Freedom of Speech in Poland :-(

08.03.06, 14:17
Jerzy Urban has lost his appeal.

wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomosci/1,53600,3200680.html

He wrote an article in NIE criticising the cynicism of the Vatican, which
insisted on displaying a clearly very sick old man for the entertainment of
the mindless flag-waving masses of tourists.
Despite what it says in the GW charges were not pressed "po doniesieniach
oburzonych czytelników", because the people who claimed to be offended by the
article had obviously not even read it, as they admitted at the time.
For legal reasons, Urban couldn't be tried for insulting religious beliefs,
so he was charged with offending a foreign head of state. Ha ha. Of course,
no Polish journalist would ever write anything offensive about Łukaszenko,
Bush, or anyone, and they are all heads of foreign states whatever you or I
might think of them.

Before JP 2's pilgrimages to Poland, the cops used to go round all the
foreigners who were zameldowani within a few km of his routes and ask them if
they were terrosrists. Before Benny 16th's visit, be very careful what you
say, because he's also the head of a little foreign state.
    • hardenfelt Re: Freedom of Speech in Poland :-( 08.03.06, 14:21
      I will try not to say what I think. Hopefully they are not yet able to detect
      thoughts. With this sentence I'm afraid I might also be a criminal.
    • usenetposts Re: Freedom of Speech in Poland :-( 08.03.06, 15:20
      Let Jerzy Urban just think himself lucky he didn't do a cartoon: I hear they're
      in vogue at the moment.
      • portulaco Re: Freedom of Speech in Poland :-( 08.03.06, 15:54
        Do the owners of that newspaper belong to Opus Dei?

        Oh... I said this!

        Bloody hell! How can I delete this?
    • kylie1 Re: Freedom of Speech in Poland :-( 09.03.06, 23:20
      I was wondering: with the poor media exposure to the thousands upon thousands
      of sex abuse scandals and on going cases, how much does an average Pole really
      know about the severity of those cases? If they nip everything in the bud
      (like they did with J. Urban), how can people really know all there is to know
      about these priests and the sickening crimes they get away with every day? It's
      like a little social club..."we teach cathehism here but don't talk about our
      sex life, our prudish, stupid and ignorant behavior". Or perhaps the
      word "priest" and "saint" are synonymous to most? I am not even talking about
      some Uganda "Spearchucker" Catholic "holiness" who was caught having little fun
      with a 12 year old Mogambo "No Shoes" Okimba. This is real and it's happening
      right under their noses. Do people in Poland realize these people deserve life
      in prison? Catholic Church is the prime breeding ground for sex offenders and
      I am sadden to admit that nothing will ever change under Pappa Razzi. More lies
      and sweeping under the carpet from the very unfriendly, austere and prudish
      church.

      That's my moan for this week smile
      • jaciapa Re: Freedom of Speech in Poland :-( 10.03.06, 01:02
        Hi Kylie,

        I am angry at your pseudo-intellectual-emotionally-charged-claptrap. Though I
        agree with some of your sentiments, the case of cardinal Petz of Poznan as he
        then was, in particular.

        Can you honestly tar the whole of the Catholic Church with the sins of a number
        of abusers ?? Please back-up your "thousands upon thousands of sex abuse
        scandals" with factual data. Back-up or shut up!!

        I tend to agree with your comment that priests commit sickening crimes & get
        away with it. And that there is "sweeping under the carpet". There is no excuse
        whatsoever for these goings on & lets hope that parishes in the USofA, Ireland,
        the UK, etc, where scandals have been committed/exposed, do go under
        (financially). But lets also keep some sense of perspective, for example our Jan
        Pawel 2.

        If this is your moan of the week, I dread to think of your moan of the month ,
        let alone your moan of the year. But please - spoute forth your pearls of "wisdom".

        I totally agree with you that guilty parties deserve the most severe form of
        punishment. Kaczynski himself propounds the "death penalty" for certain types of
        crime.

        Kylie, can you also please substantiate, I'm asking for verifiable factal data,
        that the "Catholic Church is a prime breeding ground for sex offenders".

        Kylie, to date I've read your comments, in the various forums, including your
        moderator role (perhaps I got the terminology wrong) on uncle Davey's website,
        with interest. But today you exposed yourself somewhat unflatteringly.

        In my view you have done yourself an injustice through overstating your case.
        But perhaps there is wisdom in your madness (colloquially not literally) - in
        that you wish to debase the Catholic faith in favour of some other religous
        denomination.

        That's fine but if so, please be honest about it. I myself, for example, am a
        Catholic by upbringing, but hold Buddhism in great esteem. Where do you stand ??

        Regards,

        Janek



        • kylie1 Re: Freedom of Speech in Poland :-( 10.03.06, 03:35
          > I am angry at your pseudo-intellectual-emotionally-charged-claptrap

          Well, tough titties, "jaciapa" ...btw. I can tell your name has defitely
          something to do with the way your brain works.

          In any case, I don't respond to aggressive and insulting comments. I don't OWE
          YOU any explanations and I don't apprceiate your verbal onslaught...primitive,
          showing your terrible lack of tact and maturity.

          > I totally agree with you that guilty parties deserve the most severe form of

          See, I don't really give horses petut if you agree with me or not.

          >But today you exposed yourself somewhat unflatteringly.

          Ah, I see. By whose standards?


          >Back-up or shut up!!

          You are as subtle as the proverbial foreign object in a punch bowl. I am not
          backing up just because some "I-think-I-know-it-all-japaciapa with severely
          hurt moral indignation shows up here yapping away at me and blowing off steam.

          > our Jan Pawel 2.

          OUR? Not mine, baby. I am NOT a Catholic. Never heard of Cardinal Petz either.

          > If this is your moan of the week, I dread to think of your moan of the month ,
          > let alone your moan of the year. But please - spoute forth your pearls
          of "wisd
          > om".

          I certainly will. If you have any plans of addressing me in the future, don't
          bother. There will be no reply. I find very little in common with people
          lacking tact, poise and manners. And, please, stop foaming at the mouth. It's
          starting to show.

          > Kylie, can you also please substantiate

          I don't talk to people with indignant and righteous rage. I am surprised to
          find the word "please" in your message. ("please shut up" or "please"
          substantiate"... Whatever)

          >But perhaps there is wisdom in your madness (colloquially not literally)

          "colloquially" - you are so kind.


          > please be honest about it.

          Another "please".Someone might think you actually do have manners.

          Instead of flapping your gums, do your homework, will you. Look up the
          statistics, find out about Ireland, Western Europe, Canada - especially the
          orphanage cases (still open and before courts) figures and numbers across the
          United States, and if you are lucky you MIGHT find interesting figures about
          South America.

          Another one on my "respond list" bites the dust.
          • jaciapa Re: Freedom of Speech in Poland :-( 10.03.06, 11:16
            Hi Kylie,

            I expressed my feelings (I am entitled to feel angry), my opinions (free
            speech), agreed with you (where I could) - and simply asked you to substantiate
            your sweeping statements, where, in my view they seemed over the top.

            In reply you chose to take umbrage & draw on sarcasm. In your 1st post you did
            expose yourself unflatteringly. In your 2nd you went a step further.

            I don't have a problem with that or with you. But, going by the manner of your
            reply, perhaps you need to look inside yourself & examine the source of (what I
            perceive to be) unresolved issues within your inner sanctum. We're all humans
            with our faults & frailties.

            Chapter closed.

            Take care,

            Janek
            • kylie1 Re: Freedom of Speech in Poland :-( 11.03.06, 04:33
              >I expressed my feelings

              so did I buddy.

              > my opinions (free speech)

              and that includes free insults, I suppose. Is that your little bonus just like
              a scratch and save?

              > simply asked you to substantiate

              do you simply tell women to SHUT UP when you want them to substantiate?

              >In reply you chose to take umbrage & draw on sarcasm.

              as if the "pearls of wisdom" jab and a few others weren't sarcastic enough...

              > In your 1st post you did expose yourself unflatteringly.

              didn't you just say we have the right to our opinions?


              >In your 2nd you went a step further.

              I was just catching up with you.

              >perhaps you need to look inside yourself & examine the source of (what I
              perceive to be) unresolved issues within your inner sanctum. We're all humans
              with our faults & frailties.

              well, boy or boy, after being insulted I am getting a smart advise from janek
              to check up on my own imperfections. You know people in glass houses shouldn't
              throw stones. Something for you to think about maybe?...

              The less you say the better, janek.
        • ianek70 Re: Freedom of Speech in Poland :-( 10.03.06, 09:56
          jaciapa napisał:


          > I tend to agree with your comment that priests commit sickening crimes & get
          > away with it. And that there is "sweeping under the carpet". There is no
          excuse
          > whatsoever for these goings on & lets hope that parishes in the USofA,
          Ireland,
          > the UK, etc, where scandals have been committed/exposed, do go under
          > (financially).

          You think it doesn't happen in Poland?

          But lets also keep some sense of perspective, for example our Ja
          > n
          > Pawel 2.

          What's the connection between JP2 and sex scandals?

          > Kaczynski himself propounds the "death penalty" for certain types o
          > f
          > crime.

          Demagogy doesn't protect children.

          > Kylie, can you also please substantiate, I'm asking for verifiable factal
          data,
          > that the "Catholic Church is a prime breeding ground for sex offenders".

          Find the online edition of any non-Polish newspaper which has an archive.
          In the "search" field, type the words "Catholic church".
          Half of the stories you find will be about sexual abuse by priests.
          • jaciapa Re: Freedom of Speech in Poland :-( 10.03.06, 11:27
            Hi ianek70,

            A couple of points re your comment on my post.

            I did not mean to exclude Poland from the "guilty" list. If anything there may
            be more "sweeping under the carpet". This is my feeling but I have no evidence.

            A propos JP2, there is no connection between him & sex scandals. I believe he
            was a walking saint.

            Regards,

            Janek
    • firemouse Boundaries of behaviour 10.03.06, 10:29
      Apart form all of this set-up made by GW and other "progressive" media, I must
      say that NIE is a piece of tihs and, well, deserves some punishment for what
      they write. Maybe this case was set on so called "safe ground", but I wonder how
      many newspapers make money on attacking the Catholic Church and i wonder even
      more that people buy the stories.

      A good example is "Fakty i Mity" or something, which is run by an ex-priest, and
      he makes very comfortable living out of selling unbelieveable stories to the
      crowds. Not to say, he behaves no better than the people in his stories.

      NIE is far below any acceptable level of ridiculousity and does not deserve to
      be called journalism, according to me. Freedom of speech does not mean I can
      tell anything what comes to my mind. Well, good that press keeps eye on public
      behaviour of institutions, but I see no reason to support something what should
      be printed on toilet paper.

      FM
      • varsovian Re: Boundaries of behaviour 10.03.06, 10:37
        I've been asked in church to thank God I'm not a foreigner ... (only Poles make
        it to Heaven).
        I go to church in spite of my priests and in spite of the shrine to Radio
        Maryja at the entrance.
        • firemouse Re: Boundaries of behaviour 10.03.06, 11:19
          I was never confronted with such a situation, but again, they are all human.

          Heh, only Poles make it to heaven smile ROTFL

          What parish is this?
        • usenetposts Re: Boundaries of behaviour 11.03.06, 12:59
          varsovian napisał:

          > I've been asked in church to thank God I'm not a foreigner ... (only
          > Poles make it to Heaven).

          Well, you're not a johnny foreigner. You're ENGLISH! Rejoyce and be exceedinge
          glaede!

          > I go to church in spite of my priests and in spite of the shrine to Radio
          > Maryja at the entrance.

          I think whatever church we go to, we will find people in it who are
          objectionable to us. I take respite in the fact that no doubt I am
          objectionable to them also.
      • ianek70 Fakty i Mity & NIE 10.03.06, 10:57
        firemouse napisał:


        > A good example is "Fakty i Mity" or something, which is run by an ex-priest,
        an
        > d
        > he makes very comfortable living out of selling unbelieveable stories to the
        > crowds.

        I agree Fakty i Mity is very boring, I've tried to read it but I couldn't, it
        was just so repetitive.
        Everyone knows the Polish Catholic church is above the law, that power
        corrupts, and that since there are so many priests in this country (who are
        only human after all) then obviously some of them must be crooks and perverts.
        To publish a newspaper reporting exclusively on these stories requires an
        obsessive paranoid hatred of the church, although if it makes a profit then
        there must be a lot of Poles with a bad enough personal grudge against the
        church to read it...

        > NIE is far below any acceptable level of ridiculousity and does not deserve to
        > be called journalism, according to me.

        NIE is a fairly good barometer of the political situation in Poland.
        If things are going badly (as they usually are), it keeps Urban busy describing
        how and why, and it's generally worth reading.
        But when things are going well in Poland (and that's not often), and there's no
        interesting scandals, NIE resorts to cheap provocation.
        And of course it's always the cheap provocation that people (non-readers,
        anyway) remember, which damages NIE's reputation. The level of investigative
        journalism is generally good, the language interesting, although the choice of
        subject matter (especially in the editorials) can be eccentric.
        • firemouse Re: Fakty i Mity & NIE 10.03.06, 11:16
          Position of Polish government towards Catholic Church in Poland is absurd. Look
          at this Radio Maryja thing, this is pure comedy. Interesting, the Church itself
          tolerates it.

          But this is one thing and the Church or faith is another one.

          I don't say all is ideal there but I know enough good examples of priests to
          keep myself positive about the future.

          You have interesting comments on NIE. It can be true, but I remember Urban
          making his internal games for SLD with the newspaper (supporting ones, despising
          others) so for me it is biased. After all, this is private enterprise running
          NIE so why should he bother. I think that Urban feels comfortable with the
          position of scandalist.
          • ianek70 Re: Fakty i Mity & NIE 10.03.06, 12:01
            firemouse napisał:


            > I don't say all is ideal there but I know enough good examples of priests to
            > keep myself positive about the future.

            That's perfectly true, there are very many priests who work hard in difficult
            conditions, and do a lot of good for their communities.

            > You have interesting comments on NIE. It can be true, but I remember Urban
            > making his internal games for SLD with the newspaper (supporting ones,
            despisin
            > g
            > others) so for me it is biased.

            Of course it's biased, anyone with an opinion is biased.
            Urban and his people have always made it clear they are part of the left, so
            their criticism of SLD etc is more believable than the generalised bollocks
            that, for example, Nasz Dziennik writes about the left.

            > I think that Urban feels comfortable with the
            > position of scandalist.

            NIE seems to have two distinct positions - being left-wing, and being anti-
            right-wing. Urban is an intelligent man, and he can just as easily write
            sensible, logical left-wing arguments and analyses of events as he can provoke
            and satirise conservatives. He is often distasteful, but that's a good way to
            attack conservatives - for them, a rational argument doesn't count if it
            contains the word "dupa", so we can laugh at their superficial snobbism.
            The article about the pope was a good example of that.
            • firemouse Re: Fakty i Mity & NIE 10.03.06, 13:01
              ianek70 napisał:


              > Of course it's biased, anyone with an opinion is biased.
              > Urban and his people have always made it clear they are part of the left, so
              > their criticism of SLD etc is more believable than the generalised bollocks
              > that, for example, Nasz Dziennik writes about the left.

              Not really, because I suppose that SLD is (was) torn between several "fractions"
              and Urban supports these or those, depending who is he drinking with. So these
              internal games are interesting, but opinions are not very credible. Certainly
              more anyway than these from Nasz Dziennik, where my first reaction is always
              "OMG they run out of subjects again".

              > > I think that Urban feels comfortable with the
              > > position of scandalist.
              >
              > NIE seems to have two distinct positions - being left-wing, and being anti-
              > right-wing. Urban is an intelligent man, and he can just as easily write
              > sensible, logical left-wing arguments and analyses of events as he can provoke
              > and satirise conservatives. He is often distasteful, but that's a good way to
              > attack conservatives - for them, a rational argument doesn't count if it
              > contains the word "dupa", so we can laugh at their superficial snobbism.
              > The article about the pope was a good example of that.
        • portulaco Re: Fakty i Mity & NIE 10.03.06, 11:21
          <<The level of investigative journalism is generally good>>

          The investigative journalism in my opinion is nowadays virtually gone, the
          media belong to powerfull groups and investors, the rulles are dictated from
          above.

          If some press or journalist dares to say something about those "untouchables"
          they're doomed and placed in the journalists limbo.

          Questions regarding religion or better criticism about the main Western
          religion are still a delicate matter mostly in the Catholic conservative
          countries - my country Portugal included -







          • firemouse Very true 10.03.06, 13:22
            It's nothing wrong in pointing problems, the case is how you make it.

            It's like you would read in Polish newspaper that these Portuguese are insane
            becuse they eat sardines. We all know that no normal person would eat sardines
            because one should eat pigs.

            It's an immediate drop of hands of course. If one wants to start an intriguing
            discussion about something, this should be done in a very delicate manner.
            Especially if the subject is about the national way of life or a religion which
            made a big part of the country history.

            I always say that religion is not a supermarket whre you can pick up what you
            like. Either you agree with the rules or not. There are enough religions in the
            world to choose something or nothing if one prefers. But the rules say nothing
            about running the state by any religion, so I oppose against preferring one
            religion above others, in this or another way. But when I see something wrong I
            should be able to say it - in an acceptable way of course (I mean, not insulting
            anybody's beliefs).

            Yes, today's media are in the hands of "progressive" journalists, at least in
            Poland, so we don't have right-wing media here. Hey, we even have no
            conservative or whatever right-oriented party in Sejm. Nor in TV or polls
            forecasts. Media make people believe that some undercover socialists are
            conservative party (like PiS), amazingly correctly they put PO in the center but
            occasionally we hear that this is right-wing extremes. The liberals. OK, maybe,
            but more of social flavour like Mill or Keynes, but long gone are times when
            liberals were deemed to be a left-extreme smile Still, PO is mystery for me as far
            as we discuss their economy program.
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