Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists

01.03.06, 15:01
I'm not pro-Serbian, and they have a lot to answer for in the various recent
Balkan wars and insurgencies, but during the Kosovan war I was the only
person I know who pulled his hair out over our pro-Kosovar involvement. The
UK newspapers were in favour of the underdog. Kosovar culture is violent and
primitive - as I'd discovered during a year-long stay in Belgium - and our
payback from them has been ... drugs, organised crime, slave-trading,
prostitution and gunrunning.
In contrast, I was massively in favour of the UK opening its doors to Polish
workers (unlike the UK newspapers) - which has been a big success.
Why are journalists so dumb?
    • nasza_maggie Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 01.03.06, 16:51
      Are you referring to any particular paper/journalists/article?
      • usenetposts Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 01.03.06, 17:15
        nasza_maggie napisała:

        > Are you referring to any particular paper/journalists/article?

        If I understand him right, they are virtually all the same.

        There are almost no media sources that give the alternative view, as in the PC
        world we live in, it is not considered respectable to be honest about what most
        people seem privately to think anyway about Islam, and our chances of ever
        living in harmony with that pseudoreligion.
        • nasza_maggie Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 01.03.06, 17:16
          usenetposts napisał:

          > nasza_maggie napisała:
          >
          > > Are you referring to any particular paper/journalists/article?
          >
          > If I understand him right, they are virtually all the same.
          >
          > There are almost no media sources that give the alternative view, as in the
          PC
          > world we live in, it is not considered respectable to be honest about what
          most
          >
          > people seem privately to think anyway about Islam, and our chances of ever
          > living in harmony with that pseudoreligion.
          >


          Doesn't that stem from Imperial guilt?
          • nasza_maggie Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 04.03.06, 12:01
            Anybody?
    • usenetposts Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 01.03.06, 17:11
      I thought exactly the same thing. Kosovars are Muslims and therefore they think
      like Muslims. Serbians are more brutal than most Europeans because they had to
      learn to survive next to Muslims. That's all there is to it.

      In the BBC and most British media the critisicm of Islam and Muslim thinking
      per se is not allowed. They have some kind of idea that there are good Muslims
      and bad Muslims. When I ask what the theological difference is between the good
      ones and the bad ones, nobody can actually answer my question, though, although
      I have asked it many times in many different discussion groups and fora.

      It is as though the public realisation - although most people I talk to
      personally do realise it privately - that we have a very big problem with islam
      in our midst and it is not just a small minority of them is something nobody
      wants to get their head around. Nobody wants to look like a fascist and condemn
      the Islamists en masse after the things Europeans like you and me did last
      century. But if you look at the kind of behaviour we are now seeing in the
      demonstrations about a bunch of cartoons, as here, for example
      tinyurl.com/kvaf4
      You can see what we are up against. The Jews never came up with this sort of
      aggression, they were concerned only with integration into European society,
      and produced many of our best artists and thinkers in Europe, and still do in
      countries where they stayed, and in America. Nevertheless, we slaughtered them.

      The upshot of it is, that when we see things like this, where these people are
      looking for a fight and deeply deserve to have one, we are soft about it
      because we all have guilty consciences about the holocaust, and want to do
      whatever we can to avoid repeating it.

      The problem is that as their power, weaponry and population grow, the time at
      which we can no longer resist their push for world rule is coming up faster
      than we think - they strengthen in relation to us every year, and have been
      doing so ever since we took our eyes off them to deal with the other threat of
      the twentieth century, that of communism. If left, this problem will not cure
      with time - they still have a bee in their bonnet about what the templars did
      in the twelfth century - it will only get worse.

      This is why we have to make a decision not to side with Kosovo against Serbia,
      not to side with Chechnia against Russia, not to pussyfoot with Iran but make
      pre-emptive strikes right now, put Guantanamo Bay back on the mainland of
      America and don't make any bones about it - make the processing of these people
      legal and not shameful, and forget about "restoring democracy" to Islamic
      countries. We should simply send the practicing Moslims to Moslim countries,
      get the minoritues out, and then leave them to stew in their own Bronze Age
      juices.

      If they make some weapon, be it chemical or biological or nuclear, or start
      building tanks or whatever, we should simply launch tactical strikes from the
      air that cost us little in casualties, and not engage these people on the
      ground until our robotics are at a stage where we can do so without loss of
      life to their guerrilla methods.

      And we need to hurry up getting robotics to a stage where soldiers don't need
      to do much on the ground. The only excuse for not doing so is reducing the
      proportion of thickoes in our population.

      But you will not find journalists echoing these proposals because they would
      rather be politically correct than actually right. And so they are stupid
      themselves, and stupefy their readers to match them.
      • bartis_ervin Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 02.03.06, 18:16
        I would avoid in discussing this issue in these terms.

        Of course there are dumb journalists, but there are also smart journalist.
        I don't think that the Kosovar culture is primitive and violent. What Dave said
        about reasons why Serbs are more "tough" goes for the Kosovars too.
        They were kept undeveloped, discriminated and had to learn how to survive.

        If you say that Kosovar culture is primitve, probably you can say the same about
        all cultures of the world. It depends on the perspective.

        Kosovar culture violent? Maybe.. People don't say that German or US culture is
        violent, but history tells us that they are. On the other hand, all cultures or
        nations become violent and resist if they are faced with extinction.

        The International Crisis Group's (ICG) report called "Overcoming the division in
        Mitrovica" describes very well that the Kosovar organised crime group
        excellently collaborate with the Serbian ones.

        Dave, in the beginnings of this forum we already had an argument on Islam and
        Muslims. You cannot put all Muslims in one hat. For me it is hard to believe
        that you would like to see Europe side with Russia on the Chechnya issue.
        I would like to see you explain to a Chechen who was castrated by the Russian
        security forces, tortured with electricity that you would let him die because
        you are afraid of Muslims.
        You know the Bible better than me and the Bible talks about love. What you just
        said about Chechens and Kosovars, at least for me does not show love.

        Besides this, the UN Charter states the right to self determination of all
        nations. Where is this right in the case of Chechens and Kosovars?

        Anyway, it is only a principial thing because politicians in Europe are too
        chicken to stand up to an ex-KGB.

        "we should simply launch tactical strikes from the air that cost us little in
        casualties"
        Precise air strikes? Do you remember the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade being
        bombed? What about Iraqi and Afghani weddings being bombed in "tactical
        strikes"? I remember one in Afghanistan when the British Army took over a
        hide-out. When they finished, the Americans flew over and bombed the British.

        I agree that Iran is scary, but also remember that Pakistan also has a nuclear
        weapon. Europe and US wants to play big in the Iran nuclear case, but in fact
        China and maybe Russia are the most important elements in the equation.

        For the theological difference between "good" and "bad" Muslims check the ICG
        Report issued in 2005 (I think March) called "Understanding Islamism".

        Ervin

        Thebartiski.blogspot.com
        • usenetposts Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 02.03.06, 20:53
          bartis_ervin napisał:

          > I would avoid in discussing this issue in these terms.
          >
          > Of course there are dumb journalists, but there are also smart journalist.
          > I don't think that the Kosovar culture is primitive and violent. What Dave
          said
          > about reasons why Serbs are more "tough" goes for the Kosovars too.
          > They were kept undeveloped, discriminated and had to learn how to survive.

          Nobody asked them into Europe in the first place. The same applies to all the
          Ottoman Empire.

          >
          > If you say that Kosovar culture is primitve, probably you can say the same
          abou
          > t
          > all cultures of the world. It depends on the perspective.
          >

          Arabic culture didn't used to be primitive. In the Middle Ages it was
          avantgarde. The effect of Islam is that it has gone backwards instead of
          forward.


          > Kosovar culture violent? Maybe.. People don't say that German or US culture is
          > violent, but history tells us that they are. On the other hand, all cultures
          or
          > nations become violent and resist if they are faced with extinction.

          Precisely, Ervin! And that's what we are faced with, if Islam ever gains the
          upper hand. Anyone else would fight to retain the pre-eminence, but liberals in
          the west seem hell-bent on offering their necks and those of their neighbours
          for a beheading by scimitar.

          >
          > The International Crisis Group's (ICG) report called "Overcoming the division
          > in
          > Mitrovica" describes very well that the Kosovar organised crime group
          > excellently collaborate with the Serbian ones.
          >

          I expect they taught them all they know...

          > Dave, in the beginnings of this forum we already had an argument on Islam and
          > Muslims. You cannot put all Muslims in one hat.

          There are active ones and less active ones. Ones that believe their guff and
          thise who don't believe it but understand that they were born to it and just
          keep their heads down and make the best of it. I am not talking about the
          inhabitants of countries, I am talking about the believers in Islam. Those who
          are going on hajj and jihad and pushing this whole movement forward.

          > For me it is hard to believe
          > that you would like to see Europe side with Russia on the Chechnya issue.

          Whyever not? They are as much a part of the axis of pro-Islamist terrorism as
          any of the rest of them are. Didn't you see what happened to the Nord Ost
          theatre? I was in Moscow while that was going on.

          > I would like to see you explain to a Chechen who was castrated by the Russian
          > security forces, tortured with electricity that you would let him die because
          > you are afraid of Muslims.

          I expect that the Russians do that to people they have reason to believe they
          are involved in terrorism.

          Ervin let me tell you seriously, that if I knew someone who had been involved
          in the terrosrist attack on the Beslan school and they were at my mercy, I
          would castrate them and give them electric shocks myself. Seriously.


          > You know the Bible better than me and the Bible talks about love. What you
          just
          > said about Chechens and Kosovars, at least for me does not show love.

          I love the children of Beslan, and not the monsters who killed them, in the
          name of some stinking gutter religion.

          If you would like to know what God has in store according to the Bible for
          someone who would cause one of the little ones offence, I will tell you: Jesus
          says it would be better for them to have a millstone put around their neck and
          be cast into the sea. (Luke 17:2)

          Yes, the Bible is full of love, but it is curiously devoid of liberal
          sentimental shit.

          Luke goes on to say if they repent, forgive them. If they repent of their ways
          then of course I will forgive them. But while they have every intention to kill
          us and wipe us out, I'm very sorry, but they are enemies.

          > Besides this, the UN Charter states the right to self determination of all
          > nations. Where is this right in the case of Chechens and Kosovars?
          >

          The same place it is for the Kashubians and the Silesians.

          > Anyway, it is only a principial thing because politicians in Europe are too
          > chicken to stand up to an ex-KGB.

          Politicians in Europe are too chicken to stand up to our own liberal and left
          wing media.

          >
          > "we should simply launch tactical strikes from the air that cost us little in
          > casualties"

          > Precise air strikes? Do you remember the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade being
          > bombed?

          Yes, they need more practice, that's for sure.

          > What about Iraqi and Afghani weddings being bombed in "tactical
          > strikes"?

          Yes, very bad.

          Lower collateral that way than with land engagement, nonetheless.

          If we had not bothered with ground engagement, then I doubt there'd have needed
          to be any ordinance anywhere near those particular sad events.

          > I remember one in Afghanistan when the British Army took over a
          > hide-out. When they finished, the Americans flew over and bombed the British.

          Yes, they do keep bombing their friends, they should, like, do something about
          that.

          >
          > I agree that Iran is scary, but also remember that Pakistan also has a nuclear
          > weapon. Europe and US wants to play big in the Iran nuclear case, but in fact
          > China and maybe Russia are the most important elements in the equation.

          If Pakistan did not have that weapon, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole
          engagement and the political pussyfooting around it wouldn't look a lot
          different.

          > For the theological difference between "good" and "bad" Muslims check the ICG
          > Report issued in 2005 (I think March) called "Understanding Islamism".

          OK, happy to do that. Do you happen to have a link to it? If someone can
          finally tell me what the difference is between an Islamic fundamentalist and an
          Islamic non-fundamentalist is by means of a summary of basic doctrine, I shall
          be at the end of a rather long quest. I shall also be surprised if it is
          anything substantive, but I'm always ready to do a retraction if that turns out
          to be necessary.
          • bartis_ervin Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 02.03.06, 21:26

            I saw what happened in Moscow and also what happened is Beslan. The fact that
            these crimes were comitted by Chechens does not qualify the Chechen nation. It
            qualifies only the group who comitted it.
            Just the way as Hitler does not qualify the Germans or Bush the American nation.

            The fact that somebody was born Chechen should not mean that the Russian army is
            allowed to castrate him and torture him. I talked with women who had their
            unborn babies killed. This should never happen no matter what colour, nation,
            opinion you have.

            In fact this should not happen even if you are a terrorist who killed 100
            persons. We invented a justice system and this should take care of it.
            Torture by state and non-state agents is forbidden. Unfortunately not everyone
            respects it.

            The Chechen leaders got a chance with Yeltsin and Maschadov agreeing.
            Unfortunately nobody gave enough support to Maschadov to control the extremists
            elements. The current Russian policy fuels even more extremism.

            Maschadov once said that his biggest fear is the Caucasus being in fire. This is
            what will happen in the near future. Unfortunately. While Russia is kicking out
            international NGOs not to have any witnesses when the region will be carpet
            bombed. Siding with Russia also means siding with Lukasenko, Transnistria's Igor
            Smirnov.

            > I love the children of Beslan, and not the monsters who killed them, in the
            > name of some stinking gutter religion.
            Those who killed the kids did not represent any religion or nation, they
            represented an interest.
            On the other hand, there were enough killings in the name of Christianity too.
            Including children.

            > > Besides this, the UN Charter states the right to self determination of all
            > > nations. Where is this right in the case of Chechens and Kosovars?
            >
            > The same place it is for the Kashubians and the Silesians.

            Of course it is the same. The questions is: do they want it? As far as I saw, it
            is not a topic which is present in the public debate.
            There are a couple of well-working models of autonomy. These need to be used:
            there are almost 200 countries in the world and almost 2.000 nations. Sooner or
            later there will be problems.

            If you are interested in the report I mentioned, let me know and I will send it
            as an attachment to your gazeta mail. I could give you link, but you need to
            create an ID and then sign in so it will save you time.

            Ervin

            Thebartiski.blogspot.com
            • russh Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 02.03.06, 22:58
              The fact that somebody was born Chechen should not mean that the Russian army i
              > s
              > allowed to castrate him and torture him. I talked with women who had their
              > unborn babies killed. This should never happen no matter what colour, nation,
              > opinion you have.

              Agreed.

              > In fact this should not happen even if you are a terrorist who killed 100
              > persons. We invented a justice system and this should take care of it.
              > Torture by state and non-state agents is forbidden. Unfortunately not everyone
              > respects it.

              The justice system sometimes takes too long, and is too political, and does not
              hand out 'justice', meaning fair retribution for the crimes committed.

              > > > Besides this, the UN Charter states the right to self determination
              > of all
              > > > nations. Where is this right in the case of Chechens and Kosovars?

              Does this mean that all non-democratic countries should be taken to task by the UN?

              > If you are interested in the report I mentioned, let me know and I will send it
              > as an attachment to your gazeta mail.

              I would very much appreciate a copy as well. Thanks
              • bartis_ervin Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 02.03.06, 23:53
                > The justice system sometimes takes too long, and is too political, and does not
                > hand out 'justice', meaning fair retribution for the crimes committed.

                I agree, but this is one of the not-so-many ways. The other very good
                alternative is the "truth and reconciliation" model which was quite postively
                put in practice in South Africa. Sirleaf wants to do the same in Liberia.
                This is even a more relaxed wiev of justice and rather emphasizes on
                reconciliating ethnic groups/social groups. I think this method was also used in
                Rwanda.

                > Does this mean that all non-democratic countries should be taken to task by
                the UN?
                I am not sure that I understand what you mean...

                Tomorrow I will send this report that I was mentioning earlier.

                Ervin

                Thebartiski.blogspot.com
                • russh Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 03.03.06, 06:17
                  > > Does this mean that all non-democratic countries should be taken to task
                  > by
                  > the UN?
                  > I am not sure that I understand what you mean...

                  In a previous post, you said that the UN Charter states the right to
                  self-determination of all nations. Self determination surely means 'a
                  populations right to choose', i.e. each country should be democratic, and if
                  not, then the UN should do something about it.

                  Thanks
                  • bartis_ervin Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 04.03.06, 12:23

                    In a way, it means that you have the right to be ruled by people that you elect,
                    "your kind of" people.

                    The fact, that this was put in the UN Charter in a way contributed to the
                    de-colonisation process.

                    The UN cannot do much about it. Of course the agencies under the Economical and
                    Social Council can issue reports, the ECO-SOC accepts them, but in fact the
                    legal value of these documents is close to nothing. One of the only UN bodies
                    that can do something is the Security Council, but the SC is aand always was
                    "impotent". Until now, the Security Council never reached a decision when the 5
                    permanent members agreed (certain tricks were used, like "let's wait until the
                    Russian delegation goes on holiday and then we'll vote" and etc.)
                    And it is less likely that the SC will ever reach fair decisions: for example,
                    for most of the world is clear that there is a genocide hapenning in Darfur, but
                    China has oil interest in Sudan, thus never will vote for economical embargo
                    (which is crap anyway) or military intervention.
                    Unfortunately, it is hard to reach a consensus in an IGO when there are 200
                    members pursuing their own interests.

                    Ervin

                    Thebartiski.blogspot.com
            • ms.jones Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 02.03.06, 23:31
              I'm so glad you spoke up, Ervin. Westerners are not all the same and neither
              are Muslims. The less we see them in discrete categories, with the dominant
              image being one of dangerous fanatics, the more 'glue' we supply for them to
              unite against us - in solidarity, cultural pride and condemnation of the rotten
              evil West - all fuelled by our own stance, also perceived as uniformly
              aggressive. And what awaits us down the line is more fighting and more deaths.

              I think killing is barbaric. Sometimes it can be unavoidable and necessary for
              self-preservation. But even then it's still barbaric and people should use all
              means available to them to pursue non-violent ways of resolving conflict,
              especially if it's group conflict. If more and more people get involved in an
              eye for an eye atavistic response, soon anyone left will be blind =dead. It's
              against group self-preservation. Not a good legacy for our children. That's
              what I think anyway.



              • bartis_ervin Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 02.03.06, 23:46
                > I think killing is barbaric. Sometimes it can be unavoidable and necessary for
                > self-preservation. But even then it's still barbaric and people should use all
                > means available to them to pursue non-violent ways of resolving conflict,
                > especially if it's group conflict. If more and more people get involved in an
                > eye for an eye atavistic response, soon anyone left will be blind =dead. It's
                > against group self-preservation. Not a good legacy for our children. That's
                > what I think anyway.

                This is the reason why women are better conflict/peace workers wink

                Ervin

                Thebartiski.blogspot.com
                • ms.jones Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 04.03.06, 16:36
                  smile

                  BBC 2 is going to show this weekend Facing the Truth with Archbishop Desmond
                  Tutu wearing his Truth and Reconciliation Commission hat, as he brings together
                  families of victims and IRA killers.

                  news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4723320.stm
                  "With the victims, holding on to your resentment means you are locked into your
                  victimhood - and you allow the perpetrator to have a hold over your life. When
                  you forgive, you let go, it sets you free, and it will probably set free the
                  perpetrator."

                  "That's the basis of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission - that it is
                  possible for the perpetrator of even the most gruesome atrocity to become a
                  better person. Each one of us has the capacity for great good, we each of us
                  have the capacity to become a saint.

                  "I would never say this is an 'evil person', but this is a person who committed
                  evil deeds.

                  "When we're appalled by some gruesome atrocity, I would not say that those who
                  did this are monsters. I've said, say the deed is monstrous. Describe it in the
                  most sharp terms, but never give up on the essential humanity on the
                  perpetrator.

                  "You've got to say, there but for the grace of God go I. None of us can say
                  that had I been exposed to the same circumstances and conditions that I
                  wouldn't have turned out the same way.

                  "Perpetrators don't have horns, don't have tails, they are as ordinary looking
                  as you and I. The people who supported Hitler were not demons, they were often
                  very respectable people."
                  • russh Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 04.03.06, 18:37
                    Very, very interesting. I'd like very much to see the documentary, but cannot
                    get BBC2 here.

                    I agree that it is better for the victim to be able to forgive (for the reasons
                    given), although it must be very difficult in many instances. I do not think
                    that society should forgive certain crimes, and am in fact in favour of the
                    death penalty in certain circumstances. Justice should prevail in all
                    circumstances, with perpertrators of crime being suitably punished.

                    Therefore, while I admire the sentiments, and possibly also agree that there are
                    not 'evil people', but only people who have committed evil acts, the
                    differentiation changes nothing in my view.
                    • ms.jones Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 04.03.06, 20:30
                      Sorry you can't watch it. But you can see an interview with Desmond Tutu here:

                      www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/
                      Some of the things he says in answer to the questions about the value of the
                      process and whether society is ready for it:

                      people don't like holding on to hate and resentment; it's better to uburden and
                      experience the potency of being acknowledged and listened to

                      the process is helping people to be human (pearl beyond price). God is trying
                      to tell us "we can ultimately be human only together, we can be free only
                      together, can be prosperous only together. God created us for us to be able to
                      live in a delicate network of interdependence. None of us could ever be totally
                      self-sufficient. Total self-sufficiency is subhuman. People are people because
                      of other people. I can be me only because you are you. I need you to be fully
                      who you are so that I can be fully who I am."

                      byegones are never byegones. Fears neve lie down completely. What do you do
                      with the wound? Pretend it has healed when all the while it has been festering -
                      or do you open it up and cleanse it.
                      ...........

                      I do not think
                      > that society should forgive certain crimes, and am in fact in favour of the
                      > death penalty in certain circumstances.

                      I agree that crime must be punished, but where's life there's hope.

          • ianek70 Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 04.03.06, 18:42
            usenetposts napisał:

            > Nobody asked them into Europe in the first place. The same applies to all the
            > Ottoman Empire.

            And who invited the Christians into Europe?
            2000 years ago Europe was multicultural, different tribes had their own gods.
            Several religions were tolerated in Rome but the Christians abused this
            tolerance claiming that their god was the only one, which was offensive to
            other cultures. And then they moaned about being persecuted, although they knew
            they were breaking the law.
            When in Rome, as they say.

            > Arabic culture didn't used to be primitive. In the Middle Ages it was
            > avantgarde. The effect of Islam is that it has gone backwards instead of
            > forward.

            And secular European culture has gone forwards.


            > There are active ones and less active ones. Ones that believe their guff and
            > thise who don't believe it but understand that they were born to it and just
            > keep their heads down and make the best of it.

            That's true anywhere.
            In democratic Poland, millions of people call themselves Christians when
            they're not, so in countries where you're not allowed to be non-Muslim, it's
            understandable that people consider themselves Muslims, but interpret that
            according to their own personal beliefs, experiences, etc.
            Nice Muslims consider Islam a religion of peace, but bitter, twisted,
            frustrated Muslims demand jihad.
            • russh Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 04.03.06, 19:30
              Totally agre with your sentiments, but isn't it time for the 'nice muslims' to
              show their face, and reject the 'nasty, twisted ones' in a clear, unambiguous way.

              I think it is the only possibility of averting a very costly conflict.
            • usenetposts Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 04.03.06, 23:03
              ianek70 napisał:

              > usenetposts napisał:
              >
              > > Nobody asked them into Europe in the first place. The same applies to all
              > the
              > > Ottoman Empire.
              >
              > And who invited the Christians into Europe?

              Not entirely sure what that has to do with it, but there has never been a
              Christian invasion of Europe.

              Christianity was USED by Constantine as a means to regulate the Roman Empire,
              but he wasn't doing us any favours. The politicisation of our religion by
              secular politicians for their own ends is regrettable, and Christians at ground
              level are the victims not the perpetrators of that.

              > 2000 years ago Europe was multicultural, different tribes had their own gods.
              > Several religions were tolerated in Rome but the Christians abused this
              > tolerance claiming that their god was the only one, which was offensive to
              > other cultures. And then they moaned about being persecuted, although they
              knew they were breaking the law.

              No "Christians" did not do that. There was no basis for such behaviour in the
              Bible, and therefore those who did so acted off their own bat.

              Christianity was in Rome for three whole centuries before it became the
              official creed of Rome.


              Over that time, the way it was spread was mainly by Christians being fed to
              lions. It was not spread by military force. It was a free market of ideas, and
              they had the right to maintain that there is one God as others had the right to
              maintain that there are many gods.


              > When in Rome, as they say.

              Rome was a free market of ideas for much of the time, and they did as the
              Romans do.

              >
              > > Arabic culture didn't used to be primitive. In the Middle Ages it was
              > > avantgarde. The effect of Islam is that it has gone backwards instead of
              > > forward.
              >
              > And secular European culture has gone forwards.

              A mixture of Christian, Jewish and disbelieving culture has gone forwards.

              And, apart from the ongoing crime of anti-semitism, there has been in the main
              a fairly easy coming to terms between those groupings, at any rate by modern
              times. If you want to be an atheist or a Wiccan or Jewish, then no Christian
              will take away your free will in doing so, although they certainly will want to
              make sure that you are informed about the Gospel so that, if you reject it, at
              least you know what you are rejecting. Christians, and I don't mean political
              organisations going under the banner of christianity falsely, know that you
              cannot become a Christian under duress. What was done by the Inquisition was a
              political act, and not a religious one.


              >
              >
              > > There are active ones and less active ones. Ones that believe their guff
              > and
              > > thise who don't believe it but understand that they were born to it and j
              > ust
              > > keep their heads down and make the best of it.
              >
              > That's true anywhere.
              > In democratic Poland, millions of people call themselves Christians when
              > they're not, so in countries where you're not allowed to be non-Muslim, it's
              > understandable that people consider themselves Muslims, but interpret that
              > according to their own personal beliefs, experiences, etc.
              > Nice Muslims consider Islam a religion of peace, but bitter, twisted,
              > frustrated Muslims demand jihad.

              Again, this is too simplistic. There is no version of Islam which denies Jihad -
              it is one of the five pillars of Wisdom. They might say that Jihad means to
              them combating non-belief by persuasive argument, but we only have anybody's
              word that that's what their interpretation really is. At the end of the day,
              since they see themselves as at Holy War with the infidel, then lying to
              infidels about how they intend to fight is absolutely forgiveable, after all,
              they are at war with us, so that counts as disinformation to the enemy.

              Look at the way all these terrorists, when they are caught, try7 to lie that
              they are not guilty. They want to be martyrs, but at the same time they want to
              save their skins so they can fight on. You never see them going into court
              saying, yes, I did it all, please kill me so I can die the death of a righteous
              believing martyr. They always like to play the martyr, but you can be sure
              their lawyer is always lodging their appeal for clemency.
              • varsovian Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 08.03.06, 12:32
                I don't know about you, but a good way to wind Poles up is to tell them you
                are "Christian". First of all, they look at you with a complete lack of
                understanding, then a smile slowly spreads across their face as they realise
                that you are confessing to not being a Catholic!
                If you are really evil, you will go on to tell them you ARE a Catholic,
                whereupon they reply "... b-but you said you were a Christian!!"

                It's worked for me several times, but THEY never seem to get the joke.
                • usenetposts Re: Kosovo, Poland and dumb journalists 08.03.06, 21:50
                  varsovian napisał:

                  > I don't know about you, but a good way to wind Poles up is to tell them you
                  > are "Christian". First of all, they look at you with a complete lack of
                  > understanding, then a smile slowly spreads across their face as they realise
                  > that you are confessing to not being a Catholic!
                  > If you are really evil, you will go on to tell them you ARE a Catholic,
                  > whereupon they reply "... b-but you said you were a Christian!!"
                  >
                  > It's worked for me several times, but THEY never seem to get the joke.

                  Heh heh. I wonder why.
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