So much talk, and so little action

14.03.06, 18:26
uk.news.yahoo.com/14032006/325/mps-slam-asylum-system-failures.html
    • kylie1 Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 05:04
      I wonder how the number of asylum seekers got so high? Can anyone just show up
      and they let you in? After that they decide to screen your application and they
      make a decision? How does that work in Britain, russh?

      smile
      • ianek70 Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 10:53
        The problem is that it doesn't work.
        A lot of people take advantage of the system's inefficiency (that's just human
        nature) which makes the system even more inefficient.
        You claim asylum and the state takes care of you while they slowly investigate
        your claim. You could be kept in a B&B, it could be a little concentration
        camp, you might be "dispersed" to a slum in Glasgow and given a horrible
        council flat. This will annoy a lot of the neighbours, which again is
        understandable, since they may have been on a list for months or years to get
        the same horrible flat. So an asylum seeker who is treated as a second class
        citizen is resented by local people who are treated as third class citizens.
        The worst thing about the system (both for the genuine refugees and for the UK
        taxpayers) is that a chancer who knows he'll never be accepted, and is quite
        happy to live off state benefits, has the same status as a doctor or teacher
        who has fled real and terrible persecution at home, and who could contribute a
        lot to the local community if he was allowed to work. But he isn't.
        And then when they reject your claim and want to deport you they can't, because
        you've been living with your cousin in London for the past 6 months.
        • usenetposts Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 12:09
          ianek70 napisał:

          > The problem is that it doesn't work.
          > A lot of people take advantage of the system's inefficiency (that's just
          human
          > nature) which makes the system even more inefficient.
          > You claim asylum and the state takes care of you while they slowly
          investigate
          > your claim. You could be kept in a B&B, it could be a little concentration
          > camp, you might be "dispersed" to a slum in Glasgow and given a horrible
          > council flat. This will annoy a lot of the neighbours, which again is
          > understandable, since they may have been on a list for months or years to get
          > the same horrible flat. So an asylum seeker who is treated as a second class
          > citizen is resented by local people who are treated as third class citizens.
          > The worst thing about the system (both for the genuine refugees and for the
          UK
          > taxpayers) is that a chancer who knows he'll never be accepted, and is quite
          > happy to live off state benefits, has the same status as a doctor or teacher
          > who has fled real and terrible persecution at home, and who could contribute
          a
          > lot to the local community if he was allowed to work. But he isn't.
          > And then when they reject your claim and want to deport you they can't,
          because
          >
          > you've been living with your cousin in London for the past 6 months.

          Star post.
          • nasza_maggie Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 12:33
            ok, but doesn't the immigration problem, stem somewhat from 'imperial guilt'?
            • usenetposts Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 13:13
              nasza_maggie napisała:

              > ok, but doesn't the immigration problem, stem somewhat from 'imperial guilt'?

              If it does, then once again it's the working class in the UK who are suffering
              because of it - our working class had no benefit from empire - they were
              treated in the industrial revolution like worse than slaves, and no better than
              people in the colonies. Why should they now be made to wait longer for council
              flats in order to accommodate people who kicked us out of their country and now
              want to come to ours?
            • bartis_ervin Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 13:44

              "All dogs go to heaven"
              The dog in the picture is extremely similar to my dog. He was found by my wife
              some 5 years ago, so maybe before that he was a model?

              pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/aniaandervin/detail?.dir=9f04&.dnm=e495.jpg&.src=ph
              pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/aniaandervin/detail?.dir=9f04&.dnm=4e2b.jpg&.src=ph
              Ervin

              Thebartiski.blogspot.com
              • nasza_maggie ervin 15.03.06, 23:07
                bartis_ervin napisał:

                >
                > "All dogs go to heaven"
                > The dog in the picture is extremely similar to my dog. He was found by my wife
                > some 5 years ago, so maybe before that he was a model?
                >
                > pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/aniaandervin/detail?.dir=9f04&.dnm=e495.jpg&.src=ph
                > pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/aniaandervin/detail?.dir=9f04&.dnm=4e2b.jpg&.src=ph
                > Ervin
                >
                > Thebartiski.blogspot.com



                Ervin,

                That really brought tears to my eyes uncertain
                Well, that's not possible, the picture was taken approx. 5 years ago.
                Saba was black and she was a shesmile
                A she was brought by me from London to Warsaw.
                She was also the only Saba in town, until she came to Polandsmile
                She was my best friend and eh..............
                • bartis_ervin Re: ervin 16.03.06, 09:28

                  Really sorry...
                  She looks very cute..

                  Ervin

                  Thebartiski.blogspot.com
            • ianek70 Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 14:48
              nasza_maggie napisała:

              > ok, but doesn't the immigration problem, stem somewhat from 'imperial guilt'?

              Immigration and asylum are two different matters, connected by the media more
              than they should be.
              There were waves of asylum seekers from places like Kosovo and Algeria, which
              were nothing to do with the British Empire. These people were (mostly, anyway)
              in genuine danger in their home countries, and were supported by the British
              state while their applications were read, lost and then read again by the
              Appropriate Authorities.
              They were bracketed together by right-wing tabloid toilet paper like the Sun
              and Daily Express with illegal immigrants, including at that time a lot of
              Poles, who, being illegal then, got nothing from the state and had to work.
              Put these groups of people together, then add those who may or may not have a
              good reason to be in the UK, but are a certain colour or religion, and you get
              a Huge Wave of something. Some people are still prejudiced against East
              Europeans.
              Interestingly, those same crappy tabloids were the ones that had been writing a
              few years before about Irish "benefit tourists" (until it was pointed out that
              benefits in Ireland were actually higher than in the UK), and who were
              extremely proud of the fact that 100,000 French folk had moved to Britain to
              work.
              These particular French economic migrants were, of course, mainly white, since
              non-whites that come to Britain to work are not usually praised by the Tory
              gutter press.
              • russh Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 15:45
                > They were bracketed together by right-wing tabloid toilet paper like the Sun

                I totally agreed with your 1st post on the subject, and now cannot agree with
                your political connotations in this one.

                Firstly the Sun has twice backed a Labour election campaign, so whilst I agree
                that it is very much shite gutter press (and unfortunately probably the most
                influential paper in the UK), how can you term it right wing? It is popularist,
                whatever the flavour of the day is. The majority of Brits, left or right wing,
                are anti both mass immigration and mass asylum (and the numbers given would rate
                this as mass asylum), and these papers just stoke it up a bit. The Mirror was no
                better (I've not seen it for years).

                • ianek70 Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 16:57
                  russh napisał:

                  > > They were bracketed together by right-wing tabloid toilet paper like the
                  > Sun
                  >
                  > I totally agreed with your 1st post on the subject, and now cannot agree with
                  > your political connotations in this one.
                  >
                  > Firstly the Sun has twice backed a Labour election campaign, so whilst I agree
                  > that it is very much shite gutter press (and unfortunately probably the most
                  > influential paper in the UK), how can you term it right wing? It is
                  popularist,
                  > whatever the flavour of the day is.

                  Good point, I suppose, so let's say populist, opportunist gutter press.

                  > The majority of Brits, left or right wing,
                  > are anti both mass immigration and mass asylum (and the numbers given would
                  rat
                  > e
                  > this as mass asylum), and these papers just stoke it up a bit.

                  They stoke it up more than a bit - by lumping together all types of immigrants,
                  migrants and incomers, and focussing on the chancers who abuse the system, or
                  on the extremist troublemakers who have no respect for their supposedly adopted
                  country, these papers create xenophobia and fear among people who have no other
                  sources of information on the subject.
                  Those who live in multi-ethnic areas know that different cultures don't always
                  live in perfect hippy-style harmony, and that there's various tensions, but
                  they also know there's no open warfare on the streets. Those who live in inner
                  cities or any deprived areas know that people of all races exploit loopholes in
                  the welfare system.
                  Daily Express readers don't know this - they read the gutter press and believe
                  that outside their little middle-class ghettoes there are pogroms of white
                  people, "East Europeans" with dozens of children collecting sacks of money from
                  the dole office, and that the word "Christmas" has been banned.
                • usenetposts Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 17:04
                  russh napisał:

                  > > They were bracketed together by right-wing tabloid toilet paper like the
                  > Sun
                  >
                  > I totally agreed with your 1st post on the subject, and now cannot agree with
                  > your political connotations in this one.
                  >
                  > Firstly the Sun has twice backed a Labour election campaign, so whilst I agree
                  > that it is very much shite gutter press (and unfortunately probably the most
                  > influential paper in the UK), how can you term it right wing? It is
                  popularist,
                  > whatever the flavour of the day is. The majority of Brits, left or right wing,
                  > are anti both mass immigration and mass asylum (and the numbers given would
                  rat
                  > e
                  > this as mass asylum), and these papers just stoke it up a bit. The Mirror was
                  n
                  > o
                  > better (I've not seen it for years).
                  >

                  I haven't seen it since my grandma died. She used to get it.

                  I agree with most of your points above, and I just want to add that Tony's
                  government is if anything more likely to send them home than the previous Tory
                  govts were, and I think the reason is that, despite Britain having been a
                  socialist nation as far as the ballot box is concerned, we've have a gutful of
                  economic migrancy and a gutful of paying people especially of a certain
                  crescent-shaped persuasion to come and live here on our cost whilst plotting
                  attacks on their neighbours and the downfall of our government.

                  This country got great by hanging, drawing and quartering those who wanted to
                  blow up its parliament and its institutions, but these days we put them in
                  warm, comfy rooms, feed them for life and let them play chess during
                  socialisation.

                  It is any wonder they laugh at us and hold us in contempt and derision?
                  • russh Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 18:09
                    > I agree with most of your points above, and I just want to add that Tony's
                    > government is if anything more likely to send them home than the previous Tory
                    > govts were, and I think the reason is that, despite Britain having been a
                    > socialist nation as far as the ballot box is concerned, we've have a gutful of
                    > economic migrancy and a gutful of paying people especially of a certain
                    > crescent-shaped persuasion to come and live here on our cost whilst plotting
                    > attacks on their neighbours and the downfall of our government.
                    >
                    > This country got great by hanging, drawing and quartering those who wanted to
                    > blow up its parliament and its institutions, but these days we put them in
                    > warm, comfy rooms, feed them for life and let them play chess during
                    > socialisation.
                    >
                    > It is any wonder they laugh at us and hold us in contempt and derision?

                    Agreed. I think that the time is coming though when the silent majority
                    (especially the gutter press readers) will make their up-to-now silent thoughts
                    heard, and not before time. The latest is the pensions scandal. They've had
                    enough, and although it takes a lot to get them started, I think we're nearly
                    there. Long live the revolution!
                  • ianek70 Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 20:12
                    usenetposts napisał:

                    > This country got great by hanging, drawing and quartering those who wanted to
                    > blow up its parliament and its institutions,

                    No it didn't. It got great by being on an island and therefore avoiding a lot
                    of the bad and also good shit that divided the rest of Europe, and then by
                    exploiting its island heritage (ie ability to organise a good navy) to invade
                    small defenceless nations. And also large politically unstable countries (that
                    was quite clever).
                    Then, the Brits exploited the technology of the industrial revolution
                    (developed while continental Europe was busy doing continental stuff like
                    cooking and fighting wars) to dig mines and build factories in the new
                    colonies, and to construct railway lines from the mines to the coast and the
                    waiting ships.
                    They also built schools and hospitals, and developed efficient administration,
                    which many people forget.
                    And they traded slaves, which nobody forgets, and they shouldn't, but it was
                    too long ago for anyone to still bear a personal grudge.

                    Britain didn't achieve success by persecuting and executing dissenters. In
                    fact, Britain was never very good at persecuting people. They burned witches,
                    sent heretics to America and exiled trade unionists to Australia for 7 years,
                    then brought them back.

                    > It is any wonder they laugh at us and hold us in contempt and derision?

                    Who? A few morons with bombs who hold the entire civilised world in contempt?
                    Britain is chaotic and badly organised, but relatively free. Nobody is forced
                    to integrate, nobody is prevented from integrating, it's left to the good will
                    of individuals. And it works better than in France, an extremely well organised
                    country.
                    But as has been said, the system of vetting and accepting asylum seekers and
                    other immigrants basically doesn't work, and there are limits to people's good
                    will.
                    • usenetposts Re: So much talk, and so little action 15.03.06, 21:48
                      ianek70 napisał:

                      > usenetposts napisał:
                      >
                      > > This country got great by hanging, drawing and quartering those who wante
                      > d to
                      > > blow up its parliament and its institutions,
                      >
                      > No it didn't. It got great by being on an island and therefore avoiding a lot
                      > of the bad and also good shit that divided the rest of Europe, and then by
                      > exploiting its island heritage (ie ability to organise a good navy) to invade
                      > small defenceless nations. And also large politically unstable countries
                      (that
                      > was quite clever).

                      Well, since it still is an island, then why has it gone down the tubes?

                      Britain didn't stop being an Island, it just stopped being strict towards
                      wrongdoers.

                      It's not just the terrorists, it's the criminals too. We spend money on a great
                      police force, but it's the bloody legal industry that messes everything up.

                      Getting these people off on technicalities, being willing to stand up in
                      defence of terrorists, anything to make money for their caste. The legal
                      profession are parasites, actually, in Britain, and just make the reat of us
                      sick. And they are the ones behind the ridiculous problems in immigration. All
                      these people, the first thing they do is get what's called an "immigration
                      lawyer" - the London phone books are full of them. They are the ones causing
                      the government to keep them here in limbo, because while that goes on a lot of
                      the money is not just feeding and clothing them, and housing them - it's also
                      providing them with Legal Aid - all at rates that the tax payer, who foots the
                      bill, could only dream about for his hourly grind.

                      The lawyers have made this country go down the tubes. It still is an Island,
                      but whereas once before we had the rule of law, now we have the rule of
                      lawyers, which is very different.

                      > Then, the Brits exploited the technology of the industrial revolution
                      > (developed while continental Europe was busy doing continental stuff like
                      > cooking and fighting wars) to dig mines and build factories in the new
                      > colonies, and to construct railway lines from the mines to the coast and the
                      > waiting ships.
                      > They also built schools and hospitals, and developed efficient
                      administration,
                      > which many people forget.

                      And then they topped it off by letting the lawyers have too much power, more
                      than the very government itself, and everything started going downhill.

                      > And they traded slaves, which nobody forgets, and they shouldn't, but it was
                      > too long ago for anyone to still bear a personal grudge.
                      >

                      Those slaves were sold out by their own peoples, which largely believed in
                      Islam, in West Africa. In depriving them of their liberty, their lives at least
                      were spared.

                      > Britain didn't achieve success by persecuting and executing dissenters. In
                      > fact, Britain was never very good at persecuting people. They burned witches,
                      > sent heretics to America and exiled trade unionists to Australia for 7 years,
                      > then brought them back.

                      We were very good at law and order, until we gave the people entrusted with
                      justice absolute power, which absolutely corrupted them.


                      >
                      > > It is any wonder they laugh at us and hold us in contempt and derision?
                      >
                      > Who? A few morons with bombs who hold the entire civilised world in contempt?

                      No, I am referring to 300 million people, of whom even the children are ready
                      to fight.

                      > Britain is chaotic and badly organised, but relatively free. Nobody is forced
                      > to integrate, nobody is prevented from integrating, it's left to the good
                      will
                      > of individuals. And it works better than in France, an extremely well
                      organised
                      >
                      > country.

                      They also need to get their act together. They may not have the same problem
                      with their justice system that we do, but they have been so laissez-faire that
                      je ne sais quoi they are gonna do about it.

                      > But as has been said, the system of vetting and accepting asylum seekers and
                      > other immigrants basically doesn't work, and there are limits to people's
                      good
                      > will.

                      True.
                      • bartis_ervin Re: So much talk, and so little action 16.03.06, 09:31

                        "The legal profession are parasites, actually, in Britain, and just make the
                        reat of us sick."

                        As you once said, the human rights lawyers are an exception.

                        Ervin

                        Thebartiski.blogspot.com
                        • usenetposts Re: So much talk, and so little action 18.03.06, 13:21
                          bartis_ervin napisał:

                          >
                          > "The legal profession are parasites, actually, in Britain, and just make the
                          > reat of us sick."
                          >
                          > As you once said, the human rights lawyers are an exception.
                          >

                          Yeah, I do believe some of them still do it for the idea. You are a good
                          example of that.

                          I also admit that corporate lawyers, who do purely corporate stuff, are usually
                          fairly decent people as well.
    • bartis_ervin Re: So much talk, and so little action 17.03.06, 16:39

      news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/4814598.stm
      Ervin

      Thebartiski.blogspot.com
      • ianek70 Re: So much talk, and so little action 17.03.06, 17:12
        Until the mid-80s, overall emigration from the UK was higher than immigration.

        news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3982217.stm
        In Scotland, there is still net emigration (or there was before EU
        enlargement), and of those who immigrated to Scotland, a quarter were actually
        born in Scotland.
        The population of Scotland is slowly falling, there are 5 million people there,
        while between 20 and 30 million people worldwide claim to be Scottish. So if we
        kicked out a few thousand foreigners, we would have to bring back lots of fat,
        loud Americans called Chuck and Elmer, half the population of New Zealand,
        millions of Australian, Canadian and South African citizens, as well as all the
        drunk people in London Underground stations who shout "arse" for no reason.
        And, of course, 80% of the nutters in Belfast.

        www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2005/01/25094357
        And for the Poles:
        www.angelfire.com/jazz/ntstar/scotpolesintro.htm
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