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Abu Ghraib - america unmasked

11.05.04, 07:07
Last January, an online magazine, Corrections.com, run an interview with Mr
Lane Mc Cotter who proudly announced that the Iraqi prison was "the only
place we agreed as a team was truly closest to an American prison".

Who is Mc Cotter? He was head of Department of Corrections in Utah when, in
1997, a prisoner named Michael Valent, who was diagnosed with schizofrenia,
died after being tied to a 'restraining chair' for sixteen hours. The
American Civil Liberties Union executive director admitted that the immediate
thought that came to her mind upon seeing the chair was 'torture'. Mc Cotter
resigned in the subsequent scandal and went into the private sector of
prisons only to... yep, you guessed - to reappear in Abu Ghraib amidst the
recent torture horror.
I repeat what he said about the place: "the only place we agreed as a team
was truly closest to an American prison".

Abu Ghraib is not an abberration. It is an American norm. And I am pretty
sure that there are more of the similarly sickening revelations to come. From
other places, other countries.

There was a time when the popular saying had it that god created the earth
and humans but had to create the British to run the bloody place.
Today we have the Amercans doing god's job.

I am beginning to hate that guy.
Obserwuj wątek
    • erwas Re: Abu Ghraib - america unmasked 11.05.04, 19:45
      > Abu Ghraib is not an abberration. It is an American norm.

      that is correct.
      what is happening in Iraqi prisons is not different from how prisons are run in
      the US.
      rape and sexual humiliation are standard procedures with the details of what
      was done to Iraqi prisoners (down to male inmates being forced to wear womens'
      underwear) identical.
      Lane Mc Cotter also left his mark on Santa Fe, New Mexico, near where I live.
      There was an investigation of his procedures and activities, but as far as I
      remember, nothing came of it.
      what better person to bring American Values to to the new fiefdoms of the
      Empire.

      • chickenshorts Re: Abu Ghraib - america unmasked 11.05.04, 22:32
        erwas napisał:

        > what better person to bring American Values to to the new fiefdoms of the
        > Empire.

        Well, there is another angle to the "American Values" and it's called the
        Silver Ring Thing... Something to do with purity or abstinence before marriage,
        and they are coming to Britain soon.

        What is amazing is the blessing of the same oil spiv, your president. George
        Bush has given It seven hundred grand so far as part of his program of
        replacing the sex education with Victorian (American?) values...

        www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1213875,00.html

          • chickenshorts Re: Abu Ghraib - america unmasked 13.05.04, 08:02
            Gość portalu: pussylion-el napisał(a):

            > I presume there are other than Guardian sources of information.
            > This one stinks. www.guardian.co.uk/editor/story/0,12900,982008,00.html

            There, dumbo!
            www.reuters.co.uk/home.jhtml;jsessionid=OT1G4BH3KEHZMCRBAEZSFEY

        • erwas true nature 12.05.04, 05:57
          mr.shorts,

          you must have noticed, I do hope, that I have discontinued our dialogue in
          the "where ar(t)e thou" thread. you need to tame your urges, still your foolish
          heart, and learn how to lead a moral life.

          as far as the seat of civilization goes let us work on the freakin' belka
          blurring the vision in our own eyes before worrying overly about the sty in
          your foes (to paraphrase Our Lord, Jesus Christ).

          far from being the insensitive World Thug the UK nevertheless clings on to many
          of the characteristics of such status, which makes its present showing such a
          sorry sight. Squaddies trading pictures of abused Iraqis like they were
          currency or collectors cards, slaughtering civilians at a rate to make their US
          cousins hi-five ‘em with true American gusto, while wincing with envy at the
          same time.

          and if the pictures of British prisoner abuse do turn out to be false what
          better insight into the British soul could you seek? where will this desperate
          English longing to part of a Very Special relationship take them?

          it sure is a fine coalition.

          i nawet my, za wolnosc nasza i wasza, ignored and despised, but always faithful.

          (wait till Lepper grasps the helm).

          as far the silver jewelry, which W is offering the children of America I get
          the impression that if you jam it up the appropriate orifice it will act as a
          powerful sexual stimulant, contraceptive, and impenetrable barrier to sexually
          transmitted diseases.










    • Gość: dokt0r think about it IP: *.a.002.pth.iprimus.net.au 12.05.04, 07:30
      Let's face it - those prisoners weren't exactly innocent, were they? How would you feel if one of those prisoners just killed one of your mates? You know that as soon as they leave gaol they'll just keep throwing hand grenades at innocent Iraqi and foreign civilians. Would you really give them a 'fair' treatment?

      And after the recent killing of an American citizen I can't help but feel they actually deserved it. Geneva convention just doesn't apply to barbarians.

      It's just amazing how quickly we forget about our own people slain in Iraq. There's so much ado about Abu Gharib, while on the other hand people like Hieronim Kupczyk get only a small mention in the media. Something's not right, is it?
      • chickenshorts ...I'm trying... 12.05.04, 11:26
        Gość portalu: dokt0r napisał(a):

        > Let's face it - those prisoners weren't exactly innocent, were they?

        What sort of medic are you, doc? Are you OK? What do you mean by the tag
        'exactly innocent' when tied to the victims of assault?

        >How would
        > you feel if one of those prisoners just killed one of your mates? <

        If my mate was dumb enough to go on a 'mission of liberating' others,
        especially under Bush/Blair/God aegis, he would no longer be my mate...

        >You know that
        > as soon as they leave gaol they'll just keep throwing hand grenades at
        innocen
        > t Iraqi and foreign civilians.

        And where the fuck do you get all this 'light' from? Fox News? I know Murdoch
        is an Australian but at least he doesn't believe in what his Corporation is
        telling others... He is no Wacko.

        > Would you really give them a 'fair' treatment?

        I am speechless! What is the temperature in Australia where you are?

        > And after the recent killing of an American citizen I can't help but feel
        they
        > actually deserved it. Geneva convention just doesn't apply to barbarians.

        So, the 'revenge beheading' had been foreseen by prescient Lane McCotter and
        appropriately dealt with aforehand, is it?

        Based on that logic, no wonder the whole thing comes a cropper...

        > It's just amazing how quickly we forget about our own people slain in Iraq.
        The
        > re's so much ado about Abu Gharib, while on the other hand people like
        Hieronim
        > Kupczyk get only a small mention in the media. Something's not right, is it?

        What do you mean by 'our own people'?

        Nothing is right there but not in the way you mean it!
      • erwas Re: think about it 12.05.04, 16:03
        Gość portalu: dokt0r napisał(a):

        > Let's face it - those prisoners weren't exactly innocent, were they?

        the official statistic is that between 70 and 90% of those held in Iraqi
        prisons by the coalition were picked up in error.
        "in error" means lapanki. you know, the early morning raid, grab a roomful of
        sleeping people, a careful rifle butt in each face, and off to the dungeon.
        • Gość: wacko jacko Re: think about it IP: *.nyc.rr.com 12.05.04, 19:26
          erwas napisał:
          > the official statistic is that between 70 and 90% of those held in Iraqi
          > prisons by the coalition were picked up in error.

          I must diagree. There are no official statistics. The figure 70% to 90% is an
          assertion by International Red Cross. In this particular prison all of the
          detainees were al qaida types, taken in combat situation.
          Nevertheless, the behavior of the guards is shameful and illegal but far from
          torture.

          Chickenshorts stop taking whatever you're taking.
              • chickenshorts Re: Ladies & gentlemen, the president... 13.05.04, 06:27
                Gość portalu: felusiak napisał(a):

                > I feel sorry for you and yours.
                > Infantile mind, sophomoric argumentation.
                > I feel really sorry.

                Look, who's talking! God bless and thank you, F.!
                I'm no longer a dorky anorak, sounding off on politics and WMD...What a relief!

                > How much is a gallon of gas where you are?

                Scraping the wrong barrel, again! aren't you?

                You are a real WONK, whack. Your pathetic forays into economic, political and
                moral justifications of you know what make you the biggest 'trrriiisstt
                asshole'!


          • kociamama Re: think about it 12.05.04, 20:56
            Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

            >> Nevertheless, the behavior of the guards is shameful and illegal but far from
            > torture.
            >
            It depends on your evaluation then. Sodomizing, forcing to appear naked like on
            the hc sm porn pics and later offering special caresses (namely "electric shock
            therapy")to the prisoners is torture in my understanding.

            Later,
            Kociamama.
            • chickenshorts Re: think about it 12.05.04, 22:14
              kociamama napisała:

              > Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):
              >
              > >> Nevertheless, the behavior of the guards is shameful and illegal but f
              > ar from
              > > torture.
              > >
              > It depends on your evaluation then. Sodomizing, forcing to appear naked like
              on
              >
              > the hc sm porn pics and later offering special caresses (namely "electric
              shock
              >
              > therapy")to the prisoners is torture in my understanding.
              >
              > Later,
              > Kociamama.

              Ah, you don't know Wacko. His idea of torture is, like most of his ideas, a bit
              on a medieval side; you know, impaling, garroting, forced convertion...
                • erwas Re: think about it 13.05.04, 05:02
                  here are some descriptions of these events for you (wacko jacko) to consider:

                  Ronald Rumsfeld: "sadistic, cruel and inhuman"

                  Senator Lindsday Graham (R-SC): "We're not just talking about giving people a
                  humiliating experience - we're talking about rape and murder and some very
                  serious charges."

                  the US Army's internal report: "sadistic, blatant and wanton"
                  it comments on acts such as "Breaking chemical lights and pouring the
                  phosphoric liquid on detainees," and "sodomizing a detainee with a chemical
                  light and perhaps a broom stick."

                  Rush Limbaugh: "understandable", *fraternity prank", "people having a good
                  time, these poeple, you ever heard of emotional relrase? you heard of need to
                  blow some steam off?"

                  no need to ask you, where you stand.
                  • chickenshorts Bush & al., the Wolfovitzs of Arabia 13.05.04, 06:31
                    Images of an American being beheaded in Iraq have horrified the west, but the
                    photographs of prisoners being abused in Abu Ghraib jail sparked surprisingly
                    little outrage among Arabs. Why? Because, says Jonathan Raban, it was precisely
                    what they expected

                    by Jonathan Raban

                    Seeing the terrible pictures of the beheading of Nicholas Berg, it's easy to
                    miss the significance of the soundtrack that accompanies them. The taped voice -
                    presumably that of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian associate of Osama bin
                    Laden - rails not just against the Bush administration, but against the torpor
                    of the Arab world. "The shameful photos are evil humiliation for Muslim men and
                    women in the Abu Ghraib prison. Where is the sense of honour, where is the
                    rage? Where is the anger for God's religion? Where is the sense of veneration
                    for Muslims, and where is the sense of vengeance for the honour of Muslim men
                    and women in the crusaders' prisons?" Professing himself to be outraged by the
                    absence of Arab outrage at the photos from Abu Ghraib, Zarqawi proceeds with
                    his gruesome remake of the videotaped killing of Daniel Pearl in Pakistan in
                    2002.
                    That portion of Zarqawi's repellent message - his claim that people in the
                    Middle East haven't been as shocked by the Abu Ghraib pictures as one might
                    expect - is surely true. For days, there was a feeling of tentative, nervous
                    relief in the United States that the pictures streaming out of Abu Ghraib had
                    not - yet - provoked the wave of uncontrollable and violent popular protest
                    across the Arab world that many Americans had feared. It was suggested that
                    Arabs are so inured to torture in their own countries that they had lost the
                    ability to be shocked by it, also that Iraqi Shia Muslims and Kurds were
                    unlikely to be greatly upset by the sight of Ba'athist Sunnis getting a taste
                    of their own medicine from their western jailers.

                    Both these quasi-explanations were self-serving shots in the dark. What was
                    clear from reading the English-language Arab press over last weekend was the
                    truth of the old saying: "American viciously humiliates Arab" is not news; only
                    when the terms are reversed are headlines made. To most of the Arab editorial
                    writers, and perhaps to most Arabs, the digital photos merely confirmed what
                    they had been saying since long before the invasion of Iraq took place: America
                    is on an orientalist rampage in which Arabs are systematically denatured,
                    dehumanised, stripped of all human complexity, reduced to naked babyhood.

                    Defining the orientalist project, Edward Said wrote of how occidentals
                    feminised and infantilised Arabs, crediting them with "feminine" traits like
                    intuition and an incapacity for reason (so Arab magicians figure large in the
                    mythology, but Arab mathematicians not at all), and rendered Arabia as pliant,
                    sensuous, passive, awaiting penetration by the rational masculine west.

                    In classic orientalist fashion, Iraq was brutally simplified before it was
                    invaded. Because of the way that the British, operating on the principle of
                    divide and rule, had cobbled together three profoundly dissimilar Ottoman
                    provinces to make a nation, Iraq stands alone in the Arab world in its complex
                    rifts of religion, politics, tribe, race and class. For 80 years, Iraq has been
                    an immensely tricky spiderweb of social and cultural lines and intersections.
                    None of this was recognised by the invaders. As recently as last January, so we
                    are told, George Bush was cheerfully ignorant of the deepest, most conspicuous
                    fault-line in Iraqi society, the division between Sunni and Shia. The Bush
                    administration rhetorically homogenised the several peoples of Iraq by endless
                    iteration of the phrase "the Iraqi people", or, when speaking of Saddam, "his
                    own people".

                    When Saddam's gang of Tikritis gassed Kurdish villages or drained the water
                    from the Marsh Arabs' swamps, they were decidedly not dealing with their "own
                    people", but with people they regarded as dangerous aliens: tribally, racially,
                    religiously, politically distinct from themselves. Now, when coalition forces
                    insist on blaming "foreign fighters" for home-grown Iraqi insurrections, they
                    unconsciously mirror the mindset of the Ba'athists, who regarded Kurds and
                    southern Shia as equally foreign fighters. War, said Ambrose Bierce, is God's
                    way of teaching Americans geography, and in the last year some human geography
                    has been learned, mainly to the effect that a large number of Iraqi people
                    appear not to belong to the Iraqi people - that orientalist construct which was
                    the catchphrase of 2002.

                    The Iraqi people were pictured as yearning, femininely, childishly, with one
                    voice, for a pluralist free-market democracy, and (bad taste though it is to
                    recall this detail) they would greet their liberators, femininely, childishly,
                    with flowers. In the early autumn of 2002, the secretary-general of the Arab
                    League, Amr Moussa, warned that a western invasion of Iraq would "open the jaws
                    of hell", but the orientalists listened to no one from the region, preferring
                    to trust the Middle Eastern expertise of Paul Wolfowitz, who blithely
                    represented Iraq as a comely bride, trapped in a dungeon by her wicked
                    stepfather.

                    By the time of the invasion, Iraq had been so exhaustively orientalised that it
                    had lost almost all connection to reality. Much of this effort was grandly
                    sentimental, oozing goodwill toward "the Iraqi people". All of it was
                    dehumanising, robbing Iraqis of their intractable particularity. None of it
                    fooled the long-memoried Arabs in neighbouring states, who had seen this stuff
                    many times before, and who might, perhaps, have recognised in the perorations
                    of Wolfowitz of Arabia the ghostly voice of TE Lawrence in the poem that
                    prefaces The Seven Pillars of Wisdom with a breathtakingly vain promise of
                    mutual orgasm:

                    I loved you, so I drew these tides of men into my hands

                    and wrote my will across the sky in stars

                    To earn you Freedom, the seven-pillared worthy house,

                    that your eyes might be shining for me

                    When we came.

                    In the event, Lawrence's seed was spilled, like Onan's, and like that of every
                    orientalist who has dreamed of liberating Arabia, on the sand.

                    It is necessary to go over this old and painful ground in order to read the
                    messages from Abu Ghraib. One searches the photos in vain for signs of
                    furtiveness on the part of the torturers, for any indication that they were
                    snapped on the sly. To the contrary: the soldiers, fresh-faced, smiling, happy,
                    look as if they are taking pride in a job well done - and the job in question
                    looks like the orientalist enterprise, acted out in gross cartoon form. Here is
                    Arabia nude, faceless under a hood, or ridiculously feminised in women's
                    panties, forced into infantile masturbatory sex and sodomy. (These people are
                    ruled by their nether organs, not by their higher faculties, is the orientalist
                    line.) The jail has become a grotesque nursery, with Private Lynndie England
                    (her very name like the nom de guerre of a sex worker), cigarette jutting from
                    her cheerful grin, playing the part of the au pair from hell. The pictures
                    appear to be so single-minded in their intent, so artfully directed, so
                    relentlessly orientalist in their conception, that one looks instinctively for
                    a choreographer - a senior intelligence officer, perhaps, who keeps Edward Said
                    on his bedside table, and ransacks the book each night for new ideas.

                    That speculation is probably misplaced. A chilling story in last Saturday's New
                    York Times made plain that the humiliations depicted in the Abu Ghraib pictures
                    are regularly practised in domestic American prisons. The reporter, Fox
                    Butterfield, dug up examples of hooding, stripping naked and forced sex
                    inflicted by guards in jails in Arizona, Utah, Virginia and Texas. At least two
                    of the American sol
                    • chickenshorts Re: Bush & al., the Wolfovitzs of Arabia 13.05.04, 06:36

                      ...At least two of the American soldiers due to be court-martialled are
                      reservists who are "corrections officers" in civilian life, and it seems likely
                      that in Baghdad they were indulging in sadistic amusements perfected back home
                      in the US. Like Esperanto, dehumanisation is an international language with a
                      universal grammar, and orientalism is one of its local dialects - a distinction
                      that will, unfortunately, be lost on every Arab and Muslim who brings the
                      photos up on his or her computer.

                      However fortuitously, the pictures of torture fit snugly into the larger
                      pattern of the orientalist conquest of Arabia as it is perceived on the
                      peninsula. What began as romantic simplification of the real life of Iraq - the
                      Wolfowitz scenario - culminates in the erasure of human identity and the
                      rendering of men and women as inanimate objects.

                      Seymour Hersh, who broke the Abu Ghraib story in the New Yorker, quotes
                      Specialist Matthew Wisdom of the Military Police: "I remember SSG Frederick
                      hitting one prisoner in the side of its ribcage ... I saw two naked detainees,
                      one masturbating to another with its mouth open." When pronouns drift so
                      casually from he to it (and the speaker here is a whistleblower, not a
                      torturer), we are in a nightmare world where men are barely distinguishable
                      from flies or black beetles.

                      The gruesome murder of Nicholas Berg should not obscure the fact that the
                      pictures from Abu Ghraib were generally accepted in the Muslim world with
                      eerie, almost philosophical calm. It is as if they knew all along that it was
                      like this. Even before President Bush drew tides of men into his hands and
                      wrote his will across the sky in stars, and long before the goons with digital
                      cameras came on the scene, Arabs knew they were thought of as "it"s.

                      A released detainee, quoted by the New York Times on May 10, says: "I realised
                      [the Americans] came to obliterate a whole society, a whole civilisation" - a
                      thought so old and so commonplace that one might hear it uttered, world-
                      wearily, in any Arab cafe, anywhere across the globe. The questionable truth of
                      the thought hardly matters now: it is so widely believed, so amply,
                      extravagantly confirmed in the grinning face of Lynndie England. "American
                      humiliates Arab" is not news. Unfortunately for us, those - like Zarqawi's al-
                      Qaida franchise - bent on exploiting the injuries of the humiliated know all
                      too well what does make news.

                • chickenshorts Re: think about it 13.05.04, 08:09
                  Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

                  > The beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

                  You very stupid Itze!

                  Here, from Reuters:

                  "By Vicki Allen

                  WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Members of the U.S. Congress have seen new images of
                  violence and sexual humiliation from a U.S.-run Iraqi prison in a closed
                  viewing one lawmaker likened to a descent into "the wings of hell."

                  Lawmakers said on Wednesday images showed inmates apparently being coerced to
                  commit sodomy, wounds possibly from dog bites, a number of dead bodies, and
                  examples of "sadistic torture" and "sexual humiliation."

                  Some top Republicans urged that the still pictures and video not be released
                  publicly, saying they could endanger U.S. forces overseas.

                  "What we saw is appalling. It is consistent with the photos that you've seen in
                  the press to date. They go beyond that in many ways in terms of the various
                  activities that are depicted," said Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a
                  Tennessee Republican.

                  "There were some awful scenes. It felt like you were descending into one of the
                  wings of hell and sadly it was our own creation," said Senator Richard Durbin,
                  an Illinois Democrat. "And when you think of the sadism, the violence, the
                  sexual humiliation, after a while you just turn away, you just can't take it
                  any more.

                  "I still cannot believe that this happened without the knowledge of those at
                  higher levels," Durbin added.

                  Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld warned last week the pictures could worsen a
                  scandal that ignited international outrage and shook U.S. global prestige as
                  the United States seeks to stabilise Iraq.

                  Senators and members of the House of Representatives had a chance over several
                  hours to look at some 1,600 images in separate secure rooms in a presentation
                  conducted by the Pentagon, which kept custody of the material.

                  FORCED SODOMY

                  Many lawmakers said the images were similar to photographs shown around the
                  world of naked prisoners stacked in a pyramid or positioned to simulate sex
                  acts at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, but they said some were even more
                  shocking.

                  Lawmakers said they did not see examples of outright rape, murder or abuses of
                  children.

                  Senator Peter Fitzgerald, an Illinois Republican, said "many of the same people
                  were involved over and over" in the photographs. "I didn't see different
                  characters than the ones who have been in the newspapers," he said.

                  Durbin described a picture of a man with half his head "blown off," lying on
                  the ground in blood and gore, but said there was no explanation of where that
                  was taken.

                  An Islamic Web site on Tuesday showed an American civilian, Nick Berg of
                  suburban Philadelphia, being beheaded by an al Qaeda leader in Iraq in revenge
                  for the "Satanic degradation" of Iraqi prisoners.

                  Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Pat Roberts, a Kansas Republican, whose
                  committee had a closed-door hearing with Stephen Cambone, defence
                  undersecretary for intelligence, said there were "44 CIA people in and out of"
                  Abu Ghraib prison, "a lot during the evening, over a period of time."

                  Congress is trying to establish whether the mistreatment was encouraged by
                  intelligence personnel to "soften up" prisoners for interrogations.

                  Roberts also said two other U.S. prisons in Iraq were mentioned in the latest
                  material, "but the abuses were not as severe."

                  'GUT WRENCHING'

                  Republican Jane Harman, a California Democrat, said the new pictures
                  showed "cruel and sadistic torture."

                  She described as "gut wrenching" images of a nearly naked man "handcuffed to a
                  wall, beating his head against the wall, recoiling back and forward, probably
                  trying to knock himself unconscious and avoid having to live through the
                  experience."

                  Lawmakers said the images were shown fairly rapidly and with minimal
                  explanation. Senator James Jeffords, a Vermont independent, said the pictures
                  were "horrible. But they go by so fast. Terrible scenes. ... It was click,
                  click, click.

                  Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner, a Virginia Republican,
                  urged that the images not be released before trials related to the abuses of
                  detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison.

                  "I feel very strongly that these photographs should not be made public. I feel
                  that it could possibly endanger the men and the women of the armed forces as
                  they are serving and at great risk," Warner said.


                  > Some say that walking around in the 10 by 10 room constitutes the torture.
                  > Sleep depravation in their eyes is the torture.
                  >
                  > Well, go to any prison between Marocco and Pakistan and find out what the
                  > torture really is.

                  Is that where you learnt your lessons?

                • kociamama Re: think about it 13.05.04, 08:28
                  The fact that prisoners face, let's say, austere conditions in jails in
                  Pakistan is no justification for maltreatment of the Iraqis whatsoever.

                  Americans started this war in order to introduce democracy, and human rights,
                  and to supervise whether these are not infringed.

                  But I know, I'm naive to think the aim of this war is to improve the plight of
                  the Iraqis. As somebody put it here, "how much is a gallon of gas in the place
                  you live?" All actions are justified, even as long as the price of fuel is
                  reasonable.

                  Later,
                  Kociamama.
                  • Gość: wacko jacko I'm wit you IP: *.nyc.rr.com 14.05.04, 06:30
                    kociamama napisala:
                    > The fact that prisoners face, let's say, austere conditions in jails in
                    > Pakistan is no justification for maltreatment of the Iraqis whatsoever.

                    I am not trying to justify the maltreatment. In a PR war it's a disaster.
                    How can we win the hearts and minds of the iraqis while commiting crimes.
                    Nevertheless all has to be put in a proper perspective.
                    It has to be pointed the military started the investigation in mid January
                    and anounced it to the world. But the world was busy bashing Bush and missed it.
                    There was no cover up like in a MyLai case.

                    PS. "how much is a gallon of gas in the place you live?"
                    That was a joke, just to get chickenshorts boiling. Unsuccessful thou.




          • erwas Re:'official statistics' 17.05.04, 20:29
            no, I didn't make them up; the are, as Wacko Jacko pointed out, put out by the
            IRC, which is a pretty reliable source of that kind of information. these
            figures are not diputed by the US as far as I know.
            all the alarming and so far discredited reports, which the Red Cross and
            various human rights organizations have been putting out about the situation in
            detention centers in Iraq and other parts of the archipelago, have proven to be
            correct, if not a little understated. after all, the tortures and abusers were
            careful to hide their deeds from outside observers, just as they are at their
            other sites.
            note, how quite suddenly it it possible to release whole bus-loads
            of "terrorists". what was the point of holding them in the first place. just to
            have a little fun?
            are there any instances of anyone being charged, let alone convicted of any
            crimes for which they are being held?
              • erwas Re:'official statistics' 18.05.04, 22:47
                since these are headline news, I feel almost foolish giving you these links.
                you should never feel shy about using Google.

                here's one source:
                Military intelligence officers told Red Cross monitors that 70 to 90 percent of
                captives in Iraq last year had been arrested by mistake, the report stated.
                Some Iraqi families roamed the country for weeks trying to uncover the fate of
                their imprisoned relatives, who had disappeared into the military
                www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14011-2004May10.html
                this is from a report from Amnesty International
                www.amnestyusa.org/countries/usa/document.do?
                id=9FEE894A64AC736085256DEF005811F7, (December, 2003), suggesting that the
                ICRC information is incomplete:
                ...abuses are alleged to have taken place in an interrogation section on the
                second floor of the Bagram detention facility, to which representatives of the
                International Committee of the Red Cross - who visit other parts of the
                facility - are reportedly denied access.

                and lastly, from the horses mouth, the U.S. Army report on prisoner abuse.

                The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have
                routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs)
                without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for
                their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu
                Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.”
                www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/
    • Gość: wacko jacko People take it easy................... IP: *.nyc.rr.com 14.05.04, 06:03
      The beauty is in the eye of the beholder I say again and if need be, again.
      In my eyes I am beautiful and chickenshorts is definitely an ugly bastard, kind
      of an asshole with the mission to fix the ills of the world.
      What constitutes a torture in the western civilisation today is not considered a
      torture in the muslim world. We, after all don't share the same system of values.
      In my country, in the state of Florida the electric chair was ruled
      unconstitutional and deemed cruel and unusual. Now they have to use a gas
      chamber. In the muslim world beheading and stoning is just snd humane and
      honoreable especially when beheading is performed by the victim's family.

      Dear chuckenchortz I do read daily and I pay attention not to fall for cheap
      shots and taken out of context quotations (erwas on limbaugh).
      For each and everyone anti-war, anti-Bush column there is at least one
      expressing the opposite view.

      You see, to be against the war or against the administration's policy, foreign
      or domestic is a valid stance. I respect that. Say war was premature, not
      justified, there was no clear and present danger. All these points are valid.
      In a democratic society dissent is valued and necessary.
      In other words Limbaugh and Franken, Novak and Hunt must exist for a system to
      be healthy.
      In conclusion, I will defend your right to post your gibberish on this forum.
      I will defend your right to call me an asshole, stupid asshole and
      itze (whatever it means). You have the right to be stupid, to be an asshole,
      to be a racist or a pacifist, to be a leftwinger or a rightwinger.
      As they say in the army: Be all you can (wanna) be.

      PS. Get off the bandwagon and begin to think for yourself. For starters try to
      read WSJ for the balance.
      Now, let me enlighten you on the difference between you and erwas.
      Erwas is a mature person. On top of what he knows he also understands.
      That kind of understanding is only possible when one lives and works in the
      country. Unfortunately, you lack that understanding.
      That's all I can say about the shrimp.





      • chickenshorts Re: People take it easy................... 14.05.04, 07:30
        Hello, Whack!

        Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

        > The beauty is in the eye of the beholder I say again and if need be, again.
        > In my eyes I am beautiful and chickenshorts is definitely an ugly bastard,
        kind
        > of an asshole with the mission to fix the ills of the world.

        Well, no, not really but maybe virtually, sort of... It has some entertainment
        value.

        > What constitutes a torture in the western civilisation today is not
        considered
        > a
        > torture in the muslim world. We, after all don't share the same system of
        value
        > s.
        > In my country, in the state of Florida the electric chair was ruled
        > unconstitutional and deemed cruel and unusual. Now they have to use a gas
        > chamber. In the muslim world beheading and stoning is just snd humane and
        > honoreable especially when beheading is performed by the victim's family.

        I skip the above rant as the words fail me...

        > Dear chuckenchortz I do read daily and I pay attention not to fall for cheap
        > shots and taken out of context quotations (erwas on limbaugh).
        > For each and everyone anti-war, anti-Bush column there is at least one
        > expressing the opposite view.

        ...only where you reside and it's hard not to know the reason for it. It will
        be the blackest day when Bush is re-elected.

        > You see, to be against the war or against the administration's policy, foreign
        > or domestic is a valid stance. I respect that. Say war was premature, not
        > justified, there was no clear and present danger. All these points are valid.
        > In a democratic society dissent is valued and necessary.
        > In other words Limbaugh and Franken, Novak and Hunt must exist for a system to
        > be healthy.
        > In conclusion, I will defend your right to post your gibberish on this forum.
        > I will defend your right to call me an asshole, stupid asshole and
        > itze (whatever it means). You have the right to be stupid, to be an asshole,
        > to be a racist or a pacifist, to be a leftwinger or a rightwinger.
        > As they say in the army: Be all you can (wanna) be.

        Have you got an option? I suspect you to be the type that wouldn't (defend my
        right)if he had any say in the matter.



        > PS. Get off the bandwagon and begin to think for yourself.

        No!!!

        >For starters try to
        > read WSJ for the balance.
        > Now, let me enlighten you on the difference between you and erwas.
        > Erwas is a mature person. On top of what he knows he also understands.
        > That kind of understanding is only possible when one lives and works in the
        > country. Unfortunately, you lack that understanding.

        Couldn't agree more! That's why I miss erwas' posts. But then you both share
        some peculiar attitude whenever america is mentioned critically... You get
        (differently) patriotic... Can't imagine myself being so bothered about France
        or Poland. Strange, that...

        > That's all I can say about the shrimp.

        That's fine with me. Have another nice & 'cheap petrol' day!
        But think sometimes about your grandchildren. So far, your war on terror
        created more terrorists than it 'removed' and, surely, there is a reason for
        it... Even you can see that, no?
          • chickenshorts Re: People take it easy................... 14.05.04, 22:09
            Gee, you are still here...

            Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

            > what's "itze" ?

            Well, the answer is two-fold: a)Itze is some inflected form of Yitzchak or
            Itzhak and it could be it:

            www.malli-p.de/Mallis_Welt/Bilder2/Baeren_selfmade/itze.htm
            or b) in my private language (ever heard of Wittgeinstein?) it would be a
            little nasty dog (often considered & considering itself Chosen) that enjoys
            impunity because of the presense of a big, big strong and stupid enough dog to
            fall for the crap...

            But Whacky, look at this like broadminded man and try to see it from a liberal
            perspective: I think you owe me at least one 'thank you'.

            Consider (with little pride) your previous post. Quite good, honestly.
            Considering the fuckwit you usually parade as...(Btw, it was you who first
            resorted to name calling if you care to remember, so stop complaining) ...and
            considering your whinging about boring forum... So, here I come and poke it
            with a stick! What a lot of dust!
            And even Kociamama decided to step outside her remit, leave her field of
            expertize and drag her fat tail over Here, to my thread!

            Now, whack, say 'thank you' or at least stop whining. Shalom.


            • Gość: wacko jacko Re: People take it easy................... IP: *.nyc.rr.com 15.05.04, 19:38
              Me? Whining? pahlease.

              So, once again I have become a nasty dog Jew.
              Not the first time. If you are not with us then you're must be against and the
              only people against us are dirty fucking Jews.

              As of name calling I beg to differ. I called erwas first but you were first to
              call me a PRICK.

              OK. Thank yOu ........... but, try not to copy and glue. Give me a link instead
              and post your passionate opinion in your own words. Don't be afraid, itz eezzey



                • Gość: wacko jacko Re: american values IP: *.nyc.rr.com 16.05.04, 16:26
                  Accusations are not substantiated as of today.
                  The story on Guantanamo is much better than tne hatchet job by Hersch who's
                  known to be the one of the most venomous anti-administration writers.
                  You know I don't go to New Yorker or the Nation Magazine for news.
                  I'd like to see these videotapes from Guantanamo.

                  PS. There is a new discussion on the reach of US courts.
                  Do they have jurisdiction over Guantanamo Bay? Can GB detainees sue in US courts?
                  There was an interesting essay in WSJ last week on yhat subject.
                  I can't find a link to it, sorry.
                • Gość: wacko jacko Re: People take it easy................... IP: *.nyc.rr.com 16.05.04, 15:59
                  Why. hmmmm? You see, chickenshorts is the only one willing to go the distance.
                  At least he tries to defend his ground.
                  Unfortunately he does not have the slightest idea how Washington works.
                  He does not know the purpose of so called congressional hearings and is unaware
                  of the amount of grandstanding. He does not know that senators questions are in
                  fact 5 minute speeches. And then comes the face time. Run for the place in front
                  of the cameras. To be on the evening news.
                  All of this in the atmosphere of a witchhunting. Gotcha politics.
                  After all it's THE election year.
                    • chickenshorts american values 17.05.04, 06:24
                      "So long as the buck stops with England and her colleagues, the whole episode
                      can be reduced to soccer hooligans in uniform - the white working class (one
                      African-American is accused, although he is featured rarely and appears in no
                      photographs) running amok. Like arresting the Watergate burglars and leaving
                      Nixon in the White House, convicting only them would suggest the abuse can be
                      understood as the sporadic acts of a few offensive individuals. The higher up
                      it goes, the clearer it becomes that they were in fact the systemic actions of
                      an occupying institution.

                      There is no need to fetishise class in all of this. Their class on its own does
                      not carry any moral value, guilt or innocence. But it is relevant to their
                      agency in a top-down military command structure. In the words of one of their
                      attorneys: "Do you really think a group of kids from rural Virginia decided to
                      do this on their own?"

                      www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1218463,00.html
                      www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1218417,00.html
                        • chickenshorts Re: american values 17.05.04, 07:02
                          Frankly, wacko, I find your line of argument quite pathetic. Your assertion
                          that because I don't know the workings of the flushing system in your country I
                          can't see the reality can be translated thus: I, wacko (and erwas, too) are
                          familiar with the system and therefore we know that shit can turn into gold.

                          On the subject of Itze, you are a) and b) was a ref. to Israel.
                          Maybe you should read less to understand more.
                          Are you doing evening classes in political science?
                            • chickenshorts Re: american values 18.05.04, 09:43
                              Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

                              > ?

                              too deep for you?
                              Ok, let's try different route. You suggested I should read WSJ... Why?
                              Do you read the Journal paying attention to detail or just regularly? Are you
                              familiar with figures showing falling popularity of American consumer goods on
                              glabal scale (= world wide demand down), simply because of the shift in
                              perception of America since the war in Iraq... Are you aware if that?

                              How is the mammoth doing on the home front?

                              Good figures on employment? Let Naomi Klein explain to you few things:

                              "According to a US labour department report, 288,000 jobs were created in
                              April. Bush's campaign has seized on these numbers to further cast John Kerry
                              as the dour New England pessimist, always droning on with bad news."

                              Ha, ha... "Some jobs, however, are more responsive than others to the power of
                              positive presidential thinking. More than 82% of the jobs created in April were
                              in service industries, including restaurants and retail. The biggest new
                              employers were temp agencies. Over the past year, 272,000 manufacturing jobs
                              have been lost. No wonder the president's economic report in February floated
                              the idea of reclassifying fast-food restaurants as factories. "When a fast-food
                              restaurant sells a hamburger, for example, is it providing a 'service' or is it
                              combining inputs to 'manufacture' a product?" the report asks."

                              But this one is even better:

                              "But not all of the job growth in the US has come from burger-flipping and
                              temping. With more than 2 million Americans behind bars, the number of prison
                              guards has exploded - from 270,317 in 2000 to 476,000 in 2002."

                              Burgreoning prison industry bringing new jobs!!! should be the headlines for
                              Bush campaign.

                              www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1218981,00.html
                              If a person tells me that an oil spivvy with dubious record on about anything,
                              from driving to environment is a 'skillful player' and an asset to his country -
                              I know what to think of the person.

                              But then, no doubt, you are going to vote for him again, aren't you?

                              I think that you are a 'freeper' and that portal is your chief source of info
                              and ideology, despite your protesting otherwise...

                                • chickenshorts Re: american values 19.05.04, 08:45
                                  Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

                                  > There is a huge wall between us. It seems we both are talking to it.

                                  That's only because you willfully maintain your position behind it.


                                  > Good luck. I wouldn't take Naomi Klein's words to the bank.

                                  No, you wouldn't... You'd rather rely on someone taking government grants for
                                  rewriting history on the witchHunter, as far as I remember.

                                  > Have you noticed how attractive she looks?

                                  Never seen her. Send a picture if you can...

                                  > Have you checked your goyder?

                                  Do it on regular basis... It's me age, you see...
                      • erwas Re: american values 17.05.04, 20:51
                        not only are the lowly-trash-wretches being singled out for show trials and
                        punishment, but their bosses are escaping scrutiny and still in business in the
                        world wide network of dungeons. I can easily assume that the tortures are still
                        continuing, perhaps in new Iraqi locations.
                        but in the locations alredy well established (outside of Iraq), where no
                        outside oversight is possible and potential whistle-blowers well taken care of,
                        the torture continues, no doubt.
                        • chickenshorts It wasn't him, he claimed. 20.05.04, 10:26
                          "I would like to apologise," he said. "I have let everyone down. It isn't me. I
                          shouldn't have photographed those detainees."

                          "I love the army. I love that flag. All I wanted to be was a US soldier," he
                          added, before returning to his seat, sniffing."

                          www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220708,00.html
                          • chickenshorts new photos 20.05.04, 12:30
                            www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1220829,00.html
                            now, isn't that consistent with america's image as god's warrior? Look at this:


                            "Just before Boykin was put in charge of the hunt for Osama bin Laden and then
                            inserted into Iraqi prison reform, he was a circuit rider for the religious
                            right. He allied himself with a small group called the Faith Force Multiplier
                            that advocates applying military principles to evangelism. Its manifesto -
                            Warrior Message - summons "warriors in this spiritual war for souls of this
                            nation and the world ... "

                            'Boykin staged a travelling slide show around the country where he displayed
                            pictures of Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. "Satan wants to destroy this nation,
                            he wants to destroy us as a nation, and he wants to destroy us as a Christian
                            army," he preached. They "will only be defeated if we come against them in the
                            name of Jesus". It was the reporting of his remarks at a revival meeting in
                            Oregon that made them a subject of brief controversy."

                            www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1220622,00.html
                            • Gość: wacko jacko Re: new photos IP: *.nyc.rr.com 20.05.04, 22:18
                              sid blumenthal has a reputation, you know. He is a known liar.
                              On top of being a liar he is also an aparatchik.
                              All of the above straight from Washington Post.

                              " To understand the monumental stupidity of this new initiative, imagine the
                              following: We are lucky enough to capture one Abu Musab Zarqawi - a Jordanian
                              militant with al Qaeda connections, specialist in bio and chemical weaponry,
                              suspected organizer of much of the Iraqi resistance movement and alleged
                              beheader of American civilian Nick Berg.

                              Now add the latest policy: No asking questions until the terrorist gets his
                              refreshing eight-hour snooze - with the "night-light" on, if he so desires.
                              After that, possibly a comfortable chair.

                              Got the picture? A man who would have volumes of knowledge about the world's
                              most lethal terror organization, who likely knows where the next several attacks
                              on U.S. soldiers will occur, a man who might even know where chemical and bio
                              weapons are being stockpiled for use against Americans - and we'll treat him
                              with kid gloves.

                              Why? To satisfy the "sensitivities" of those who are still incapable or
                              unwilling to recognize the true nature of the enemy we face, even after 9/11 and
                              a videotaped decapitation.

                              Milk and cookies, too? "
                              • erwas Re: new photos 21.05.04, 05:40
                                > imagine the
                                following: We are lucky enough to capture one Abu Musab Zarqawi - a Jordanian
                                > militant with al Qaeda connections, specialist in bio and chemical weaponry,
                                > suspected organizer of much of the Iraqi resistance movement and alleged
                                > beheader of American civilian Nick Berg.


                                don't imagine, wacko.
                                vivid imagination is not a substitute for gathered information.
                                Abu Musab Zarqawi has as many connections with al Qaeda as Saddam Hussain did,
                                which is none. he is not an "organizer" of Iraqi resistance, no one is. not
                                yet, anyway.
                                further yet: there really is no such thing as al Qaeda. there is a Bin Laden
                                (somewhere), but he is not an organizer of terrorism, he merely funds it.
                                various organizations come to him with this or that scheme with the hope that
                                he will approve and fund it.
                                what Abu and Bin do share is a worldview, even though they are in competition
                                with one another. Israeli intelligence classifies them as "jihadi
                                international", which is more accurate than assuming that they are all part of
                                an organization. this is a (Muslim) world-wide movement, rapidly gainig
                                strength and new recruits, largly due to the actions of the debile i kretyni
                                now running the "greatest nation on Earth".
                                if you study it a little more carefully, the black-and-white certainties of the
                                al Qaeda types are not that much different from those of the born-again
                                Christian fundamentalists and neocons in DC. at least their fantasy reaches to
                                setting up some Islamic empire stretching from Southern Spain through the
                                Balkans, Central Asia to...wherever, and not just sitting on some cloud, at the
                                right hand of God watching the rest of us being nibbled by locust and frogs
                                after whizzing up in some rupture type of event.

                                if I gather from the rest of what you wrote that you advocate torture, then
                                (I'm sure you'll agree with me on this one) you are indeed a very low form of
                                life. I can tolerate opposing points of view, but if that is where you position
                                yourself I am affraid that I will have to scrape you of the bottom of my shoe.
                                I do enjoy having an idiot to address myself to, and I will miss you, so
                                please! tell me it ain't so.

                                • Gość: wacko jacko Re: new photos IP: *.nyc.rr.com 22.05.04, 16:05
                                  erwas,erwas the one thing you can't tolerate is the opposing point of view.
                                  Opposing is stupid, low form of life deserving to be scraped off of the bottom
                                  of the shoe. I don't advocate the torture, not at all. Kill'em all, now.
                                  These people (jihadist) understand only naked force.
                                  PS. You go and tell those in WTC and those in the trains around Madrid
                                  that Bin Laden is merely financing such operations. Merely.

                                  I must warn you erwas. WTC is only the preview of coming attractions.
                                  It's not if we will be attacked again. The question is when?

                                  • chickenshorts Re: new photos 22.05.04, 18:45
                                    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):
                                    >imagine the
                                    >ollowing: We are lucky enough to capture one Abu Musab Zarqawi - a Jordanian
                                    >militant with al Qaeda connections, specialist in bio and chemical weaponry,
                                    >suspected organizer of much of the Iraqi resistance movement and alleged
                                    >beheader of American civilian Nick Berg.

                                    I have... Well?

                                    Why don't you stretch your imagination a bit further! Torture them all & kill
                                    them all & then look into the mirror... Who will you see, whackwit?...
                                    Maybe... Musab Zarqawi? How lucky!!!

                                    And I thought you went to war because of A)Iraq's WMD, B) change of regime...?
                                    Zilch to *A + you caught B) What are you still doing there? Are you an American
                                    patriot? or an Israeli one? Because if the shrub is an asset, it's certaimly to
                                    Sharons and Nethanfuckyus:

                                    www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1222394,00.html
                                    Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):
                                    do erwasa, co prawda ale...:

                                    > erwas,erwas the one thing you can't tolerate is the opposing point of view.
                                    > Opposing is stupid, low form of life deserving to be scraped off of the bottom
                                    > of the shoe. I don't advocate the torture, not at all. Kill'em all, now.
                                    > These people (jihadist) understand only naked force.
                                    > PS. You go and tell those in WTC and those in the trains around Madrid
                                    > that Bin Laden is merely financing such operations. Merely.
                                    >
                                    > I must warn you erwas. WTC is only the preview of coming attractions.
                                    > It's not if we will be attacked again. The question is when?

                                    Because they prefer few virgins than American version of happiness? I thought,
                                    no sane santient being would run away from ... well, being & feeling well...

                                    You mean... they are not really human beings... Well, I mean...
                                    How old are you, whak?
                                    • Gość: wacko jacko sweet dreams...................... IP: *.nyc.rr.com 22.05.04, 19:51
                                      You guys understand nothing.
                                      All this gibberish you are pasting here is worth less than paper it's written on.
                                      You are destined to live in fear and that's what you deserve.
                                      If you think that those jihadist will spare you... sweet dreams (on the other
                                      side while pushing daisies).

                                      Moralize yourself. I rather kill than be killed.

                                      PS. I love Netanyahu. He speaks good english and he call them as he sees them.
                                      Blunt honesty is worth more than flowery bullshit.

                                      I am way older than both of you.
    • usenetposts Re: Abu Ghraib - america unmasked 20.05.04, 23:54
      chickenshorts napisał:

      > Last January, an online magazine, Corrections.com, run an interview with Mr
      > Lane Mc Cotter who proudly announced that the Iraqi prison was "the only
      > place we agreed as a team was truly closest to an American prison".
      >
      > Who is Mc Cotter? He was head of Department of Corrections in Utah when, in
      > 1997, a prisoner named Michael Valent, who was diagnosed with schizofrenia,
      > died after being tied to a 'restraining chair' for sixteen hours. The
      > American Civil Liberties Union executive director admitted that the immediate
      > thought that came to her mind upon seeing the chair was 'torture'. Mc Cotter
      > resigned in the subsequent scandal and went into the private sector of
      > prisons only to... yep, you guessed - to reappear in Abu Ghraib amidst the
      > recent torture horror.
      > I repeat what he said about the place: "the only place we agreed as a team
      > was truly closest to an American prison".
      >
      > Abu Ghraib is not an abberration. It is an American norm. And I am pretty
      > sure that there are more of the similarly sickening revelations to come. From
      > other places, other countries.
      >
      > There was a time when the popular saying had it that god created the earth
      > and humans but had to create the British to run the bloody place.
      > Today we have the Amercans doing god's job.
      >
      > I am beginning to hate that guy.
      >

      This is tangential to my provocative article "Sol-Vent abuse" in
      www.usenetposts.com/art8.htm

      I just know you're gonna love it.

      best,

      Uncle Davey
      www.usenetposts.com
      • chickenshorts Re: Abu Ghraib - america unmasked 21.05.04, 08:28
        usenetposts napisał:

        > I just know you're gonna love it.
        >
        > best,
        >
        > Uncle Davey
        > www.usenetposts.com

        christianity with dentures?

        unless you mean 'rotten teeth' but you are too vain to show them...

        not ever return to teeth, uncle. the times of Innocent are over!

        In return gesture and very much in gentleman-ly fashion, I am sending you an
        article by Polly Toynbee:
        www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,787075,00.html

        PS. Can't quite fathom whetther you are a clown or plain idiot?
        • chickenshorts Re: - america unmasked 21.05.04, 22:01

          > usenetposts napisał:
          >
          > > I just know ...

          Sorry, uncle, for being so harsh... eearly morning and all that...

          You are just a salesman, a businessman in the insurance business... Oh, you
          have no shame. I used to do that (with success) when I was young and foolish
          but at least what I peddled was what most people really needed - a policy that
          would cover the cost of burial.

          Uncle's business is selling a policy against eternity in hell... well, well...

          "Why Join OCCM?
          There are many, great reasons to join OCCM and here are some of them.

          1. Membership with OCCM gives you a 100 word advertisement for your ministry.
          Our web sites receive thousands of visits each month and your ad (preferably
          written by you) will drive this traffic to your web site

          (having more people p r a y for your ministry, i n v e s t in your ministry,
          etc.). This advertisement will stay on OCCM for your entire, lifetime
          membership, making this alone a significant reason for membership."...

          pay and pray ...


          • chickenshorts uncle davy, the poet 21.05.04, 22:16
            This is too good to miss, uncle... I hope you don't mind my helping you spread
            these... these... words

            1. "O LORD OUR GOD, HOW GREAT THOU ART"

            (Words Uncle Davey, Cambridge 1985, Music George F. Handel 1685-1759 Tune
            name "Gopsal")

            First published 10th January 2004, Go back to list of hymns, Go back to home
            page or Go to Bulletin Board
            (NB. The picture to the right was taken in 1985, this is how I looked when I
            wrote this hymn.)




            1.
            O Lord, Our God, how great
            Thou art, in all the Earth!
            How excellent Thy name
            Who causedst heaven's birth.
            Who hast Thy glory set on high
            O Lord, Thy name we magnify.
            2.
            Out of the mouths of babes
            Thou hast ordained strength
            Thine enemies to still
            And be avenged at length
            Lord, when Thy weak ones cry to Thee
            Thou art at hand to set us free.

            3.
            When I consider all
            The works Thy hand hath made
            The sun, the moon and stars
            Whose courses Thou hast laid
            Then what is man, that Thou shouldst send
            Thine only Son, his soul to mend?

            4.
            Thy mercy unto man
            Transcendeth all our thought
            Our sins were sore to scan
            But Jesus Christ us sought
            He bore our curse and misery
            In agony on Calvary

            5.
            Because Christ all hath done
            We hurry to believe
            And bitterly repent
            New, holy hearts receive
            In filthy rags we did despair
            But now Christ's righteousness we wear

            6.
            Redeemed, restored we stand
            Thee ever to adore
            By grace constrained to love,
            We seek to know Thee more
            In full assurance of Thy grace
            We press to bow before Thy face
            • chickenshorts Re: uncle davy, the poet 22.05.04, 22:31
              Uncle! where art thou?!?
              > (NB. The picture to the right was taken in 1985, this is how I looked when I
              > wrote this hymn.)

              Right! It would be very selfish not to share with my folk this:

              www.usenetposts.com/myhymns.htm

              and this inspired 'poem' again:

              > 1.
              > O Lord, Our God, how great
              > Thou art, in all the Earth!
              > How excellent Thy name
              > Who causedst heaven's birth.
              > Who hast Thy glory set on high
              > O Lord, Thy name we magnify.
              > 2.
              > Out of the mouths of babes
              > Thou hast ordained strength
              > Thine enemies to still
              > And be avenged at length
              > Lord, when Thy weak ones cry to Thee
              > Thou art at hand to set us free.
              >
              > 3.
              > When I consider all
              > The works Thy hand hath made
              > The sun, the moon and stars
              > Whose courses Thou hast laid
              > Then what is man, that Thou shouldst send
              > Thine only Son, his soul to mend?
              >
              > 4.
              > Thy mercy unto man
              > Transcendeth all our thought
              > Our sins were sore to scan
              > But Jesus Christ us sought
              > He bore our curse and misery
              > In agony on Calvary
              >
              > 5.
              > Because Christ all hath done
              > We hurry to believe
              > And bitterly repent
              > New, holy hearts receive
              > In filthy rags we did despair
              > But now Christ's righteousness we wear
              >
              > 6.
              > Redeemed, restored we stand
              > Thee ever to adore
              > By grace constrained to love,
              > We seek to know Thee more
              > In full assurance of Thy grace
              > We press to bow before Thy face

              and now the " very tangential" (sic) to any way of thinking article by a
              Christian with American dentures:
              www.usenetposts.com/art8.htm
              Now, uncle, tell us honestly (ha ha...) what are you cruising here for?...
              new souls, are Poles considered stupid enough for your Christian lurve?...
              • chickenshorts Uncle!!! 22.05.04, 23:06
                Uncle, where are you? I need your guiding wisdom! These are my problems:

                Number 1: I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
                menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15v.19- 33). My problem is how do I tell? Most
                women take offence when I ask.

                Number2: I know that I am not to eat shellfish (Leviticus11.v.10)

                Does this include Lobster? If so the Lord would be very displeased that they
                are being caught, cooked and eaten around the world.

                Number 3: I know that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may
                I still play football if I wear gloves or can my relatives still have their
                heart operations and receive a pigs valve?

                Number 4 Most of my male friends, including myself, cut their hair and beards,
                even though it is expressly forbidden by Lev.19 v.27. How should we die? How
                can I, once dead, stop the guy in morque from shaving me?

                Number 5: A friend of mine has a farm. He violates Lev.19 v.19 by planting two
                different seeds in one field and his family wear garments made of two different
                kinds of thread (linen & wool). What shall we do with them?
                He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we get
                the whole town out to stone him? ( Lev.24 v10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them at
                a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?
                (Lev.20 v.14)

                Number 6: A number of us work on the Sabbath Exodus 35 v.2 clearly states that
                we should be put to death. Who is morally obligated to kill us?

                If you don't help, uncle davey, who will?...

                  • erwas Re: Uncle!!! 23.05.04, 02:46
                    you raise a lot of interesting points in your previous post. I will have to
                    study it carefuly.

                    > You know what, my American friend, as we, Europeans, have become LESS
                    > religious we have also become MORE civilised... What do you say to that?

                    here though, you go completely overboard.
                    since when is being Polish or even English, for that matter = European.
                    as for being civilized...
                    remember what happened to Vandals after the split from the Nadwislanski region
                    and made themselves comfortable in North Africa? perhaps you don't. well, they
                    became civilized.
                    hear much about the Vandals lately?
                    if being civilized means flashing your boobs (if you have some) on some beach
                    in France then you have a great future ahead of you. but if, as I suspect, it
                    means endless whining, moralistic posturing and fussing over forty different
                    kinds of cheese in your local Geant, then I'm afraid you're on the same path as
                    them Vandals of late.


                    • chickenshorts Re: Uncle!!! 23.05.04, 18:08
                      erwas napisał:

                      >... if, as I suspect, it
                      > means endless whining, moralistic posturing

                      Here you've got a point, I grant you!

                      >and fussing over forty different
                      > kinds of cheese in your local Geant, then I'm afraid you're on the same path
                      as
                      > them Vandals of late.

                      ...but not here!!!
                      Geant?!? 40 kinds of cheese? How barbaric! Geant is where the uncivilized
                      Americans + some other barbarians do their shopping. Mon Dieu!
                      The civilized Frenchman or woman shops for fromage in special shops where you
                      can find no less than 300 different kinds of cheese... And don't forget to rub
                      in some garlic if you want to pass for a refined gentleman!

                      ...40/50 cheeses, buh, how uncivilized!
                      • chickenshorts Judgemental or Judicious? 24.05.04, 10:07
                        Susan Sontag, my favourite American comentator on America:

                        "(...)...
                        The memory museum is now mostly a visual one. Photographs have an insuperable
                        power to determine what people recall of events, and it now seems likely that
                        the defining association of people everywhere with the rotten war that the
                        Americans launched preemptively in Iraq last year will be photographs of the
                        torture of Iraqi prisoners in the most infamous of Saddam Hussein's prisons,
                        Abu Ghraib.
                        The slogans and phrases fielded by the Bush administration and its defenders
                        have been chiefly aimed at limiting a public relations disaster - the
                        dissemination of the photographs - rather than dealing with the complex crimes
                        of leadership, policies and authority revealed by the pictures. There was,
                        first of all, the displacement of the reality on to the photographs themselves.
                        The administration's initial response was to say that the president was shocked
                        and disgusted by the photographs - as if the fault or horror lay in the images,
                        not in what they depict. There was also the avoidance of the word torture. The
                        prisoners had possibly been the objects of "abuse", eventually
                        of "humiliation" - that was the most to be admitted. "My impression is that
                        what has been charged thus far is abuse, which I believe technically is
                        different from torture," secretary of defence Donald Rumsfeld said at a press
                        conference.(...)"

                        www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1223344,00.html
                    • usenetposts Re: Uncle!!! 24.05.04, 11:42
                      erwas napisał:

                      > you raise a lot of interesting points in your previous post. I will have to
                      > study it carefuly.
                      >
                      > > You know what, my American friend, as we, Europeans, have become LESS
                      > > religious we have also become MORE civilised... What do you say to that?
                      >
                      > here though, you go completely overboard.
                      > since when is being Polish or even English, for that matter = European.
                      > as for being civilized...
                      > remember what happened to Vandals after the split from the Nadwislanski
                      region
                      > and made themselves comfortable in North Africa? perhaps you don't. well,
                      they
                      > became civilized.
                      > hear much about the Vandals lately?
                      > if being civilized means flashing your boobs (if you have some) on some beach
                      > in France then you have a great future ahead of you. but if, as I suspect, it
                      > means endless whining, moralistic posturing and fussing over forty different
                      > kinds of cheese in your local Geant, then I'm afraid you're on the same path
                      as
                      >
                      > them Vandals of late.
                      >
                      >


                      True.
                  • usenetposts Re: Uncle!!! 24.05.04, 11:41
                    chickenshorts napisał:

                    > You know what, my American friend, as we, Europeans, have become LESS
                    religious
                    >
                    > we have also become MORE civilised... What do you say to that?

                    What I say is this:

                    1. I'm not an American, I'm English

                    2. As we became less religious, we became the epicentre of the two world wars,
                    which happened because the modern liberalism and atheistic philosophies that
                    originated mainly in Germany caused a spiritual vacuum there which naziism and
                    militarism filled. I don't call murdering 6 million Jews civilised, but that
                    was the fruit of the irreligious philosophies that came out of Germany in the
                    latter part of the nineteenth century.

                    3. The civil society which we now enjoy is based largely on the achievements of
                    religious people, such as the Protestant reformation, the abolition of child
                    labour in the wake of the methodist revival, etc.

                    The European countries with least religion, places like France and Belgium, are
                    not notably more civilised than those with more, and for Poland it was the
                    Catholic church, although I am a protestant I have to admit this, that gave the
                    impetus for the roll-back of Soviet power out of Poland and out of other parts
                    of central Europe.

                    I suppose you leftist atheist would rather they were still here.
                • usenetposts Re: Uncle!!! 24.05.04, 11:33
                  chickenshorts napisał:

                  > Uncle, where are you? I need your guiding wisdom! These are my problems:
                  >
                  > Number 1: I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in
                  her
                  > menstrual uncleanness (Lev. 15v.19- 33). My problem is how do I tell? Most
                  > women take offence when I ask.

                  If you do, then your problem is that you will need to take a bath and be
                  considered unclean until the evening. I hope you have a bath after sex anyway,
                  I know I do, and if you have sex in the evening anyway, thyen you won't have
                  long to wait before being ritually clean again and able to enter the temple
                  like the good Levite you obviously are.



                  > Number2: I know that I am not to eat shellfish (Leviticus11.v.10)
                  >
                  > Does this include Lobster? If so the Lord would be very displeased that they
                  > are being caught, cooked and eaten around the world.

                  You mustn't eat shellfish and be an Old Testament priest at the same time.
                  Whether lobsters are included I know not, but I do know from Peter's vision in
                  Acts that we are able to eat them as Christians now.

                  >
                  > Number 3: I know that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but
                  may
                  >
                  > I still play football if I wear gloves or can my relatives still have their
                  > heart operations and receive a pigs valve?
                  >

                  As a Levite in training for the old israelite Tabernacle, I would leave pigs
                  very much alone. Try and have your valves off a chimp or an orang-utan, after
                  all, you as an evolutionist should believe these animals much more related than
                  pigs.

                  For Christians, however, you can use the body parts of a pig for all not sexual
                  purposes, but I would advise humane treatment of the animal during its life and
                  a humane killing.

                  > Number 4 Most of my male friends, including myself, cut their hair and
                  beards,
                  > even though it is expressly forbidden by Lev.19 v.27. How should we die? How
                  > can I, once dead, stop the guy in morque from shaving me?

                  Carry a card stating that you have taken a Nazaritic vow, and your chances of
                  remaining intact are good.

                  > Number 5: A friend of mine has a farm. He violates Lev.19 v.19 by planting
                  two
                  > different seeds in one field and his family wear garments made of two
                  different
                  >
                  > kinds of thread (linen & wool). What shall we do with them?

                  Give him the gospel, as the law it appears he's not too good at keeping.

                  > He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we
                  get
                  > the whole town out to stone him? ( Lev.24 v10-16) Couldn’t we just burn t
                  > hem at
                  > a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?
                  > (Lev.20 v.14)
                  >

                  You could. Or you could just give them the gospel.
                  It might be more loving, especially as Jesus died to wash them of their
                  blasphemies if they will but accept him.


                  > Number 6: A number of us work on the Sabbath Exodus 35 v.2 clearly states
                  that
                  > we should be put to death. Who is morally obligated to kill us?
                  >
                  > If you don't help, uncle davey, who will?...
                  >

                  I'm not helping kill anyone. The letter killeth, as Paul says, but the spirit
                  giveth life.

                  This means that you have discovered that it is impossible to keep the standard
                  of holiness required by God in the pre-Gospel dispensation. That is why now (as
                  then in fact) we need a blood sacrifice to put us right in God's sight.

                  But the blood of lambs is no longer of relevance, because this was just a
                  representation of the true Lamb, Jesus. Before Christ was revealed those
                  believing in the blood of the lamb were deemed to have trusted in the Blood of
                  the Lamb.

                  Now that we have the true Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world,
                  the symbolic nature of many things before is made clear, but they were vital as
                  they were a means of grace to people who had not yet heard about Jesus, and
                  today they serve as additional indications that Christ is Messiah.

                  best,

                  Uncle Davey
                  www.usenetposts.com
              • usenetposts Re: uncle davy, the poet 24.05.04, 11:16
                chickenshorts napisał:

                > Uncle! where art thou?!?
                > > (NB. The picture to the right was taken in 1985, this is how I looked when
                > I
                > > wrote this hymn.)
                >
                > Right! It would be very selfish not to share with my folk this:
                >
                > www.usenetposts.com/myhymns.htm
                >
                > and this inspired 'poem' again:
                >
                > > 1.
                > > O Lord, Our God, how great
                > > Thou art, in all the Earth!
                > > How excellent Thy name
                > > Who causedst heaven's birth.
                > > Who hast Thy glory set on high
                > > O Lord, Thy name we magnify.
                > > 2.
                > > Out of the mouths of babes
                > > Thou hast ordained strength
                > > Thine enemies to still
                > > And be avenged at length
                > > Lord, when Thy weak ones cry to Thee
                > > Thou art at hand to set us free.
                > >
                > > 3.
                > > When I consider all
                > > The works Thy hand hath made
                > > The sun, the moon and stars
                > > Whose courses Thou hast laid
                > > Then what is man, that Thou shouldst send
                > > Thine only Son, his soul to mend?
                > >
                > > 4.
                > > Thy mercy unto man
                > > Transcendeth all our thought
                > > Our sins were sore to scan
                > > But Jesus Christ us sought
                > > He bore our curse and misery
                > > In agony on Calvary
                > >
                > > 5.
                > > Because Christ all hath done
                > > We hurry to believe
                > > And bitterly repent
                > > New, holy hearts receive
                > > In filthy rags we did despair
                > > But now Christ's righteousness we wear
                > >
                > > 6.
                > > Redeemed, restored we stand
                > > Thee ever to adore
                > > By grace constrained to love,
                > > We seek to know Thee more
                > > In full assurance of Thy grace
                > > We press to bow before Thy face
                >
                > and now the " very tangential" (sic) to any way of thinking article by a
                > Christian with American dentures:
                > www.usenetposts.com/art8.htm
                > Now, uncle, tell us honestly (ha ha...) what are you cruising here for?...
                > new souls, are Poles considered stupid enough for your Christian lurve?...

                There's no-one so stupid or so intelligent as to be beyond the love of Christ,
                chickenshorts.
                • Gość: Bodzu Re: uncle davy, the poet IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 11:37
                  >There's no-one so stupid or so intelligent as to be beyond the love of Christ.

                  That's very controversial... What about Buddhism, Hinduizm, Islam ... ?
                  Do you think these religions are worse than Christianity (Xianity)?
                  Do you think their prophets: Allah, Siddhartha Gautama (Budda) aren't providing
                  to GOD ???
                  Do you think that's something wrong with these maxims(for example):
                  'To shun all evil.
                  To do good.
                  To purify one's heart.
                  This is the teaching of the Buddhas.'
                  If you think this way - you're wrong. It doesn't matter who you adore - it's
                  important to do good and love other people!!!
                  • usenetposts Re: uncle davy, the poet 24.05.04, 12:00
                    Gość portalu: Bodzu napisał(a):

                    > >There's no-one so stupid or so intelligent as to be beyond the love of Chri
                    > st.
                    >
                    > That's very controversial... What about Buddhism, Hinduizm, Islam ... ?

                    I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with what I said, but it's pretty
                    clear that they don't include Jesus dying for sins in their religion, and that,
                    having heard the gospel that Jesus died for their sins, they reject him.

                    They may say that he was a prophet, as Islam does. They may give some other
                    form of lip service to him, or make him a minor god - Hinduism has many gods.

                    But Jesus didn't die for sin for people to reject that.

                    > Do you think these religions are worse than Christianity (Xianity)?
                    > Do you think their prophets: Allah, Siddhartha Gautama (Budda) aren't
                    >providing

                    > to GOD ???

                    I am sure that they are not.


                    > Do you think that's something wrong with these maxims(for example):
                    > 'To shun all evil.
                    > To do good.
                    > To purify one's heart.
                    > This is the teaching of the Buddhas.'

                    Well, their teaching is at variance with the Bible teaching, then, as it shows
                    that we should purify our hearts, but that we are not able to dop so, and need
                    the grace of God sending his Son to forgive our sins.

                    What answer does Buddha have to someone who discovers that they cannot cleanse
                    their heart?

                    > If you think this way - you're wrong. It doesn't matter who you adore - it's
                    > important to do good and love other people!!!

                    And when we fail, what then? What forgiveness does Buddha or Mohammed offer,
                    and who bought that forgiveness?
                    • Gość: Bodzu Re: uncle davy, the poet IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 12:18
                      I was shocked your lack of tolerance...
                      > > >There's no-one so stupid or so intelligent as to be beyond the love of
                      Christ
                      I place great emphasis on your words "no-one so-stupid", no blind,
                      unconscious... but SO-STUPID!!!
                      That's why I wrote these all things and here is:
                      >>"what that has to do with what I said"
                      I'll write a long post about these two things: faith and religious war because
                      I partly agree with you but in some cases but generally not at all.
                      I'll be back in one hour and then I'll write you my answer to both your
                      preceding posts...
                    • chickenshorts Davey, the missionary... 24.05.04, 13:06
                      Uncle, I didn't touch your rantings until directly invited to read your article
                      which, frankly, got my goat...

                      usenetposts napisał:



                      > Well, their teaching is at variance with the Bible teaching,

                      Bible is an ancient collection of patriarchal injunctions mainly, sparked off
                      by fear of annihilation of some ancient tribe of goat herders and has no place
                      in today's world. It's a sort of Jewish 'Mein Kempf' and nothing more.

                      >...then, as it shows
                      > that we should purify our hearts, but that we are not able to do so, and need
                      > the grace of God sending his Son to forgive our sins.

                      That's entirely a matter of belief... As for me, personally, I think that's
                      where the main problem with Christianity lies. If you believe an act of sending
                      his only son for slaughter to redeem 'sins' of his less perfect creation an act
                      of love, than there is something terribly wrong at the core of this faith...
                      Believe in absurdity helps to commit monstrosity which has been amply
                      demonstrated throughout history of poweful christianity.


                      > What answer does Buddha have to someone who discovers that they cannot
                      cleanse
                      > their heart?

                      Which you clearly demonstrate in your 'controvercial' article. I suspect he
                      would tell you to sit down, relax and stop drivelling...

                      > And when we fail, what then? What forgiveness does Buddha or Mohammed offer,
                      > and who bought that forgiveness?

                      You are an indoctrinated and ignorant man.

                      You seem to take great pleasure and pride in calling me 'leftist'... What do
                      you mean by that term? I am neither an atheist nor any other -ist, a
                      socialist/communist...

                      • Gość: Bodzu Re: Davey, the missionary... IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 13:28
                        I agree with you. I don't know if you saw Martin Scorsese's film "The last
                        temptation of the Christ". In my opinion that's better film than "Passion of
                        the Christ". Xianity, priests are wrong insisting on suffering and death of
                        God's son. That was the most stupid thing which human race could do - to kill
                        their God, isn't that funny ? There is no point in glorifying Someone's death.
                        People, what for, do you think, Jesus died ? To adore his name and his death?
                        To pray rosary and to go on the Way of the Cross ? No, in my opinion that's
                        misunderstanding. He came to teach us how to live in better way... And what ?
                        2000 years went past and people aren't even a bit better than in Jesus times!!!
                        The fights against each other, murders, rapes, robberies, and many, many things
                        like that. We have only new better toys as computers, cars, planes...
                        But there's no changing in thinking... And people are intolerant. They don't
                        realize that we don't have to pray all the time but what is important - DEEDS
                        not WORDS (people don't pray all the time instead of helping each other)!!!
                      • usenetposts Re: Davey, the missionary... 24.05.04, 15:51
                        chickenshorts napisał:

                        > Uncle, I didn't touch your rantings until directly invited to read your
                        article
                        >
                        > which, frankly, got my goat...

                        I'm not surprised.

                        >
                        > usenetposts napisał:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > > Well, their teaching is at variance with the Bible teaching,
                        >
                        > Bible is an ancient collection of patriarchal injunctions mainly, sparked off
                        > by fear of annihilation of some ancient tribe of goat herders and has no
                        place
                        > in today's world. It's a sort of Jewish 'Mein Kempf' and nothing more.

                        That's what you think.

                        >
                        > >...then, as it shows
                        > > that we should purify our hearts, but that we are not able to do so, and n
                        > eed
                        > > the grace of God sending his Son to forgive our sins.
                        >
                        > That's entirely a matter of belief... As for me, personally, I think that's
                        > where the main problem with Christianity lies. If you believe an act of
                        sending
                        >
                        > his only son for slaughter to redeem 'sins' of his less perfect creation an
                        act
                        >
                        > of love, than there is something terribly wrong at the core of this faith...
                        > Believe in absurdity helps to commit monstrosity which has been amply
                        > demonstrated throughout history of poweful christianity.
                        >
                        >

                        The monstrosities which so-called Christianity has committed have arisen from
                        its being diverted from core beliefs onto political concerns.

                        > > What answer does Buddha have to someone who discovers that they cannot
                        > cleanse
                        > > their heart?
                        >
                        > Which you clearly demonstrate in your 'controvercial' article. I suspect he
                        > would tell you to sit down, relax and stop drivelling...
                        >

                        I'm not the one with a head covered in snails.

                        > > And when we fail, what then? What forgiveness does Buddha or Mohammed offe
                        > r,
                        > > and who bought that forgiveness?
                        >
                        > You are an indoctrinated and ignorant man.
                        >

                        You wouldn't even be qualified to make that judgement.

                        And why make an ad hominem when there is an issue to be addressed?


                        > You seem to take great pleasure and pride in calling me 'leftist'... What do
                        > you mean by that term? I am neither an atheist nor any other -ist, a
                        > socialist/communist...
                        >

                        Glad to hear it.

                        So why write like one, then?

                        best,

                        Uncle Davey
                        www.usenetposts.com
                    • Gość: Bodzu Re: uncle davy, the poet IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 13:41
                      You don' tell that Xianity has a monopoly on the truth. That's the way to GOD
                      as good as any diffrent assuming that people should help each other, be good!!!
                      And I don't agree that only Catholics gain salvation... I think that anyone who
                      will help fellowmen (other people) after death will be in heaven. But i won't
                      decide about it, you won't also - that's why - my advice: more humility!!! Only
                      God knows who will be with him in heaven. And you don't know that if there'll
                      be Muslims, Jews, Catholics and the others. You don't choose these people
                      that's why you shouldn't judge them. "Don't judge so that you wouldn't be
                      judged". I have a lesson for you: BE MORE TOLERANT and DON'T JUDGE!!!
                      • usenetposts Re: uncle davy, the poet 24.05.04, 16:00
                        Gość portalu: Bodzu napisał(a):

                        > You don' tell that Xianity has a monopoly on the truth. That's the way to GOD
                        > as good as any diffrent assuming that people should help each other, be
                        good!!!
                        > And I don't agree that only Catholics gain salvation... I think that anyone
                        who
                        >
                        > will help fellowmen (other people) after death will be in heaven. But i won't
                        > decide about it, you won't also - that's why - my advice: more humility!!!
                        Only
                        >
                        > God knows who will be with him in heaven. And you don't know that if there'll
                        > be Muslims, Jews, Catholics and the others. You don't choose these people
                        > that's why you shouldn't judge them. "Don't judge so that you wouldn't be
                        > judged". I have a lesson for you: BE MORE TOLERANT and DON'T JUDGE!!!


                        I'm not judging them, all I'm saying is that according to the Bible we all need
                        to accept Christ for salvation.

                        There is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved.

                        best,

                        Uncle Davey
                        www.usenetposts.com
                        • Gość: Bodzu Re: uncle davy, the poet IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 16:38
                          Ok, you are an orthodox. I'm not convince you of my truth because I don't want
                          to do it. I'm tolerant and I'm respect other views. I think that everyone
                          should have his own truth and be in agreement with his own consious. That's why
                          I respect your point of view. But I have my own opinion which I've tried to
                          give it to you. But you don't need to agree and change your mind. I tell you
                          only few words: Love the other people even if they are Muslims, Jews nad other
                          religion. It doesn't matter - they are equally God's children - I think so.
                          Be tolerant and love them like other brothers and sisters in faith (Catholics)!
          • usenetposts Re: - america unmasked 24.05.04, 11:01
            chickenshorts napisał:

            >
            > > usenetposts napisał:
            > >
            > > > I just know ...
            >
            > Sorry, uncle, for being so harsh... eearly morning and all that...
            >
            > You are just a salesman, a businessman in the insurance business... Oh, you
            > have no shame. I used to do that (with success) when I was young and foolish
            > but at least what I peddled was what most people really needed - a policy
            that
            > would cover the cost of burial.
            >
            > Uncle's business is selling a policy against eternity in hell... well, well...
            >
            > "Why Join OCCM?
            > There are many, great reasons to join OCCM and here are some of them.
            >
            > 1. Membership with OCCM gives you a 100 word advertisement for your
            ministry.
            > Our web sites receive thousands of visits each month and your ad (preferably
            > written by you) will drive this traffic to your web site
            >
            > (having more people p r a y for your ministry, i n v e s t in your ministry,
            > etc.). This advertisement will stay on OCCM for your entire, lifetime
            > membership, making this alone a significant reason for membership."...
            >
            > pay and pray ...
            >
            >

            You seem to have a problem with this, but it's no different to systems that
            give more traffic to other types of website.

            You just think that sites which have religion in ought not to have paid
            promotional systems?

            Well, let me tell you this, I earn my money, it's mine, and I'm not having any
            leftist lacky of the beast telling me whether I can shell out 25 dollars on a
            promotional system for my site or not.
        • usenetposts Re: Abu Ghraib - america unmasked 24.05.04, 10:57
          chickenshorts napisał:

          > usenetposts napisał:
          >
          > > I just know you're gonna love it.
          > >
          > > best,
          > >
          > > Uncle Davey
          > > www.usenetposts.com
          >
          > christianity with dentures?
          >
          > unless you mean 'rotten teeth' but you are too vain to show them...
          >
          > not ever return to teeth, uncle. the times of Innocent are over!
          >
          > In return gesture and very much in gentleman-ly fashion, I am sending you an
          > article by Polly Toynbee:
          > www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,787075,00.html

          Polly Toynbee is a noted wibberal.

          She thinks religion kills.

          The biggest wars in the world have had nothing to do with religion.

          And a lot to do with atheism or lack of religion.


          >
          > PS. Can't quite fathom whetther you are a clown or plain idiot?


          If I'm a believer I have to be one or the other, right?
          • Gość: Bodzu Re: Abu Ghraib - america unmasked IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 11:27
            > The biggest wars in the world have had nothing to do with religion.

            Here you are wrong. Crusades was caused by religious motives. And even '15th
            July 1410' is a good example of battle with religious basis (Knigts of the
            Cross). And what about the Inquisition... I'm a Roman Catholic but I am ashamed
            of this period... :-(
            • usenetposts Re: Abu Ghraib - america unmasked 24.05.04, 11:52
              Gość portalu: Bodzu napisał(a):

              > > The biggest wars in the world have had nothing to do with religion.
              >
              > Here you are wrong. Crusades was caused by religious motives. And even '15th
              > July 1410' is a good example of battle with religious basis (Knigts of the
              > Cross). And what about the Inquisition... I'm a Roman Catholic but I am
              ashamed
              >
              > of this period... :-(

              It did have a religious flavour, but in reality the Catholic Church was all
              about politics at that time, and it still can't seem to get back into purely
              salvation-related matters and keep out of political issues.

              I as an individual believer can have all sort of political opinions the same as
              every individual can but I wouldn't expect the Church in toto to agree on the
              same political opinions, nor to put earthly power or laws to affect the
              behaviour of unbelievers above the goal of demonstrating to them Christ as
              saviour.

              The crusades were a difficult period, but they were essentially a reaction by
              people who didn't want to be forced into Islam against the military power of
              Islam. If you look at how Islam was propagated in its early period you'll see
              the difference between that and how our religion was spread at the start. These
              caliphs weren't hiding in caves painting secret fish signs, they were out on
              horseback waving swords around in well organised military cells. That's why the
              sword is their symbol to this day.

              The countries which are Islamic today were conquered by force, the countries
              which are not Islamic today are the ones which were not conquered by force, and
              all along the boundary there was armed conflict between us and them. Had we not
              fought, we would have died. Just like today we will have to maintain military
              supremacy over the Islamic world, because the day they get military supremacy
              over us, they are programmed to use it.

              As it is all they can do is terrorise, and shout all their bluster at us over
              satellite television.
              • Gość: Bodzu Re: Abu Ghraib - america unmasked IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 13:03
                That's very sad what you've said...
                >>"Had we not fought, we would have died. Just like today we will have to
                >>maintain military supremacy over the Islamic world, because the day they get
                >>military supremacy over us, they are programmed to use it."
                Some people say that we could prevent II World War if some countries (England,
                France,...)attacked Germany in 1938/1939 when Hitler annexed the Karpaty
                Mountains (Sudety)...
                And it would be a fair war... in self-defence!!!
                But I don't agree with conception of fair or justified war... All wars are
                horrible!!!
                Jesus said that if someone give you a slap on one cheek you should present him
                the other.
                If you listen to carefully what Jesus said you don't write in your posts
                that 'Had we not fought, we would have died'. I agree that we must fight
                against invaders but here there's no any of Jesus's teaching..., don't you ?
                That's difficult to me 'cause I think that if people used teaching of Jesus in
                their lives they would be happy, it wouldn't be wars but that's not in human
                race nature...
                Many people prefer Nietzsche philosophy than Jesus teaching. So was Hitler!!!
                And now we have new the biggest terrorist on the world: George Bush!!! I don't
                accept wars preventive only defensive... But if people studied philosophy and
                religious it wouldn't be wars on condition that they would understand what they
                read...
                • usenetposts Re: Abu Ghraib - america unmasked 24.05.04, 16:05
                  Gość portalu: Bodzu napisał(a):

                  > That's very sad what you've said...
                  > >>"Had we not fought, we would have died. Just like today we will have to
                  >
                  > >>maintain military supremacy over the Islamic world, because the day the
                  > y get
                  > >>military supremacy over us, they are programmed to use it."
                  > Some people say that we could prevent II World War if some countries
                  (England,
                  > France,...)attacked Germany in 1938/1939 when Hitler annexed the Karpaty
                  > Mountains (Sudety)...
                  > And it would be a fair war... in self-defence!!!
                  > But I don't agree with conception of fair or justified war... All wars are
                  > horrible!!!
                  > Jesus said that if someone give you a slap on one cheek you should present
                  him
                  > the other.
                  > If you listen to carefully what Jesus said you don't write in your posts
                  > that 'Had we not fought, we would have died'. I agree that we must fight
                  > against invaders but here there's no any of Jesus's teaching..., don't you ?
                  > That's difficult to me 'cause I think that if people used teaching of Jesus
                  in
                  > their lives they would be happy, it wouldn't be wars but that's not in human
                  > race nature...
                  > Many people prefer Nietzsche philosophy than Jesus teaching. So was Hitler!!!
                  > And now we have new the biggest terrorist on the world: George Bush!!! I
                  don't
                  > accept wars preventive only defensive... But if people studied philosophy and
                  > religious it wouldn't be wars on condition that they would understand what
                  they
                  >
                  > read...

                  You talk about presenting the other cheek, but this has nothing to do with just
                  war. If I fail to fight a just war, I am not turning my cheek I am turning
                  other people's cheeks for them. Jesus neither instructs me, nor even gives me
                  the right to turn other people's cheeks for them.

                  The people who didn't want to remove Saddam Hussein were turning the cheeks of
                  his torture victims, not their own cheeks.

                  Your line of argument is purely sentimentalist, and has no genuine moral fiber.

                  best,

                  Uncle Davey
                  www.usenetposts.com
                  • Gość: Bodzu Re: Abu Ghraib - america unmasked IP: *.crowley.pl 24.05.04, 16:24
                    Yes, I agree with you! I know that people must defend their truth, religion,
                    laws, but defend not ATTACK. If people only fought a case in self-defence it
                    would be very good because there were no wars because every one wouldn't attack
                    and only defend. In this case we don't have any enemies. Because people fight
                    with each other we don't have heaven on earth. If we studied and used teaching
                    of Jesus it could be here almost heaven (with our medicine, technics... but now
                    through these achievements we slowly build a new Tower of Babel - these
                    achievements like nuclear weapons, bacterial and chemical weapons and many,
                    many more it could destroy us any minute now). But I am an optimist ;-) I
                    believe in mankind despite all our weakness, sins... ;-)))
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