What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news?

31.03.06, 13:44

Most of the reports I've read are rather partial and not naming names, so
what I want to know, if someone has the patience to explain it to me, is the
following:

1. What medal is this that Jaruzelski is supposed to have handed back?
2. Who gave it to him, why and when?
3. Why is it an embarassment or a newsworthy issue?
4. What has it got to do with the Kaczynskis?
5. Who came out of this with honour and who with egg on face?

I'm hoping one of our Polish regulars can help with this.
    • ianek70 Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 31.03.06, 14:09
      usenetposts napisał:


      > 1. What medal is this that Jaruzelski is supposed to have handed back?

      The medal given to people who were deported to Siberia.

      > 2. Who gave it to him, why and when?

      Kazcyński L, President of the 4th Reichpublic.
      Why? Because Jaruzelski was deported to Siberia.

      > 3. Why is it an embarassment or a newsworthy issue?

      Kaczor claims he signed the piece of paper authorising the medal without
      actually reading it.

      > 4. What has it got to do with the Kaczynskis?

      They don't like Jaruzelski because of the things he did a few decades after
      coming back from his exile in Siberia.

      > 5. Who came out of this with honour and who with egg on face?

      Jaruzelski gave the medal back, possibly out of honour, possibly to make
      Kaczyński look like a small-minded incompetent arse.
      • usenetposts Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 31.03.06, 16:13
        You know what? I'd have sent that medal back as well even if I wasn't
        Jaruzelski. If he admits he didn't even read the names, then what honour is it?

        I have not personally been in Siberia, but once while living in Moscow I did
        drive my Jeep as far east as Orekhovo-Zhuyewo, and that was far east enough.
        • ianek70 Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 31.03.06, 16:29
          usenetposts napisał:

          > You know what? I'd have sent that medal back as well even if I wasn't
          > Jaruzelski. If he admits he didn't even read the names, then what honour is
          it?

          It's not an honour, it's just a formality. You got sent to Siberia, you get a
          medal.
          It's the same as if you get conscripted and sent to some war, it doesn't matter
          if you sit in the desert all day picking your nose and playing cards, or if
          you're one of the ones who actually does something important, like an engineer
          or a cook. You're still a veteran and you're entitled to a medal.
          • usenetposts Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 31.03.06, 16:33
            OK, well, cheers for explaining it all to me, because the way they wrote about
            it in the article I read I couldn't make head nor tail of it.
          • nasza_maggie Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 31.03.06, 21:53
            ianek70 napisał:

            > usenetposts napisał:
            >
            > > You know what? I'd have sent that medal back as well even if I wasn't
            > > Jaruzelski. If he admits he didn't even read the names, then what honour
            > is
            > it?
            >
            > It's not an honour, it's just a formality. You got sent to Siberia, you get a
            > medal.
            > It's the same as if you get conscripted and sent to some war, it doesn't
            matter
            >
            > if you sit in the desert all day picking your nose and playing cards, or if
            > you're one of the ones who actually does something important, like an
            engineer
            > or a cook. You're still a veteran and you're entitled to a medal.


            Ian,
            That is r u b b i s h. Being in Siberia had nothing to do with the Army.
            It was and equvalent to a concentration camp! Do some reading!
            • ianek70 I know. 01.04.06, 12:26
              nasza_maggie napisała:


              > Being in Siberia had nothing to do with the Army.
              > It was and equvalent to a concentration camp!

              I know.
              The point is everyone who got deported there is entitled to a medal, whatever
              he did later, in the same way as ever soldier is entitled to a medal for the
              wars he was in, even if he didn't fight, and every 100-year-old in the UK gets
              a telegram from the Queen, even if he doesn't deserve it.
    • jot-23 Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 31.03.06, 16:43
      usenetposts napisał:



      > 3. Why is it an embarassment or a newsworthy issue?

      hey...it's not really an embarassment (as for kaczynski not reading the list ,
      it's BS, the list is 1300 nams long, nobody reads that, you just rely on your
      subordinates to prepare it correctly and he just signs it, it's supposed to be
      a formality)... the issue was that even though jaruzelski is formally eligible
      to get the medal (as he was sent to siberia, and spent some time there),
      Kaczynski wanted to make a point of approving his application specifically at a
      later date, to separate him, from others (as to make a distinction between
      people who were sent to siberia for just being Poles, and after coming back
      often to face new repressions from new moscow installed regime from turncoats
      like Jaruzelski, who came from siberia to serve new government (an act
      considered really a treason by some Poles, and certainly nothing to be proud
      of )... the newsworthy part is that someone in pres's staff slipped
      Jaruzelski's name in, against Kaczynski's explicit order to not do so, so he
      was given the medal along everebody else on the list.
      • usenetposts Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 31.03.06, 17:34
        jot-23 napisał:

        > usenetposts napisał:
        >
        >
        >
        > > 3. Why is it an embarassment or a newsworthy issue?
        >
        > hey...it's not really an embarassment (as for kaczynski not reading the
        list ,
        > it's BS, the list is 1300 nams long, nobody reads that, you just rely on your
        > subordinates to prepare it correctly and he just signs it, it's supposed to
        be
        > a formality)... the issue was that even though jaruzelski is formally
        eligible
        > to get the medal (as he was sent to siberia, and spent some time there),
        > Kaczynski wanted to make a point of approving his application specifically at
        a
        >
        > later date, to separate him, from others (as to make a distinction between
        > people who were sent to siberia for just being Poles, and after coming back
        > often to face new repressions from new moscow installed regime from turncoats
        > like Jaruzelski, who came from siberia to serve new government (an act
        > considered really a treason by some Poles, and certainly nothing to be proud
        > of )... the newsworthy part is that someone in pres's staff slipped
        > Jaruzelski's name in, against Kaczynski's explicit order to not do so, so he
        > was given the medal along everebody else on the list.

        So how to understand the motivation behind Jaruzelski's returning the honour?
        • jot-23 Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 31.03.06, 17:41
          usenetposts napisał:

          > So how to understand the motivation behind Jaruzelski's returning the honour?

          i see it as just a natural reaction, if i were given something by mistake, and
          it was unintended i'd return it. as you said it's an "honour" ... to keep it
          would cheapen it greatly.
        • ianek70 Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 01.04.06, 12:40
          usenetposts napisał:

          > So how to understand the motivation behind Jaruzelski's returning the honour?

          He wrote a fairly dignified letter to Kaczor, saying he'd accepted it by
          mistake, thinking that the Pres had actually been man enough to forgive the
          past, but then discovered he wasn't, and had just signed a piece of paper
          without reading it.
          He mentioned the suffering of his family forced to cut down trees in Siberia,
          and those of them who never returned.
          He wrote that he doesn't suffer from a lack of medals, as he was a professional
          soldier for many decades, that he was proud of his many achievements during
          that time and that he had already many times apologised and expressed his
          regrets for the mistakes he had made and the harm caused by his decisions.

          I thought that was quite dignified, anyway, I'd just have said "Have your medal
          back, you fat, pompous little buttplug."

          Even Giertych admitted Jaruzelski had shown more class than Kaczyński, but then
          Romek doesn't like Leszek this week.
          • usenetposts Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 01.04.06, 13:23
            What is going on with this prosecution of Jaruzelski over martial law, anyway?
            I thought that he had negotiated himself some immunity during the round table
            talks? Why are Poles, having inherited the benefit of a relatively bloodless
            counterrevolution, going back on the words given on their behalf then?
            • nasza_maggie Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 02.04.06, 12:37
              Not Poles. Politicians.

              It was Mazowiecki who gave the Commies some immunity.
              And since the Kaczynscy don't like Mazowiecki (they caused most of the fights
              in SOlidarnosc) they want to cleanse the politics of old commies and bad
              history.
              only it should have happened 15 years ago....
              • usenetposts Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 02.04.06, 13:09
                Ceaucescu and his wife were lynched, Jaruzelski was given a nice house and a 24
                hour ambassadorial guard in the district of the American Ambassador's residence.

                Today Romania is not in the EU, and Poland is.
                • ejmarkow Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 02.04.06, 13:59
                  Nasza_Maggie wrote:

                  > Not Poles. Politicians.

                  > It was Mazowiecki who gave the Commies some immunity.
                  > And since the Kaczynscy don't like Mazowiecki (they caused most of the fights
                  > in SOlidarnosc) they want to cleanse the politics of old commies and bad
                  > history. only it should have happened 15 years ago....

                  If individuals all over this world who suffered from the German Nazi occupation
                  continue to hunt down war criminals to this present day, why shouldn't the
                  former Soviet satellite countries and its victims continue to investigate and
                  prosecute for crimes committed by communists now? It's never too late. Poland
                  and Poles (and all former Iron Curtain countries) have suffered a great deal
                  from the 40+ years of forced communism. Also, you must keep in mind, the last
                  15 years of 'democracy' in Poland wasn't pure in the sense that former
                  communists had then, and do now, occupy very important positions in this
                  country. People tend to forget this fact very quickly. They figure, "Oh, that
                  was a long time ago" or "That person's communist history should be forgotten
                  because he/she is pro-democratic now". Jaruzelski's family was deported to
                  Siberia, however, he embraced Communism, a philosophy that was against the very
                  democratic foundations of Poland.

                  For example, not long ago, Kaczynski declared that he wants to recall all
                  Polish diplomats with a communist history, excuse them from their jobs, and
                  replace them with qualified individuals that don't have such a history.
                  www.bhhrg.org/mediaDetails.asp?ArticleID=771
                  When this was announced, "...Marek Siwiec, adviser to the previous, ex-
                  communist president, Aleksander Kwasniewski, described the decision
                  as "disturbing, unprecedented" and "personal revenge." Is it really? Is this
                  decision by Kaczynski fair, or immoral, or good for Poland? That can partly be
                  answered depending on how you sympathize with individuals that have former ties
                  with communism. Prior to 1989, the communists that were in power 'cleansed' the
                  government of any anti-communists as well, and simply didn't employ them. What
                  about former communists that have changed their heart and outlook, and now
                  embrace democracy and freedom for all? Should they be forgiven, or prosecuted?
                  These are complicated issues with no easy resolution.

                  Eugene

                  • nasza_maggie Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 02.04.06, 22:22
                    Once again Eugene, I get the feeling you're trying to teach me and convince me
                    things I already know and am aware of about Poland.... but there you go.

                    What I mean by it being a bit too late, is that the ex/post-commies should have
                    been sorted out sooner, as their 'connections' and 'corruption' have now gone
                    so far and so deep it will be very difficult now to seperate the good from the
                    bad and find anyone who is enitrely innocent, I mena this on the local level
                    too.

                    Which doesn't mean the problem shouldn't be handled at all.
                    To be honest though, the twins have always been regarded as a little paranoid
                    and vengeful, which may make their jobs a little difficult if not impossible.
                    They are not regarded as neutral either. Look into FOZZ.
                    • ejmarkow Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 03.04.06, 08:10
                      nasza_maggie napisała:

                      > Once again Eugene, I get the feeling you're trying to teach me and convince
                      > me things I already know and am aware of about Poland.... but there you go.


                      Nasza_Maggie, I'm not trying to "teach" you anything. This is a forum. I'm only
                      expressing my opinion on why it's not too late to investigate or prosecute
                      communists, and I gave historical evidence to support my argument, that's all.
                      You claimed "only it should have happened 15 years ago", and I simply presented
                      you with my counterpoint. Thats all there is too it. We are all very much
                      knowledgeable on various topics on this forum, and have our opinions and views.
                      It's normal to support one's opinion with background information. I never
                      implicitly stated you aren't aware of the facts. So, please, don't get that
                      feeling. There are many other, better feelings to experience. smile

                      Regards,

                      Eugene
    • nasza_maggie Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 31.03.06, 21:51
      usenetposts napisał:

      >
      > Most of the reports I've read are rather partial and not naming names, so
      > what I want to know, if someone has the patience to explain it to me, is the
      > following:
      >
      > 1. What medal is this that Jaruzelski is supposed to have handed back?
      A medal for his 'suffering' in Siberia during the war when many Poles
      (including my family) were extradited to Kazahstan to work in the Gulags.
      Only a small percentage were lucky enough to return to Poland. Many died.
      (I reccomend 'Gulag' by Anne Applebaum if anyone is interested. I have other
      titles too).

      > 2. Who gave it to him, why and when?
      Kaczynski, yesterday, by recommendation of Siberian Veterans. He signed
      somehthing not reading too into it. Which is funny as he always took the mickey
      out of Wałęsa for doing that.

      > 3. Why is it an embarassment or a newsworthy issue?
      Well. It's history really. It looks a little hypocritical and contradictory.
      To me it is odd that someone who was persecuted by the Russians, went onto work
      for them and then there is the Martial Law issue.
      And it's odd Kaczynski who blabs on about being so honest/trustworthy/whiter
      than white and hating commies, gives him a medal wink



      > 4. What has it got to do with the Kaczynskis?
      The Kaczynscy always ranted and raved about justice in terms of
      communism/martial law/SB/milita being put in court for the stuff they did.
      (Read todyas news about Jaruzelski and IPN).
      Only, many Poles think this is 15 years too late.

      > 5. Who came out of this with honour and who with egg on face?
      Neither. It sounds like an April Fools joke...or Kaczynski has a mole in his
      officewink
      >
      > I'm hoping one of our Polish regulars can help with this.

      I triedsmile
      >
      • usenetposts Re: What's all this about Jaruzelski in the news? 31.03.06, 22:57
        Thanks, Maggie.

        You may note that Jaruzelski's wikipedia entry was already adjusted for this
        story.
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