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Is a video considered to be valid proof in Poland?

18.01.06, 08:33
Here is a good hypothetical legal question for all of you. In Poland, suppose
your house or apartment was robbed and you weren't home, however, you had a
video of the entire robbery which includes the time, date, and sound. You
then call the police to come over, and you give the police all details of the
robbery, and the officer asks you, "Do you have any proof of the robbery?".
You present the video to him and it contains every fine detail. Does that
video consider valid proof of the robbery in Polish courts and the legal
system, or do you require actual witnesses?

Here is another example, an actual one: A teenager who has 18 years old
constantly drives his aunts tractor, and very often drunk, around the roads
in this village. He has absolutey no drivers license for neither a car or
tractor, and is a constant threat to small children using the road. A
neighbor of mine called the police on him and the police arrived and told my
neighbor that the police must actually 'catch' this particular teenager in
person in order to prosecute him. Well, the issue is, the police will always
be here to late to witness this event. So my neighbor then asks, if I caught
this teenager on video with time, date, and sound, does it constitute valid
proof for prosecution? Oddly, the police answered no, a video will not
constitute valid proof. So, if this is indeed true (and I'm betting that
police officer is in error), how does a person in Poland expect to catch an
offender in Poland red handed? Furthermore, why are banks allowed to use a
video as proof of a robbery? In the USA, videos are the most valid proof one
can have. So, is a video valid proof of a crime, misdemeanor, or robbery in
Poland? Thanks.

Eugene
Obserwuj wątek
    • bartis_ervin Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 18.01.06, 09:09

      I will check on this. I hope that you are right and not the police officer.

      On the other hand, in Romania and kind of recording (audio/video) constitutes
      proof only if you got the permission of the D.A. and the police is on the scene
      when the recording is made. The doctrine motivates this by saying that the
      technical possibilities to change/edit the material are too huge, so if you make
      a recording on your own, its value as a proof will be low.

      Of course, I don't agree with this. Each regional court could train somebody
      from the D.A.'s office or simply hire an expert.

      Ervin

      Thebartiski.blogspot.com
      • ejmarkow Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 18.01.06, 10:16
        Ervin,

        I also hope that I am right, that video 'does' constitute valid proof. Taping
        someone's voice may be totally different, however, both 'video and voice' along
        with time and date stamps are the best proof one can have. If that isn't valid
        proof, then how does one accuse another of breaking the law in Poland? And
        again, why is a bank or supermarket allowed to use a video as proof? An
        individual can't?

        Eugene
    • kylie1 Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 18.01.06, 09:11
      I was wondering:

      What if I were to stage my own robbery? - tell a few kids to put on the
      balaclavas, tell them to scoop all the electronic equipment,jewelry, etc and
      then tell them to go and jump out the window in a big hurry ( ground floor). I
      will tape it all myself ( time, date included) and then go to the insurance
      office and show them what I got. Robbers will never be identified. I will make
      sure they are masked and acting like professional criminals. I can just imagine
      how many people would start making their own bogus vidoes just to claim free
      $$$ from the insurance company. And it can always be edited to make matters
      look worse.

      Is that possible? I would think so.

      • ejmarkow Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 18.01.06, 10:12
        Kylie,

        My question is if the video captures the legal offender's "actual" face, and
        not a camoflaged face. If you capture an 18 year old teenager (his actual face,
        body, and sound as well, with time and date) without a driver's license driving
        a tractor, speeding through public roads and very often drunk, this doesn't
        constitute valid proof? I think it does, however, Polish law may state
        differently.

        Eugene
        • kylie1 Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 19.01.06, 00:09
          > My question is if the video captures the legal offender's "actual" face, and
          > not a camoflaged face.

          I was just playing it all in my mind, Eugene...the robber scenario that is. You
          would definitely think it's enough evidence but I don't think there are that
          many robbers that would go stripping places clean without any disguise. On
          second thought, I've heard enough about dumb criminals and there's never been
          a shortage of those.

    • usenetposts Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 19.01.06, 01:40
      They are rather behind on allowing video as proof, but then, taking the logic
      there to its natural conclusion, one could (and I am happy to help in this as I
      have a quite sizeable bandwidth on my site) actually publish that video if the
      court has dismissed it as evidence, and let them sue for having had their face
      put on the net doing bad things.

      Then when they do sue, you can bring up the fact that the video was dismissed
      as court evidence, and therefore doesn't exist as far as the court is concerned.

      This may, of course, not work, but at least it should serve to highlight how
      ridiculous the system is.
        • ejmarkow Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 19.01.06, 10:05
          Thanks alot Ervin! Do me a favor, if the answer is indeed 'yes' and you do
          verify this with lawyers, if possible, please give me a link to the actual
          legael code in Polish, if available on the internet. If it isn't on the
          internet, please quote for me what section of the Polish legal code states
          this. I would appreciate it. Then, I can present this to the police officer or
          police department in the town of Ciężkowice, which has police jurisdiction in
          my area. That would be great! Thanks again.

          Eugene
          Siemiechów, Poland
          www.geocities.com/ejmarkow/siemiechow
          • missus.c media 19.01.06, 12:46
            You know what Eugene? I have though about your question and one thing I can
            say, is that if the Police ignore you - the next best thing is to get the
            (local) media interested.
            This seems to wok in Poland.

            There are tv programmes like UWAGA on TVN. They sometimes deal with these kind
            of problems.
            uwaga.onet.pl/
            you may have heard about the case in wlodow, where the local men lyched a man
            who constantly abused them, because the police failed to act on their pleads to
            help them. to cut a long story short, the police are now facing prosecution.


            btw.
            are you not worried about getting on the wrong side of the locals?
            • ejmarkow Re: media 19.01.06, 14:28
              missus.c napisała:

              > You know what Eugene? I have though about your question and one thing I can
              > say, is that if the Police ignore you - the next best thing is to get the
              > (local) media interested.
              > This seems to wok in Poland.
              >
              > There are tv programmes like UWAGA on TVN. They sometimes deal with these
              kind
              > of problems.
              > uwaga.onet.pl/
              > you may have heard about the case in wlodow, where the local men lyched a man
              > who constantly abused them, because the police failed to act on their pleads
              to
              >
              > help them. to cut a long story short, the police are now facing prosecution.
              >
              >
              > btw.
              > are you not worried about getting on the wrong side of the locals?

              Missus.c,

              If you read my first posting very carefully, it's not 'my' problem. A group of
              us (my 'local' neighbors and I) plan to record a video of this teenager
              constantly posing a threat to anyone walking on the road, and it's not even my
              video camera. So, kindly rephrase your question. It's more like 'locals' versus
              the 'locals', and not me. I'm only gathering factual information to support the
              cause. One other thing, are you afraid to do things the 'legal' way in Poland?
              If you witness wrongdoing, are you just going to turn your back for the sake
              of 'getting on the wrong side of the locals'?

              Eugene
              Siemiechow, Poland
              www.geocities.com/ejmarkow/siemiechow
              • russh Re: media 19.01.06, 15:50
                Hi Eugene.

                I've read all of your posts so far, and have come to the conclusion that you are
                very arrogant.

                If you analise the tone of your postings, the significant majority of them are
                aggressive, even when it seems obvious to me that the original posting to which
                you are replying (in this instance missus.c's) has tried to be helpful.

                Even when you are plainly wrong, as in your postings on the Euro thread, you
                will not admit it.

                What is your problem?
                • ejmarkow Re: media 19.01.06, 16:22
                  Russh,

                  It is in fact you who is arrogant. I read your posts as well, and your tone
                  seems to be very condescending, like someone else here. My post is aggressive?
                  Not really, I only asked a question, and I'm only hoping for an answer. I'm
                  here helping out my local neighbors. They have children that go to school and
                  walk on public roads, only to be occasionally met by a teenager that speeds
                  around in his tractor, without a drivers license. My neigbhors don't have
                  internet, so I am posting their questions in hopes of assisting them. I
                  wouldn't call that aggressive, only inquisitive. Missus.c was under the
                  assumption that I am the one interested in the 'video' question when in fact it
                  is my neigbors and their children. She was indeed partially helpful, however,
                  not in answering my question about the video being valid proof. What's your
                  problem?
                  • russh Re: media 19.01.06, 16:49
                    ejmarkow napisał:

                    > Russh,
                    >
                    > It is in fact you who is arrogant. I read your posts as well, and your tone
                    > seems to be very condescending, like someone else here.

                    Please give me an example. If I am arrogant and condescending, it is somthing I
                    regret, and will try to avoid. Who is the other person?

                    > My post is aggressive?
                    > Not really, I only asked a question, and I'm only hoping for an answer. I'm
                    > here helping out my local neighbors. They have children that go to school and
                    > walk on public roads, only to be occasionally met by a teenager that speeds
                    > around in his tractor, without a drivers license. My neigbhors don't have
                    > internet, so I am posting their questions in hopes of assisting them. I
                    > wouldn't call that aggressive, only inquisitive. Missus.c was under the
                    > assumption that I am the one interested in the 'video' question when in fact it
                    >
                    > is my neigbors and their children. She was indeed partially helpful, however,
                    > not in answering my question about the video being valid proof. What's your
                    > problem?

                    I totally understand the reason for the question, and support you in your quest
                    for the information. What I find aggressive is the way you respond to replies to
                    your posts. E.g. 'So, kindly rephrase your question' in my language is
                    aggresive, or at best not needed, considering the tone of the original post,
                    which was only trying to assist you. Maybe this is one of the differences
                    between American and British English.

                    I have no problems, but I am entitled, as anyone is here, to give my opinion. If
                    I do not like the way a person is behaving, I have the choice of either keeping
                    my opinion to myself (which I normally do) or publishing it. As I said before,
                    there have been many of your posts that I have felt to be arrogant or
                    aggressive, and so this time I decided to publish my views. My perception may be
                    due to your American 'style', and if it is just a matter of style, then I would
                    ask you to accept my apologies, but would also ask you to condider toning down
                    your style.
                    • usenetposts Re: media 19.01.06, 16:54
                      russh napisał:

                      > ejmarkow napisał:
                      >
                      > > Russh,
                      > >
                      > > It is in fact you who is arrogant. I read your posts as well, and your to
                      > ne
                      > > seems to be very condescending, like someone else here.
                      >
                      > Please give me an example. If I am arrogant and condescending, it is somthing
                      I
                      > regret, and will try to avoid. Who is the other person?

                      Me, Russ.
                      • ejmarkow Re: media 19.01.06, 17:33
                        Anyway, a few of us here in this village anxiously await the answer to the
                        original question rather than going to an attorney. I think we should finish
                        with the name calling and in depth analysis of individual personalities and
                        cultures. It only leads to more name calling and friction. It is true, we are
                        all entitled to our opinions, however, when they end up stirring up conflict
                        amongst the group of us here trying to contribute to this forum together, it
                        isn't too productive. It very well could be due to the American and British
                        personalities, I'm not too sure.

                        On the flip side, I really do enjoy this forum and I think it's a great thing
                        that Dave has done for us. This is the only forum that I have found which
                        intelligently discusses various interesting topics relating to us foreigners
                        here in Poland. So, Dave, congratulations on this forum! Now, I would like to
                        mention something more, and Dave, you may wish to place this in a different
                        topic because it doesn't relate to video's any longer. There is a Warsaw based
                        blog on "blogspot.com" in which it's members submit extremely interesting
                        articles. The problem is, only the member of that blog can contribute original
                        articles, while the remaining audience can only 'comment' on those articles.
                        Another issue is that those members are a bunch of friends living in Warsaw and
                        do not which to invite other foreigners living in other parts other than
                        Warsaw. What do you say that we creat a similar blog and allow everyone to
                        contribute articles which pertain to foreigners living in Poland. The blog will
                        be cross linked with this forum, and include any other pertinent links.
                        Additionally, what about a live chat? Wouldn't it be nice to have Dave's
                        forum "Foreigners Living in Poland", a related blog, and a live chat perhaps
                        using Onet or some other service? Let me know what you think?

                        Regards,

                        Eugene
                        • usenetposts Re: media 20.01.06, 11:55
                          Thanks for the encouraging words, Eugene.

                          About the blog idea, what functionalities would it have that this place doesn't
                          have? Maybe images next to the text or a larger avatar allowance?

                          I have made a space here www.usenetposts.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=8
                          available for those who want more of that sort of thing, and I wonder whether
                          that might be the sort of thing you are thinking of.

                          The main advantages is more versatility over presentation (bolds, italics,
                          colours and sizes of font) the ability to "a href" and "img src" more easily,
                          and a whacking great avatar allowance. Also what is written in the phpBB over
                          there is a lot more search engine retrievable than things written in here.

                          The problem with a blog is, as you say, that it belongs to one person and only
                          that person can post articles, while everyone else comments. In most cases,
                          because that is not very democratic, it is hard to get a group going around
                          that format. In this format, or the BB format, it is possible to get groups
                          going as anyone can start a topic or take a topic in a new direction.

                          Your idea about using calls is good, and we can certainly take advantage of
                          Skype if anyone is interested. My skype name is "david.j.james" .

                          Other ideas I had for improving community here were to have a "post of the
                          month" spot, where once a month people nominated a post to be post of the month
                          for that month, and everyone could vote. The posts of the month for each month
                          would then be recorded on a separate web page, the link to which would be given
                          each time the "post of the month" was voted on.

                          What does anyone think of that?
                          • ejmarkow Re: media 21.01.06, 21:31
                            usenetposts napisał:

                            > About the blog idea, what functionalities would it have that this place
                            doesn't have? Maybe images next to the text or a larger avatar allowance?

                            Well, the format is nice, much like a magazine, and blogs get lots of publicity
                            and get included in search machines quite fast. Also, photos on a blog are a
                            nice thing.

                            > The main advantages is more versatility over presentation (bolds, italics,
                            > colours and sizes of font) the ability to "a href" and "img src" more easily,
                            > and a whacking great avatar allowance. Also what is written in the phpBB over
                            > there is a lot more search engine retrievable than things written in here.

                            Yes, I agree.
                            > The problem with a blog is, as you say, that it belongs to one person and
                            only
                            > that person can post articles, while everyone else comments. In most cases,
                            > because that is not very democratic, it is hard to get a group going around
                            > that format. In this format, or the BB format, it is possible to get groups
                            > going as anyone can start a topic or take a topic in a new direction.

                            Actually, on 'blogspot', you can give permission to anyone you wish to submit
                            and access the blog. In other words, we can give permission to everyone that
                            wants to contribute, and not be too selective.

                            > Your idea about using calls is good, and we can certainly take advantage of
                            > Skype if anyone is interested. My skype name is "david.j.james" .

                            Did I mention Skype, or someone else did? Anyway, it's a good idea, I agree.
                            I'm ejmarkow.

                            > Other ideas I had for improving community here were to have a "post of the
                            > month" spot, where once a month people nominated a post to be post of the
                            monthfor that month, and everyone could vote. The posts of the month for each
                            monthwould then be recorded on a separate web page, the link to which would be
                            given each time the "post of the month" was voted on.

                            I think it's a great idea.
                            > What does anyone think of that?
                            >
                            • usenetposts Re: media 21.01.06, 22:54
                              ejmarkow napisał:

                              > usenetposts napisał:
                              >
                              > > About the blog idea, what functionalities would it have that this place
                              > doesn't have? Maybe images next to the text or a larger avatar allowance?
                              >
                              > Well, the format is nice, much like a magazine, and blogs get lots of
                              publicity
                              >
                              > and get included in search machines quite fast. Also, photos on a blog are a
                              > nice thing.
                              >
                              > > The main advantages is more versatility over presentation (bolds, italics
                              > ,
                              > > colours and sizes of font) the ability to "a href" and "img src" more eas
                              > ily,
                              > > and a whacking great avatar allowance. Also what is written in the phpBB
                              > over
                              > > there is a lot more search engine retrievable than things written in here
                              > .
                              >
                              > Yes, I agree.
                              > > The problem with a blog is, as you say, that it belongs to one person and
                              >
                              > only
                              > > that person can post articles, while everyone else comments. In most case
                              > s,
                              > > because that is not very democratic, it is hard to get a group going arou
                              > nd
                              > > that format. In this format, or the BB format, it is possible to get grou
                              > ps
                              > > going as anyone can start a topic or take a topic in a new direction.
                              >
                              > Actually, on 'blogspot', you can give permission to anyone you wish to submit
                              > and access the blog. In other words, we can give permission to everyone that
                              > wants to contribute, and not be too selective.

                              If you want to do a blog, then I'll link to it from here and you can link to it
                              from there. I don't have a problem with that. I don't have a problem if you
                              even post the same article here and there.

                              It's all good.

                              I tried blogging myself a couple of times but I found it didn't give me
                              anything I didn't have on my site and it bound me to a certain structure.

                              >
                              > > Your idea about using calls is good, and we can certainly take advantage
                              > of
                              > > Skype if anyone is interested. My skype name is "david.j.james" .
                              >
                              > Did I mention Skype, or someone else did? Anyway, it's a good idea, I agree.
                              > I'm ejmarkow.

                              OK, I just sent you a message on Skype.
              • missus.c Re: media 19.01.06, 21:36
                ejmarkow napisał:

                > Missus.c,
                >
                > If you read my first posting very carefully, it's not 'my' problem. A group
                of
                > us (my 'local' neighbors and I) plan to record a video of this teenager
                > constantly posing a threat to anyone walking on the road, and it's not even
                my
                > video camera. So, kindly rephrase your question.


                Sorry.... I was just tryring to figure out, what the outocme will be, if the
                others find out that you filmed the whole thing. Since you previously mentioned
                that the locals are non too fond of you, I thought maybe it is best to not get
                involved in filming themsmile
                Your choice.

                Since it is not you who will be filming and you are only the go between
                regarding law, then fine.

                It's more like 'locals' versus
                >
                > the 'locals', and not me. I'm only gathering factual information to support
                the
                >
                > cause.

                Ok. So I guess once you find out, if video is the legal way to prove his
                wrongdoing - you role is over.

                One other thing, are you afraid to do things the 'legal' way in Poland?

                No. But it takes a long time. Paper-pushing.


                > If you witness wrongdoing, are you just going to turn your back for the sake
                > of 'getting on the wrong side of the locals'?

                No. But I am not an 'outsider' so to speak. They may not be too happy that you
                are messing in their business. That's the impression I get.
                As you know, Poles have a habit of taking long to getting used to newcomers
                (not just foreigners) and it takes time to make them trust you.

                • ejmarkow Re: media 19.01.06, 22:28
                  missus.c napisała:

                  > Since you previously mentioned that the locals are non too fond of you, I
                  > thought maybe it is best to not get involved in filming themsmile

                  Missus.c, can you please find the precise post where I actually said that "the
                  locals are non too fond of me"? I don't remember saying or even implying that
                  at all, ever. I did say that "many" were "suspicious" of my intentions as a
                  newcomer here buying lots of real estate, but I never said they weren't fond of
                  me. That's a big difference. Being suspicious and fond of somebody are two
                  different items. smile

                  Eugene

                  • missus.c Re: media 20.01.06, 12:15
                    If they're suspicious of you it generally means they don't accept you.
                    If they don't accept you, then obviously they're not too fond of you.

                    But you know what? I'm sorry I bothered.
                      • missus.c Re: media 20.01.06, 21:48
                        Maybe that is because I didn't want to believe, that someone is more concerned
                        about my interpretations, than the advice I offered.
                        Nevermind.
                    • ejmarkow Re: media 21.01.06, 21:05
                      Missus.c,

                      I came here and purchased over 11 hectares of land, in 4 villages, and I'm from
                      New York City. That's what made many of them suspicious. They are wondering,
                      why did I buy this land. The ones that are suspicious do accept me, however,
                      they still wonder if I'm only here to 'buy and sell'. Just look at the fuss
                      many people make about allowing foreigner's to purchase real estate in Poland.
                      Alot of it is only suspicion. It's very common in Poland and other countries
                      for some of the locals to be suspicious of a foreigner buying land in their
                      country. For example, I have a neighbor in the next village, a Dane, who also
                      purchased a large farm there. The entire village is suspicious of his
                      intentions, but they don't necessarily dislike the man. He came from Denmark,
                      bought a farm with a nice wooden house, and renovated it. Now, everyone there
                      makes a big fuss because a true foreigner lives there. In a large city like
                      Warsaw, it's not like that. The villages are much different.

                      missus.c napisała:

                      > If they're suspicious of you it generally means they don't accept you.
                      > If they don't accept you, then obviously they're not too fond of you.
                      >
                      > But you know what? I'm sorry I bothered.
            • kylie1 Re: media 19.01.06, 20:35
              >the next best thing is to get the (local) media interested.This seems to work
              in Poland.

              Missus, I think it's an excellent idea! It works not only in POland. It works
              in Canada, the US and all other coutries when you want to speed
              up the legal process and reduces the cost of conveyancing. The wheels of
              justice turn real slow in here and I wouldn't think they move any faster in
              Poland. We also have countless TV shows that are proof of that.
              Great idea!

              Kyliesmile
          • bartis_ervin Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 20.01.06, 16:43

            The lawyer that I've met today said the following: according to art. 75 para. 1
            Administrative Code, all proof are excepted if they are likely to lead to solve
            a case.

            When I mentioned that this might be criminal case, he said that it doesn't
            matter because the above mentioned article lays down the general principle.

            If the video recording likely to solve/support your case? Yes.

            If the police will stick to their story your neighbours can:
            1. open a civil case and in a case like this, the DA will be involved thus he
            will see the recording.
            2. tell the police that they will open the civil case and anyway a DA will see
            the evidence and they will look bad.
            3. pass on the recording to a DA and not to the police.

            Let me know what happens,
            Ervin

            Thebartiski.blogspot.com
                • ejmarkow Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 26.01.06, 17:22
                  Hi Ervin,

                  Once again, we thank you very much for your help, it was an excellent piece of
                  information. I even located that section of the law you mentioned, in Polish.
                  Here it is:

                  VI. Dowody, ciężar dowodu, wybrane przepisy (Proofs, burden of proof, selected
                  provisions)

                  5. Kodeks postępowania administracyjnego (Administrative Procedure Code)

                  (If any can translate the below text to English, it would be great..thanks!)

                  Art. 75. § 1. Jako dowód należy dopuścić wszystko, co może przyczynić się do
                  wyjaśnienia sprawy, a nie jest sprzeczne z prawem. W szczególności dowodem mogą
                  być dokumenty, zeznania świadków, opinie biegłych oraz oględziny.
                  § 2. Jeżeli przepis prawa nie wymaga urzędowego potwierdzenia określonych
                  faktów lub stanu prawnego w drodze zaświadczenia właściwego organu
                  administracji, organ administracji publicznej odbiera od strony, na jej
                  wniosek, oświadczenie złożone pod rygorem odpowiedzialności za fałszywe
                  zeznania. Przepis art. 83 § 3 stosuje się odpowiednio.

                  Best Regards,

                  Eugene
                  Siemiechów, Poland
                  www.geocities.com/ejmarkow/siemiechow

                  bartis_ervin napisał:

                  >
                  > I hope it was useful. If you find out what happened please let know.
                  >
                  > To Galicia? Don't know.. probably in the spring or early summer. Definitely we
                  > would like to visit you then!
                  >
                  > Take care,
                  > Ervin
                  >
                  > Thebartiski.blogspot.com
                  • ms.jones Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 26.01.06, 20:57
                    Eugene, I don't know how to say it in legal language , so can only offer a
                    rough translation by a layman, here goes:

                    > Art. 75. § 1. Jako dowód należy dopuścić wszystko, co może przyczynić się do
                    > wyjaśnienia sprawy, a nie jest sprzeczne z prawem. W szczególności dowodem
                    mogąbyć dokumenty, zeznania świadków, opinie biegłych oraz oględziny.

                    Anything that clarifies the situation, and does not itself fall foul of the
                    law, can be admitted as evidence. In particular, the evidence can take the form
                    of documents, eye-witness testimonies, expert opinion and ?on the spot
                    verification?.


                    > § 2. Jeżeli przepis prawa nie wymaga urzędowego potwierdzenia określonych
                    > faktów lub stanu prawnego w drodze zaświadczenia właściwego organu
                    > administracji, organ administracji publicznej odbiera od strony, na jej
                    > wniosek, oświadczenie złożone pod rygorem odpowiedzialności za fałszywe
                    > zeznania. Przepis art. 83 § 3 stosuje się odpowiednio.

                    Unless the law expects an official statement confirming the ststus quo/legal
                    position to be issued by an appropriate administrative organ, the party ( i.e.
                    person/side in the conflict smile can apply and submit a formal statement to the
                    public administration body; fully liable to heavy penalies if the
                    declaration/statement is false.
          • usenetposts Re: Tape will show a tractor driver, anything els 20.01.06, 17:59
            lmblmb napisał:

            > bartis_ervin napisał:
            >
            > >
            > > My wife said yes.
            >
            > I also heard that yes. But all you (the author of the original post) are going
            > to have is a person driving a tractor. So what? Will it show some drunken
            > behaviour? Is he that drunk that it would show on the video?

            He also mentioned that this 18 year old guy had no licence. If he has no
            licence then that is an easy-to-establish fact, and the video is then fact
            about him driving a tractor on the Queen's highway, or Mr Kaczynski's highway,
            or whatever highways are called in this country. Put them together, and what
            have you got? Bippety boppety-boo - fine or prison for you know who.
    • lmblmb misdemeanor 20.01.06, 17:40
      > Here is another example, an actual one: A teenager who has 18 years old
      > constantly drives his aunts tractor, and very often drunk, around the roads
      > in this village.[...]So my neighbor then asks, if I caught
      > this teenager on video with time, date, and sound, does it constitute valid
      > proof for prosecution? Oddly, the police answered no, a video will not
      > constitute valid proof.

      This is not odd. Driving a vehicle without a permit is a misdemeanor. It cannot
      be persecuted if the person was not caught by police.

      However, driving drunk is a very serious crime. If Police is [are] reluctant to
      react to a report, make a written report to the local public prosecutor. Find
      one in the phone book. If this is a smaller village, there will be a prosecutor
      in the "capital" of the county (powiat). If you don't know what's the main town
      of the area, check licence plates: 2nd and 3rd letter is the abbreviation of the
      name (e.g. PGN - Gniezno).

      A propos, sent the report as a registered letter, and keep a copy.

      My personal suggestion: take a few photos of the kid driving the tractor,
      show/sent them to the aunt, might work. I had quite a similar situation near my
      flat: and old bum requesting 2 zł from my clients "to guard the car". He was
      told to leave once and that was enough. However, he showed up again after a few
      months. I took a couple of pictures of him and told him that if I ever see him
      again, I'll go to the local police station and so on. So far I haven't seen him.
      • ejmarkow Re: misdemeanor 22.01.06, 09:09
        > This is not odd. Driving a vehicle without a permit is a misdemeanor. It
        > cannot be persecuted if the person was not caught by police.

        He can't be prosecuted even if caught on a clear video, with sound, date and
        time? Wouldn't it be the same thing if this teenager, who drives around on a
        tractor without a drivers license, is either caught on video or caught in
        person by the police? As I mentioned earlier, the police would always arrive
        too late to catch this person and they also told one neighbor that 'video
        wouldn't constitute valid proof'. From the opinions I have read on this forum,
        it seems that video is valid proof. Thanks for the opinion.

        Eugene
    • tut_ets Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof 03.02.06, 09:51
      Well, I don't know of any case which would go actually to the court with the
      video as a proof, but I can say that yes, a video can be a proof.

      A few months ago there was an incident at school that the teacher abused the
      student verbally and some other students recorded the scene on their mobile
      phone cameras. The movie was spread all over the school and eventually got to
      the headmaster. So on the basis of the movie the abusive teacher got fired.

      In Israel parents who hire nannies for their children often would install also
      some hidden cameras and in case the nanny would turn out a bitch and would abuse
      their child (infant) she would be fired immidiatelly and the video woudl be a
      proof to the court.
    • comrade Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 07.02.06, 13:36
      Of course it can be a proof! I cant believe that police officers can talk such
      nonsense. If someone tries to convince you that law negates common sense - dont
      believe him. Letter of the law is 99,999% compatible with common sense, and in
      other 0,001% cases there are rules that say that judge can decide according to
      the spirit of the law not the letter, which in 99,99% cases he would do, because
      he is the same normal person like everyone else.

      My friend works in court (he's going to be a judge in some time) and I can tell
      you that there are lots of myths and false beliefs among people about what the
      law is like and how the courts work. Myth #1 is that in many cases letter of the
      law contradicts common sense. Myth #2 is that judges come from some other
      planet, as they show no ability to think logically and deliver a fair judgement
      in obvious cases, such as the one you described. Myth #3: In conflict between
      letter and spirit of the law, the letter always wins, so judgments are unfair
      and law is helpless against criminals, this belief is often popularized by
      movies. In movies the judges always have their hands tied, even when the proofs
      are obvious etc.

      What worries me is that police officers seem to believe some of the myths smile
      maybe village police are simply DUMB smile
      • usenetposts Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 08.02.06, 14:52
        comrade napisał(a):

        > Of course it can be a proof! I cant believe that police officers can talk such
        > nonsense. If someone tries to convince you that law negates common sense -
        dont
        > believe him. Letter of the law is 99,999% compatible with common sense, and in
        > other 0,001% cases there are rules that say that judge can decide according to
        > the spirit of the law not the letter, which in 99,99% cases he would do,
        becaus
        > e
        > he is the same normal person like everyone else.
        >
        > My friend works in court (he's going to be a judge in some time) and I can
        tell
        > you that there are lots of myths and false beliefs among people about what the
        > law is like and how the courts work. Myth #1 is that in many cases letter of
        th
        > e
        > law contradicts common sense. Myth #2 is that judges come from some other
        > planet, as they show no ability to think logically and deliver a fair
        judgement
        > in obvious cases, such as the one you described. Myth #3: In conflict between
        > letter and spirit of the law, the letter always wins, so judgments are unfair
        > and law is helpless against criminals, this belief is often popularized by
        > movies. In movies the judges always have their hands tied, even when the
        proofs
        > are obvious etc.
        >
        > What worries me is that police officers seem to believe some of the myths smile
        > maybe village police are simply DUMB smile


        I wish I could believe your rosy view of the justice system.

        It seems to me, as someone who has paid over 30,000 GBP of his earnings on
        lawyers, that what the legal system does first and foremost, from legal
        secretary up to high court judge, is to take whatever decisions are likely to
        wring the most money out of the warring parties into the hands of lawyers
        generally.
    • manom74 Re: Is a video considered to be valid proof in Po 07.02.06, 15:50
      I would bet that it is a proof in the court of Poland. As you mentioned in the
      note, the PC was not aware of the legal evidence that can be passed on the
      trial before Polish Court.
      While you are in Poland keep in mind that you need to know your right very well
      in order to enforce them
    • firemouse Re: Yes 09.02.06, 13:38
      Wow. So many interesting posts around, but unfortunately I have no time to
      partake in every thread, so I'll try to help with this one at least. Hopefully I
      will have more time soon to be here more often.

      To the point:

      Video tape is considered to be valid proof in penal proceeding. You do not need
      actual witnesses, because simply nobody can be present at the crime scene while
      it was committed; the tape is then a circumstancial evidence and as such enjoys
      court attention in consecutive circumstancial prosecution. In case of any doubts
      please refer to Supreme Court decisions, like IV KK 351/04 or II KK 352/02,
      where video tape was considered to be one of the most important evidences for
      the case.

      Video tape is dismissed as a valid evidence only if it is made intentionally for
      the court proceeding purposes (art. 393 § 3 kpk) or has been derived under
      constraint or threat; otherwise it is perfectly valid, athough I think that use
      of hypnosis, pharma or technical means distorting the actions of recorded
      subject by the recording person (in wide meaning) may also lead to dismissing
      the evidence similar to art. 171 § 5 of kpk.

      As for Kylie's (I hope) doubts about the possible set up of robbery it does not
      turn down the video as a valid proof; if it turns out in the course of
      proceeding that it was the case, then the house woner commits a crime described
      in section XXX of penal code, especially this of art. 233, 234 or 235.

      For the actual case, video tape may serve here as valid proof too, and the aunt
      commits a crime of art. 179 kk (penal code) by allowing a person drunk or
      without any required license to drive the tractor; this issue is widely covered
      by Supreme Court decision of 28.02.1975 (V KZP 2/74). This is partly invalid
      now, but not in the scope discussed here. This is decision of complete Penal
      Chamber and as such it is binding for the legal resort when judging the traffic
      offences. If the policeman declines to accept the tape as proof and start the
      proceeding he undergoes the disciplinary responsibility and probably there will
      be also other charges applicable. I suggest to inform the public prosecutor
      about it and file the information about commiting the crime there in this case.

      Hope this helps.

      Oh, and the proof made intentionally for the court proceeding which are covered
      by art. 393 § 3 kpk (this stands for penal proceeding code) are such which are
      made FOR purposes of the proceeding while pending and registration of
      crime/offence is not considered to be covered by this provision, even if you
      walk the road up and down nights and day with the camera waiting for the
      notorious teenager to show up. At least I hope so, I am not a big penal
      specialist too.

      FM

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