nasza_maggie 03.03.06, 01:46 I am curious what will the outcome be..... And will others just stand back and watch..... wolnabialorus.org/ Odpowiedz Link czytaj wygodnie posty
usenetposts Re: Belarus 03.03.06, 11:00 It's difficult for me to comment, but it seems that Lukashenko has now missed his opportunity for retiring gracefully a very rich man. It's likely to be a toppling for him now. Maybe its not too late for him to negotiate a round table style deal for himself in exchange for an elegant hand over of power, rather than bloodshed. If he wants help in doing so, I'm sure there would be no shortage of takers in the political and diplomatic world who would advocate for him. Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Belarus 04.03.06, 01:00 If they do have one, let's hope they make a better job of it than the Ukraine did. Remember that Belarus has less freedom, but has far fewer people below the poverty line than the Ukraine. Odpowiedz Link
nasza_maggie Re: Belarus 04.03.06, 11:52 I'm not sure about that. But I think in terms of revolution, Putin won't let Belarus go so lightly. As far as judging the situation in the Ukraine it is too early to see the outcome. a year is nothing in such a situation. Ofcourse none of the political squabble there surprise me, you only nedd to look at the last 15 years in Poland At the end of the day it turns out the word 'democracy' means something different to many of the political options. Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Belarus 04.03.06, 12:56 nasza_maggie napisała: > I'm not sure about that. Well, you know I've made numerous visits. Another thing is that about 30% of the population present in Belarus is Ukrainian - they go there to get work which they cannot get at home. > But I think in terms of revolution, Putin won't let Belarus go so lightly. Lukashenko has embarrassed Putin on more than one occasion, and I wouldn't be surprised if Putin actually calls the place to order in the end. > As far as judging the situation in the Ukraine it is too early to see the > outcome. a year is nothing in such a situation. The upsetting thing is the way the new guys immediately started getting into get rich quick schemes. The action of Yushchenko in clearing them out is of course very positive, but still nothing much seems to be happening there yet. > > Ofcourse none of the political squabble there surprise me, you only nedd to > look at the last 15 years in Poland > > At the end of the day it turns out the word 'democracy' means something > different to many of the political options. In point of fact, there probably aren't any on this planet. But still, it is an ideal we need to adhere to, and maybe the internet technology will help democratic rule along. I think it already has a bit. Odpowiedz Link
ianek70 Re: Ukraine 20.03.06, 11:27 usenetposts napisał: > > As far as judging the situation in the Ukraine it is too early to see the > > > outcome. a year is nothing in such a situation. > > The upsetting thing is the way the new guys immediately started getting into > get rich quick schemes. The action of Yushchenko in clearing them out is of > course very positive, but still nothing much seems to be happening there yet. > Ukraine was (is?) genuinely divided, both politically and geographically, as even the Polish media mentioned and occasionally even explained. There were several candidates in the presidential elections there, but since the results were falsified by (or on behalf of) a corrupt, populist pseudo- leftist, immediately there were all these orange ribbons everywhere on the front pages of Polish newspapers and portals and demands that the corrupt, populist Tory candidate be made president. No talk of a second round of voting. Polish newspapers carry stories every day on page 1 about corruption and unemployment in PL, and on page 2 about how arrogant Lukashenko is to accuse Poland of having corruption and high unemployment. They mentioned today on Radio 3 that the official results in the Belarus elections gave the Pres 82%, but according to unofficial results he got less than 50% and it should go to a 2nd round. Lukashenko is a crook (I have to be careful what I say, in PL it's illegal to criticise the heads of certain states) and possibly a maniac, but he got over 40% of the vote. Did people vote for him simply because they were brainwashed? Did people vote against him simply because they don't like being brainwashed? I think it's probably far more complicated than that, although I've never been to Belarus, but for the next few weeks we'll just read simplistic crap in Polish papers about how great one of the opposition candidates is. Inform people, have honest, fair elections then kick out Lukashenko and lock him up if that's what the majority decide in a democratic election. A democratic decision will probably be different from an undemocratic one, but you can't decide that in advance... What colour ribbons will we see everywhere tomorrow? Odpowiedz Link
usenetposts Re: Belarus won't move without Europe's commitment 20.03.06, 12:21 ianek70 napisał: > usenetposts napisał: > > > > > As far as judging the situation in the Ukraine it is too early to s > ee the > > > > > outcome. a year is nothing in such a situation. > > > > The upsetting thing is the way the new guys immediately started getting i > nto > > get rich quick schemes. The action of Yushchenko in clearing them out is > of > > course very positive, but still nothing much seems to be happening there > yet. > > > > Ukraine was (is?) genuinely divided, both politically and geographically, as > even the Polish media mentioned and occasionally even explained. > There were several candidates in the presidential elections there, but since > the results were falsified by (or on behalf of) a corrupt, populist pseudo- > leftist, immediately there were all these orange ribbons everywhere on the > front pages of Polish newspapers and portals and demands that the corrupt, > populist Tory candidate be made president. No talk of a second round of voting. > > Polish newspapers carry stories every day on page 1 about corruption and > unemployment in PL, and on page 2 about how arrogant Lukashenko is to accuse > Poland of having corruption and high unemployment. > They mentioned today on Radio 3 that the official results in the Belarus > elections gave the Pres 82%, but according to unofficial results he got less > than 50% and it should go to a 2nd round. > Lukashenko is a crook (I have to be careful what I say, in PL it's illegal to > criticise the heads of certain states) and possibly a maniac, but he got over > 40% of the vote. > Did people vote for him simply because they were brainwashed? > Did people vote against him simply because they don't like being brainwashed? > I think it's probably far more complicated than that, although I've never been > to Belarus, but for the next few weeks we'll just read simplistic crap in > Polish papers about how great one of the opposition candidates is. Inform > people, have honest, fair elections then kick out Lukashenko and lock him up if > > that's what the majority decide in a democratic election. A democratic decision > > will probably be different from an undemocratic one, but you can't decide that > in advance... > What colour ribbons will we see everywhere tomorrow? With regard to Lukashenko and his election, one can I think fairly say the following: 1) He refused to have foreign, neutral observers - even from Russia - on Belarusian soil during the elections 2) Prior to the elections, his supporters used intimidatory tactics on the Opposition leaders and on potential demonstators, even using Velkom to send an SMS to every person 3) He is running a system which is not accountable either to Moscow fully nor to the EU. His way of running a state is getting in the way of a more united Europe and is adding to the barriers between Russia and the EU. 4) Certain human rights, but by no means all, are causing concern in that country, but it is not causing concern with regard to freedom of religion in the main, and also the level of prosperity there, despite the adherence to the system of command economy, seems higher than in the Ukraine. 5) Every country that relinquishes the command economy and returns to the free market system undergoes a period of inflation, instability and pain. The longer the command system lasts, the more painful it is to undo. 6) Belarus is an Agrarian state with few mineral resources or other industries that could suport 10 million people. Therefore the best option for the country is to be programmed in to biofuels production programmes and to have a major re- forestation programme. We would need to introduce work permits for young people into Poland at an early point and we should start by taking the graduates of their universities and colleges to train for a few years. If there is no major help for them planned by Europe (and no such noises were made so what was there to be gained by ordinary people to vote against Lukashenko in this election?) then they may easily - in the short term - be better off as they are or even in handing the keys back to Putin. Odpowiedz Link
russh Re: Belarus 20.03.06, 06:41 Here's an article from Yahoo 'MINSK (AFP) - When his mobile phone beeped to signal a new text message, Anatoly Korshunov thought a friend was calling. Instead it was a lesson in politics Odpowiedz Link
nasza_maggie Re: Belarus 21.03.06, 12:11 Will it all go off once the media has gone back home? -- www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2095160,00.html Revolution stops here scoffs 'the last dictator' From Jeremy Page in Minsk Alexander Lukashenko declared that he had thwarted a Western plot by winning a presidential election dismissed as a farce PRESIDENT LUKASHENKO of Belarus declared yesterday that he had thwarted a Western plot to overthrow him, pouring scorn on the thousands who protested against his election victory. About 5,000 opposition supporters protested again last night, setting up a dozen tents in central Minsk, after Western observers said that Sunday’s presidential poll had failed to meet international standards. The US, which has branded Mr Lukashenko “Europe’s last dictator”, denounced his victory and backed opposition calls for a new election. The EU said that it would impose more visa bans on Belarussian officials. But President Putin of Russia quickly congratulated Mr Lukashenko, highlighting the Kremlin’s determination to prevent another revolution in a former Soviet state. “The results of the election testify to the fact that the voters trust in your course,” he said. Mr Lukashenko brushed aside his critics at a two-hour celebratory news conference. “The revolution that was so much talked about, and so much prepared for, failed. It couldn’t be otherwise,” he began, prompting applause from the 600 audience members — mostly state officials. He derided the 10,000 people who demonstrated on Oktyabrskaya Square on Sunday night despite driving snow and a threat from the KGB chief that they could face the death penalty. “You saw the people who went on to the square. They were good-for-nothings.” He even suggested that God had intervened by sending a blizzard at the height of the protest. It was a vintage performance by the former collective farm manager who has resurrected Soviet-style economic and political controls since he was elected in 1994. He sat alone beneath a giant plastic model of the Soviet-era national emblem, which he revived after taking power. A map of Europe showed Belarus to be about the size of France. In one particularly stage-managed exchange, Sergei Gaydukevich, a candidate in the election who was widely regarded as a stooge, stood up to congratulate Mr Lukashenko. The President responded that he had voted for Mr Gaydukevich. “I have a tradition that I don’t vote for myself,” he said. A Serbian woman asked if she could kiss Mr Lukashenko, on behalf of all Serbian women, for travelling to Belgrade while it was being bombed by Nato. When a French journalist asked about his threat to “break the neck” of anyone organising protests, he responded: “Is your neck broken?” Shown on national television, the conference was sure to appeal to his supporters in the countryside and the elderly. However, it only reinforced his image among younger Belarussians and most Westerners as a deluded megalomaniac. Diplomats said that the result would exacerbate tensions between the West and Russia in Moscow’s first year as president of the G8 group. The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the human rights and security body, gave a damning assessment of the vote. A statement said: “The arbitrary abuse of state power, obviously designed to protect the incumbent President, went far beyond acceptable practice.” The Council of Europe dismissed the vote as a “farce”, while the Foreign and Commonwealth Office said that it “deeply regrets the way in which the Belarussian authorities chose to conduct this election”. Russian observers said that the election had been free and fair. “There is every reason to believe that the elections were conducted in accordance with recognised standards,” the Russian Foreign Ministry said. Odpowiedz Link
nasza_maggie Re: Belarus 26.03.06, 16:40 goodness, the scenes are so reminiscent of Poland in the 80s.......... Odpowiedz Link