with lots of mirrors.
        Waldo's helping Europe not by shooting our sheriffs, but by staying away.
        • russh Re: Waldo's doing his bit 09.01.06, 15:01
          ianek70 napisał:

          > russh napisał:
          >
          > > Thank God Waldek that the majority of Polish and other Europeans are not
          > like
          > y
          > > ou.
          > >
          > > They live in the continent, provide much of its tax income, most of its
          > culture
          > > ,
          > > and although get involved in the inevitable regional squabbles, generally
          > , I
          > > believe, accept that we all have to get on with things in order to have s
          > ome
          > > future joint prosperity.
          > >
          > > You on the other hand, are a renegade
          >
          > I don't think "renegade" is the right word.
          > Millions of Poles have emigrated for many different reasons. Some assimilate
          > into the culture of their new homeland, some don't. Depends on their situation
          > and personality.
          > I know 2nd generation expatriate US Scots who try to be more Scottish than folk
          >
          > in Scotland, but can't understand a word people say when they come "back" to
          > Glasgow. And have you seen "Goodness Gracious Me" where they ridicule Indians
          > who are more British than the Brits? But some try too hard, some don't try hard
          >
          > enough. Most people somehow get by. There are Brits who spend years renovating
          >
          > their chateaus in the French countryside but don't try to learn French, Poles
          > who've spent years in London but can't speak English.

          And me who has been here for more than a year, and can't speak more than a few
          words of Polish! I am ashamed of it though.

          > But "renegade" isn't the right word. For Americans it suggests cowboy hats, big
          >
          > redneck cigars and enormous-assed motorbikes with lots of mirrors.

          Renegade has a few meanings, but accept your point, especially in view of the
          probable American connotation. Would have been best put as as a reneger - he has
          reneged on Europe (turned his back on, for whatever reason), but still feels it
          is his Poland, and that he is representative of it (which we all know he is not).

          > Waldo's helping Europe not by shooting our sheriffs, but by staying away.
          Totally agreed - well put.


      • usenetposts Re: When is Waldek going to do his bit for Poland 09.01.06, 16:02
        russh napisał:

        > Thank God Waldek that the majority of Polish and other Europeans are not like
        y
        > ou.
        >
        > They live in the continent, provide much of its tax income, most of its
        culture
        > ,
        > and although get involved in the inevitable regional squabbles, generally, I
        > believe, accept that we all have to get on with things in order to have some
        > future joint prosperity.
        >
        > You on the other hand, are a renegade, having deserted your country and
        > continent. Yet you are continually trying to (wrongly) assess and judge its
        > people. The EU will, as has been proved with Spain and Ireland, give
        significan
        > t
        > improvements in prosperity to those regions that can efficiently use its
        funds,
        > and very little to those who cannot (e.g. Italy). The recent British effort,
        > accept it or not, agree with it or not, has been / is to try and develop a
        > future for Europe that can cope with competitors such as China and India. Not
        > just to protect, in vain, its historical power, as you would have it. The
        futur
        > e
        > is together, at least in trade. It is the only way to compete against the
        giant
        > s.
        >
        > It is not just about regional power, it is about the creation of joint
        > prosperity for as many of its citizens as possible.

        When they kick his sorry ass out of America for thinking that his painting is
        Cubism and suspecting a Havana connexion, then he'll be back here enjoying all
        the luxuries our taxes have paid for.
        • russh Re: When is Waldek going to do his bit for Poland 09.01.06, 16:32
          I don't think they'll accept him back. He was in the job lot that they sent to
          the USA back in the early 90s. Times have moved on, and so has Poland.
          • waldek1610 yeah, you care about Poland as much as....... 12.01.06, 09:57
            ...as McDonalds Corporation about its employees standard of living....They
            aspecially are concerned about how to keep it "low" and keep them comming back..
            • russh Re: yeah, you care about Poland as much as....... 12.01.06, 10:42
              waldek1610 napisał:

              > ...as McDonalds Corporation about its employees standard of living....They
              > aspecially are concerned about how to keep it "low" and keep them comming back.
              > .

              You can always come back, get into politics, and run for President - you can
              then change things instead of just talking about them. I'm sure your
              ex-countrymen would love to have you back with all of your positive, innovative
              thinking.
        • waldek1610 I must have hurt Davey's feelings.... 12.01.06, 09:53
          What "luxuries" (in Poland) are you talking about? There's as much luxury in
          Poland as lush vegetation in Arizona.....Middle class in Poland is considered a
          family with a car and rented apartment where each person has his or her own
          room....

          Majority of polish folks share small apartments often 2-3 people per room and
          one job per family...
          • russh Re: I must have hurt Davey's feelings.... 12.01.06, 10:44
            I'd suggest you come back and find out what the current position is.
          • missus.c you what? 12.01.06, 11:27
            waldek1610 napisał:

            > What "luxuries" (in Poland) are you talking about? There's as much luxury in
            > Poland as lush vegetation in Arizona.....Middle class in Poland is considered
            a
            >
            > family with a car and rented apartment where each person has his or her own
            > room....
            >
            > Majority of polish folks share small apartments often 2-3 people per room and
            > one job per family...
            >
            >
            >
            Where did you get this information and statistics from? I'd like to see.

            Looks like the last time you where in Poland was when, 1984?


          • brutt Re: I must have hurt Davey's feelings.... 14.01.06, 02:03
            In fact, forests cover 75% of Arizona . Only the southern part is desert.
            Waldek, I have been reading your posts here for a while and I noticed that you
            like to use common stereotypes and cliches. Please stop. Also, please speak for
            yourself and not the whole Polish nation. For certain, you are not expressing my
            points of view. Speak /write only for yourself.

            • waldek1610 Are your eyes shut, or you pretend not to see it? 14.01.06, 06:31
              Brutt,
              I'm a Pole and as such have a right to say what I think as such. So when I make
              any statement about Poland its my personal opinion of course, but as you
              propably know I was not raised in vacum and because of my patriotic upbringing
              I must share views with portion of Polands population.

              If I think that Poland is underestimated in the Old EU countries it is a fact,
              not because I say so but because my eyes not shut and I see how others treat
              Poland. I'm sure you read foreign as well as polish papers, so dont pretend you
              don't know what I am talking about.
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