A grasp of history

21.04.06, 10:19
George Bush: "crusade" remark

Ben and Jerry's latest ice cream - Black and Tan !!! (Why not Waffen SS
waffles as well, while we're at it?)

I hear Britain has just decided to start the mandatory teaching of post-
mediaeval British history on (GCSE)examination courses.

Poland's not too bad, education-wise (although going downhill fast).
    • sobieski010 Re: A grasp of history 21.04.06, 11:09
      I studied myself Mediaeval history at university (and I am working in logistics
      - funny how life sometimes goes) and I think that although the Poles have a
      pretty good knowledge of their history, it is often very coloured.
      Quite often far too romantic and with a blind eye for some less pleasant facts.
      Even Norman Davies, the authority on Polish history, is to my view not as
      objective as he should be...
      And about the Americans and history... what can I say?
      • varsovian Re: A grasp of history 21.04.06, 13:43
        If not for the TV, British people would know nothing about their own history.
        The edyoukashional prufeshionals decided against teaching properly years ago.
      • usenetposts Re: A grasp of history 22.04.06, 20:11
        sobieski010 napisał:

        > I studied myself Mediaeval history at university (and I am working in
        logistics
        > - funny how life sometimes goes) and I think that although the Poles have a
        > pretty good knowledge of their history, it is often very coloured.
        > Quite often far too romantic and with a blind eye for some less pleasant
        facts.
        > Even Norman Davies, the authority on Polish history, is to my view not as
        > objective as he should be...

        You can say that again. In all his books he plays down the Protestant
        Reformation in European history. He is ready to devote space to anything but
        that.

        At one time Poland has a large proportion of Protestants and many Polish heroes
        of history were practising protestants, but Davies has little to say about it,
        which suits the statusquo here, who want the message to come across that being
        a patriotic Pole means being a catholic, whereas historically we can say this;
        the more Protestants you had, the more success you had.

        And the Radziwills as well as Pilsudski are prime examples.
        • minimus Re: A grasp of history 22.04.06, 21:12
          > And the Radziwills as well as Pilsudski are prime examples.

          You mean they were Protestant? Didn't know. Esp Pilsudski is a surprise to me.
          Any others?
          • usenetposts Re: A grasp of history 23.04.06, 13:12
            There's Rej, and I was told a whole bunch of others, and I have asked that
            person to prepare a synopsis for me as I am hoping to write a nice essay or
            article about it.
        • ianek70 Re: A grasp of history 23.04.06, 16:45
          Was Piłsudski actually a practising Protestant?
          I heard he only converted because he wanted to marry a Prod, and either they
          tossed a coin, or she was bigger than him or whatever, and he lost.
          A bit like that king in the 10th century who became a Christian to stop his
          future wife nagging him (although they also had the traditional Slavic pagan
          wedding ceremony, he wasn't that much of a pantoflarz).
          • usenetposts Re: A grasp of history 24.04.06, 12:26
            Pilsudski was a Protestant, and it's not for me to say whether he was a good
            one or not.

            The point at issue for me is that you don't have to be a Catholic to be a true
            Pole or a patriotic Pole. Even in these days of overwhelming Catholicism in
            Poland, Jerzy Buzek, a Protestant, made a reasonable job of being Prime
            Minister for a while.
    • kylie1 Re: A grasp of history 21.04.06, 23:17
      >Why not Waffen SS waffles as well, while we're at it?

      I think it's been already done, Dave! See, we have Eggo waffles...these are for
      people with overbalanced power egos.


    • sobieski010 Re: A grasp of history 23.04.06, 17:50
      What also disturbs me with Norman Davies, is that he plays down the element of
      antisemitism in prewar and wartime Poland. I do not agree with the constant
      anti-Poland bashing of American-Jewish committees, but this is obviously a dark
      spot in Poland's recent history.
      Jan T. Gross has some intelligent things to tell about this subject.
      Also the role of the viciously antisemitic NSZ is almost ignored by Davies, who
      otherwise is a very good historian

      • margaretka2002 Re: A grasp of history 24.04.06, 00:49
        As opposed to Jan Gross who is not a historian...
      • usenetposts Re: A grasp of history 24.04.06, 12:31
        sobieski010 napisał:

        > What also disturbs me with Norman Davies, is that he plays down the element of
        > antisemitism in prewar and wartime Poland. I do not agree with the constant
        > anti-Poland bashing of American-Jewish committees, but this is obviously a
        dark
        > spot in Poland's recent history.
        > Jan T. Gross has some intelligent things to tell about this subject.
        > Also the role of the viciously antisemitic NSZ is almost ignored by Davies,
        who
        > otherwise is a very good historian
        >

        Norman Davies is treated as a bit of a guru, but at the end of the day it's
        Roger Moorhouse that does most of the work anyway. The Prof just signs off on
        it, in time-honoured academic-hierarchical style. At least in the case of
        Microcosmos, the book about Wroclaw, he finally got a joint authorship.

        When Moorhouse finally breaks free of his famous and illustrious mentor, I
        personally believe the quality of the work will go up, not down. I think that
        the Moorhouse-Davies relationship will be a case of "uczen przewyzszyl
        mistrza".
        • sobieski010 Re: A grasp of history 24.04.06, 13:13
          Speaking as a historian, I think Norman Davies is so popular in Poland because
          he writes want the Poles want to hear.
          By the way I found Microscosm one of the books, surely one of the most objective.
          In contrast I found Rising '44 on may points very irritating, for example the
          repeating of "England's First Ally" every two lines was completely over the top.
          I am looking forward to read Roger Moorhouse's book on the attacks against
          Hitler. I heard it is very good.
          • ejmarkow Re: A grasp of history 24.04.06, 16:21
            sobieski010 napisał:

            > Speaking as a historian, I think Norman Davies is so popular in Poland because
            > he writes want the Poles want to hear.

            Norman Davies is popular in Poland and elsewhere due to his impartial and
            rational treatment of history. As usual, there are critics and advocates of his
            writings. I found "God's Playground" to be in-depth and informative. History is
            a hobby for me.

            Jan Gross is not considered by many to be a historian, although he is a
            professor in Princeton's History Department. The "New Yorker" magazine referred
            to him as a 'Polish Political Scientist' in a March, 2001 interview. Until
            today, some consider his work to contain errors and exaggerations, while others
            treat it as an absolute authority. He also has his opponents and supporters.

            Eugene
            • sobieski010 Re: A grasp of history 24.04.06, 21:16
              Personally I feel related to Usenetposts who clearly marks the flaws in ND's
              books. Norman Davies completely ignores some black spots in Polish history and
              keeps on moaning about other ones.
              His stance in the Jedwabne case for example.
              I think Jan Gross writes some pretty compelling things about Polish history in
              the 20th century - including quite a few facts Poles do not want to remember -

              • minimus Re: A grasp of history 24.04.06, 23:15
                You make a lot of genaralisations. In fact I don't think I heard anything
                concrete from you. Except the dentist question perhaps.

                > I think Jan Gross writes some pretty compelling things about Polish history
                in
                > the 20th century - including quite a few facts Poles do not want to remember -

                what things? which Poles? which facts?
              • ejmarkow Re: A grasp of history 24.04.06, 23:28
                Norman Davies writings delve into sensitive areas of history that induce many
                critics to consider him 'right wing' when in fact, he presents the facts
                truthfully. I thoroughly share the view of Anne Applebaum, who is a
                knowledgeable and respected columnist and member of the editorial board of the
                Washington Post. When she lived in London, she wrote a weekly column on British
                politics and foreign affairs, which appeared at different times in the Daily
                Telegraph, the Sunday Telegraph, and the Evening Standard newspapers. I highly
                recommend that you read one of her opinions on Davies. Not only does Davies
                admit 'blackspots' and shortcomings in all European history, he also includes
                unpleasant facts that some critics just can't swallow. Please read the column
                by Applebaum entitled "Against the old clichés" at:

                www.newcriterion.com/archive/15/may97/apple.htm
                Most Poles do remember both the negative and positive aspects of history and
                are quite open about it. When you say "Poles", are you referring to 'all' Poles
                (the entire nation), or 'some' Poles? It's absurd to group an entire nation
                into one mind set. Most of the nation (Poland) held an open debate for a long
                time when Gross wrote about Jedwabne. Some of the press labelled it "Soul
                Searching", while in reality it was very opinionated and intense discussion on
                the subject. So on the contrary, most Poles do remember the facts, even if many
                did not agree with all the details. There are still too many grey areas which
                are still open for question on that topic.

                Eugene



                sobieski010 napisał:

                > Personally I feel related to Usenetposts who clearly marks the flaws in ND's
                > books. Norman Davies completely ignores some black spots in Polish history
                and
                > keeps on moaning about other ones.
                > His stance in the Jedwabne case for example.
                > I think Jan Gross writes some pretty compelling things about Polish history
                in
                > the 20th century - including quite a few facts Poles do not want to remember -
                >
          • usenetposts Re: A grasp of history 26.04.06, 22:32
            sobieski010 napisał:

            > Speaking as a historian, I think Norman Davies is so popular in Poland because
            > he writes want the Poles want to hear.
            > By the way I found Microscosm one of the books, surely one of the most
            objectiv
            > e.
            > In contrast I found Rising '44 on may points very irritating, for example the
            > repeating of "England's First Ally" every two lines was completely over the
            top
            > .
            > I am looking forward to read Roger Moorhouse's book on the attacks against
            > Hitler. I heard it is very good.

            Moorhouse is set to be the greatest popular historian. I'm rooting for that to
            happen.
            • varsovian Re: A grasp of history 01.05.06, 02:17
              ... don't forget everyone was extremely racist until extremely recently (is
              that extremely bad style?)... I've obviously been doing too much proofreading
              • ejmarkow Wikipedia Error-Norman Davies of "Polish" Descent? 01.05.06, 07:41
                I am almost positive that Norman Davies was of Welsh background, and not one
                bit Polish. Wikipedia claims Davies to be of Polish descent. I don't think this
                is correct. Can somebody confirm this?

                Wikipedia writes as of this moment:
                "Norman Davies (born June 8, 1939 in Bolton, Lancashire, England) is a British
                historian of Polish descent, noted for his publications on the history of
                Poland, Europe and the British Isles."

                • ejmarkow Wikipedia Error-Norman Davies of "Polish" Descent? 01.05.06, 07:46
                  The Polish version of Wikipedia seems correct:

                  "Norman Davies - (ur. 8 czerwca 1939 w Bolton w północnej Anglii), z
                  pochodzenia Walijczyk. Historyk Europy."

                  Source: pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Davies

                  Now look at the English version:

                  "Norman Davies (born June 8, 1939 in Bolton, Lancashire, England) is a British
                  historian of Polish descent, noted for his publications on the history of
                  Poland, Europe and the British Isles."

                  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Davies

                  • usenetposts Re: Wikipedia Error-Norman Davies of "Polish" Des 01.05.06, 11:57
                    Well, that's easily dealt with. I just took "of Polish descent" out.
                    • ejmarkow Re: Wikipedia Error-Norman Davies of "Polish" Des 01.05.06, 12:14
                      usenetposts napisał:

                      > Well, that's easily dealt with. I just took "of Polish descent" out.

                      I realize it's easily changeable by anyone. The accuracy of the statement was
                      only being questioned. I just added "of Welsh descent".
                      • usenetposts Re: Wikipedia Error-Norman Davies of "Polish" Des 01.05.06, 19:57
                        I see that a Swedish article appeared on Norman Davies in Swedish wikipedia and
                        the link to it was added to the article, even after your addition, today. I had
                        a look at it, and I see that they call him SIR Norman Davies. I added the
                        comment "since when?" to the discussion page behind the Swedish article.
Pełna wersja