Poland, equals with Portugal & Greece? When?

14.03.06, 10:27
According to the World Economic Forum my country - Portugal - was placed in
the 14th place in the 15 EU, behind us only Greece regarding the criteria for
development, later even Greece was in front... sad

Nowadays in the 25 members EU Portugal is placed in the 17th position,
overtaken by Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania (Estonia is nowadays in front of
Spain and even Italy).

Our politicians (mostly the Bilderberg servent Durao Barroso) had the
scandinavian development model in mind smile))) but actually the new EU members
are approaching quite fast, let's say that Portuguese, Spanish, Italians and
Greeks are seeing the new EU members in the rear view mirror and they can
even read the number plates, other new members are already saying "bite my
dust!" and waving.

In the Portuguese case and according to WEF this problem is due mostly to:

- Portuguese citizens in general

- Poor education and qualification of workers

- Companies and public services

- Lack of money to buy computers and connect to the WWW.

What about Poland? Will be easy to win this race or it will take lot of time?




    • portulaco Re: Poland, equals with Portugal & Greece? When? 15.03.06, 14:35
      Hey Mister! Hey Mister!

      I'm here standing for few days, eating dust, smelling exhaust fumes or even worse the terrible deo-spray of the old lady working here in the office, people passing and they don't even comment my post... sad

      Some comments? Maybe even a simple... it's not interesting mate? I can bargain putting my hands in the head to be more dramatic...

      Hey Mr! Hey Mr!!! Don't go away!!!

      • usenetposts Re: Poland, equals with Portugal & Greece? When? 15.03.06, 15:12
        Actually, it is fairly interesting that you went from 14/15 to 17 out of 25.
        Which countries overtook you, out of interest?

        I didn't comment at first, as I was a bit intimidated when I saw you attack the
        Bilderberg group. I'm only any good when it comes to provoking the wrath of
        small potatoes pressure groups like the entire Muslim world. I wouldn't last 5
        minutes if I got in the Bilderbergers' bad books.
        • portulaco Re: Poland, equals with Portugal & Greece? When? 15.03.06, 15:27
          You're right usenetposts this information it's not complete, it was taken from some Portuguese site and I didn't place the url... mea culpa.

          The article didn't refered a few countries it's true.

          Don't worry about the Bilderbergs, they don't loose their precious time with conspiracy theories and another sad stories but the book in Portugal it's not available and the bookshops don't have answers from the editor "Temas & Debates" about delivery terms and availabilty in spite of the demand.

          Some Portuguese politicians are pointed in that book from the Argentinian journalist Daniel Estulin as part of this group mainly the former PM's Pinto Balsemao and Antonio Guterres, another book pointing and prooving the dirty bussinesses of the most important left party in my country was also banned from bookshops.

          I don't know about Poland but I think there's not such a strong governmental control over this issues.
      • ianek70 Re: Poland, equals with Portugal & Greece? When? 15.03.06, 15:23
        There's some graffitti on a wall near where I live in Katowice that
        says "ZA ... LAT BĘDZIEMY HISZPANIĄ".
        This is kind of organic graffitti, it changes regularly. At the moment it says
        ZA 20 LAT, a year ago it said ZA 10 LAT and the first time I saw it (about 10
        years ago) it said ZA 20 LAT, although two or three years ago it said ZA 5 LAT.
        But it's interesting that the Polish media never compare Poland with
        neighbouring countries, or with similar countries, but only with the richest
        ones, like Sweden or Japan. They never say Poland is "almost as rich as
        Portugal" or "the hospitals are better than in Ukraine", it's always "we're
        even poorer than Portugal" or "oh, the buses in Finland are beautiful and ours
        are crap".
        I reckon there'll be the same point of view even when Poland is richer and more
        successful than Greece or Portugal. They'll just moan that "We're still poorer
        than Canada, and Greece is even poorer than us!"
        In Portugal, do people really care whether they're the 14th or 17th richest
        country? Do newspapers panic, that "Soon we'll be as poor as Poland?" or "Hey,
        Poland's almost as rich as us!"?
        It's interesting, because in Scotland they usually compare things to England,
        which is completely pointless because everyone there knows that everything is
        either 5% better than in England, or 3.5% worse, or exactly the same.
    • russh Re: Poland, equals with Portugal & Greece? When? 15.03.06, 15:49
      What's your opinion as a Portugese?
      • portulaco Re: Poland, equals with Portugal & Greece? When? 15.03.06, 18:23
        Regarding development and infrastructures I believe Poland will be developing at light speed comparing to Portugal.

        What I really hope is that the EU funds will be used properly and not mostly to buy expansive cars and nice flats like in my country.

        For now salaries are still low and that makes a significant diference in the cost of production, I can see that in the company I'm working, in few years with the cost of life approaching Western Europe standarts it will be a serious problem to be competitive.

        For instance Lippert Unipol company droped the production of Polishing buffs and wheels in France (Alsace) then they moved to Portugal and now even in Portugal it's no more profitable.

        Some time ago I was interviewed by a Portuguese radio journalist, he wanted to know my point of view about the delocalization of Indesit Co. from Oeiras (Near Lisbon) to Lodz and mostly if Poland is a real threat to Portugal.

        I told him that of course it is as well as the other new members, apart from the cork industry, the turism and some powerful economical groups (like SONAE, Gerónimo Martins Millenium BCP) Portugal is loosing ground to this part of Europe.

        Poland it´s placed in the heart of Europe this is ideal for trade, the labour force is huge and mostly there are really talented young people, pitty that as usual they are going to live abroad since here you can only have a real good job if daddy knows somebody important.

        Anyway I'm leaving here permanently since 2004 so I'm still learning, until now I'm quite optimistic regarding the future of this country that I love smile
        • russh Re: Poland, equals with Portugal & Greece? When? 15.03.06, 18:51
          For what it's worth, I agree with you.

          I think that Poland will do comparatively well over the next few years. How well
          depends on how they use the EU money (infrastucture), and improve the
          bureaucracy & legal systems to make the country more business friendly. From
          what I've seen so far, this current government will be more of a hindrance than
          a help.

          With regards to costs, they will inevitably increase, but in theory, with such a
          high unemployment level, and a fairly high level of education, at least labour
          costs should be contained for a period. After that, it depends on how
          productivity improves, as the only way it can maintain competitiveness is to
          improve productivity in line with costs.

          I remember buying ceramics from Portugal some years ago. Quality not bad (not as
          good as Italian, Spanish or British), but significantly cheaper. It was not long
          before costs started to creep up, competitiveness lost (I'm not sure if it was
          because of corporate greed / shortsightedness, or labour costs increasing), and
          orders taken to China.

          A great pity, and I fear the same may happen all too quickly in Poland. There is
          no advantage to Poland at present as a production center for export purposes,
          apart from it's relatively low cost base. Lose this, and it becomes an
          investment to gain access to the Polish market only.
          • portulaco Re: Poland, equals with Portugal & Greece? When? 15.03.06, 19:42
            As you probably know I´m living in Lodz and I really can't find nothing from Portugal apart from some olive oil here and there - anyway bottled in Poland - the same goes for wine and in some cases they eaven give Spanish names to the wines.

            The company were I'm working has no chance but to delocalize part of the production to China otherwise it's a dead end, no chance at all, our costumers are delocalizing too and if you don't pack and go where the market is... the end is at the corner.

            5 months ago I went for the first time to China - Suzhou - and I really came home thinking what's wrong in the old Europe, there in Suzhou you can see all of them, gigantic factories, warehouses and most of all excelent conditions to start a bussiness and to live, a real new colonialism.

            The support from Chinese government, the follow up and exactly that business friendly attitude was absolutely fantastic!

            What is still holding our old continent in my opinion "moim zdaniem" as Polish say is the automobile industry, services and the high-tech companies and even those are probably going nowhere fast.

            I couldn't stop thinking about that old song from Imagination "Illusion", that's what we have nowadays.





            • russh Re: Poland, equals with Portugal & Greece? When? 15.03.06, 21:32
              You've hit it in one I think.

              Either we (Europe) start to wake up - especially the French, who believe the
              answer to everything is in protectionism (and I think that this Polish
              government has similar thoughts) - and realise that investment, especially in
              technology, is the only way forward (the Chinese last year invested more than
              Europe and the states in this as well), or we might as well build a gigantic
              wall around Europe and try and become totally self-sufficient, whilst at the
              same time keeping our standards of living - impossible.

              We need to realise that no-one owes us anything, and that the competition is
              only just starting. There are another 400 million Chinese, and a similar amount
              of Indians who will be seeking alternative employment (to their current
              agricultural positions) over the next 20 years. That's almost twice the
              population of the EU, and the goods that they produce will have to be sold
              somewhere.
Pełna wersja