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Family and children in Poland

03.02.06, 10:10

Hello,

I'm from Germany and have just got a baby together with my girlfriend. I work
and live here and it's OK for me. BUT: I'm not shure whether Poland is a good
place for raising up children and having family. The reasons? Well first of
all: Polish medical care - it's horrible! I was at the birth in the hospital.
Even though we payed extra money for so called "family birth" it was simply
bad. Many of the staff were so unfriendly, that they wound't be allowed to do
cleaning jobs in a german hospital. Sorry to have to say that. To have a good
medical care in Poland I think it would be nessecary to have a very good
private health insurance. But why should I pay for this, when I'm paying so
much for taxes and ZUS? And: I don't have any tax benefits or other benefits
for having kids. And prices for children commodities are exactly the same as
in Germany.
Other reason: polish drivers, why the fuck don't they stop when kids from
school want to go on zebra crossings? Why do they have to drive 80-100 kmH
when only 50 is allowed? I saw that so many times. I would be afraid of
letting my kids walk alone on the street to school.
Other reason: Unless one has got his own house and garden it's hard to find a
playground for children outside. I saw children playng on unfenced playgrounds
or meadows where dogs and cats have their shit. No one seem to care about it.
The playgrouds look often as if they were from the heavy industry age: all
made from SOLID METALL. Very seldom you see a wooden see-saw. It's mostly
heavy metal wink What happens when it meets with my kid's head?

Question: What would you do, if you had kids in Poland? Would you stay here?
If yes: What would you try do for them so they have best childhood possible?
Obserwuj wątek
    • tut_ets Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 10:35
      Hmmm...

      I'm Polish, but I live abroad now. Since I grew up in this kind of enviroment,
      with metal playgrounds - I know how my mom was always sitting on a bench and
      watchng us if we play nice and if nothing happend to us. But now, when my little
      (5 yrs old) sister goes to the playground, even though they changed all the
      materials from metl ones to wooden ones - still she watches her. To be sure.

      But we would often go to grandparents on the city outskirts or visit family
      friends on the cottage, and we would play in cold creeks, walk barefoot (lso on
      the icy snow), climb on the trees, make mud-soups and cakes and even "try" to
      eat that mixture. So what? Me and all my siblings are fine, nothing bad
      happened. You got beaten by bees, hit your foot on the stone, but you learn how
      to deal with these things in the future.
      We are city children but we know our way around. And have been always healthy
      (except for being cold sometimes) and never took any medicines.

      Well, you see. It depends what on what kind of world you want to create for your
      children. If you want them to live in a vacuum (in a place that they would not
      get hit ever, nor tasted sand, nor walked on a meadow with cows shit), go back
      to Germany and stay in a city. Because when we would visit farmers we were
      friendly with, in south of Germany, their kid was also walking into the stall
      and running among cow shit (also on the meadow) barefoot.
      If you want them to have life experience and not to become weirdos who are
      afraid to take their shoes off and walk barefoot and most important - if you
      want to spend a lot of time with your children (not just be busy with work) and
      teach them a lot of useful things - than it doesn't matter where you will live.

      As for the healthcare system - well, I even have no idea no more how it goes in
      Poland. So I can't tell you. But I'm pretty sure that that shouldn't be a
      problem either.
      • plectrum Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 11:01
        tut_ets napisała:

        > Hmmm...
        >
        > I'm Polish, but I live abroad now. Since I grew up in this kind of enviroment,
        > with metal playgrounds - I know how my mom was always sitting on a bench and
        > watchng us if we play nice and if nothing happend to us. But now, when my littl
        > e
        > (5 yrs old) sister goes to the playground, even though they changed all the
        > materials from metl ones to wooden ones - still she watches her. To be sure.
        >
        > But we would often go to grandparents on the city outskirts or visit family
        > friends on the cottage, and we would play in cold creeks, walk barefoot (lso on
        > the icy snow), climb on the trees, make mud-soups and cakes and even "try" to
        > eat that mixture. So what? Me and all my siblings are fine, nothing bad
        > happened. You got beaten by bees, hit your foot on the stone, but you learn how
        > to deal with these things in the future.
        > We are city children but we know our way around. And have been always healthy
        > (except for being cold sometimes) and never took any medicines.
        >
        > Well, you see. It depends what on what kind of world you want to create for you
        > r
        > children. If you want them to live in a vacuum (in a place that they would not
        > get hit ever, nor tasted sand, nor walked on a meadow with cows shit), go back
        > to Germany and stay in a city. Because when we would visit farmers we were
        > friendly with, in south of Germany, their kid was also walking into the stall
        > and running among cow shit (also on the meadow) barefoot.
        > If you want them to have life experience and not to become weirdos who are
        > afraid to take their shoes off and walk barefoot and most important - if you
        > want to spend a lot of time with your children (not just be busy with work) and
        > teach them a lot of useful things - than it doesn't matter where you will live.
        >
        >
        > As for the healthcare system - well, I even have no idea no more how it goes in
        > Poland. So I can't tell you. But I'm pretty sure that that shouldn't be a
        > problem either.

        If you want to discuss it on the "If you don't like it here go away" level, then
        stop, please.
        I grew up in a village, my granparents were farmers and used to play with
        chickens, cats, cows, horses and all other animals you usually can meet on a
        farm. And I have walked into cows shit many many times in my life. But: If I
        live in a town, where many peaple and thereir dogs and cats live, I want AT
        LEAST that the playground HAS a fance, and no-one goes there with his dog to let
        him shit there or no cat use the sand to pee and shit there. Beceuse if my child
        takes something into his mouth, as small children usually do, I want to at least
        be shure, that it won't be dogs or cats shit, OK? Becous this would be really
        dangerous. That's why playgrounds in Germany DO HAVE fances. And that's why in
        Germany it's absolutely forbidden to go with a dog or a cat to a playground,
        where small children play. AND NOT because someone wants to grow up kids in a
        vacuum, as you say.

        Please, don't push me in the clean-german corner. If I were so, I would be
        living in Poland at all, for shure.
    • waldek1610 Polish families, kids tortured & killed by Germans 03.02.06, 11:05
      plectrum napisał:

      > Hello,
      > I'm from Germany and have just got a baby together with my girlfriend. I work
      > and live here and it's OK for me. BUT: I'm not shure whether Poland is a good
      > place for raising up children and having family. The reasons? Well first of
      > all: Polish medical care - it's horrible!

      I guess you were treated humanly at least, on the other hand if your wife was a
      patient in German concentration camp in Auschwitz- Birkenau she would have her
      tubes tied or uterus removed by Doctor Mengele.... Shocked? So am I, at least
      you only reading about it, but many Jews, Poles and other Slaves actually had
      suffered under German Occupation.

      Even today if a Pole brakes a leg in Germany he is shipped back to Poland,
      without even having his wounds and broke bones "stabilized"...so much for
      German "medical services"...

      I saw children playng on unfenced playgrounds
      > or meadows where dogs and cats have their shit. No one seem to care about it.
      > The playgrouds look often as if they were from the heavy industry age: all
      > made from SOLID METALL. Very seldom you see a wooden see-saw. It's mostly
      > heavy metal wink What happens when it meets with my kid's head?

      Actually, we used to have a nice playgrounds in Poland before World War II, but
      the Nazi Germany invaded and plundered, distroyed and burned everything...For
      example the Polish capital Warsaw was the 8th largest city in Europe before
      1939, and it was called "the Paris of the East"... still hurts me when I think
      about those Barbaric Germans who distroyed our beautifull country.


      > Question: What would you do, if you had kids in Poland? Would you stay here?
      > If yes: What would you try do for them so they have best childhood possible?


      Your arrogance knows no limits, I guess you suffer from amnesia, and as a
      German you forgot that during WWII your Germany murdered brutally 6 milion
      Poles ...within barely 5 and a half years....whole generations of Polish kids
      lost their parents, their childhood, all in the name of German greed and their
      obsesive belief in racial "superiority"...

      Perheaps you want to donate some money for rebuilding Warsaw that is still
      going on, or else least shut up, you have no shame!
          • plectrum Re: Polish families, kids tortured & killed by Ge 03.02.06, 11:20
            waldek1610 napisał:

            > What I'm saying is a historical fact, regardless how much Germans want to
            > forget about it.

            I don't give a shit about history. History was creatad mainly by people like
            you: Who are blinded by hate. If you want to discuss about history go to a
            adecuate forum. I want to talk about current situation for families in Poland, OK?
            • waldek1610 Re: Polish families, kids tortured & killed by Ge 03.02.06, 11:39
              Current situation in Poland is a result of the last century...nothing happens
              overnight.

              It's all about common sense; if you didn't invade Poland we and distroyed its
              infrastructure.. hoping to rule it forever, today Poland would be a prosperous
              country and you would not have to complain about inadequate playgrounds for
              kids in Poland.
          • bob75rob1 Re: Polish families, kids tortured & killed by Ge 03.02.06, 11:23
            Waldek, how long nowadays Germans have to feel sorry for the War? Would you
            feel comfortable when one nation keep reminding you what the leaders of your
            country did more than 60 years ago? Do you still blame Austrian, Soviets for
            partitions of Poland?
            Or maybe you're attacked by Czechs for taking part of Zaolzie in 1938?
            • waldek1610 Re: Polish families, kids tortured & killed by Ge 03.02.06, 11:44
              Zaolzie, never belonged to Czechs before 1920, they aquire it at the Versales
              Peace Conference after WWII, using the circumstances that Poles were bussy
              fighting with Soviets to secure its eastern borders. And Czechs used the
              oportunity to grab small piece of land from Poland, during negotiations,
              whiching documents and fabricating others.
              • bob75rob1 Re: Polish families, kids tortured & killed by Ge 03.02.06, 12:06
                Czechoslovakia was also created in 1918. So we had right to just take it? The
                same Germans did.
                Why Brits and French signed the pact with us? They were afraid that we'll sign
                it with Hitler.
                What about Lithuania? For ages we treated the coutry as ours.

                I'll remember my country history but you're exaggerating. In all countries
                history are some painful facts but forgiveness should be also present. Please,
                don't blame Germans for Polish current situation. Remember what we did ourself
                after the war. The hardest part is to find faults in yourself. It's always
                easier to blame Germans, Russians, other ...
                • waldek1610 Re: Polish families, kids tortured & killed by Ge 03.02.06, 12:18
                  bob75rob1 napisała:

                  > It's always easier to blame Germans, Russians, other ...

                  Well, I can blame myself all I want, but it's not going to bring up some 90% of
                  Polands archives, national treasure and art...that coinsidentially was
                  plundered and distroyed in the past by.... Germans and Russians....
                    • waldek1610 Re: Polish families, kids tortured & killed by Ge 03.02.06, 12:38
                      bob75rob1 napisała:

                      > Why nowadays Germans & Russians? It's history and it should be rest in peace.
                      > It is a lesson for next generations. Some will never learn.

                      Sure, our and next generations will never have a luxury to see and learn about
                      Polish royal crowns and other regalia....because greedy Germans have distroyed
                      them. Wouldn't it be nice to see Warsaw how Chopin or even Paderewski saw it?

                      There we go again those Germans and Russians distroyed it....
                      • bob75rob1 Re: Polish families, kids tortured & killed by Ge 03.02.06, 13:00
                        I wouldn't say "greedy Germans", they were "greedy representatives of German
                        nation". So, you think that if Poles (or any other nation) would have had
                        such "an opportunity" they had acted differently?
                        If yes, I should hate Ukrainians. My grandma is Ukrainin but her husband and my
                        grandpa was Polish. His parents were killed by UPA, literally cut into pieces
                        and left in the forest. My grandpa spent 6 years on killing members of UPA, my
                        grandma were beaten up regularly by UPA when not willing to tell them where my
                        grandpa was hidding. Following your way of thinking I have reasons to hate them
                        but I don't. It's a part of painful history between both nations. If we will be
                        digging the same hole for so many years we get stuck there. Alone and isolated.
                        As some kind of freak. A fossil of old times.
      • usenetposts Re: Polish families, kids tortured & killed by Ge 03.02.06, 18:52
        waldek1610 napisał:

        > plectrum napisał:
        >
        > > Hello,
        > > I'm from Germany and have just got a baby together with my girlfriend. I
        > work
        > > and live here and it's OK for me. BUT: I'm not shure whether Poland is a
        > good
        > > place for raising up children and having family. The reasons? Well first
        > of
        > > all: Polish medical care - it's horrible!
        >
        > I guess you were treated humanly at least, on the other hand if your wife was
        a
        >
        > patient in German concentration camp in Auschwitz- Birkenau she would have
        her
        > tubes tied or uterus removed by Doctor Mengele.... Shocked? So am I, at least
        > you only reading about it, but many Jews, Poles and other Slaves actually had
        > suffered under German Occupation.
        >
        > Even today if a Pole brakes a leg in Germany he is shipped back to Poland,
        > without even having his wounds and broke bones "stabilized"...so much for
        > German "medical services"...
        >
        > I saw children playng on unfenced playgrounds
        > > or meadows where dogs and cats have their shit. No one seem to care about
        > it.
        > > The playgrouds look often as if they were from the heavy industry age: al
        > l
        > > made from SOLID METALL. Very seldom you see a wooden see-saw. It's mostly
        > > heavy metal wink What happens when it meets with my kid's head?
        >
        > Actually, we used to have a nice playgrounds in Poland before World War II,
        but
        >
        > the Nazi Germany invaded and plundered, distroyed and burned everything...For
        > example the Polish capital Warsaw was the 8th largest city in Europe before
        > 1939, and it was called "the Paris of the East"... still hurts me when I
        think
        > about those Barbaric Germans who distroyed our beautifull country.
        >
        >
        > > Question: What would you do, if you had kids in Poland? Would you stay he
        > re?
        > > If yes: What would you try do for them so they have best childhood possib
        > le?
        >
        >
        > Your arrogance knows no limits, I guess you suffer from amnesia, and as a
        > German you forgot that during WWII your Germany murdered brutally 6 milion
        > Poles ...within barely 5 and a half years....whole generations of Polish kids
        > lost their parents, their childhood, all in the name of German greed and
        their
        > obsesive belief in racial "superiority"...
        >
        > Perheaps you want to donate some money for rebuilding Warsaw that is still
        > going on, or else least shut up, you have no shame!
        >

        This is simply prejudice. For all you know this poster could have had
        grandparents who were absolutely against the Nazis.

        Would you like Benedykt XVI to read the way you welcomed this participant to
        our forum?

        Should I forward this to the Vatican to get your spiritual leader, who is
        German, to pray for you?
      • kylie1 Re: Polish families, kids tortured & killed by Ge 04.02.06, 01:00
        You are just being plain disgusting, Waldek. You have no right whatsover to
        talk to anyone like that. It's time to move on Waldo and stop rambling about
        the war. Plectrum was talking about fences and you obviously had to make
        another dumb comment about the Nazis. Waldo, that was just as low as you can
        get. I have one thing to tell you:
        if I were to take all your dumb comments that you have made today and before on
        this particular board and all the other boards together, put them all in a pot,
        you'd be hard pressed to stir up a half wit.

        Waldo, grow up!
        • waldek1610 UK was build from exploitaion or Africa and Asia.. 04.02.06, 06:51
          Kylie,
          You too, just like Dave come from the nation that has most blood on its hands,
          and your current Britain's prosperity you so enjoy today is based on
          exploitation and enslavement of much of the Africa and Asia....so your point of
          view doesn't suprise me.

          You want to pretend such civilized English lady, refusing to admit that todays
          prosperous UK is largerly due to the 18-19 century brutal and abusive British
          Empire.
            • waldek1610 Re: UK was build from exploitaion or Africa and A 04.02.06, 09:50
              russh napisał:

              > > You want to pretend such civilized English lady, refusing to admit that
              > >todays prosperous UK is largerly due to the 18-19 century brutal and abusive
              > > British Empire.


              > And also the world's prosperity, whether you like it or not.

              ...yes, and that "World's prosperity" just happens to be concentrated in anglo-
              saxon countries, and few others like Japan, Italy.. that also "happened" to
              have its Empires....I guess you are destined to live in a poor society unless
              you invade other countries...
            • waldek1610 Re: UK was build from exploitaion or Africa and A 05.02.06, 06:02
              Bluteau,
              And how do you know, I don't see you on this forum too often...
              I believe Kylie is a Brit living in Poland, it isn't that hard to tell. It's
              like you're trying to tell Chinesse person that you are a felow Chinesse, when
              it is clear that you don't only look white but can't say a word in Chinesse.

              So please next don't be so naive, you think you can teach a Pole... what is
              polish?
              • russh Re: UK was build from exploitaion or Africa and A 05.02.06, 08:55
                waldek1610 napisał:

                > Bluteau,
                > And how do you know, I don't see you on this forum too often...
                > I believe Kylie is a Brit living in Poland, it isn't that hard to tell. It's
                > like you're trying to tell Chinesse person that you are a felow Chinesse, when
                > it is clear that you don't only look white but can't say a word in Chinesse.
                >
                > So please next don't be so naive, you think you can teach a Pole... what is
                > polish?

                Waldek, Bluteau was right.

                • waldek1610 Kylie 05.02.06, 09:07
                  Did you ever met Polish lady named Kylie?

                  If Kylie is Polish, then Dave must also be Chinesse who miracously just....
                  happens not to know a single word in Chinesse, and doesn't care about China
                  either.

                  Seriously, did you ever see Kylie write enything in polish or at least identify
                  with Poland?
                  • usenetposts Re: Getting back on the subject of this thread 05.02.06, 14:55
                    This link

                    tinyurl.com/cdf3s
                    shows that the UK has 35,000 kids under 16 using heroine.

                    That's 35,000 kids that want to push their habit onto your kids, or just twok
                    your stereo so that they can pay for their next lot.

                    I can tell you officially that much of western civilisation is disappearing
                    this way up its own much vaunted arsehole.

                    If anyone wants to bring up their kids up in any inner city in Britain or
                    Germany, I wish them luck.

                    The drugs figures there are scarier than the road kill figures in cities here,
                    you can be sure of that.
                    • hardenfelt Re: Getting back on the subject of this thread 06.02.06, 11:01
                      I agree – hard drugs is another serious problem, which really deserves it’s own
                      tread. But if You think there are substantially less drugs in Polish schools,
                      then I’m terribly sorry to say that I must deem You naïve. And when Your kids
                      reach 14 I don’t believe there will be any difference whatsoever between the UK
                      and Poland with respect to hard drugs consumption.

                      It’s a problem as important as traffic accidents, maybe even more important
                      considering what drugs can do to people; just look at President Bush.
                  • kylie1 Re: Kylie 05.02.06, 22:39
                    Hello Walde,

                    We were cut off from power from 4pm yesterday till 3 am this morning. Storms
                    all over Vancouver coming to us from Seattle. Hydro crews were cleaning up
                    around the clock, trees and debris flying everywhere.
                    I planned on sending you a message yesterday but when I got home it was pitch
                    black.
                    Waldek I am Canadian and I have bee living here most of my life.
                    In any case, yesterday I planned to send you a message to apologize for calling
                    you an idiot. I have crossed the line and I shouldn't have.
                    Sorry, buddy!

                    smile

                    kylie
                    • waldek1610 Re: Kylie 06.02.06, 11:24
                      Kylie,
                      Apologies accepted, as I'm not interested in offending anybody, I don't take
                      offence either. I just happen to bring up controversial topics all the time,
                      just because I'm a Pole who knows anglo-saxon ways pretty well and I can sense
                      lies comming from Brit, American or other.

                      By the way why is that Dave and Russh argued that you're Polish, while you just
                      said you're Canadian?
                      • kylie1 Re: Kylie 07.02.06, 00:30
                        I was born in Poland but my parents emigrated when I was still very young.(I
                        have only Canadian citizenship).


                        >I just happen to bring up controversial topics all the time...

                        I have noticed that and I am sure Dave appreciates it. You keep his stats nice
                        and high but most people tend to disagree with you on almost any topic.
                        Why do you think that is?

                        smile

              • usenetposts Re: UK was build from exploitaion or Africa and A 05.02.06, 15:00
                waldek1610 napisał:

                > Bluteau,
                > And how do you know, I don't see you on this forum too often...

                You on the other hand are here a lot, but you have less of a clue about who's
                who here than she has.

                That's always been the sociopath's problem, though, and we shouldn't be
                surprised about it.

                > I believe Kylie is a Brit living in Poland, it isn't that hard to tell. It's
                > like you're trying to tell Chinesse person that you are a felow Chinesse,
                when
                > it is clear that you don't only look white but can't say a word in Chinesse.
                >

                A lot of Chinese people are whiter than I am, by the way.

                > So please next don't be so naive, you think you can teach a Pole... what is
                > polish?

                I'm sure she can. Now do us a flavour and varnish.
                  • usenetposts Re: UK was build from exploitaion or Africa and A 06.02.06, 11:36
                    waldek1610 napisał:

                    > Dave, don't be smart with Polish people..because we won't let you off unless
                    > you pay the price for your arrogance. By the way, I believe you been living
                    in
                    > Poland long enough to find out that English trash talk doesn't make an
                    > impresion on Poles at all.

                    It's true they don't always appreciate the full nuances of what I am saying,
                    but I always tend to put that down to the sad fact that half the population is
                    of below average intelligence.

                    The price of my arrogance is paid in full, by the 15th of the following month,
                    every month, by the way. I pay taxes here, you don't, therefore I contribute to
                    Poland where it counts, you don't, and you can leave the shit about place of
                    birth for astrologers to worry about, because as far as the old "money money
                    money" is concerned, I'm more Polish than you are, and I can survive here,
                    whereas you had to migrate like a ptak wędrujący to softer climes.
                    • waldek1610 Dave how did you & your flock found air currents? 06.02.06, 12:13
                      usenetposts napisał:

                      > I'm more Polish than you are, and I can survive here,
                      > whereas you had to migrate like a ptak wędrujący to softer climes.


                      Who says that? The British Immigrant who found shelter in Poland....

                      And if you were not flying over the La Manche Channel and Great European Plains
                      all the way to Poland with your flock of other English "birdies", perheaps you
                      were transported in a cage by duck and pidgin salesmen?
    • pierniki Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 12:12
      Hi there,

      I'm Polish and I feel really embarassed reading what sort of crap my fellow
      people post here. That's a nice welcome. Bringing up stuff from over 50 years
      ago to justify somebody's intolerance speaks for itself and needs no comment at
      all. Please don't think that all Poles are like that!!smile

      I don't have kids yet but I see where you're coming from. Healthcare is no good
      and there's no point in denying that, but it's not the worst in the world
      either. You can find good doctors all right but you'll waste half of your day
      queueing in the lounge.
      I totally agree that the system sucks considering the fact that participation
      in the public healthcare scheme is mandatory. I'd rather put some money by each
      month and use it to go to a private doctor when I need to.
      Anyway, people have children so it must work somehow, but I must agree that it
      is pretty common to take kids to their grandparents quite often providing that
      they live in the country.
      Hope you find a solution, don't get discouraged too easily!!
    • usenetposts Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 12:47
      plectrum napisał:

      >
      > Hello,
      >
      > I'm from Germany and have just got a baby together with my girlfriend.

      Welcome to the Forum and congratulations on becoming a father.


      > I work
      > and live here and it's OK for me. BUT: I'm not shure whether Poland is a good
      > place for raising up children and having family. The reasons? Well first of
      > all: Polish medical care - it's horrible! I was at the birth in the hospital.
      > Even though we payed extra money for so called "family birth" it was simply
      > bad. Many of the staff were so unfriendly, that they wound't be allowed to do
      > cleaning jobs in a german hospital. Sorry to have to say that. To have a good
      > medical care in Poland I think it would be nessecary to have a very good
      > private health insurance.

      Health insurance ensures that your hard earned money goes not to the doctor,
      but to the middle men and bureaucrats that have made the services in our
      countries so expensive, without passing on all that benefit to the people who
      actually save lives.

      The answer is to have a small fund so that you can go privately.

      And you need to ask around. If you had asked me here previously I would have
      given you the details to a great gynaecologist with English and you could have
      made private paymenst with no insurance and been given excellent and friendly
      treatment.

      In Poland in the public sector, the people are not expected to be friendly,
      which means if they are, at least they probably mean it. They are more likely
      to tell you to cover your shoes with polythene galoshes than say "Mahlzeit" or
      any of the other numerous untranslateable courtesies one will find in German
      society.


      > But why should I pay for this, when I'm paying so
      > much for taxes and ZUS?

      There is no relation between what you pay to a government system and what you
      get. It is the so-called "social contract".

      > And: I don't have any tax benefits or other benefits
      > for having kids. And prices for children commodities are exactly the same as
      > in Germany.

      ...You think so? I am pretty sure that in some cases they will be a lot
      cheaper, and in some maybe a bit more expensive. I think you maybe need to shop
      around a bit more.

      > Other reason: polish drivers, why the fuck don't they stop when kids from
      > school want to go on zebra crossings? Why do they have to drive 80-100 kmH
      > when only 50 is allowed? I saw that so many times. I would be afraid of
      > letting my kids walk alone on the street to school.

      They're not as bad as you think they are. If you look at the stats the accident
      rate is not that bad.

      One time in Poznan a driver once nearly ran into my wife pushing a pram. The
      passers by all pulled that driver out of the car and almost lynched her on the
      spot.

      > Other reason: Unless one has got his own house and garden it's hard to find a
      > playground for children outside. I saw children playng on unfenced playgrounds
      > or meadows where dogs and cats have their shit. No one seem to care about it.
      > The playgrouds look often as if they were from the heavy industry age: all
      > made from SOLID METALL. Very seldom you see a wooden see-saw. It's mostly
      > heavy metal wink What happens when it meets with my kid's head?
      >

      There are more and more advanced playgrounds, especially if you live in a nicve
      area.

      > Question: What would you do, if you had kids in Poland? Would you stay here?
      > If yes: What would you try do for them so they have best childhood possible?


      Personally I have had two of my five children in Poland, one in Moscow and two
      in the UK, and for me the Polish experience was the best of all places, and I
      am happy to bring up my kids here, and not in Moscow. Your description is
      precisely what I would have written about Moscow, whereas my experience with
      Poland has been perfectly OK.

      Like I say, you need to shop around more and exercise contacts, so if you stick
      around and participate, I believe this groups will be very helpful for you.
      • nasza_maggie Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 13:15
        Hello Plectrum!

        Welcome and congratssmile)))

        Listen, what part of Poland are you in?

        I must say, you sound all the stereotypical German perfectionist with your
        reservations about our country and in most cases I agree with you. BUT

        >
        To have a good
        medical care in Poland I think it would be nessecary to have a very good
        private health insurance. But why should I pay for this, when I'm paying so
        much for taxes and ZUS? And: I don't have any tax benefits or other benefits
        for having kids. And prices for children commodities are exactly the same as
        in Germany.

        It's the same in England. You pay taxes and so what. The NHS is rubbish.
        I have been to many hospitals here in Poland and always they have been very
        professional and I always felt sorry for the fact they get paid such rubbish
        money.

        >>Other reason: polish drivers, why the fuck don't they stop when kids from
        school want to go on zebra crossings? Why do they have to drive 80-100 kmH
        when only 50 is allowed? I saw that so many times. I would be afraid of
        letting my kids walk alone on the street to school.

        Have you ever been to Italy? smile

        >>Other reason: Unless one has got his own house and garden it's hard to find a
        playground for children outside. I saw children playng on unfenced playgrounds
        or meadows where dogs and cats have their shit. No one seem to care about it.
        The playgrouds look often as if they were from the heavy industry age: all
        made from SOLID METALL. Very seldom you see a wooden see-saw. It's mostly
        heavy metal wink What happens when it meets with my kid's head?



        Hving some experience in Germany I must say, it is not all as hunky-dory as you
        may well like us to believe. I have seen awful playgrounds in Germany and
        dog/cat shit not cleaned up and some medical staff were none too pleasant also -
        so I think maybe it is not a good idea to generalise and judge evertyhing on
        account of one experience smile But I think this is mostly because you have just
        become a dad and with the second kid you won't worry about playgrounds, dog
        shit etcsmile



        Please do not take notice of Waldek - he is a little obsessed with history. He
        doesn't live in Poland and I can assure you, that nobody here thinks like that.
        It is a shame as he gives Poles a bad name with such silly comments.
        So take no notice smile


        All in all I do not think your concerns are really so bad, that you have to run
        far away from Poland. It's what many people worry about everyday.
        It's a question of adjusting. If you already have so many small worries and
        think they are big problems - then it seems you have made your mind up already.

        What about looking around? Maybe moving to another town?
        • russh Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 14:57
          > To have a good
          > medical care in Poland I think it would be nessecary to have a very good
          > private health insurance. But why should I pay for this, when I'm paying so
          > much for taxes and ZUS? And: I don't have any tax benefits or other benefits
          > for having kids. And prices for children commodities are exactly the same as
          > in Germany.
          >
          > It's the same in England. You pay taxes and so what. The NHS is rubbish.
          > I have been to many hospitals here in Poland and always they have been very
          > professional and I always felt sorry for the fact they get paid such rubbish
          > money.

          Sorry Maggie, your way off line here. I've had kids in both countries - there is
          no comparison - the UK wins hands down on quality of care. No complaints about
          the quality of the staff in Poland, just the lack of facilities.

          I've also had parents / parents-in-law die of cancer in both countries. Again,
          no comparison - the UK wins hands down. Again, no fault of the medical staff,
          just the fact that Poland lacks financial resources.


          > >>Other reason: polish drivers, why the fuck don't they stop when kids
          > from
          > school want to go on zebra crossings? Why do they have to drive 80-100 kmH
          > when only 50 is allowed? I saw that so many times. I would be afraid of
          > letting my kids walk alone on the street to school.
          >
          > Have you ever been to Italy? smile

          I lived there for many years. My opinion is that the Italians are a close second
          to the Poles in bad / egoistical driving.


          I would also have to say that there are a lot of mental / cultural adjustments
          to make if one wants to live long term in Poland, mainly due to the lack of
          resources and high levels of bureaucracy. The good thing is that it is the
          country of opportunities, and the people are super.
      • hardenfelt Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 13:39
        Usernetposts wrote:
        > They're not as bad as you think they are. If you look at the stats the
        accident
        >
        > rate is not that bad.
        >

        Where do You take your statistics from?

        Fatalities caused by road accidents include drivers and passengers of motorised
        vehicles and pedal cycles as well as pedestrians, killed within 30 days from
        the day of the accident.

        2003
        Poland (39 million people) 5.640 people
        Germany (82 million people) 6.613 people
        Sweden (9 million people) 516 people
        Italy (57 million people) 6015 people

        epp.eurostat.cec.eu.int/portal/page?_pageid=1996,39140985&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&screen=detailref&language=en&pr
        oduct=sdi_tr&root=sdi_tr/sdi_tr/sdi_tr_imp/sdi_tr1410

        • usenetposts Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 18:32

          Michael, I took the same official EU sites you just cited (you might wanna look
          at www.tinyurl.com by the way, it's quite handy to stop long links breaking and
          annoying the readers) and if you take the average traffic death over 1992-2002
          and divide that by the median year's population, and then rank the outcome, you
          get the following stats of traffic death per 1000 in the population:


          1 0.374 Malta
          2 0.641 United Kingdom
          3 0.654 Sweden
          4 0.741 Netherlands
          5 0.853 Finland
          6 0.975 Denmark
          7 1.029 Germany
          8 1.181 Ireland
          9 1.200 Italy
          10 1.241 Slovakia
          11 1.384 Austria
          12 1.391 Hungary
          13 1.463 Belgium
          14 1.464 Spain
          15 1.466 Czech Republic
          16 1.496 France
          17 1.615 Luxembourg
          18 1.702 Poland
          19 1.723 Cyprus
          20 1.866 Slovenia
          21 1.905 Estonia
          22 1.966 Greece
          23 2.086 Lithuania
          24 2.260 Portugal
          25 2.451 Latvia

          Poland may be in the second half of the list, but as you can see it gets a lot
          worse in the EU - including the old EU. And the difference between Poland and
          Germany is not as big as the difference between the UK and France.
          • hardenfelt Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 20:39
            Usernetposts wrote:
            if you take the average traffic death over 1992-2002
            > and divide that by the median year's population, and then rank the outcome,
            you get the following stats of traffic death per 1000 in the population:



            David – I do hope You mean 10,000 – if not it’s really scaring.

            I do admit – 1.7 out of 10,000 doesn’t look as bad as 6,000 in one single year.

            If we take a young couple and their children and grandchildren – then this
            easily comes to 10 people in a family (not including spouses). In present day
            Poland there is a 5% possibility that one of these family members will die as a
            consequence of a road accident within the next 50 years. (maybe because You
            decide to have 3 glasses of wine in stead of one at Your Valentine’s dinner).

            Now – at a rough calculation the same might occur in 3% of cases in Germany
            and around less than 2% in Sweden or the UK.

            Big and small is a very relative concept – but to me the difference is big.

            • russh Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 22:26
              I think that you also have to take into account that Poland has fewer cars per
              capita than the 'Western European' countries. This means that the figures given
              are skewed.

              I still go along with the thought that Polish drivers (at least in Warsaw) are
              the worst I have seen in Europe.
              • hardenfelt Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 10:48
                What scares me is that several English, Danish and Polish friends in Warsaw
                have claimed that I represent a danger to road safety because I comply with the
                traffic regulations when I drive a car – and they might even be right.

                Maybe we should try to change some attitudes. 80% of male drivers claim that
                their skills in driving a car are “above average”. To many people just don’t
                realise that they are handling a murderous weapon.


                • russh Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 14:35
                  For sure male ego has something to do with the problem, and maybe where the ego
                  is in need of the greatest boost is the most dangerous place to be.

                  It's also to do with life style I think. If there is the 'must get there on time
                  no matter what the cost' attitude, allied to a normally stressful lifestyle,
                  then we have an explosive mix.

                  Better to leave 5 minutes earlier, or arrive 5 minutes later than to have an
                  accident.
                • usenetposts Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 22:12
                  hardenfelt napisał:

                  > What scares me is that several English, Danish and Polish friends in Warsaw
                  > have claimed that I represent a danger to road safety because I comply with
                  the
                  >
                  > traffic regulations when I drive a car – and they might even be right.
                  >
                  > Maybe we should try to change some attitudes. 80% of male drivers claim that
                  > their skills in driving a car are “above average”.

                  I note that well over half the population think that their intelligence is over
                  average, also. What does it prove?
            • usenetposts Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 22:07
              hardenfelt skrev:

              > Usernetposts wrote:
              > if you take the average traffic death over 1992-2002
              > > and divide that by the median year's population, and then rank the outcom
              > e,
              > you get the following stats of traffic death per 1000 in the population:
              >
              >
              >
              > David – I do hope You mean 10,000 – if not it’s really scarin
              > g.

              Yes, I think I did a rush job on that analysis, let me check where I got it
              wrong ...

              >
              > I do admit – 1.7 out of 10,000 doesn’t look as bad as 6,000 in one
              > single year.
              >

              Well spotted, I didn't use brackets properly in the cells when I calculated the
              average of the 11 years.

              1 0.036 Malta
              2 0.064 United Kingdom
              3 0.067 Sweden
              4 0.074 Netherlands
              5 0.087 Finland
              6 0.098 Denmark
              7 0.104 Germany
              8 0.117 Ireland
              9 0.121 Italy
              10 0.123 Slovakia
              11 0.140 Austria
              12 0.143 Hungary
              13 0.147 Belgium
              14 0.149 Spain
              15 0.146 Czech Republic
              16 0.150 France
              17 0.160 Luxembourg
              18 0.170 Poland
              19 0.173 Cyprus
              20 0.190 Slovenia
              21 0.190 Estonia
              22 0.195 Greece
              23 0.209 Lithuania
              24 0.231 Portugal
              25 0.247 Latvia

              > If we take a young couple and their children and grandchildren – then thi
              > s
              > easily comes to 10 people in a family (not including spouses). In present day
              > Poland there is a 5% possibility that one of these family members will die as
              a
              >
              > consequence of a road accident within the next 50 years. (maybe because You
              > decide to have 3 glasses of wine in stead of one at Your Valentine’s dinn
              > er).
              >

              I never drink like that. I didn't drink at all for 16 years, incidentally.

              > Now – at a rough calculation the same might occur in 3% of cases in Germ
              > any
              > and around less than 2% in Sweden or the UK.
              >
              > Big and small is a very relative concept – but to me the difference is bi
              > g.
              >

              The incidence of road death is of course 4 times more in Portugal than in the
              UK per head of population, but it oddly doesn't impact on Portugal being
              considered to have a great standard of living, and being a favoured retirement
              destination for many people in your country and mine.
    • ego_senex Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 15:44
      im POlish,
      lived in germany for few years. i do not know it is a good place for kids..
      drivers there dont stop on crossings being very rude when instructed. medical
      health care in germany and poland is quite the same (private care a mean) do
      not know how does the public one carry on.. please use excrement instead of
      sh.t which we find offensive. but u as a german may not know it.. btw. in
      switzerland where i live now germans are most dangerous drivers on roads not
      respecting local habits- vociferously trying to be conspicuous. why germs want
      to be more anglosaxon than anglosaxons are indeed. there is nothing u shd be
      boasting about, nothing to be shown off. woe unto ye!
    • maciejous Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 17:37
      Hi,
      You Germans... Superiority - that's your bigest national feature.
      I understand you had not a very good experience with polish medical care, but
      you shouldn't say what you said. I think that polish people were born to clean
      Germany. Tell me why a lot of Germans is comming to Poland to POLISH dentists??
      Only because it's cheaper? I don't think so.
      You'd better be careful what you are saying.
      Anyway, if your Germany is so WUNDERBAR - isn't it silly to stay in Poland and
      complain??
      • plectrum Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 18:00
        > Anyway, if your Germany is so WUNDERBAR - isn't it silly to stay in Poland and
        > complain??

        Usually I don't discuss on that LOW level. I didn't say Germany is good Poland
        is bad. That is only your very simplifieed interpratation, which dosn't give me
        a good impression of your intelligence.
        Why do I complain. Well, I live here, I pay A LOT of taxes, because I have a
        very good salary. So that is why I have the right to take FULL part of social
        live in Poland. And that includes criticizm.

        Why do German come to polish dentists? Mainly because it's far cheaper than in
        Germany. And polish dentist are good, if they are paid good. But will I meet a
        good dector for my kid in a "normal" public hospital, in a case of emergency? In
        Polend it's a matter of LUCK, and I doubt whether it's enaugh for me.
        • hrydz Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 18:24
          Call down boys, each of you has some right. Our German friends possibly is
          right that he complains about standard of things he mentioned. I had
          a "plesure" to work with Polish soviet administration and know how public
          sector shity it.
          But Poles have as well some logic arguments. If youy notice Poland after war
          did not have chance for a proper development as it was in soviet zone of
          control. As you know for Soviet Union power meant huge army and will to attack
          west. The living standards of people wasn't important. People living in Soviet
          block were slaves of that tyrrany. And believe me it had affected the way we
          live now seriously. You don't know what is soviet mentality but be patient. The
          change of current situation will take some time - 20-30 years- generation
          change.
          And as I said I agree with you but bear in my mind that Polish nation works
          hard to improve it. Economy is developing, Polish people entered EU as they
          wanted which is a sign of their aspirations, etc...
          Just be realist about your expectations and wait. However thanks for reminding,
          for some Polish people it is annoying but other people are also concerned about
          things you mentioned.
          Cheers
          • plectrum Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 18:39
            hrydz napisał:

            > Call down boys, each of you has some right. Our German friends possibly is
            > right that he complains about standard of things he mentioned. I had
            > a "plesure" to work with Polish soviet administration and know how public
            > sector shity it.
            > But Poles have as well some logic arguments. If youy notice Poland after war
            > did not have chance for a proper development as it was in soviet zone of
            > control. As you know for Soviet Union power meant huge army and will to attack
            > west. The living standards of people wasn't important. People living in Soviet
            > block were slaves of that tyrrany. And believe me it had affected the way we
            > live now seriously. You don't know what is soviet mentality but be patient. The
            >
            > change of current situation will take some time - 20-30 years- generation
            > change.
            > And as I said I agree with you but bear in my mind that Polish nation works
            > hard to improve it. Economy is developing, Polish people entered EU as they
            > wanted which is a sign of their aspirations, etc...
            > Just be realist about your expectations and wait. However thanks for reminding,
            >
            > for some Polish people it is annoying but other people are also concerned about
            >
            > things you mentioned.
            > Cheers


            I absolutely agree with you. BUT: I'm not asking why the situation in Poland is
            as it is. I understand it. What I'm asking is: Is Poland a good choice for me
            and my family? I consider it from a point of view of someone who is able to live
            almost every country in Europe, specially the leading ones. Why do so many Poles
            leave their country?
            • hrydz Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 18:48
              In that case no because I understand that things you are complaning about are
              one of the most important to you. But it is your choice of course. Consider
              what good can our country give and what can spoil and just make a decision.
              And Poles are leaving country as the average salary is much higher in the West
              and it is very easy way to earn money in few years and then go back buy flats
              cars, invest in small businesses etc. You live in Poland and possibly can see
              the difference easily.
              But to be honest we can replace workers who left country with workforce from
              former Soviet Union. I am rather concerned about young well qualified people.
              But many of them will go back. Borders are opened you can travel across Europe
              as you want smile
              By the way Poles are everywhere... smile They always move smile Interesting smile
        • maciejous Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 19:04
          Dear Uber-Inteligent Plectrum,
          thank you for stooping to my level - I really appreciate it.
          Your attitude as a foreigner is really impresive. I wouldn't be so brave (or
          rude) if I were in your shoes. Actually I am - I am Polishman in Ireland.
          Please do not express yourself about my intelligence, beacuse I don't give a
          damn about your opinion and your not able to give me any feedback.
          Returning to my being in Ireland - there is a lot of things to complain. Health
          care is much more worse than it is in POland. In fact - its terrible - every
          Irish would tell you that. (Often perscription for stomakache is to dring seven
          up. Equipment is really bad).
          But - I would never, ever say, that these doctors could only clean polish
          hospitals or sth like that.
          Of course polish dentists are good if you pay good. Imagine yourself working
          hard without being paid enough. Would you be effective? I doubt it.
          That is why the service level is not satisfying for you. THis is simple. Is
          this so difficult to understand for self-appointed inteligent??

          Regards

      • kylie1 Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 01:30
        yet another off topic response that has nothing to do with the original
        question.
        Dentist are cheaper, Maciejous, land is cheaper and therefore the best
        investment as far as real estate goes! Everything practically is cheaper and
        you should know that. Had I lived any closer I would have had my teeth cleaned
        and checked up in POland as well. I would send off my entire family and then
        tip off my neigbors to do the same. It won't be like that forever, so why not
        to invest NOW before the prices go up.
        Common sense...
    • usaf Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 22:41
      you are kidding, right ???
      anyway children cant see a difference esp. if they are generally of good health.
      I grew up in Poland and when I left I was shocked to see how many kids in the
      west had problems with their respiratory system.
      I consider myself lucky to have grown up in PL. its organic food and pretty
      clean environment in northern Poland made me strong. ok, my mom had me take
      tons of vitamins and all kinds of alternative stuff wink
    • merlott Re: Family and children in Poland 03.02.06, 23:57
      hi Plectrum,

      I'm Polish, I've lived in Netherlands for the last 3 years, I'm a mother of 2
      years old daughter which was born here, in Netherlands.

      What I would like to say to you is that every country is DIFFERENT. and in
      every country there are good and bad things. and it is really up to you, how do
      you want to open your mind....

      I think when we become a parent we start to be more frightened about
      everything. and because we want to give the best to our children,, we lose the
      objectivity.

      you see, now, in NL, I have exactly the same questions you have in PL. I do not
      like plenty of things here and I have the felling, that my home country, PL, is
      much better. But this is only my private perception. I'm pretty certain that
      all Dutch people would say sth different.

      I fully agree with you that giving the birth in PL is a disaster. I fully agree
      that crossing the road is quite a challange...
      in terms of medical care - yes, it is true you need to go to the private one to
      have the proper treatment. but at least you have those private one. here, in
      NL, I have only my family doctor. I do not have any private service. So, I do
      not have any options. If I'm not satisfied with my family doctor, I just need
      to accept that. I thing it is much worst, isn't it?

      In terms of education I think you should not be worry about your child. Polish
      system is on a very high level. Well, at least primary school and secondary
      school. In terms of study - I doubt.

      As a conclusion - the perfect country doesn't exist. There are good and bad
      things everywhere. and as a small advice - you should stop compare PL and GE,
      just try to be open to everything what is good in PL. And there is plenty of
      those things. smile)))))

      I wish you all the best.. and to be more optimistic...and believe a little bit
      more in Poland!

      all the best
      Aneta
    • kylie1 Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 01:16
      Hello Plectrum,

      Welcome to the forum and apologies for Waldek, the idiot.

      I do understand your concerns. Speeding drivers on crosswalks is totally
      unacceptable. Here in Canada we have tons of crosswalk guards to assure safety
      for kids going to or coming from school. Our system is set up to protect the
      yougest ones and fines can get really hefty if you don't slow down, let alone
      stop.
      I have raised 3 kids here and it's always been of utmost importance to me and
      other parents that our kids are safe...street or playground. I would think in a
      few years from now you will probably see a lot more "child-friendly" changes
      but it still might be a while away.

      All the best,

      kylie smile
    • ejmarkow Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 01:19
      Plectrum,

      The fact that you use such low level words as 'sh*t' and 'f*ck' on a peaceful
      forum such as this one, makes me wonder as to what level intelligence you have
      attained. On the contrary to what you have said, Polish doctors, heart
      surgeons, plastic surgeons, dentists, nurses, and much more...have already made
      an excellent reputation long ago in the west. They work in the West simply
      because the salary is better. And you must not discount the German and Russian
      occupation of Poland during and prior to the 2nd world war...Poland was
      demolished physically and socially during both periods. Poland must remember
      such events, just as others remember their suffering during the war. Post world
      war 2 saw Germany, the Axis, receiving a generous provision from the Marshall
      Plan, and Poland, falling under Russian rule as well, was impoverished amd
      received absolutely nothing. No other country in all of Europe suffered as much
      as Poland, and you wonder why playgrounds are made of metal? You should really
      be ashamed to ask such a question, being a German. My mother was born in a
      small village in Poland, and she remembers, to her discomfort, both the German
      and Russian occupations of Poland. Poles were murdered, raped, robbed, beaten,
      tortured, and sent to Siberia and the gulags. It seems that only Norman Davies,
      in the west, can very well document the suffering of the Poles and Poland. You
      should examine history a little bit better. Perhaps one day, you will
      understand the facts.

      Eugene
        • ejmarkow Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 01:53
          Kylie1,

          It's not a dead horse when there are opposing opinions on the subject. Poland
          suffered very much. Remember, Poland was only free after 1990. Most Western
          European countries were free right after WWII. So, Poland basically had
          approximately 15 years to position herself up to Western standards? Kylie, when
          individuals remember the holocaust, is that beating a dead horse? I think those
          who suffered the most have every right to remember.

          Eugene
          • gryzimira Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 02:06
            I need to agree with Kylie1. Anyone in Poland is forced to remember history and
            how miserably we were treated by all these other western european countries. I
            can't understand, why can't we talk about the question raised by a new,
            concerned parent who was not spoon-fed polish martilology...
            We are not in Iran, so we cannot deny that holocaust happened. I lost my family
            members too. However, if you want to discuss who is a better historian and who
            is to blame for all these bad things that happened to our country, start
            another forum. Call it - Polish History 101, of course everything would be
            capitlized...
            • ejmarkow Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 02:22
              Grzimira,

              Many individuals must understand, Poland has only recently been 'free' since
              1990. Poland was annihilated during WWII, and then brutally occupied by Soviet-
              Russian forces after the war for the next 50 years or so. She lost most of her
              Eastern territories only to be given (by the Russians) a part of Eastern
              Germany. Then, most Poles in 'Kresy' had to be either killed, deported to
              Siberia, or relocated in the newly claimed territories of Eastern Germany. So,
              in essence, Poland is a very young democracy...a new country. How can one
              expect Poland to live up to similar standards of Germany under such conditions?
              This is a valid answer to that particular question. History must not be
              forgotten.

              Eugene
              • gryzimira Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 02:36
                I do understand. I went through the entire education process in Poland, and
                believe me nobody is given even a slight chance not to remember WWII or any
                other disaster that happened to us.
                I am only a bit annoyed with the fact that instead of answering the question of
                a young person, people focus on lecturing him about the horrible things our
                country experienced in the past. I am proud of my country, and I am expecting
                the best from it, just like any other responsible citizen would. To me, it is
                almost like being a good parent. It is tough love to expect the best qualities
                from yourself and your kids, but by the end of the day it is extremely
                rewarding.
          • kylie1 Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 02:31


            Hello there Eugene,

            Well, in that sense the horse will never be dead because I don't think most of
            us will ever forget about it as long as we live. I also believe that most
            Germans unfortunately will have to somehow live with that stigma for as long as
            the world remembers. I don't necessarily think we need to rub it any chnace we
            get to explain why kids playgrounds are not fenced. My father lost his younger
            brother in a gas chamber and he still suffers terribly from that
            experience...an 86 year old man. Therefore our entire family suffered with him.
            It affected everone of us in more than one ways. I have those stories, you do,
            and the rest of us who have ever had any relatives in Poland.
            It's a young democracy and it will most definitely improve with time. Asking
            about simple fenced yards and crosswalks should not always lead to digging up
            facts from WWII.
            • ejmarkow Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 02:40
              kylie1,

              Frankly, I'm amazed that Poland looks this beautiful considering the suffering
              and wars inflicted upon her. Poles have truly rebuilt their country from
              scratch, starting with the most immediate necessities...housing and other
              important facilities. Poland is a living history book...every centimeter of
              this country has a story to tell. After WWII, the Polish authorities
              concentrated only on necessities. This is still visible until today.

              Eugene
              • kylie1 Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 02:59
                > Frankly, I'm amazed that Poland looks this beautiful considering the
                suffering
                > and wars inflicted upon her.

                I know. Many people tell me exactly the same thing. I bet in a few years we
                won't have to explaon why the fences are not up yet or why crosswalks are being
                disregarded. I always look at all the new pictures of POland that I find on the
                internet and I can't believe it myself!

                smile
            • russh Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 09:39
              > It affected everone of us in more than one ways. I have those stories, you do,
              > and the rest of us who have ever had any relatives in Poland.
              > It's a young democracy and it will most definitely improve with time. Asking
              > about simple fenced yards and crosswalks should not always lead to digging up
              > facts from WWII

              Good post Kylie. Unfortunately we have been sidetracked again by Waldek, but the
              replies (following his post) have been inevitable.
    • gryzimira Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 03:05
      I have got involved into a discussion about polish history, but what i really
      wanted to do was to answer your message.
      i am currently living in the usa, and i can't say that i would like to stay
      here forever, and ever, and ever. in fact, it seems it is much harder to live
      here than back home, in poland. you are right our system of socialized medicine
      can be pretty frustrating, but at least everybody deserves some degree of
      medical care. here, even if you have insurance, you need co-pay thousands of
      dollars in case you get sick, or you have a baby. what is even more frustrating
      though is lack of any real family life. here, people move out from their homes
      when they go to college and then they meet their parents/grandparents once or
      twice a year for christmas or thanksgiving... i don't want my children to live
      in this pretty empty and isolated environment without their grandparents,
      aunts, uncles and little cousins.
      My plan is to go back to poland and raise my children over there. they will
      have more than just two over-worked parents to take care of them. they will
      have plenty of people to tell them about the history of their country, customs,
      and things they can be proud of. true, the economic site of that kind of move
      is pretty dreadful, but one needs to raise the question, what is the most
      important thing they want to teach their kids. i want them to be good,
      respectful people, and i know that my family and friends in poland are going to
      help me to do just that.
      congratulations on your new baby, and good luck in making all these new, and
      important decisions. i hope you do what your heart tells is the best for you,
      and your family.
      • russh Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 09:42
        what is even more frustrating
        >
        > though is lack of any real family life. here

        This is one of my complaints about current Poland! I would suggest that it is a
        global 'Western' problem, and deserving of a thread on its own.
    • plectrum Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 16:53

      Thank you for the answers to my post.

      For "friends of history":

      It's astonishing how many Poles are very touchy about history. If I were from
      let's say Portugal, and had written exacly the same things what would you say to
      me?
      Lack of forgivness, blaming and hate lead to violence and another war. Is it so
      hard to understand? Why are you throwing stones at me? I have not killed no Pole
      nor anybody.
      Here a story from a small Bavarian village I used to live in: Right after war
      three polish forced labourer were on their way back to Poland. Their way led
      through this villege. They went to a farm, raped and killed a pregnant woman and
      killed her husband. They stole what they could carry with them. Next day they
      were catched by the american military police. They were convicted to death by an
      american miltary court and hung.
      • hayek1 Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 20:35
        The fact that you brought this story up now is not surprising after what a few
        of my fellow Poles wrote in this thread.

        However, the fact that you even *heard* about this incident is just so German.
        I'm sure this tale will be passed from generation to generation for centuries in
        your hometown - the bad Poles came and stole from us and raped our women. big_grin Oh,
        how pathetic you are over there...

        Not that our friend Waldek isn't pathetic, of course.
            • gurak Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 22:24
              usenetposts napisał:

              > gurak napisał:
              >
              > > plectrum germans are not the most favourite nationality here. Just look a
              > t my
              > > signature!
              >
              > But do you like Ratzinger, though? That's the burning question, if you'll
              > pardon the historical illusion....

              Rat_in _Ger(many). For all rats I keep a mousetrap even for the most rogue
              german ones smile)
        • usenetposts Re: Family and children in Poland 04.02.06, 21:53
          hayek1 napisał:

          > The fact that you brought this story up now is not surprising after what a few
          > of my fellow Poles wrote in this thread.
          >
          > However, the fact that you even *heard* about this incident is just so German.
          > I'm sure this tale will be passed from generation to generation for centuries
          i
          > n
          > your hometown - the bad Poles came and stole from us and raped our women. big_grin
          Oh
          > ,
          > how pathetic you are over there...
          >
          > Not that our friend Waldek isn't pathetic, of course.


          "Hayek", eh?

          Give my regards to your sister.

          (Well, one can always dream, eh?)
      • bugsior Re: Family and children in Poland 17.02.06, 06:44
        hey, i'm a pole myself and believe me, the majority of us is well beyond the point of recalling wwII and
        other events.

        and war is a really controversial issue. my granmother worked in german ammo factory when she was
        14 and my grandfather was forced to build fortifications on german eastern front. germans were
        obvious occupiers, but my grandparents never gave in to any senseless emotions.

        no worries plectrum, waldek is kind of crazy.
    • scand Re: Family and children in Poland 06.02.06, 11:35
      Take it from experience of other people. It's not impossible to have children
      in Poland and most of them are healthy enough to adulthood age. Probably it's
      not so good place for raising children like e.g Sweden but it's not critical.
      Be hard smile
    • comrade Re: Family and children in Poland 07.02.06, 11:19
      You're absolutely right on most things. But please note that Poland is still
      less developed country than Germany - purchasing power ratio pl-ger is like 1-3
      and this is the answer to most of your troubles: Simply not enough money to
      provide service level on par with german one. It needs few decades of general
      economy development, when people get wealthier the country will get wealthier so
      budget will have more money and all public services will improve. The fact you
      pay much (thus require much) doesnt change the fact that globally Poland is
      still under-developped. It needs time. Ditto for tax benefits for having kids -
      Ponad has other priorities, we need motorways, investments in infrastructure to
      catch up with developed coutnries, when we're rich then probably the welfare
      system will become more generous. Dont forget that Poland for 45 years was
      trying to implement communist utopia and lost that time which now results in
      relatively low development level. Another thing is damage that socialism caused
      to mindset of people. Western Germans after the war developed capitalist economy
      which promotes work ethics, reliability, creativity, responsibility and other
      positive perks. The same for political and social areas, where normal democracy
      shaped the society in a good way. In Poland, for 45 yrs, communism promoted
      laziness, slugishness, lack of responsibility (I'd risk a thesis that this can
      be an explanation for bad behaviour on the road or incidents of unfriendly
      behaviour of hostpital staff) etc. while political one-party system learned us
      that government doesnt represent anyone, cannot be trusted at all, and law is
      here to break it (this is an explanation for lack of responsibility of dog's
      owners (i.e. not cleaning their shit which is against the regulations)). What
      else should I say as a Pole living here? I can only agree and defend my country
      reputation smile saying that Poland AD 2006 is several times better than AD 1990
      and hundred times better than AD 1980, and despite of all problems and stupidity
      of our politicians (well, politicians paradoxically are considered stupid in
      most democracies, even those wealthiest ones smile) we seem to follow the good
      direction. It only needs time of normality, which we didn't happen to have after
      1945. Please consider this.

      PS: i'd not want my kid's head meet with see-saw regardless of material it's
      made of smile Metal or wood does not make much of a difference smile)
    • mats1 Re: Family and children in Poland 07.02.06, 12:21
      plectrum,

      I'm Polish but born and partly raised abroad. Lived in Sweden, Holland, USA and
      presently living and working in Switzerland.
      I feal really sorry for all these bashers on this forum and that you can not
      receive a normal answer to your question without that stupid hate in their
      posts. Bear in mind most of those are people that did not manage to achieve
      anything in their life and need to blame all their mishaps on some-thing/one.

      Anyway, back to your question -
      I think all depends what choice you have and if you can choose from living in
      Western Europe or Poland, then you will certainly profit from better day to day
      life abroad. All is however money related.
      Of course there are good private schools that are very cheap (elementary
      schools in Gdansk are about EUR150/month) but then you have the problem outside
      the school. Fully agree with the Health Care and Driving.
      In the hospiotal you should have paid all the staff around your Girlfirend in
      order to get friendly and normal treatment. That's how it works in Poland and
      everybody accepts it as there is this polish problem that a doctor and nurses
      need to be paid extra...
      Now, when you paid only for the Family Birth but to the Hospital, that money
      did not reach the staff directly and that's why they treated you bad.
      Bear in mind that many of the Polish Nurses work in England and Germany (German
      nurses are very popular in Switzerland) smile and have great reputation.
      The Driving is another issue - no one stops at the crosswalk, neither for kids,
      as you mentioned. I know because whenever I travel to Poland, i usually fly to
      Warsaw or Berlin and rent a car from there to be independent.
      The moment you stop in order to let some people go, you get honked from the
      back and people get really angree with you. I don't care but can imagine a lot
      of people from civilised countries are scared with that behaviour.
      I had now the option to go to Beijing or New Delhi for abt 2 years but dropped
      it because my Wife said she will not join me with our Daughter. (My Wife is
      Polish).
      So if you have the choice, it's up to you and your family to decide. Sometimes
      ther isnot much to decide because the company sends you somewhere. The profit
      then is the money.
      I anyway like Poland and visit it abt once or twice a year.
      Great parties, nice landscapes, nice people (yes, there are plenty of new
      breed, young very friendly service people) and of course for people working
      abroad, still cheap but that's a personal taste.
      Much also depends on your income, if you're paid European salary and live in
      Poland, then the salary will buy you a much nicer life in Poland than in
      Germany. You will then also have enough money for private hospitals (there is
      one in Warsaw and one in Gdansk, not sure what they do there), good schools and
      nice place to live, with a nice playground, pool and so on.
    • mwanginjagi Re: Family and children in Poland 09.02.06, 12:16
      Plectrum,

      ha ha ha ... well, you have a very legitimate question to ask. The truth be
      said, childhood is the most important stage in a human's life because it folds
      his Character and determines how he/she will be able to handle life.. so you
      must be very dilligent when it comes to the experiences your kids have when
      young.

      With that said.. It is paramount for you to interact with other foreigners in
      Poland who have families and see how they do it. There are private schools
      designed to cater for Foreigners kids esp. In Warsaw... International school is
      a good one... besides the healthcare system and the other stuff... I think you
      should be on the lookout for your kids.. it can be dangerous out there. About
      drivers and all... LOL, yea, don't get your kid in the streets alone...

      But seriously, you should consult with other foreginers and your embassy for
      help in this area.

      All the best for you and your family

      Regards
    • nearlypolish Re: Family and children in Poland 15.02.06, 20:19
      I've never lived in Germany so I can't say what its like, but I'm from the UK &
      although Polish hospitals are grim & staffed by sometimes
      unfriendly 'pielengarki' & could do with a bit of modernisation, I will say
      that the care/surgery is generally high. My first son was born here in Warsaw,
      my second in England. I like the Polish idea that you had to wear the overcoat
      & shoe covers (helps prevent outside infections getting in to hospitals). In UK
      they have very high % of infections within the hospitals, some of which are
      fatal & do not respond to anti-biotics. So, Poland in the lead there.
      ZUS & Tax in Poland is high, too high...thats why so many people work in
      the 'gray zone'.
      Your point on road speeds.....I absolutely agree. The Polish person in a car is
      probably the most selfish person in Europe & close to being the most stupid.
      Very bad roads (even in Warsaw), very badly lit & poorly signed, together with
      the selfish Poles (not all but a large percentage) make for very dangerous
      roads. They have absolutely no courtesy. However, its better now thatn 12 years
      ago! I always stopped at Zebra crossings for kids & others much to the
      annoyance of the Polish car driver....but over last few years I have noticed
      more & more people following my example, hopefully Poland will continue to
      improve. Playgrounds also improving...don't know where you live but in Warsaw
      they are quite good & quite well looked after. The problem with dog
      shit....maybe us none dog owners should be allowed to pick up the shit & throw
      it at the owner who didn't pick it up....again...selfish people who want a dog
      but don't want to clean up its shit!
      Man...Poland is a bit of a shithole but improving, UK is a shithole & getting
      worse (for fucks sake even gays can now get married & adopt children)..Germany
      also has its problems...I'm sure you know better than I.
      At least the infestation of paedophiles is much lower here than in UK, so I
      feel it's better here for my kids than UK.

      I & my kids are staying here. To give them the best childhood possible? Thats
      what we all want...but it's a dream that can not exist unless you're very, very
      rich!

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