Czego Franklin nie powiedział - Documenting Fraud

IP: *.budimex.com.pl 26.10.01, 14:56
The fraudulent nature of the Prophecy
    • Gość: nik Re: Czego Franklin nie powiedział - Documenting Fraud IP: 209.187.203.* 26.10.01, 15:45
      Ciekawe.
      Biorąc pod uwagę to, co powiedział Washington, słowa Franklina wydają się
      wiarygodne.

      Metodę ADL jest zaprzeczanie wszystkiemu, wiec pozwolę sobie wątpić w te
      rewelacje.
      Nie ulega chyba watpliwosci, że m.in.Washington i Franklin chcieli w
      konstytucji wyłączyc Zydow z USA.
      • Gość: Yidele Czego Franklin nie powiedział - Documenting Fraud IP: *.budimex.com.pl 27.10.01, 00:03
        nie ulega przecierz wątpliwości iż charakterystyczną cechą demagogów jest
        powoływanie się na nie istniejące wypowiedzi sławnych ludzi - Nie ma
        wątpliwości iz B.Franklin nie pozostawił żadnej udokumentowanej wypowiedzi anty-
        zydowskiej, dokumenty do których się odnosisz nie istnieją. _nie odniosłeś się
        do argumentów - powtarzasz jako prawdę coś, co jest _udowodnionym_ fałszerstwem
        i w dodatku hitlerowską propagandą - nie ulega przecierz watpliwości to, że z
        braku dowodów sypiesz tandetną retoryką
    • Gość: mason To coś jak debilne "Protokoły Mędrców Syjonu"!... IP: 193.0.117.* 26.10.01, 15:48
      Czyli marna, cuchnąca fałszywka sprokurowana przez carską ochranę (z gotowca,
      którym był jakiś francuski paszkwil przeciwko Napoleonowi III), a którą do dziś
      można kupić w Polsce na przykościelnych kramikach, i o której żywo się
      dyskutuje w pobożnym Radyju. Nie wiedziałem, że antysemiccy bezmógowcy podobnie
      fałszowali Franklina!
    • Gość: nik Re: Czego Franklin nie powiedział - Documenting Fraud IP: 209.187.203.* 26.10.01, 15:50
      Co jeszcze czyni ten cytat wiarygodnym?

      STYVESANT, PETER. 17th century Dutch governor in America.
      "The Jews who have arrived would nearly all like to remain here, but learning
      that they (with their customary usury and deceitful trading with the
      Christians) were very repugnant to the inferior magistrates, as also to the
      people having the most affection for you; the Deaconry also fearing that owing
      to their present indigence they might become a charge in the coming winter, we
      have, for the benefit of this weak newly developing place and land in general,
      deemed it useful to require them in a friendly way to depart; praying also most
      seriously in this connection, for ourselves also for the general community of
      your worships, that the deceitful race - such hateful enemies and blasphemers
      of the name of Christ - not be allowed further to infect and trouble this new
      colony. (Letter to the Amsterdam Chamber of the Dutch West India Company, from
      New Amsterdam, September 22, 1654.)
      The Jews whom he attempted to oust merely applied to their fellow Jews in
      Holland, and the order came back from the Company countermanding the expulsion.
      (For a similar situation during the Civil War, see ULYSSES GRANT). Among the
      reasons given by "their worships" for over-ruling their governor, one stands
      out rather glaringly, in view of the usual Jewish contention that their people
      were 'poor and persecuted:' " ...and also because of the large amount of
      capital which they have invested in shares of this Company." (Harry Golden and
      Martin Rywell, THE JEWS IN AMERICAN HISTORY)
      THE GEORGIA COLONY IN AMERICA. On January 5, 1734, the trustees ordered that
      three Jews who had been sending correligionists into the colony without
      authorization "use their endeavors that the said Jews may be removed from the
      Colony of Georgia, as the best and only satisfaction that they can give to the
      Trustees for such an indignity offered to Gentlemen acting under His Majesty's
      Charter." (C. Jones, HISTORY OF SAVANNAH)

      JEFFERSON, THOMAS. 18th century American statesman.
      "Dispersed as the Jews are, they still form one nation, foreign to the land
      they live in. " (D. Boorstin, THE AMERICANS)
      "Those who labor in the earth are the Chosen People of God, if ever he had a
      chosen people. " (NOTES ON VIRGINIA)

      GRANT, USYSSES S. 19th century American general, politician. While in command
      of the 13th Army Corps, headquartered at Oxford, Mississippi, he became so
      infuriated at Jewish camp-followers attempting to penetrate the conquered
      territory that he finally attempted to expel the Jews:

      "I have long since believed that in spite of all the vigilance that can be
      infused into post commanders, the special regulations of the Treasury
      Department have been violated, and that mostly by Jews and other unprincipled
      traders. So well satisfied have I been of this that I instructed the commanding
      officers at Columbus to refuse all permits to Jews to come South, and I have
      frequently had them expelled from the department, but they come in with their
      carpet-sacks in spite of all that can be done to prevent it. The Jews seem to
      be a privileged class that can travel anywhere. They will land at any woodyard
      on the river and make their way through the country. If not permitted to buy
      cotton themselves, they will act as agents for someone else, who will be at
      military post with a Treasury permit to receive cotton and pay for it in
      Treasury notes which the Jew will buy up at an agreed rate, paying gold.
      (Letters to C. P. Wolcott, assistant secretary of war, Washington, December 17,
      1862)
      1. The Jews, as a class, violating every regulation of trade established by the
      Treasury Department, and also Department orders, are hereby expelled from the
      Department.
      2. Within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order by Post Commanders,
      they will see that all of this class of people are furnished with passes and
      required to leave, and anyone returning after such notification, will be
      arrested and held in confinement until an opportunity occurs of sending them
      out as prisoners, unless furnished with permits from these headquarters.
      3. No permits will be given these people to visit headquarters for the purpose
      of making personal application for trade permits.
      By order of Major Gen. Grant Jno. A. Rawlings, Assistant Adjutant General
      (General Order Number 11, December 17, 1862)

      The expulsion order was immediately countermanded by the general-in-chief, H.
      W. Halleck, in Washington. Apparently the expelled Jews had immediately
      contacted their kinsmen there and had pressure brought to bear.
    • Gość: Yidele Co naprawdę powiedzieli Franklin i inni - rebuttal IP: *.budimex.com.pl 27.10.01, 00:21
      What else makes these

      An example of these claims appears on the following hate site(s):

      http://abbc.com/islam/english/toread/clilist.htm (Radio Islam)


      CLAIM
      George Washington
      ( in Maxims of George Washington by A. A. Appleton & Co.)

      "They (the Jews) work more effectively against us, than the enemy's armies.
      They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we
      are engaged in... It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not
      hunted them down as pest to society and the greatest enemies we have to the
      happiness of America."
      George Washington

      RESPONSE (1)
      Well, I got the *Maxims of George Washington* (actually published by D.
      Appleton & Co., 1894) through interlibrary loan yesterday, thanks to U.C. San
      Diego being willing to allow a 104 yr. old volume to travel. It makes
      interesting reading. I found that the above quote is almost entirely accurate--
      EXCEPT that the original has no mention of the Jews. Why am I not surprised?

      When Washington made this statement he was, according to *Maxims* speaking of
      speculators in the currency, not Jews. I did a teensy bit of research &
      discovered that one of the great problems of our Revolution was that
      speculators cornered supplies of shoes, clothes & vital supplies & sold them at
      huge profits, while privateers would slip out of port & trade in other nations
      making individuals rich to the detriment of the national treasury. In a letter
      to John Augustine Washington (10/26/1778) Washington wrote:

      "I would to God that one of the most atrocious of each State was hung in
      gibbets upon a gallows five times as high as the one prepared for Haman."
      (Haman~In the Old Testament, a Persian minister who was hanged for plotting the
      destruction of the Jews.)

      As to what Washington really felt about the Jews, I have found no negative
      statements--although I _did_ find addresses to Jewish congregations
      congratulating them on the freedom from persecution that America offered them!
      As a matter of fact, Jews played a great part in our Revolution. They took part
      in our rebellion from the very
      first: 9 Jews signed the Non-Importation Resolutions of 1765 (on display in
      Philadelphia at Carpenter's Hall). One, Haym Salomon, was a rich man who
      unstintingly gave money to help our leaders when in need (including Jefferson &
      Madison and other members of congress) & refused to be paid back & in addition
      gave many thousands of dollars to the Treaury & the army. Many other Jews gave
      money to our early government, including one Manuel Mordecai Noah who served as
      an officer on Washington's staff & who, upon enlistment, gave his entire
      fortune of 20,000 pounds to the cause. Many fought as soldiers.

      Since Washington spoke out on his feelings about Indians and slaves, especially
      in his diaries & letters, I can't help but think that if he had any low
      opinions of Jews they would have surfaced long ago.

      The original poster tried to use the words of Washington to spread his foul
      lies & prejudices. Hey Buryea, try _this_ quote from *The Maxims of Washington*:

      "I am sure, the mass of citizens in these United States mean well; & I firmly
      believe they will always act well, whenever they can obtain _a right
      understanding of matters_. But, in some parts of the Union, where the
      sentiments of their delegates & leaders are adverse to government, and great
      pains are taken to inculcate a belief, that their rights are assailed & their
      liberties endangered, it is not easy to accomplish this; SPECIALLY, as is the
      case invariably, when INVENTORS & ABETTORS OF PERNICIOUS MEASURES use
      infinitely more industry, in DISSEMINATING POISON, than the well-disposed part
      of the community, in furnishing the antidote. TO THIS ALL OUR DISCONTENTS MAY
      BE TRACED; and from it all our embarrassments proceed." (p.76,
      Maxims).

      Susan Umpleby (sumpleby@earthlink.net) in Usenet message
      (01bd69c6$3fbc7b80$b4ebd9cf@default) http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?
      AN=344922853


      RESPONSE (2)
      In his famous letter to "The Hebrew Congregation in Newport," written in 1790,
      President George Washington pledged that the new nation would "give to bigotry
      no sanction, to persecution no assistance" and thereby set the standard for
      religious freedom and civil liberties in America.

      From http://www.nps.gov/tosy/

      In the light of these comments, George Washington could hardly be accused of
      being an anti-Semite. The full text of the letter follows:

      To the Hebrew Congregation in Newport Rhode Island

      Gentlemen:

      While I receive with much satisfaction, your Address replete with expressions
      of affection and esteem, I rejoice in the opportunity of answering you, that I
      shall always retain a grateful remembrance of the cordial welcome I experienced
      in my visit to New port, from all classes of Citizens.

      The reflection on the days of difficulty and danger which are past, is rendered
      the more sweet, from a consciousness that they are succeeded by days of
      uncommon prosperity and security. If we have wisdom to make the best use of the
      advantages with which we are now favored, we cannot fail, under the just
      administration of a good Government, to become a great and a happy people.

      The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves
      for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a
      policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and
      immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as
      if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the
      exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the
      United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no
      assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should
      demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their
      effectual support.

      It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I
      am pleased with your favorable opinion of my administration, and fervent wishes
      for my felicity. May the Children of the Stock of Abraham, who dwell in this
      land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants, while
      every one shall sit in safety under his own wine and fig tree, and there shall
      be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not
      darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here,
      and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.

      George Washington Letter to the Touro Synagogue, 1790

      David S. Maddison (maddison@connexus.net.au)


      CLAIM
      Benjamin Franklin

      This prophecy, by Benjamin Franklin, was made in a "CHIT CHAT AROUND THE TABLE
      DURING INTERMISSION," at the Philadelphia Constitutional Convention of 1787.
      This statement was recorded in the dairy of Charles Cotesworth Pinckney, a
      delegate from South Carolina.

      "I fully agree with General Washington, that we must protect this young nation
      from an insidious influence and impenetration. The menace, gentlemen, is the
      Jews.

      In whatever country Jews have settled in any great number, they have lowered
      its moral tone; depreciated its commercial integrity; have segregated
      themselves and have not been assimilated; have sneered at and tried to
      undermine the Christian religion upon which that nation is founded, by
      objecting to its restrictions; have built up a state within the state; and when
      opposed have tried to strangle that country to death financially, as in the
      case of Spain and Portugal.

      For over 1,700 years, the Jews have been bewailing their sad fate in that they
      have been exiled from their homeland, as they call Palestine. But gentlemen,
      did the world give it to them in fee simple, they would at once find some
      reason for not returning. Why? Because they are vampi
    • Gość: Yidele Co naprawdę powiedzieli Franklin i inni - pt 2 IP: *.budimex.com.pl 27.10.01, 00:30
      Why? Because they are vampires, and vampires do not live on vampires. They
      cannot live only among themselves. They must subsist on Christians and other
      people not of their race.

      If you do not exclude them from these United States, in their Constitution, in
      less than 200 years they will have swarmed here in such great numbers that they
      will dominate and devour the land and change our form of government, for which
      we Americans have shed our blood, given our lives our substance and jeopardized
      our liberty.

      If you do not exclude them, in less than 200 years our descendants will be
      working in the fields to furnish them substance, while they will be in the
      counting houses rubbing their hands. I warn you, gentlemen, if you do not
      exclude Jews for all time, your children will curse you in your graves.

      Jews, gentlemen, are Asiatics, let them be born where they will nor how many
      generations they are away from Asia, they will never be otherwise. Their ideas
      do not conform to an American's, and will not even thou they live among us ten
      generations. A leopard cannot change its spots. Jews are Asiatics, are a menace
      to this country if permitted entrance, and should be excluded by this
      Constitutional Convention. "
      Benjamin Franklin


      RESPONSE (1)
      The quote alleged to be by Franklin is a forgery. It is discussed in "They
      Never Said It" by Boller and George, p.27

      [Reference: "They Never Said It", Paul F. Boller Jr. and John George, New York,
      Oxford University Press, 1989, ISBN 0-19-605541-1 and ISBN 0-19-506469-0 -DSM]


      "The Franklin quote apparently first turned up on February 3, 1934 in William
      Dudley Pelley's pro-Nazi sheet, _Liberation_, published in Asheville, North
      Carolina. According to Pelley, it was taken from notes made by Charles
      Cotesworth Pinckney, delegate to the Constitutional Convention from South
      Carolina... But there is no Pinckney diary, and historian Charles Beard, after
      a thorough investigation... concluded: "This alleged `Prophecy' ascribed to
      Franklin is a crude forgery.. . There is in our historical records no evidence
      whatever of any basis for the falsehood."

      "On one occasion, when the Hebrew Society of Philadelphia sought to raise money
      for a synagogue, Franklin signed the petition appealing to "citizens of every
      denomination" for contributions. Nevertheless, during the 1930s and 1940s, the
      Franklin forgery was cited time and again in the Nazi press in Germany,
      broadcast over the Nazi radio... It was popular, too, in neo-Nazi circles in
      the United States."


      RESPONSE (2)
      http://www.netizen.org/arc-hive/par_0038.txt
      Another good source for a discussion of the Ben Franklin hoax is Morris
      Kominsky's excellent (but hard to find) book, "Hoaxers: Plain Liars, Fancy
      Liars and Damned Liars" Branden Press 1970. [..]

      Mr. Kominsky notes the hoax reported in a 1966 issue of THUNDERBOLT, a
      publication of the National States Rights Party. He notes the rumor made the
      rounds in 1934 by William Dudley Pelley, professional anti-Semite, leader of
      the Silver SHirts (SS--get it?). He attributed it to the diary of Charles
      Pinckney of South Carolina who was a delegate to the Constitutional Convention
      of 1787. When challenged, Pelley claimed to have taken it from a copy of the
      diary which was the property of an unidentified descendent of Pinckney.
      Historian Charles Beard made a search for this 'diary' and Henry Butler Allen
      of the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia issued a statement in 1938 that the
      diary did not exist and based on an analysis of the language in the anti-
      semitic speech attributed to Franklin, the language used was not Colonial
      English.

      -Danny Keren.

      CLAIM
      Peter Styvesant
      (17th century Dutch governor in America.)

      "The Jews who have arrived would nearly all like to remain here, but learning
      that they (with their customary usury and deceitful trading with the
      Christians) were very repugnant to the inferior magistrates, as also to the
      people having the most affection for you; the Deaconry also fearing that owing
      to their present indigence they might become a charge in the coming winter, we
      have, for the benefit of this weak newly developing place and land in general,
      deemed it useful to require them in a friendly way to depart; praying also most
      seriously in this connection, for ourselves also for the general community of
      your worships, that the deceitful race - such hateful enemies and blasphemers
      of the name of Christ - not be allowed further to infect and trouble this new
      colony. "
      Peter Styvesant
      (Letter to the Amsterdam Chamber of the Dutch West India Company, from New
      Amsterdam, September 22, 1654.)

      RESPONSE (1)
      What is so surprising about this quote, if true? The religious bigotry of the
      Old World, was exactly the sort of thing that the new nation of America – the
      New World was founded (after Peter Stuyvesant) to rid itself of.

      Concerning the search for freedom by Jews in the New World it is well described
      by the following poem:


      From http://www.dorledor.org/epic/page55.html
      AMERICA IS COLONIZED

      JEWS AMONG SETTLERS
      17th and 18th Centuries C.E.

      To sail Columbus had to understand
      The charts by Abraham Zacuto's hand;
      Jews were on board when Columbus saw land.

      In New Amsterdam the first Jews to arrive,
      Had to fight Stuyvesant to stay alive;
      Professing Jews, they struggled to survive.

      Slowly the Jewish community grew
      In seventeen thirty a charter came through
      For the first synagogue-long overdue.

      Jews among fighters who broke the English tie;
      Those who could, gave wealth; some were to die.
      Independence from Britain they helped pry.

      To assist the States in their freedom war,
      Haym Salomon, the patriot, bore
      The financial burden of many a corps.

      The Old Testament-a force to impel
      The colonists their tyrants to expel.
      Words from Scripture on the Liberty Bell.

      The framers of the U.S. Constitution
      In the Hebrew Bible found the solution
      How to build a liberal institution.

      --
      David S. Maddison (maddison@connexus.net.au)


      RESPONSE (2)
      Concerning Peter Stuyvesant, a Dutchman, he was a person that reflected the
      bigoted attitudes of his time. He was a rabid anti-Semite that caused great
      suffering to the Jews. In 1654 the Portugese recaptured Holland's Brazilian
      colony and a group of 23 Jewish refugees sought asylum in New Amsterdam (to
      become New York) where Stuyvesant was the governor. Stuyvesant wanted them
      expelled because he thought of them as Christ-killers and thieves but was
      stopped doing so by the Dutch West Indies Company because it had a number of
      Jewish shareholders and that company was vital to the health of the colony.

      However, even though the Jews gained a temporary reprieve, the company though
      Stuyvesant's original wish desirable in any case and it was required that the
      refugees "not become a burden to the company or to the community".

      Stuyvesant adopted a strategy of making life for the Jews so miserable that
      they might leave of their own accord anyway. He issued edicts prohibiting Jews
      from owning property, employing Christians, travelling without property,
      praying in public or joining Citizen's guards.

      The arrogance of Stuyvesant is expressed in what he said to some Long Island
      citizens that wanted a part in government: "We derive our authority from God
      and the West India Company, not from the pleasure of a few ignorant subjects".
      Presumably this exactly the type of leader the ignorant anti-Semites that post
      this material would want.

      David S. Maddison (maddison@connexus.net.au)


      CLAIM
      Thomas Jefferson

      (18th century American statesman)
      "Dispersed as the Jews are, they still form one nation, foreign to the land
      they live in. "
      Thomas Jefferson (D. Boorstin, THE AMERICANS)

      RESPONSE (1)
      Firstly, anti-Semites should learn to quote their "sources" correctly and also
    • Gość: Yidele Co naprawdę powiedzieli Franklin i inni - pt 3 IP: *.budimex.com.pl 27.10.01, 00:34
      RESPONSE (1)
      Firstly, anti-Semites should learn to quote their "sources" correctly and also
      include the relevant page number. The correct citation for the book is "The
      Americans – The Colonial Experience", Daniel. J. Boorstin, Vintage Books, 1958.
      The "quote" above has been changed from the original, which appears on page 64
      of the paperback edition. Speaking about the American Quakers and the problems
      they experienced because, for example, they would not defend themselves against
      Indian attacks, he speaks of them as "a religious sect…acting with one mind,
      and that directed from the mother Society in England. Dispersed, as the Jews,
      they still form, as those do, one nation, foreign to the land they live in."

      I don't see this as anti-Semitic or even anti-Quaker. Jefferson is simply
      commenting on the character of both the Quakers and the Jews of not totally
      assimilating with the surrounding society and maintaining their traditions.
      Whatever is wrong with this in a free society? Wasn't the freedom to practice
      one's religious beliefs one of the founding principles of the United States?

      The imputation behind the original misquote is also at variance with
      Jefferson's support for both freedom of religious belief and practice and also
      his belief in freedom from religion. He was determined that the religious
      bigotry and intolerance in the Europe of his time would not be exported to
      America. In 1777 he drafted "An Act for Establishing Religious Freedom" and in
      1779 when he became Governor of Virginia he introduced the Act into the
      legislature. An opposing bill, proposing to make Christianity the official
      religion of America was then introduced by Patrick Henry and had primarily
      Anglican support.

      Jews along with Baptists, freethinkers and some Anglicans supported the
      Jefferson bill. James Madison made a speech to the Virginia General Assembly
      which strongly swayed support to the Jefferson bill and it became law on 16 Jan
      1786. It read, in part:

      "II. Be it enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to
      frequent or support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor
      shall be enforced, restrained, molested or burdened in his body or goods, nor
      shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that
      all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in
      matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or
      affect their civil capacities.'

      David S. Maddison (maddison@connexus.net.au)


      RESPONSE (2)
      Someone recently asked about Jefferson and the Jews. Of all the Founders,
      Jefferson is the only major figure in whose writings something anti-Semitic
      cannot be found. Jefferson disagreed with the inward directedness of the Jewish
      people in the Old Testament, and he believed that Jesus (a Jew) improved upon
      Judaic thought by taking ethical concerns into the human conscience. To Dr.
      Jacob De La Motta, Savannah, Georgia, Jefferson wrote that he rejoiced "in the
      restoration of the Jews, particularly to their social rights." Jefferson hoped
      that the Jews "will be seen taking their seats on the benches of science as
      preparatory to their doing the same at the board of government."

      To Mordecai M. Noah Jefferson wrote, in 1818, "You sect by its sufferings has
      furnished a remarkable proof of the universal spirit of religious intolerance
      inherent in every sect, disclaimed by all when feeble, and practiced by all
      when in power."
      From www.th-jefferson.org/html/archives_of_follow-up_notes.html

      CLAIM
      "Those who labor in the earth are the Chosen People of God, if ever he had a
      chosen people. "
      Thomas Jefferson
      (NOTES ON VIRGINIA)

      RESPONSE
      First of all, the reference is incorrect. The book is called "Notes on the
      State of Virginia", written in 1785. Also, the quote is incomplete. The full
      sentence reads "Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of G-d, if
      ever he had a chosen people, whose breasts he has made his peculiar deposit for
      substantial and genuine virtue.". This quote appears in "Query XIX.
      Manufactures" and is on page 164 of the edition edited by William Peden,
      published for the Institute of Early American History and Culture,
      Williamsburg, Virginia, University of North Carolina Press, 1955, © 1954.

      It is difficult to see how this can be construed to have anti-Semitic intent.
      Jefferson is simply saying that people "who labor in the earth" should be
      highly revered. Obviously, without such people, no agriculture would exist.

      Jefferson's view is entirely consistent with his belief in a strong
      agricultural sector of the economy. There is no mention of "Jews"
      or "Israelites" in the index of the book.

      David S. Maddison (maddison@connexus.net.au)
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