When you asked me did I realise that, I...

15.02.05, 00:06
[Inspiration from Słaby's thread.]

This sentence would be instantly dismissed as ungrammatical in any serious
test.
BUT - should it be?
This form, and not "whether I realised" is, to my knowledge, increasingly
heard from educated native speakers of English, and unless I'm mistaken, of
both AmE and BrE.
What are your opinions?
    • Gość: ms jones Re: When you asked me did I realise that, I... IP: *.range81-157.btcentralplus.com 15.02.05, 00:19
      I'm sure it's in common use. Or, grammatically kosher, 'When you asked me if I
      realised that ...

      I'd always use 'weather' in written language though.
      • Gość: axxolotl Re: When you asked me did I realise that, I... IP: *.marketscore.com / 66.119.33.* 15.02.05, 00:28
        > I'd always use 'weather' in written language though.

        Do you really??
        So, what's the weather like in the UK?
        ;);)
        • Gość: ms jones Re: When you asked me did I realise that, I... IP: *.range81-157.btcentralplus.com 15.02.05, 00:41
          How did that happen??
          I don't know WHETHER to laugh or cry.

          But I am very pleased to see YOU have sorted out YOUR punctuation.

          I was just reading fragments of 'Eats, shoots and leaves' - a book on
          punctuation. There some hilarious things in it eg:

          Isn’t the analogy with good manners perfect? Truly good manners are invisible:
          they ease the way for others, without drawing attention to themselves. It is no
          accident that the word “punctilious” (“attentive to formality or etiquette”)
          comes from the same original root word as punctuation. As we shall see, the
          practice of “pointing” our writing has always been offered in a spirit of
          helpfulness, to underline meaning and prevent awkward misunderstandings between
          writer and reader. In 1644 a schoolmaster from Southwark, Richard Hodges, wrote
          in his The English Primrose that “great care ought to be had in writing, for
          the due observing of points: for, the neglect thereof will pervert the sense”,
          and he quoted as an example, “My Son, if sinners intise [entice] thee consent
          thou, not refraining thy foot from their way.” Imagine the difference to the
          sense, he says, if you place the comma after the word “not”: “My Son, if
          sinners intise thee consent thou not, refraining thy foot from their way.” This
          was the 1644 equivalent of Ronnie Barker in Porridge, reading the sign-off from
          a fellow lag’s letter from home, “Now I must go and get on my lover”, and then
          pretending to notice a comma, so hastily changing it to, “Now I must go and get
          on, my lover.”

          To be fair, many people who couldn’t punctuate their way out of a paper bag are
          still interested in the way punctuation can alter the sense of a string of
          words. It is the basis of all “I’m sorry, I’ll read that again” jokes. Instead
          of “What would you with the king?” you can have someone say in Marlowe’s Edward
          II, “What? Would you? With the king?” The consequences of mispunctuation (and
          re-punctuation) have appealed to both great and little minds, and in the age of
          the fancy-that email a popular example is the comparison of two sentences:

          A woman, without her man, is nothing.
          A woman: without her, man is nothing.

          Which, I don’t know, really makes you think, doesn’t it? Here is a
          popular “Dear Jack” letter that works in much the same fundamentally pointless
          way:

          Dear Jack,
          I want a man who knows what love is all about. You are generous, kind,
          thoughtful. People who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior.
          You have ruined me for other men. I yearn for you. I have no feelings
          whatsoever when we’re apart. I can be forever happy – will you let me be yours?
          Jill

          Dear Jack,
          I want a man who knows what love is. All about you are generous, kind,
          thoughtful people, who are not like you. Admit to being useless and inferior.
          You have ruined me. For other men I yearn! For you I have no feelings
          whatsoever. When we’re apart I can be forever happy. Will you let me be?
          Yours,
          Jill

          But just to show there is nothing very original about all this, five hundred
          years before email a similarly tiresome puzzle was going round:

          Every Lady in this Land
          Hath 20 Nails on each Hand;
          Five & twenty on Hands and Feet;
          And this is true, without deceit.
          (Every lady in this land has twenty nails. On each hand, five; and twenty on
          hands and feet.)

    • Gość: Yorick Any more opinions? IP: 213.238.127.* 18.02.05, 03:11
      Folks, I'm serious :).

      Many thanks for the replies so far, but I'd like to hear some more voices.
      rgdz
      • chickenshorts Re: When you asked me did I realise that... 18.02.05, 07:44
        Gość portalu: Yorick napisał(a):

        > Folks, I'm serious :).

        ...a voice from academe! How serious is 'serious'next to ':)'?


        > Many thanks for the replies so far, but I'd like to hear some more voices.
        > rgdz

        OK! a voice (in the wilderness, necessarily) 'instructs' me to suggest the
        following explanation, most plausible, IMO, for the spread of the above form:
        it was the badly educated, the foreingers that sowed the 'bad' seed but it fell
        on the fertile ground, thirsty for 'freshness' an 'originality'...

        How to go about it? Lightly. Use it if you like it...

        > This sentence would be instantly dismissed as ungrammatical in any serious
        > test.

        What about a less serious test?

        > BUT - should it be?

        Should? hmm...
        Yes, it should for as long as it isn't widely accepted which it isn't...

        On the other hand, I see much more serious 'abuse' of language elswhere...
        In a growing tendency to redefine certain basic meanings, for instance!

        On my recent visit to Poland I had the opportunity to WATCH a debate (on TV),
        the topic of which was 'Responsibility for Word'... A very inviting title! The
        debaters, the pillars of Polish academe... No, I can't!
        They debated the sacredness of the Word. They used TV air to argue in all
        seriousness 'God's word' as opposed to mere human word and our irresponsibility
        with the use of the former...

        Serious? This is serious!

        Or, redefining 'torture' as 'enhanced interrogation technique'

        Debating sloppy grammar is just a doodle, it isn't serious...

        • yoric Re: When you asked me did I realise that... 18.02.05, 14:32
          < Yes, it should for as long as it isn't widely accepted which it isn't...

          Thanks for the reply!

          ;)
        • Gość: ms jones Re: When you asked me did I realise that... IP: *.range81-157.btcentralplus.com 18.02.05, 23:30
          a debate (on TV),
          > the topic of which was 'Responsibility for Word'... A very inviting title!
          The
          > debaters, the pillars of Polish academe... No, I can't!
          > They debated the sacredness of the Word. They used TV air to argue in all
          > seriousness 'God's word' as opposed to mere human word and our
          irresponsibility
          >
          > with the use of the former...

          I'd say to these guys that God (the one and only creator of the universe) has
          to take some of the blame for the apparent inconsistency in conveying his Word
          to his people ie the Jews, Christians, Muslims and the Sikhs who all believe in
          one God.
        • Gość: ms jones Re: When you asked me did I realise that... IP: *.range81-157.btcentralplus.com 18.02.05, 23:42
          > Yes, it should for as long as it isn't widely accepted which it isn't...

          I don't know about widely accepted but wherever it has come from, it has - as
          you say - fallen on fertile ground and it is commonly used. Here's a couple of
          examples; they sound perfectly natural to me and reflect how people speak:

          I was interviewed by Counselling News a while back, and the interviewer asked
          me did I realise that I wrote about people who don't have a voice in society. I
          didn't realise, but I guess she was right; I write about what I care about."

          Been to GP's this afternoon and managed to wheedle a prescription from him for
          the heparin, he said to me did I realise how much it was costing the NHS so I
          said did he realise how much it cost me

          • chickenshorts Re: When you asked me did I realise that... 19.02.05, 08:17
            Gość portalu: ms jones napisał(a):

            > Here's a couple of
            > examples; they sound perfectly natural to me<

            Fine! Take it lightly. That was my point! Even use it if you like it.

            > and reflect how people speak:

            > "I was interviewed by Counselling News a while back, and the interviewer
            asked
            > me did I realise that I wrote about people who don't have a voice in society.
            >I didn't realise, but I guess she was right; I write about what I care about."

            My immediate reaction was one of deep compassion... I was ready to suspend...
            Well, yah know... Must've been that word 'care'. "Oh, I thought, sounds like
            the Guardian's very 'own' Polly Toynbee."

            Thankfully, it didn't last. I'm very emotional...

            Anyway, back to the English language - you know the rule (it may change, of
            course). If it's not a question (direct question), don't employ interrogative
            form.

            OK, suppose you were a teacher checking English essays. Would you accept it?...

            "When you asked me did I realise that..."



            • yoric Re: When you asked me did I realise that... 19.02.05, 13:26
              > OK, suppose you were a teacher checking English essays. Would you accept
              it?...
              >
              > "When you asked me did I realise that..."

              Nope.
              Now you're a teacher, and during a conversation class (1st year Eng Phil
              students) somebody says:
              > "When you asked me did I realise that..."

              Would you correct them? :)
              • chickenshorts Re: When you asked me did I realise that... 19.02.05, 18:31
                yoric napisał:

                > somebody says:
                > > "When you asked me did I realise that..."

                > Would you correct them? :)

                Assuming this body was yours or Ms Jones', I wouldn't bat an eyelid. But if it
                was wacko, I would go full throttle for his jugular!

                > Now you're a teacher, and during a conversation class (1st year Eng Phil
                > students) somebody says:
                > > "When you asked me did I realise that..."
                > Would you correct them? :)

                Absolutely! That's what a teacher is paid to do, no?...

                PS. I should've put ":)" up there somewhere, I guess, but I thought we were
                just too sophisticated... :)
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