Do You open the door for women?

19.02.06, 15:33
Though some people may not like this the concept of equal rights between men
and women is now an established concept within the European Union and all
member states must accept this principle.

The enormous wealth in our region means that marriage is no longer the basic
economic fundament in society – or at least it doesn’t need to be. More and
more people choose to live alone or create one-parent families. Even in
Poland. The character of jobs has changed – machines do the hard physical
work and nothing indicates that female brains make them unfit to take up the
position of an accountant or a lawyer. Efficient birth control gives every
woman the possibility to decide when and if she wants children – and one or
two maternity leaves should not be able to destroy a career – especially as
many men now also take maternity leave.

Now – people are different. Some may prefer traditional roles, and it is far
from my viewpoint to force these people to do something against their will.
But when people are in a public room then we are all equal today. Like it or
not – the public room is unisex.

This is where we come to Polish habits of opening doors, letting women first
through a door or even worse – hand kissing, though this thanks Allah-Jahve-
Budda seems to be disappearing. It’s a paternalistic reminiscence from a past
era and it’s an insult to women. When a man opens a door to a women he really
tells her: “Look – I’m stronger and more intelligent than You, so this is why
I’ll protect You”. It’s simply a lack of respect for the achievements of the
past century.

Quite a few woman would probably disagree with me and claim that they think
it’s nice that guys open the doors for them. I also think it would be nice if
people opened doors for me, but not if I should pay with my self-respect and
put myself in a nice-little-girl (or boy) role.
    • ms.jones Re: Do You open the door for women? 19.02.06, 21:17
      This is where we come to Polish habits of opening doors, letting women first
      > through a door or even worse – hand kissing,

      Do they still do it? As you say, it's a Polish habit, should Poles abandon
      their cultural habits now they are in the EU? The French aren't any less
      French, the Spanish are still Spanish, maintaining regional identities is
      actually encouraged and celebrated. So what's the problem with Polish habits in
      Poland?

      > But when people are in a public room then we are all equal today.
      Equal but not the same.

      It’s a paternalistic reminiscence from a
      > past era and it’s an insult to women.

      Cultural habits usually are from the past era smile Have any women actually told
      you they felt insulted?

      >
      When a man opens a door to a woman he really tells her: “Look – I’m stronger
      and more intelligent than You so this is why I’ll protect You”. >

      Could it mean something else - say:
      - routine behaviour, that's the way he's been brought up? ...ladies first?
      - What a looker! How can I get her attention?
      - Hopefully she/her company will do business with me, I'll be a gent and show
      good manners. ... or a dozen other reasons depending on the man or the woman?

      Or do you mean YOU really think 'I'm superior/stronger and more intelligent
      than you, so there, I'll open the door for you," and that's why you say this is
      what men think?

      I'm happy to hold the door open for anyone who has their hands full; man, woman
      or child. It doesn't cost anything. smile

      You know, men still earn more than women for doing the same work; a father is
      screwed by the law when it comes to children if his marriage breaks up - that's
      something more important for the equal rights agenda.

      Hand kissing, opening doors... so what? I'm sure Polish women can communicate
      to their men how they want to be treated. I'm sure their men will do what's
      good for them wink You're not Polish, so be different.

      English husbands/boyfriends I've met do a lot more round the house than men
      from my parents' generation ever did, and they truly were of the old school
      with hand kissing etc. But I knew ONE woman who didn't have a full time job as
      I was growing up. The past you know is probably different and feminist
      achievements mean different things to the society you come from. Different
      groups, different issues, different relevance of achievements.
      Has anyone given you hard time for not opening doors or something?

      • usenetposts Re: Do You open the door for women? 19.02.06, 23:26
        I will certainly treat women with every courtesy, but I consider that hand-
        kissing is a little too flirtatious. If a bunch of other chaps have just done
        it, then I will follow suite, but I would prefer not to initiate it in order
        not to open the door to misconceptions.

        When I was in Russia I worked with some very prominent stars in the world of
        TV, and I did it a bit there because you could really see how these people
        lapped it up, and it was a good way to get right in their good books.

        The Russians imagined I imported that from England though, rather than Poland.
        In England the habit has gone by the board.

        In Hungary I know it is de rigeuer to say "kezet czokolom" when greeting a
        female, but from what I could observe, saying "I kiss your hand", ie
        virtualising it, has largely replaced the actual act of doing it - is that the
        case, Ervin?
        • bartis_ervin Re: Do You open the door for women? 20.02.06, 09:01

          Yes, you are right Dave. Although I would say "kezet csokolom" only to an old
          lady. I don't know why... In other cases I avoid using it.

          In Romanian it is the same: "sarut mana" ("sara'mana"), which as I noticed
          during my stay in Bucharest, it is quite often used. Often I felt the pressure
          to use it otherwise I might come across as rude.

          Ervin

          Thebartiski.blogspot.com
    • ejmarkow Re: Do You open the door for women? 20.02.06, 08:17
      Yes, I do open the door for a woman out of pure etiquette, courtesy, respect,
      habit, and tradition. It actually applies to anyone, including for children. It
      has nothing to do with being stronger or more superior. Even when I was working
      in New York City and commuting to work every morning, I couldn't help but
      notice that most men were also opening or holding open the door for women when
      entering our building, or when walking through the confines of Grand Central
      Station, and many other places. How many of you (men) remember going on that
      date and gently opening and closing the car door for your girlfriend? How many
      of you do the same for your wife, if married? It's not only a "Polish" habit or
      custom, but done in most parts of the world. Hand kissing, however, seems
      distinctly Polish and is something I haven't practiced. smile

      Regards,

      Eugene


      Regards,

      Eugene
    • waldek1610 You've been hanging around ugly feminist too much? 20.02.06, 10:04
      For your information; Poles will kiss women's hands, French will continue to
      watch lame erotic movies and Italians will have the meat of the bone,
      regardless what limitations and rules some Euro-burocrat has sweated out in his
      brains.

      The Communist regime of Polish People Republic have tried to plan what sexual
      positions a women in socialist country should prefer, it has tried to make
      people stop revering the God... no suprise they have failed at it.

      I believe with your socio/cultural engineering ideas you would fit more in
      Chinesse People Republic...not the civilized World.

      PS. Now everything that is new is nesseserly better, some customs that
      originated in the past will survive because they serve public and individuals
      better.
      • ianek70 Re: You've been hanging around ugly feminist too 21.02.06, 12:50
        waldek1610 napisał:

        > For your information; Poles will kiss women's hands,

        In Chicago, perhaps.

        > French will continue to
        > watch lame erotic movies

        Do you know any French people? Have you ever been to France?

        > and Italians will have the meat of the bone,

        Whatever.

        > The Communist regime of Polish People Republic have tried to plan what sexual
        > positions a women in socialist country should prefer,

        Bollocks, although apparently the Vatican had a similar idea, which also failed.
        Are all the feminists you know ugly, or is that just another boring stereotype
        you heard on Radio Ma Ryja?
        • waldek1610 Re: You've been hanging around ugly feminist too 21.02.06, 23:11
          ianek70 napisał:

          > waldek1610 napisał:
          >
          > > For your information; Poles will kiss women's hands,
          >
          > In Chicago, perhaps.

          Is President Kaczynski and tons of other notable Poles all living in Chicago?

          > > French will continue to
          > > watch lame erotic movies
          >
          > Do you know any French people? Have you ever been to France?

          OK, did "Emanuelle" series recorded itself or was it created by French
          cinematography?

          > > and Italians will have the meat of the bone,
          >
          > Whatever.

          I didn't suspect you knew anything about Italians culinary tastes...

          > > The Communist regime of Polish People Republic have tried to plan what
          > > sexualpositions a women in socialist country should prefer,
          >
          > Bollocks, although apparently the Vatican had a similar idea, which also
          >failed.

          ??? I beg your pardon?

          > Are all the feminists you know ugly, or is that just another boring
          >stereotype you heard on Radio Ma Ryja?

          What don't you like about Radio Maryja? Perhaps that it gives voice to 90% of
          Poland's polulation- underpriviliged poor and without means. Maybe because you
          don't like when people complain about social injustice, that the SLD/Organized
          Crime/Left cronies....pets (dog and cats) have a bigger anuall budget than
          regular polish family?
    • ianek70 Different ways of showing respect 21.02.06, 12:43
      Most Scottish women (although not all, and it depends on their age) would feel
      stupid if you made a special effort to hold a door open for them.
      You go through a door, and if there's someone behind you, you hold it open. If
      someone's hands are full, you hold the door. At least I do, because I'm nice
      and I like to help people.
      Generally, by holding a door open for someone, you're implying that they can't
      do it themselves. They're old and weak, or they're children, or else they're
      adults carrying large boxes. Holding a door open for an adult woman is
      patronising.
      In Poland, though, women usually expect this.
      In Poland, you show respect to people by being cold and keeping distance, in
      Scotland you show someone respect by treating them as an equal.
      You call a Polish bus driver "pan", and he'd be offended if you called
      him "stary" or "chłopie". In Scotland, you call him "pal" or "mate", and if you
      called him "sir" he'd think you were being sarcastic, and he'd probably stab
      you.
      • usenetposts Re: Different ways of showing respect 21.02.06, 17:25
        ianek70 napisał:

        > Most Scottish women (although not all, and it depends on their age) would
        feel
        > stupid if you made a special effort to hold a door open for them.
        > You go through a door, and if there's someone behind you, you hold it open.
        If
        > someone's hands are full, you hold the door. At least I do, because I'm nice
        > and I like to help people.
        > Generally, by holding a door open for someone, you're implying that they
        can't
        > do it themselves. They're old and weak, or they're children, or else they're
        > adults carrying large boxes. Holding a door open for an adult woman is
        > patronising.
        > In Poland, though, women usually expect this.
        > In Poland, you show respect to people by being cold and keeping distance, in
        > Scotland you show someone respect by treating them as an equal.
        > You call a Polish bus driver "pan", and he'd be offended if you called
        > him "stary" or "chłopie". In Scotland, you call him "pal" or "mate", and if
        you
        >
        > called him "sir" he'd think you were being sarcastic, and he'd probably stab
        > you.

        What was that Glaswegian word for an edge weapon again, by the way?
        • ianek70 Re: Different ways of showing respect 21.02.06, 18:05
          usenetposts napisał:

          > What was that Glaswegian word for an edge weapon again, by the way?

          Chib?
          The dictionary definition is a knife or other bladed implement used for
          chibbing someone, but in Glasgow it can refer to almost any unsophisticated
          weaponry.
          In Paisley it usually means some form of blunt instrument.
          This may lead to hilarious mix-ups and misunderstandings, but I doubt it.

          I think it's cognate with the Scandinavian word "kip", meaning a stick,
          although I could be wrong.
          • usenetposts Re: Different ways of showing respect 21.02.06, 18:56
            ianek70 napisał:

            > usenetposts napisał:
            >
            > > What was that Glaswegian word for an edge weapon again, by the way?
            >
            > Chib?
            > The dictionary definition is a knife or other bladed implement used for
            > chibbing someone, but in Glasgow it can refer to almost any unsophisticated
            > weaponry.
            > In Paisley it usually means some form of blunt instrument.
            > This may lead to hilarious mix-ups and misunderstandings, but I doubt it.
            >
            > I think it's cognate with the Scandinavian word "kip", meaning a stick,
            > although I could be wrong.

            The full essay I was thinking of I found again under "weapons" on

            www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/
            You were right about "chib", but I was thinking of "stakey", and that as I
            remember now means something else.


            - Uncle Davey's Homepage -
            :: Foreigners Living in Poland Forum
          • usenetposts Re: Different ways of showing respect 21.02.06, 18:59
            > I think it's cognate with the Scandinavian word "kip", meaning a stick,
            > although I could be wrong.

            You may be right, but I am more convinced that it shares an etymology with this
            word - (if you read the article you will see why):

            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiv_%28weapon%29--

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            :: Foreigners Living in Poland Forum
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