Why did you move to Poland?

[jagawebmaster]

when I left Poland to study abroad in 1993 there were very few foreigners
(except Romanian gipsies and our Eastern Slavic friends) who lived in Poland,
mainly temporary but now I hear more and more about foreigners from all
around the world who either moved to Poland or plan to move.

Where are you from? Why did you move in Poland? Are you temporarily there or
you are planning to stay in Poland forever? Is it easy to live in Poland for
a foreigner?

Jaga, Polish Culture Host

I hope I do not ask to many questions. Visit us also at:
jagahost.proboards79.com/index.cgi
culture.polishsite.us/

[ejmarkow]

Hi Jaga,

> Where are you from?

Born in Manhattan, New York City, USA, later living most of my life in Staten
Island, New York, USA.

> Why did you move in Poland?

It has always been my dream to own something in Europe, especially a house in a
small village and to start an Agro-Tourism business on my farm.

> Are you temporarily there or you are planning to stay in Poland forever?

I plan to alternate between the USA and Poland for now. Later, that depends on
many factors.

> Is it easy to live in Poland for a foreigner?

The language was a barrier and I was a total stranger here in my village, so it
was not easy in the beginning. Now, it's much better, for I have adjusted.

Regards,

Eugene
Siemiechów, Poland
www.geocities.com/ejmarkow/siemiechow

[jagawebmaster]

Eugene,

thanks for your reply. I wonder whether it would be possible for foreigners to
move to Poland if we would not have cellphones, internet etc etc.

The world seem to be much closer now than 10, 20 and 30 years ago!

[tut_ets]

I see there are a lot of people, like you Eugene, coming to Poland from Western
countries and establishing farms... I have nothing against. But don't you meet
with unfriendly looks of other farmers in your village?

But still - why such a weird country like Poland? What is so great about Poland
that people choose our country?

[ejmarkow]

> But don't you meet with unfriendly looks of other farmers in your village?

Currently, the situation is very good with the majority of the local farmers
here. Most of the suspicion was during my first year. Everything takes time.

> But still - why such a weird country like Poland? What is so great about
> Poland that people choose our country?

I will answer your question with a question...why is Poland weird? I think it
is a perfectly normal and beautiful country, with a rich tradition of culture,
arts, music, and great cuisine. I admire the architecture and scenery very
much, and Polish hospitality is excellent.

Regards,

Eugene
Siemiechów, Poland

[autumn_mist]

> much, and Polish hospitality is excellent.

You pull our legs, don't you? Or have you minded a private hospital?

[ejmarkow]

autumn_mist napisał:

> You pull our legs, don't you? Or have you minded a private hospital?

No leg pulling or private hospitals. The Poland I write about is what I
experience and see. Why the pessimism on your behalf? Please expand on your
opinion.

Regards,

Eugene
Siemiechów, Poland

[sulineczka]

I don't know what he ment, but... yes, Polish hospitality is famoust. Unless
guests are not behaving like guests should. Think about it without pulling your
legs.

[hudefak]

sulineczka napisał:

> I don't know what he ment, but... yes, Polish hospitality is famoust.

Yes, it is as well like the Chinese, Indian, Arabic, Argentinian, Russian, German...

[bart_canada]

Dude, you should work on your English a bit. Hospitality is 'goscinnosc'. The
first sentence has wrong tense, the second sentence should've had 'mean' verb.
Not trying to be mean, just observing the fact.

[russh]

Bart - don't criticise others when your own English leaves much to be desired!

[bart_canada]

Huh? Never had people complaining about my English - I'm not Byron but compared
to that guy I'm as good as. Still, I'm not trying to put him down or anything,
just explaining the confusion.

[buck_turgidson]

Bart,

Most people writing here are Poles pretending to be foreigners. Expecting them
to know the difference between 'hospital' and 'hospitality' is like expecting
them to know the difference between a trumpet and a strumpet.

[craick]

btw - i remeber my mistake
host - host-ility



it was years ago, but almost(!) I've sent a card to my hosts thanking for
the 'hostility')
fortunately -something didnt sound right and i've checked it
Polish used to be nice but they may have become very hostile
Too many foreigners

rolf

[kingamamaemilki]

love the trumpet/strumpet.

K.

ps.
I'm not sure what I am: childhood in Poland, the rest in Canada - some sort of
hybrid, since I can't be totally happy in either country, and always want to go
to my other home, when in the other. As to the quality of english from
Canucks, well, who here really speaks english anyway?
like the subject, though, I'm in a process of convincing my Canuck hubby that
we should open some sort of resort by the sea. Any ideas how to convince a
Canadian guy in thirties, aside for regular stuff like beer, beutifull women,
great travel opport. etc.?

[minimus]

> like the subject, though, I'm in a process of convincing my Canuck hubby that
> we should open some sort of resort by the sea. Any ideas how to convince a
> Canadian guy in thirties, aside for regular stuff like beer, beutifull women,
> great travel opport. etc.?

Hi Kinga,
I think you pretty much covered the main arguments you could use. Use them
wisely and it should work. If they don't you can always try doing a very
detailed feasibility study and business plan where you will show what
incredibly good idea it is.

Good luck
mini
P.S. Just remembered: apparently the best way to convince a guy to do sth is to
make him think it is HIS idea.

[usenetposts]

jagawebmaster napisała:

> Eugene,
>
> thanks for your reply. I wonder whether it would be possible for foreigners
to
> move to Poland if we would not have cellphones, internet etc etc.
>
> The world seem to be much closer now than 10, 20 and 30 years ago!

I did move here prior to cellphones and the internet - at least prior to having
those things myself, although some people did have them in 1991, but I have to
admit that both these things have made it easier to live anywhere.

If I only have a car, a computer with a good bandwidth, and maybe a phone, then
I can live with other things at a fairly basic level if I have to. I mean me
speaking as one person. For my wife and kids I need of course a whole bunch of
other amenities.

[ampolion]

Hi, Eugene,
That's the kind of Poland I remember from old days.
Greetings from the Village!

[mwanginjagi]

I think many foreigners have had different experiences being in Poland... I am
black/ African and came to Poland to study from 1996 -2002 and most of my
experiences leave a lot to be desired. There was and still is open racism..
Although open confrontations has declined over the years... I was ostracized in
the true meaning of the word, not only from the community, authorities, but
also from Professors as well as students. Over the years, I can hardly remember
good times in my years as a college student... leaves a bitter taste when I
remember all the years wasted.

But again, on the positive side... I made for myself good buddies. Polish girls
in particular are easy-going and very open-minded. I enjoyed hanging out with
many and hearing all the steriotypes about black people and all. I still visit
Poland from time to time to see friends I made during that time. I also had a
chance of learning a new language and living among a different culture. This
opens one up into a whole new world. I loved Polish weddings... the food and
vodka all night long.... Polish beer is excellent and Polish Jokes are blunt to
the core. Polish women and gals are beautiful.. Polish countryside is
magical... few polish cities have something unique in them.

In retrospect, I think Communism had a lot to do with the way Polish people
responded to me as a black person. Very little info about Africa and if any in
the media... always negative. I was amuzed to be asked questions like where I
bought my clothes as some thought I came to Poland nacked. It's this lack of
information and being in a closed-circuit that keeps many fearing what's out
there.

Another very distubing area is the legalization of a foreigner's stay in
Poland. It has become apparent that it all depends on who you are (black, white
or brown) and from what country you come from. I had many Americans who had no
problems extending their stay in Poland... yet, I always had issues with it,
despite having student's status. I think the Ministry of Education/ Foreign
affairs should investigate into this issue as I feel there are some elements
sitting behind the desk who make their own decision irrespective of what the
law prescribes.

All said, I think the future of Poland is bright. Warsaw seems to be @ the
forefront of change with a new breed of young turks, learned from the west and
earning real bucks. I think there'll be great wealth disparities in a very near
future between those that resist change and those that embrace it... and for
foreigners, Poland has sometime to learn to embrace multiculuralism.

Regards
/Mwangi, Kenya

[jagawebmaster]

Dear Mwangi,

thank you for a very interesting reply. I am so glad you shared with us your
opinion about Poland! Yes, Poles are much less racially aware than the citizens
of other countries. But - just face it - much less people of color live in
Poland. I also heard from friends who spend some time in Nigeria and the
children were touching them checking whether they have... skin

I was lucky that I lived in Krakow next to the student city, so I was always a
bit more exposed to people of colors and different race than the average
person. It does not mean that I am free of stereotypes

I guess, only children are not

I tell you my story - when I was still a child.... in 60-es long time ago), my
mother waited in the line in the store - and then there was a black student and
he had to smile to me - I was maybe 2-3 years old, and I smiled back to him
and he opened his hands as like he wanted to hug me and then (my mother told me
so later on) my mother the first time in her life realized that the palms of
this black students were completely white in contrast to the rest of the
skin... and this kind of shocked her. Not anything bad against him, nothing,
just a surprise....

you have to understand, people were not exposed to these who looked
differently. My parents later on had friends from all over the world, from
Germany, Italy, Nigeria etc - but in that time - 60-es Poland was rather the
isolated country. My mother noticed something which for her was strange, but me
as a child - just did not see that. Did you notice that children of different
skin colors play always so well? We all need to go back to be kids sometimes...

Jaga

Polish Culture Site
culture.polishsite.us/Forum
jagahost.proboards79.com/index.cgi

[mwanginjagi]

Mr. Jaga,

Thank you for your reply and the overview of Poland vs. foreigners
relationship. And I must admit, you are right in many ways. I remember growing
up in Kenya, upcountry in the slopes of Mt. Kenya... we were always amuzed when
we saw or even interacted with whites and all, esp. the missionaries... sO I
agree on that....

But I beg to differ on the exposure issue being the reason for unwelcoming
gesture towards blacks. True, there is some truth in it. Taking into
consideration Polish History and the occupation has left Polish people a little
careful when dealing with foreigners... that's natural. But what beats logic is
the reasons you would hate or dislike someone by the color of their skin? To my
recollection and all the history I've read of Poland, there was no one time
where Poland and Africa had a conflict of any kind. Infact, it's been proven
that during King Zygmount's time, he had quite a number of very effective black
officers in his army... So where did this notion of dislike to a people that
have not offended Polish people start?

Till now, I have attributed this to ignorance and lack of exposure, but the
more I think of it, the more I am curious as to the root reason for this
behavior... maybe there's someone out there who would be able to explain this,
I don't know. At the same time, I can contribute a lot of behaviour to some
complexes of feeling inadequate, threatened by anything and everything. This, I
have observed being outside, How poles treat each other and interract with each
other... I haven't fully understood why this is so... Why would you want to
outdo your fellow Polish citizen instead of giving a helping hand whilst
outside Poland? I thought unity was strength?

Mr. Jaga, Kindly address these concerns to the best of your ability and
knowledge.

Thank you

Regards
Mwangi

[mwanginjagi]

mwanginjagi napisał:

> Mr. Jaga,
>
> Thank you for your reply and the overview of Poland vs. foreigners
> relationship. And I must admit, you are right in many ways. I remember
growing
> up in Kenya, upcountry in the slopes of Mt. Kenya... we were always amuzed
when
>
> we saw or even interacted with whites and all, esp. the missionaries... sO I
> agree on that....
>
> But I beg to differ on the exposure issue being the reason for unwelcoming
> gesture towards blacks. True, there is some truth in it. Taking into
> consideration Polish History and the occupation has left Polish people a
little
>
> careful when dealing with foreigners... that's natural. But what beats logic
is
>
> the reasons you would hate or dislike someone by the color of their skin? To
my
>
> recollection and all the history I've read of Poland, there was no one time
> where Poland and Africa had a conflict of any kind. Infact, it's been proven
> that during King Zygmount's time, he had quite a number of very effective
black
>
> officers in his army... So where did this notion of dislike to a people that
> have not offended Polish people start?
>
> Till now, I have attributed this to ignorance and lack of exposure, but the
> more I think of it, the more I am curious as to the root reason for this
> behavior... maybe there's someone out there who would be able to explain
this,
> I don't know. At the same time, I can contribute a lot of behaviour to some
> complexes of feeling inadequate, threatened by anything and everything. This,
I
>
> have observed being outside, How poles treat each other and interract with
each
>
> other... I haven't fully understood why this is so... Why would you want to
> outdo your fellow Polish citizen instead of giving a helping hand whilst
> outside Poland? I thought unity was strength?
>
> Mr. Jaga, Kindly address these concerns to the best of your ability and
> knowledge.
>
> Thank you
>
> Regards
> Mwangi

Mr. Jagawebmaster...

I am still waiting for your input in this matter

Pozdrawiam

[jagawebmaster]

I am sorry, I let you wait so long! I did not visit this forum for a while.
Your input is very good. You are right, Poles never had a conflict with any
Afrcian country - but.... how could they? They were never a colonist country or
never had a neighbor other than European country. On the other hand - Poles
like people from all over the world are suspicious of everything which is
different. Poles are not extremely tolerant since we are a very homogenous
country nationally. I am not sure whether you noticed, I have a website devoted
to Polish culture. I would love to have your input - maybe you woudl write
about 400-500 words long article about your interaction with Poles for our
readers?

check it here:
culture.polishsite.us/smfamily.html
culture.polishsite.us/art-egz.html
culture.polishsite.us/art-egz.html
Jaga

[craick]

I would like to add something

We are very competitive nation
I have a feeling if there's nothing dangerous to us we can't unite abroad and
we keep competing with each other
Mostly - if we are starting up
the unity shows if we fight something 'bigger'
as for black people- if you grown up in the secluded country you can't expect
openess and tolerance

anything what's strange brings questions, curiosity and - often -
misunderstanding

[ianek70]

jagawebmaster napisała:

> Where are you from?

Paisley, West Central Scotland.
www.paisley.org.uk/gallery/album05
> Why did you move in Poland?

I left Scotland during the recession of the early 90s. Eventually I moved to
Poland in 1994. I was drunk at the time.

> Are you temporarily there or
> you are planning to stay in Poland forever?

I'm still temporarily here, but I'm leaving this year. Poland is fucked and has
no future.

> Is it easy to live in Poland for
> a foreigner?

Yes.
There's a lot of bureaucracy designed to make life difficult for non-Poles, but
the bureaucrats in Warsaw don't realise that non-Poles don't give a shit about
bureaucracy and we just ignore it.

[mwanginjagi]

You see... as ianek70 says, I have expressed the same views in the thread "How
long it takes to get temporary residance" and some other thread and I've come
under sharp critisism of being Jaded and cynical in my viewpoints. I was also
given the abc's of going about the system.... What I have to say is that Polish
department of foreign affairs is the craziest place and people you can ever
deal with... and I conjur with ianek70... as a foreigner, you must be CRAZY to
decide to stay in Poland... Poland is not yet ready, at least it's system is
not in place to afford a foreigner the Joy of being there...

Pozdrawiam
/Mwangi

[ianek70]

mwanginjagi napisał:

> You see... as ianek70 says, I have expressed the same views in the
thread "How
> long it takes to get temporary residance" and some other thread and I've come
> under sharp critisism of being Jaded and cynical in my viewpoints. I was also
> given the abc's of going about the system.... What I have to say is that
Polish
>
> department of foreign affairs is the craziest place and people you can ever
> deal with... and I conjur with ianek70... as a foreigner, you must be CRAZY
to
> decide to stay in Poland... Poland is not yet ready, at least it's system is
> not in place to afford a foreigner the Joy of being there...

The biggest problem is that they (i.e. people behind desks in Warsaw with no
contact with reality) keep changing the regulations.
As an EU citizen I now only need 5 things to get a residence permit.
Before I needed 15 (including 4 documents which don't exist and one that I had
to go to Warsaw for), and you're not supposed to work without a card, but you
can't get a card unless you're working, and you've got one elaborate set of
lies for the tax office and another for the Urząd or the cops, so I just
decided fuck it and didn't bother.
If anyone asked me for ID I'd just show them the old one, if they checked the
date I said, "I've applied for a new one, but you know what the bureaucracy's
like." And they'd laugh stupidly and say "Yes, this is our mad crazy country."
Now you need insurance (koszty leczenia) for residence permits, so I spent 2
days going round insurance companies.
Warta has some ridiculous special policy for foreigners for 140zl per month
that you have to take out for a whole year, but the best is PZU - you pay the
first installment of 33zl, photocopy the form for the Urząd then you can stop
paying.

[mwanginjagi]

You have hit the nail @ the head 100% !!! I went without valid residence for 2
full years... because they would take you round and round as if you are
crazy... and decided it was time to leave a place where you will never make
progress in your life to reach your aspirations... and I am sure this story
resonates across all foreigners in Poland. For EU citizens, it's easier as the
rules (which no one follows, but they make them up) are replicated from other
EU countries... It's just one crazy country when it comes to paper-work..!!!

[marcus_anglikiem]

yeah, i lived in Poland from July 2002 to June 2004 without papers... Ianek was
right
"There's a lot of bureaucracy designed to make life difficult for non-Poles,
but the bureaucrats in Warsaw don't realise that non-Poles don't give a shit
about bureaucracy and we just ignore it."
I remember a couple of occasions; once a cop or railway official guy told me
off for walking across the lines at Poznan Gl. station, i just feigned
incomprehension and said in English that we English don't need to carry ID; all
was OK. In W-wa i a police van pulled up and the guys jumped out the back &
had a go at me for jaywalking. I spoke this time in Polish, explaining that
I was English and didn't know i couldn't cross the road there (opposite the
Palace of Culture & Science) - and the funniest thing was they didn't believe
I wasn't Polish! until i showed them my passport - &they let me go straight
away... It's such that even Poles do it - in Lebork, some students (aged 15
and 16 ) were caught by the police drinking in the park - they simply spoke
English & said they were from Scotland and the police let them alone!

In response to Jaga's questions;

Where are you from?
- I was born in Sutton Coldfield (near Birmingham), UK.

Why did you move in Poland?
- because having travelled to around 30 countries , Poland is my favourite,
i love it!

Are you temporarily there or you are planning to stay in Poland forever?
- I was planning to stay forever, but personal circumstances changed &
I ended up back in the UK (this country sucks! but i suppose i should be
grateful i have a stable job)

Is it easy to live in Poland for a foreigner?
- absolutely (though i don't think it would be as easy for a non-
Polish speaker)

Marcus .

[jagawebmaster]

Marcus,

it is interesting but my dad (who knows several foreign languages) always
insisted that trying to pretend a foreigner helps in many instances in life in
Poland just like what you are saying.

Take care and do not cross the railway road where you should not

jaga

Visit Polish Culture Site culture.polishsite.us

visit Polish Culture Forum:
jagahost.proboards79.com/index.cgi

[usenetposts]

Well, like I keep saying, you do not have to be a foreigner to write here. Only
the topics should be discussive and things which are likely to interest
foreigners living here or thinking of moving here. If someone wants to write
here and they are Polish, I don't take that as "pretending to be a foreigner".

[nasza_maggie]

It seemed like the only reasonable thing to do at that time, in that place and
in the situation

[ja_karola]

RE: THE POLISH BUREAUCRACY

The system is not a maze only for foreigners. I'm a Pole with dual citizenship
living in Canada and during my last visit, I wanted to have my new ID (dowod
osobisty) issued. The number of documents that I had to apply for from
different "urzedy" was staggering. First off, I had to prove that I am a
Polish citizen even though I had my old ID not to mention my passport, which
you'd think would be enough proof, but not to the "one-track-minded" polish
bureaucrats, no... I had to go to the city of my place of birth to obtain a
copy of my parents' act of marriage, my birth certificate, then I had to go
back to the "woj. urzad" in Gdansk to get a special document proving my
citizenship (don't ask me details, because even my father who's well versed in
the bureaucratic rules and regulations got lost in all this madness).
All this document gathering having taken so long, I had left the country before
I could collect my new ID. When I went back just a few weeks ago, I decided to
pick it up. The lady asked me whether I had my receipt for without it she
couldn't give it to me. At this point, I thought I was going to set her hair
on fire. I said, listen, I have a passport, and old ID, both having my
pictures on them. My face hasn't been disfigured since then, surely you can
see it is me on both pictures! To my amazement, the lady made a decision of
her own, and issued the document to me although she wasn't a happy camper.
So for all you foreigners, your life isn't much different from the rest of
Poles living in Poland and incessantly complaining of the overgrown
bureaucracy. It is, unfortunately part of the testament left to us by the
communist regime. Too many lazy, brainless bureaucrats getting a kick out of
making other people's lives miserable.

On a positive note however, be happy you're not dealing with the Italian
bureaucracy. Things could be a whole lot worse then....

RE: RACISM

Unfortunately racism is everywhere. Living in N.A., one hears of accounts of
racism on the news on the daily basis. The U.S. especially will take many
generations before what is presented on TV sitcoms as normal will actually be
the real situation in the lives of Americans. Their division over the tragedy
in New Orleans is only one recent example of how racist the country is. If you
think about, only half a century ago, schools were still segregated. Only a
few years before then, one brave black woman refused to sit at the back of the
bus where was the designated place for Blacks at that time.
Ghana was the first African nation to free itself of the shackles of colonial
rule....in 1957! That's not such a long time ago. It takes generations to
change people's views. It took centuries to create one stereotype; it'll take
perhaps as many to change it. Sad but true!

Note for Mr. Mwanginjagi - a Kenyan friend of mine just climbed Mount Kenya
last year. Beautiful country (from what I've seen on pics) and a beautiful
culture! Why on Earth would you change that for Poland?

If only more people read Ryszard Kapuscinski's books, Poles would have a very
different view of Africa, by far the most beautiful continent on Earth.

[williamj01]

Buy new t-shirts, Hi-vis, Leather jackets, etc from BNSON they are giving a huge discount on each product