Destruction of an icon

28.02.06, 17:53
Dear members of the forum,
Please sign your name and state your protest to demolition of a cultural icon
of Warsaw- the first self-serve Supersam. The city is trying to demolish this
20th century architectural icon to build another shimmering glass office
building. People who really care about the history of the city are trying to
have the building listed as a 20h century historic building.
Please visit the link and vote. Thanks.
www.sztuka.net.pl/palio/html.run?_Instance=www.sztuka.net.pl&_PageID=683&_RowID=1&_TopID=1186&_MidID=1187&_BotID=1188&_CheckSum=-1305626122
    • usenetposts Re: Destruction of an icon 28.02.06, 18:12
      I am all in favour of supporting the maintenance of heritage and the communist
      period was an important period in Poland's history and all Europe's history,
      and I never want to see the day when we remove all traces of it in the way
      which has been done to the Berlin wall, for example.

      HOWEVER

      In my opinion you haven't given us all of the information, which is this first
      Supersam? Whereabouts is it and why are the authorities trying to demolish it?
      How much would a renovation cost, how many schools places and hospital beds
      will it buy and are there no other more fitting reminders of communist period
      architecture?

      I would like answers to those questions, and then I will be able to fill in the
      petition of support with a good conscience and without feeling intellectually
      dishonest.
      • brutt Re: Destruction of an icon 28.02.06, 22:23
        Hi Dave,
        Thanks for your reply to my post.

        First and foremost I would like to state that this building does not represent
        “Communist architecture” but is one of few examples of mid-century modern
        architecture that we have in Poland. This building was not politically-inspired.
        That’s one reason why it is so special. Not everything that was made in Poland
        during SOCIALIST times is “Communist architecture”. This building was described
        in international architecture magazines of the non-socialist countries. In this
        instance, foregone era of socialist politics has nothing to do with preservation
        of this unique building.
        I will try to find a link with info on the building so you can read up on it.
        Thanks
        • usenetposts Re: Destruction of an icon 01.03.06, 00:15
          brutt napisał:

          > Hi Dave,
          > Thanks for your reply to my post.

          Pleasure. Thank you for bringing the topic to this Forum. We like all sorts of
          interesting topics here.

          >
          > First and foremost I would like to state that this building does not represent
          > “Communist architecture” but is one of few examples of mid-century
          > modern architecture that we have in Poland.

          Nevertheless, you have to admit, this building would not look even slightly out
          of place in the VDNKh in Moscow. That's not a negative point by the way. But
          you can see the same steel curves in this building as you can see in the
          Kosmonauts' statue, and a number of other structures around the Ostankino area
          and other areas.

          > This building was not politically-inspired

          Mnnn. But nevertheless, it emerged out of the need to react against a problem
          that had emerged from a political system. And then the very idea that the first
          self service supermarket has to be a state funded piece of show case
          architecture by the same team as brought the Stadion Dziesieciolecia - you just
          wouldn't get that in the West - now I will grant you that some of the new towns
          of England rebuilt hastily after the War years ALSO had a number of things done
          in those style, which aged rather quickly and soon got a rather
          slummy "fifties" look, and in most cases have already been replaced by modern
          malls - regrettably in my opinion, as of course they have a huge sentimental
          value - but in this case you cannot say that the architecture is not political.
          pardon me for the structuralist approach, but there is always going to be some
          political angle in any piece of architecture, even if it indirect.

          The political context of this building is self evident, to any one who studied
          the ways of what you call the socialist system.

          And this is what I glean from the article you post in the separate post you
          gave, that and the fact that now I see it I am familiar with it and I've been
          in it a few times.


          > That’s one reason why it is so special. Not everything that was made in
          > Poland
          > during SOCIALIST times is “Communist architecture”.

          Maybe not to the degree that the Palac of Culture is clearly a communist icon,
          but I still maintain that the political context is clearly visible on this
          building. Even the social areas for staff referred to in the article. Look
          for "social areas for staff" in a modern mall - you'll find them smoking on the
          stairwell.

          > This building was described
          > in international architecture magazines of the non-socialist countries. In
          this
          > instance, foregone era of socialist politics has nothing to do with
          preservatio
          > n
          > of this unique building.

          Well, you say that, but in fact that would be an argument IN FAVOUR of keeping
          it. Just as it is an argument IN FAVOUR of keeping the Palace of Culture.

          The pure sentimental value of a building is never regarded as a good reason, as
          every building that was ever pulled down is missed, often sorely, by some
          people. A stronger argument is that is IS a reflection of an interesting time
          in Poland's history, and had Poland had a different history, it would not have
          had quite this building fulfilling quite this role.

          > I will try to find a link with info on the building so you can read up on it.
          > Thanks
          >

          OK, I read that excellent article. Thank you for your contribution.

          I'll vote in favour of keeping it. You'll be able to find my comment there
          shortly.
          • brutt Re: Destruction of an icon 01.03.06, 03:15
            Dave, once again thanks for such a fast reply to my post.

            For some reason I do not have an option to reply to your post in form of
            citations ( it only shows “odpowiedz” and not “odpowiedz cytujac”- do not know
            why). So, I will answer your post by addressing its main ideas.

            You have mentioned that the building reminds you of Moscow’s architecture of the
            same era. This is true. Many so-called Soviet architects came from countries
            such as Estonia and Latvia and trained before WWII at Bauhaus in Dessau and
            before, in Weimar. Following the war some left for the West, some stayed. Many
            of the Soviet projects in the 50s and 60s came out of architectural
            firms/offices ran by these talented artists (personally I consider architecture
            a form of art, sort of live-in sculptureswink ). This architectural look that
            reminds you of the 1950s Moscow buildings was actually created in Germany in
            the 1930s, later propagated throughout Europe by people who taught and trained
            at Bauhaus. Two well known textbook figures were Walter Gropius and Ludwig Mies
            van der Rohe, a German and a Dutchman, who left for America before WWII and
            brought the style there, later renamed the International style. Personally, the
            Supersam in Warsaw reminds me of work by Eero Saarinen, an architect that
            designed the well-known TWA terminal at the JFK airport in NYC, although this
            may not be the perfect example to support my claim,. Nevertheless, I do see
            some resemblance. Also I see the likeness of work of architects such as Marcel
            Breuer and aforementioned Ludwig Mies van der Rohe. This is yet another reason
            why I think that the building should be spared. It represents proof that the
            latest architectural development penetrated the division between Western and
            Central/Eastern European countries. This is also shown by the usage of unusual
            construction materials.

            I do agree with you that politics play a role in creation of architecture. This
            was the case in Poland for 45 years, and most likely still is, just on a
            different level. The creation of Supersam, with its socially conscious aspects
            such as the employee resting room, depicts the idea, at least in an ideological
            way, that in the former system, people and individuals really counted (I know
            this sounds a bit utopian). Politics still play a role today. Most likely
            politics are the reason why the city government is trying so persistently to get
            the Supersam demolished. The land was promised to another corporation for
            structure of yet another new office building.

            Well, my post is gotten a bit too long. I hope that I presented my point of view
            in a clear way.

            Dave, I would like to sincerely thank you for your vote.
    • brutt Here you go 28.02.06, 22:33
      It's in Polish ut I think you can manage. This article expresses history,
      importance, and has photos of the building:
      www.sztuka.net.pl/palio/html.run?_Instance=www.sztuka.net.pl&_PageID=445&newsId=5080&callingPageId=483&_CheckSum=707463534
      Thank you for letting me post this topic on your forum. Maybe someone will be
      interested. Perhaps there are some architecture enthusiasts / historians in this
      crowd?
      • dandywarhol Re: Here you go 28.02.06, 22:56
        I'm torn, really. It's definitely a good example of the period stylistically,
        but it's getting run down (much like other buildings of the period). I remember
        my mom shopping there (ul. Puławska 2, by Pl. Unii Lubelskiej) when we lived on
        Madalińskiego one summer. I love buildings with some kind of character or style,
        which this one has (especially compared to the apartment block I live in now
        which dates back to the same year). On the other hand the condition of the
        Supersam does not look that good, and I can understand the desire to build
        something there that isn't a basically-one-story supermarket. It did win an
        award for design when it was built though. But a lot of the interior features
        are now gone or destroyed. It does look like someone would have to invest quite
        a bit of money to refurbish it back to its former glory and clearly the location
        is a pretty desirable one, which doesn't really suit a low-margin grocery store
        very well. I think it is important as a symbol, especially since it uses a
        non-conventional structure. It is unique and historic; that really should be
        enough to put it on a historical register. It seems silly to be defending a
        supermarket, but on the other hand that's what the Sukiennice in Kraków
        originally where and today no one would dream of reducing them to rubble.
        • usenetposts Re: Here you go 01.03.06, 00:48
          I had another thought, and that is maybe you could get Tescos interested. Why?
          Because, the stupid ideas of the former Minister of Finance notwithstanding,
          Tescos actually have an excellent reputation back in the UK of restoring and
          preserving significant landmarks, and incorporating them in their functional
          stores.

          Two Tescos that I know personally come to mind, one is Baldock Tescos
          www.flickr.com/photos/davidcowie/92150446/
          www.knowhere.co.uk/66.html
          which used to be a stockings factory (down, boy), and has a very impressive
          facade, and the other is the celebrated Hoover Building, near the Polish area
          of London:
          www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/tv/dreamspaces/hoover.shtml
          I think in a case like this, you could contact the CEO of Tesco Poland with a
          case for them to look into it with a view to achieving the same aims they
          achieved in the two cases I mentioned, and no doubt a bunch of other projects
          that they have that I don't know about.
          • brutt Re: Here you go 01.03.06, 03:18
            Thanks for the Tesco idea. I will forward it to the committee that is opposing
            the demolition.
        • brutt Re: Here you go 01.03.06, 03:35
          Dandy,
          All I can say that I agree with you. I do realize that it will cost money, a
          lot of money to renovate and maintain the Supersam. But I think that down the
          road we will regret not saving it. Right now there are many proposed projects
          throughout Warsaw to rebuild destroyed during WWII brownstones (kamienice) in
          the pseudo-eclectic style of the 19th century, which I think is ridiculous. You
          cannot build today as they did in the past. I wonder if they are also going to
          replicate the idea of one bathroom for each story of the building. We should
          invest money in preservation of what’s already here and what has a chance of
          being preserved for future generations. After all, Supersam is an icon of a time
          period that’s long gone.
      • usenetposts Re: Here you go 01.03.06, 00:28
        brutt napisał:

        > It's in Polish ut I think you can manage. This article expresses history,
        > importance, and has photos of the building:
        > www.sztuka.net.pl/palio/html.run?
        _Instance=www.sztuka.net.pl&_PageID=445&newsId=5080&callingPageId=483&_CheckSum=
        707463534
        > Thank you for letting me post this topic on your forum. Maybe someone will be
        > interested. Perhaps there are some architecture enthusiasts / historians in
        thi
        > s
        > crowd?

        I think you can be pretty sure there are.

        You're welcome, any time.
    • kylie1 Re: Destruction of an icon 28.02.06, 23:58
      hi brutt,

      would you happen to have a picture of "SuperSam" ( sounds like "superman" whose
      name is Sam) anywhere.
      I would really like to see what it looks like. Any websites maybe?
      thanks,

      k smile

      • brutt Re: Destruction of an icon 01.03.06, 03:23
        Hi Kylie,
        Thanks for your interest in the topic. Below is the link with photos of the
        building. Some are of the construction period and grand opening. Others show
        what it looks like today. The article is written in Polish and I don’t know how
        good your Polish is.
        For Poles it is an icon of the post war times: the first self-service
        supermarket, with unusual architecture (for the period).
        www.sztuka.net.pl/palio/html.run?_Instance=www.sztuka.net.pl&_PageID=445&newsId=5080&callingPageId=483&_CheckSum=707463534
        • kylie1 Re: Destruction of an icon 01.03.06, 04:55
          Thanks brutt...these are really nice pictures - sharp and clear. The Warsaw
          supersam reminds me somewhat of our Canadian Superstore...just as big and
          overwhelming. The only difference is the color. Supersam has got a lot of red
          inside while superstore is all yellow. It drives people nuts. When you're done
          shopping at Superstore you see everything yellow for at least an hour
          afterwards.
          I wouldn't know by just looking at the pictures, but it seems structurally
          sound. And if there is nothing wrong with the building itself, it would be a
          real shame to tear it down.

          Maybe Dave could even pin the "formularz" thingy right at the top of his forum
          so people could read your thread right away. smile

          Keep us posted, brutt. I think it's a wonderful cause and you are doing a great
          job by speaking up. We have to remind ourselves that this is huge part of our
          Polish heritige and once it's gone, it's gone forever.

          smile

          • brutt Re: Destruction of an icon 01.03.06, 05:30
            Thank you for the kind words. I noticed that you also voted (I noticed the “V”
            city and assumed it was you). Thank you.
          • usenetposts Re: Destruction of an icon 01.03.06, 13:12
            kylie1 napisała:

            > Thanks brutt...these are really nice pictures - sharp and clear. The Warsaw
            > supersam reminds me somewhat of our Canadian Superstore...just as big and
            > overwhelming. The only difference is the color. Supersam has got a lot of red
            > inside while superstore is all yellow. It drives people nuts. When you're
            done
            > shopping at Superstore you see everything yellow for at least an hour
            > afterwards.
            > I wouldn't know by just looking at the pictures, but it seems structurally
            > sound. And if there is nothing wrong with the building itself, it would be a
            > real shame to tear it down.
            >
            > Maybe Dave could even pin the "formularz" thingy right at the top of his
            forum
            > so people could read your thread right away. smile
            >
            > Keep us posted, brutt. I think it's a wonderful cause and you are doing a
            great
            >
            > job by speaking up. We have to remind ourselves that this is huge part of our
            > Polish heritige and once it's gone, it's gone forever.
            >
            > smile
            >


            OK, I agree to pin this thread to the top for a week.
            • nasza_maggie Re: Destruction of an icon 01.03.06, 16:50
              Hey Brutt

              Can you answer a silly question, perhaps?
              What do McDonalds have to say about the idea?

              As for historians - if you know of 'rewitalizacja Pragi' you'll know where I'm
              coming fromsmile))

              Maggiesmile
              • brutt Re: Destruction of an icon 01.03.06, 17:08
                No idea. But isn’t MD a franchise operation? If the MD restaurant decided to
                move elsewhere, I’m sure that the owner can find a new spot for its restaurant.
                Besides, how many MDs ,are there in Warsaw? And how many original examples of
                architecture do we have? Somehow I won’t miss the MD sign on it. It just doesn’t
                fit smile.
                • nasza_maggie Re: Destruction of an icon 01.03.06, 17:22
                  No, I don't really care about MDs either, what I meant, is getting them
                  involved in helping you rescue the building.

                  After all it is where they have been since the beginning of their business in
                  Poland and it would be good for you to have them on board.
                  • brutt Re: Destruction of an icon 01.03.06, 17:31
                    You are right but I don’t know if MD would be interested. I’ll try to find out.
                    Thanks Maggie.
                    • nasza_maggie Re: Destruction of an icon 01.03.06, 21:16
                      Why not? It would be good publicity for them. As they are recently changing
                      their 'public image' ie:love the environment, care about local community, put
                      more salad in their burgerssmile


                      It won't hurt to try.
                      • usenetposts Re: Destruction of an icon 02.03.06, 12:42
                        nasza_maggie napisała:

                        > Why not? It would be good publicity for them. As they are recently changing
                        > their 'public image' ie:love the environment, care about local community, put
                        > more salad in their burgerssmile
                        >
                        >
                        > It won't hurt to try.
                        >

                        Only don't call the project "Supersize Super Sam", yeah? I gather that's a sore
                        point with them.
                    • kylie1 Re: Destruction of an icon 02.03.06, 04:29
                      Brutt,

                      I am glad you found us on the internet and you are more than welcome to hang
                      around with us. We are not a big group and it's always fun to get to know new
                      folks. Technically I shouldn't be here (I am from Canada) but Uncle Dave hasn't
                      kicked me out yet...he is very kind smile

                      Kyliesmile
                      • brutt Re: Destruction of an icon 02.03.06, 06:02
                        Kylie, thank you for the invitation. I have been reading this forum once in a
                        while but not really participating too much. I noticed it one day on the main
                        page of Gazeta, and it reminded me of the times my wife and I had a small
                        business in Warsaw that dealt with helping newcomers in establishing themselves
                        in Poland. But that was over 8 years ago and now I see there are other companies
                        that provide this service.

                        Once again thanks for the invite and I hope that Dave won’t mind me contributing
                        once in a while.
                        • usenetposts Re: Destruction of an icon 02.03.06, 12:40
                          > Kylie, thank you for the invitation. I have been reading this forum once in a
                          > while but not really participating too much. I noticed it one day on the main
                          > page of Gazeta, and it reminded me of the times my wife and I had a small
                          > business in Warsaw that dealt with helping newcomers in establishing
                          themselves
                          > in Poland. But that was over 8 years ago and now I see there are other
                          companie
                          > s
                          > that provide this service.
                          >
                          > Once again thanks for the invite and I hope that Dave won’t mind me contr
                          > ibuting
                          > once in a while.
                          >

                          Brutt I am delighted. I hope it will be more often than that. It's a priviledge
                          to be able to extend forum hospitality to another successful private forum
                          moderator, and a gentleman of your quality.

                          I didn't even think you weren't a foreigner, as your English is faultless, but
                          for the record, I changed the intro at the top of the Forum here to say "for
                          and about foreigners living in Poland". As long as the issues posted will
                          interest some of the membership, then I am always delighted. It is actually
                          quite hard to go "off topic" in this group, as the interest profile is so broad.
                          • brutt Re: Destruction of an icon 02.03.06, 16:02
                            Dave, thank you for all the kind words and the official welcome smile. I’ll try to
                            be a meaningful contributor to this forum and its development.
                • usenetposts Re: Destruction of an icon 02.03.06, 12:50
                  brutt napisał:

                  > No idea. But isn’t MD a franchise operation? If the MD restaurant decide
                  > d to
                  > move elsewhere, I’m sure that the owner can find a new spot for its resta
                  > urant.
                  > Besides, how many MDs ,are there in Warsaw? And how many original examples of
                  > architecture do we have? Somehow I won’t miss the MD sign on it. It just
                  > doesn’t
                  > fit smile.

                  Ah, but the golden arched "M" represents "Maria Magdalena", whose bloodline, as
                  anyone who is up to date in their reading up pulp fiction knows, is the
                  Sangreal.

                  You think you are getting a polystyrene cup with "caution, contents may be hot"
                  written on it, but you are actually getting a miniature piece of the Holy Grail
                  which Leonardo himself would fain have desired to drink out of.

                  Um...what's this? Oh no, a letter from a London firm of crack anti-plagiarism
                  solicitors has just arrived on my desk, I'm being sued for this post!

                  I take it all back...
                  • brutt Re: Destruction of an icon 02.03.06, 16:14
                    I have never thought of that. You are opening my eyes to new angles on this
                    issue. smile

                    You are actually might be right. We as humans constantly reuse iconography of
                    the past and apply it to current day events, often not realizing why and when we
                    are doing it. Although I not sure if this applies to Golden Arches.

                    Actually, once I heard of a study which stated that many children are attracted
                    to MD because of its sign and its specific usage of the curved M. It supposedly
                    reminded kids of the word MOM
                    • usenetposts Re: Destruction of an icon 02.03.06, 17:43
                      brutt napisał:

                      > I have never thought of that. You are opening my eyes to new angles on this
                      > issue. smile
                      >
                      > You are actually might be right. We as humans constantly reuse iconography of
                      > the past and apply it to current day events, often not realizing why and when
                      w
                      > e
                      > are doing it. Although I not sure if this applies to Golden Arches.


                      That there could be a link between the golden arches of MacDonald and Mary
                      first struck me during a visit of Jan Pawel II to Poland, in which an M
                      extremely similar in shape to the MacDonalds M, but in blue, was used on all
                      the official pamphlets and blurb for that visit, and I was told that it was in
                      reference to Mary, although I thought it was to Mary the Mother of Jesus, and
                      only the reading of Dan Brown makes me wonder if MacDonalds actually are
                      worshipping Maria Magdalene. "MacDonalds" may be a corruption of "Magdalene's"
                      only with apostrophe missing, the velar plosive voiced and the nasal and liquid
                      exchanging, as they sometimes do as in for example the Spanish "milagro" from
                      Latin "miracle".

                      That would also explain why Ronald MacDonald has flowing red hair.

                      However, I also note that MacDonalds chose their first non-Warsaw location as
                      Czestochowa, and along one of the most important ley lines leading to the
                      nearby Jasna Gora, the seat of the Black Madonna, and if you draw a line from
                      that MacDonalds to the nearby Jasna Gora spire and keep the line going, it's
                      interesting to note what you end up with.

                      Moreover the pattern of MacDonalds development in Poland is a curious
                      combination of the most important commercial areas, transport routes,
                      availability of a franchise partner and nearby either a ley line or an
                      important Catholic or Pre-Christian monument.

                      What is known in America as a quarter-pounder is called in the European
                      MacDonalds a "MacRoyal". This, when you consider that "Mac" is Gaelic for "the
                      son of" makes it clear that the reference is to the Merovingian royal blood
                      line, the "Sang Real" or "San Greal" of Templar legend. Similarly it is no
                      coincidence that the fish product is called "Filet O'Fish" - "O" is Gaelic
                      for "Grandson of", and the Fish here refers of course to the
                      Ichthys symbol used to
                      typify Christ by the early church.

                      Exactly what the significance of all this is, is beyond me though. I have no
                      idea whether the MacDonalds organisation is on the side of the Templars,
                      Freemasons and what have you or on the side of Opus Dei, though I suspect the
                      former. Hamburgers and supersize fries do not sit easily with a creed of
                      mortification of the flesh.

                      > Actually, once I heard of a study which stated that many children are
                      attracted
                      > to MD because of its sign and its specific usage of the curved M. It
                      supposedly
                      > reminded kids of the word MOM

                      Well, according to this idea, it does mean a Mother, but in a different context.
                      • brutt Re: Destruction of an icon 02.03.06, 18:20
                        My goodness Dave, you hit it right on the nose.

                        wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,60935,3191074.html
                        The key here is the color blue. Blue blood perhaps, the royal lineage? I think I
                        hear Dan Brown shuffling his notes.
                        • usenetposts Re: Destruction of an icon 02.03.06, 20:22
                          brutt napisał:

                          > My goodness Dave, you hit it right on the nose.
                          >
                          > wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,60935,3191074.html
                          > The key here is the color blue. Blue blood perhaps, the royal lineage? I
                          think
                          > I
                          > hear Dan Brown shuffling his notes.
                          >

                          That's right! And please note the name of the Rabbi who caused the change has a
                          name which is ALMOST AN ANAGRAM of Mary!
                          • nasza_maggie Re: Destruction of an icon 03.03.06, 01:43
                            can I have some, of what you guys are on?
                            Because it sounds like it could solve a lot of theories I have been obliged to
                            prove latelysmile
    • nasza_maggie Iluzjon 03.03.06, 17:58
      It looks like one of the eldest cinemas in Warsaw is also going to be ripped to
      shreds and a new building put in place...

      www.iluzjon.webpark.pl/

      The ILUZJON cinema will most likely share the fate of the PRAHA cinema in
      Praga, which for years was left to fall apart, and then the exuse was made that
      it was a health hazard. So it was destroyed and in its place a new cinema is
      being built.
      Ofcourse it has nothing to do with the climate of the old place.

      It's a shame that we do not look after these buldings.

      If you drive down Karl Marx Alle in Berlin, you will find the whole 'climate'
      has been preserved.

      Ofcourse ILUZJON is magic. It is one place where you can still watch old films
      in the old atmosphere. It is a very old buliding and one of the fires cinemas
      in Warsaw.
      It would be nice if the just renenwed the bulding and not built a whole new
      one, the style of the new one will most probably, as usual, not fit into the
      surrounding area. Glass, metal etc.

      Iluzjon is part of the Polish Film archives.(FILMOTEKA NARODOWA) Which is so
      unfunded and short of money to preserve and renew films, you often hear that
      the employees pay to preserve and clean the films with their own money.

      Some of the films are in a tragic state. There are no proper facilities to
      store them, or clean them. So they loose colour and get mouldy...
      • brutt Re: Iluzjon 04.03.06, 22:46
        Yes, that is terrible.
        In my city many older theaters are closed or soon to be closed due to a new
        multiplex that is currently being build. Although I have nothing against new
        development (as long as it doesn’t interfere with well established ideas/places)
        , I wish that the old and well-established theaters would still be open. Maybe
        they can find a new niche, such as showing independent cinema, cinema of a
        certain time period, or Polish movies only cinema. This way they can gain an
        edge over Hollywood productions which are mainly shown in large multiplex
        theaters. I would buy an old theater if I had the money
    • brutt Re: Destruction of an icon 10.03.06, 02:53
      Hey Dave,
      Thanks for your help.
      • usenetposts Re: Destruction of an icon 11.03.06, 12:41
        OK, let me know how you get on, and feel free to bring things up here any time.
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