The Euro +/-

17.01.06, 13:51
Since we constantly discuss the EU heresmile I just wanted to know a few things
from your POV.

- what are the 'for' and 'against' in Poland intorducing the Euro?

- why are the British so reluctant to introduce it?

Many countries which have thus far introduced it, are non too happy. This is
the opinion of many of my colleagues. I hear the Italians are already
planning a revolutionsmile



    • ianek70 Re: The Euro +/- 17.01.06, 14:15
      missus.c napisała:

      > Since we constantly discuss the EU heresmile I just wanted to know a few things
      > from your POV.
      >
      > - what are the 'for' and 'against' in Poland intorducing the Euro?
      >
      > - why are the British so reluctant to introduce it?
      >
      > Many countries which have thus far introduced it, are non too happy. This is
      > the opinion of many of my colleagues. I hear the Italians are already
      > planning a revolutionsmile

      I think the thing which most annoys people is the fact that they weren't
      consulted about it (except in Sweden, where they rejected it), and nobody
      bothered explaining it.
      It seems that the Brits who are against it have more or less the same arguments
      as the Poles who are against it (loss of sovereignty, foreign interference,
      tradition, what's the point of it anyway), whether these are rational or not.
      • speer Re: The Euro +/- 17.01.06, 21:40
        Ppl are stupid. There`s no point to discuss with them the Euro. Gowernemmt of
        Sweden should just make a fact: here is the EURO.
        • russh Re: The Euro +/- 17.01.06, 22:01
          speer napisał:

          > Ppl are stupid. There`s no point to discuss with them the Euro. Gowernemmt of
          > Sweden should just make a fact: here is the EURO.

          and here are we, hopefully distant from it.

          It's a complex discussion, that merits more than 'here it is or otherwise'. I've
          lived in a country that introduced the Euro, and seen the inevitable effects.
          Unless there can be more harmonisation on several economic issues, then it
          cannot work effectively. It has so far done far more harm than good to the
          Eurozone countries, and I forsee more problems ahead.
          • missus.c Re: The Euro +/- 18.01.06, 00:08
            russh napisał:

            It has so far done far more harm than good to the
            > Eurozone countries, and I forsee more problems ahead.

            What kind? The thing I often see is simply that prices have really gone up and
            many tourist restorts seem to be loosing out.

            I wonder if there will be a referendum in Poland?
            • russh Re: The Euro +/- 18.01.06, 07:35
              missus.c napisała:

              > russh napisał:
              >
              > It has so far done far more harm than good to the
              > > Eurozone countries, and I forsee more problems ahead.
              >
              > What kind? The thing I often see is simply that prices have really gone up and
              > many tourist restorts seem to be loosing out.

              I'm not an economist, but it seems logical that to have many countries using the
              same currency without a basically unified economic and political system and
              agenda will not work, as there is too much diversity.

              It will lead to less growth, with all of the associated problems - greater
              unemployment etc, and more disparity between its states.


              >
              > I wonder if there will be a referendum in Poland?

              The fact that so many countries have joined without a referendum shows just how
              undemocratic our democratic political systems really are. They should, but will
              they?

        • ianek70 Re: The Euro +/- 18.01.06, 12:12
          speer napisał:

          > Ppl are stupid. There`s no point to discuss with them the Euro. Gowernemmt of
          > Sweden should just make a fact: here is the EURO.

          Sweden is a democracy, and one of the most open and participatory societies in
          the world. People are used to being informed and consulted, so any government
          that simply imposed such a huge change would be kicked out at the next election.
          That's normal in democracies - Labour in the UK lost a lot of support because
          they fought a war most people didn't want.
          • usenetposts Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 01:48
            ianek70 napisał:

            > speer napisał:
            >
            > > Ppl are stupid. There`s no point to discuss with them the Euro. Gowernemm
            > t of
            > > Sweden should just make a fact: here is the EURO.
            >
            > Sweden is a democracy, and one of the most open and participatory societies
            in
            > the world. People are used to being informed and consulted, so any government
            > that simply imposed such a huge change would be kicked out at the next
            election
            > .
            > That's normal in democracies - Labour in the UK lost a lot of support because
            > they fought a war most people didn't want.

            But oddly enough, Tony is still there. Almost minus 5 year old boy, but still
            there.

            Maybe most people did want it after all, whatever they told the Grauniad
            pollsters in the high street.
            • ianek70 Re: The Euro +/- 24.01.06, 16:09
              usenetposts napisał:

              > ianek70 napisał:
              > > That's normal in democracies - Labour in the UK lost a lot of support bec
              > ause
              > > they fought a war most people didn't want.
              >
              > But oddly enough, Tony is still there. Almost minus 5 year old boy, but still
              > there.
              >
              > Maybe most people did want it after all, whatever they told the Grauniad
              > pollsters in the high street.

              Gagging for it, were they?
              Most didn't want it, it just wasn't so high up on their list of priorities that
              they'd start voting Lib Dem.
              It's a single-issue thang. Most of Scotland is theoretically violently opposed
              to the regimental reforms (personally I don't care) but practically none of
              them vote for the Moustachioed Retired Majors Party that's sprung up to tap
              this supposedly bottomless well of self-righteous patriotic anger.
    • ejmarkow Re: The Euro +/- 18.01.06, 10:30
      I think in Poland, as in any other country belonging to the EU, an official
      referendum should be held and the population as a whole should decide whether
      or not to introduce the Euro as it's official currency, and it shouldn't be
      solely the governments decision to do so. For what I've seen the Euro has only
      negative effects in all countries, with prices being much higher and the cost
      of living increasing. Additionally, I think the same thing has already happened
      to Poland after joining the EU. Prices and the cost of living have gone up, and
      buying power has decreased tremendously. This 22% vat on products in Poland was
      a condition implemented upon Poland by the EU to make it's products prices more
      in equilibrium with prices in the West. Imagine the disastorous effect on
      Western countries that Polish exports would have had if this vat wasn't
      introduced? There was way too much price arbitrage prior to the EU, and this
      was frightening the hell out of the Western countries.

      Eugene


      Eugene
      • russh Re: The Euro +/- 18.01.06, 10:59
        EJ, the VAT in Poland at 22% has no effect on the prices charged for Polish
        products in other EEC countries, as VAT is effectively 0% on inter-country
        trade. The only effect that it has is the slightly higher input prices it causes
        to companies who export (remembering that they to can can back VAT on purchases).
        • ejmarkow Re: The Euro +/- 18.01.06, 20:06
          Russh,

          Here is what a particular source (www.polandembassy.org/Business/p5-
          1.htm) says about VAT:

          VAT is charged on sales and supplies of goods ( raw materials, supplies, goods
          for resale, products and fixed assets) and services by registered businesses in
          Poland, and on the import and export of goods and services INTO and OUT of
          Poland.

          There are four basic rates of VAT; 22%, 7%, 3% and 0% plus certain other
          transitional rates. The general rate of VAT is 22%.

          Law provides for specific exemptions from VAT for certain goods and services,
          including banking and brokerage services.

          Tax is not deductible on purchases related to sales of goods and services
          exempt from VAT. Businesses with total annual sales for the fiscal year of at
          least 10,000 EUR of taxable goods and services are obliged to register for and
          charge VAT. Businesses with total annual sales for the fiscal year of less than
          10,000 EUR ( 40900 PLN in 2003) are not required to register for VAT unless
          their sales in the fiscal year will not exceed the registration threshold.

          The application to register a company for VAT must be submitted to the
          appropriate Tax Office before any VAT-able activities are performed.

          As of July 2001, foreign entities that are not registered for Polish VAT can
          also apply for a direct refund of VAT incurred on purchases made in Poland
          under certain conditions.

          Foreign tourists are eligible for VAT reimbursement for purchases exceeding EUR
          200 (incl. VAT) only if customs authorities confirm that the goods have left
          the Polish territory, not later than on the last day of the third month
          following the month the goods were purchased in.


          Eugene
          Siemiechów, Poland
          • russh Re: The Euro +/- 18.01.06, 22:19
            The source is correct, but you also need to know that what I said is correct as
            well. Intra-community VAT between vat registered companies within the EU is
            effectively VAT exempt (the nominal rate is the rate of the output country, but
            is not physically charged).

            Therefore I stand by what I said previously relating to the effects of VAT on
            Polish exports to other EU countries.
            • usenetposts Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 01:46
              russh napisał:

              > The source is correct, but you also need to know that what I said is correct
              as
              > well. Intra-community VAT between vat registered companies within the EU is
              > effectively VAT exempt (the nominal rate is the rate of the output country,
              but
              > is not physically charged).
              >
              > Therefore I stand by what I said previously relating to the effects of VAT on
              > Polish exports to other EU countries.

              Subject to one or two leetle surprises that the Polish system throws up, in
              defiance of the Sixth Directive they signed up to with their fingers crossed
              behind their backs.

              One of these is that you have to get a proof that the goods have left Poland,
              and they are sticklers over formality there. They want a formal document,
              whereas logic might be good enough for most west European VAT offices.

              Another is that when you get a prepayment for goods you are going to export,
              because you haven't yet got proof of export, you have to hand over the VAT on
              your prepayment. You get it back later when the goods go and you show your
              document, but in the meantime, you've got a cash-flow issue.

              Those are two things worth knowing in that area, straight out of Uncle Davey's
              case book.
              • russh Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 05:55
                > One of these is that you have to get a proof that the goods have left Poland,
                > and they are sticklers over formality there. They want a formal document,
                > whereas logic might be good enough for most west European VAT offices.

                Italy is the same.

                I have a company who phoned me yesterday asking if I have the CMR records for a
                delivery made in 2001 to the UK. Why - the Italian customs are asking for it as
                proof that the delivery actually took place. They assume that everything
                transaction is money laundering.

                The order came from a well-known UK Plc retailer (now bankrupt, so it is
                impossible to ask them for their POD) who paid for the goods regularly via a
                bank transfer. Still not good enough.
                • usenetposts Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 15:06

                  Well, I usually say "I get that in Poland, but they were 40 years under
                  communism...what's your excuse?" when things like that happen to me in the west.
                  • russh Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 15:42
                    Italy & Poland are very similar in so many respects with regards to their
                    administration, and their administration's distrust of their populations.

                    The only common thing that I can find to link them together, unfortunately, is
                    the Church they share in common. I'll leave you to fathom out the rest, in
                    terms of the historical effect this organisation has had on its people, for fear
                    of creating an uproar. A good subject for discussion when we meet!
                    • speer Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 16:10
                      >Sweden is a democracy, and one of the most open and participatory societies in
                      >the world. People are used to being informed and consulted, so any government
                      >that simply imposed such a huge change

                      But nobody asked if they should stay with left wing traffic in the 60sies.
                      Gouwenrment just has changed it. The same should be wiht Euro. If you asked ppl
                      they will always say no.

                      Anyway Lithuania introduces Euro since January 2007 - and thanx God, nobody
                      asked ppl it they want it.
                      • russh Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 16:34
                        Very Democratic, I must say.

                        I know that there is a significant opinion that believe that if a government is
                        elected, then it has the delegated power to do anything on behalf of its people,
                        but my opinion is that there are certain things which will effect or make a
                        commitment to the future of a country more than others and deserve an individual
                        vote of the people (a referendum); the change of its currency, or the adhesion
                        to a new constitution are 2 things which in my book fall into that category.

                        Lithuania wants the Euro, but it has some way to go before being accepted I
                        believe. In any case, I hope that its Government will give its people the choice.

                        • speer Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 16:57
                          >Lithuania wants the Euro, but it has some way to go before being accepted I
                          >believe. In any case, I hope that its Government will give its people the
                          >choice.

                          You did not understand. Lithuania GETS EURO since January 2007. It is official
                          information alredy.

                          Nobody asked ppl - what for. Euro is good. What to ask about???!!!
                          • usenetposts Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 17:07
                            Speer wrote:

                            > >Lithuania wants the Euro, but it has some way to go before being accepted
                            > I
                            > >believe. In any case, I hope that its Government will give its people the
                            > >choice.
                            >
                            > You did not understand. Lithuania GETS EURO since January 2007. It is
                            official
                            > information alredy.


                            January is not mentioned on the site of the Lietuvos Bankas
                            www.lb.lt/news/pg.dll?f=1&did=1191&lng=EN
                            Here they talk about "early 2007".


                            > Nobody asked ppl - what for. Euro is good. What to ask about???!!!

                            You're not by any chance related to Albert Speer, are you? I dare say he would
                            not have asked the people either.
                          • russh Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 17:07
                            speer napisał:

                            > You did not understand. Lithuania GETS EURO since January 2007. It is official
                            > information alredy.

                            Your right, I did not understand. My information is that they have taken to
                            first steps, which require from 2007 that they adhere to an exchange banding of
                            +/- 15%. This is something that the existing Eurozone countries did between 1997
                            and 2000. I believe that if this, and other measures are acceptable at the end
                            of the 3 year period, then they can adopt the Euro.

                            See europe.tiscali.co.uk/index.jsp?section=euro&level=preview&content=212997

                            If my understanding is incorrect, someone please tell me.

                            >
                            > Nobody asked ppl - what for. Euro is good. What to ask about???!!!

                            I do not believe the Euro is currently a good 'investment' for participating
                            countries (and I have explained why before). Please tell me why you think it is
                            good.
                          • russh Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 17:12
                            My apologies - you are correct that if all goes well then the Euro will be
                            adopted in 2007. I thought, and read incorrectly, that the process will start in
                            2007.

                            I need to go back to School again!
                            • speer Re: The Euro +/- 19.01.06, 21:04
                              > I need to go back to School again!

                              take it easy... wink
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