free as a bird or like a bird?

[Gość: Monika]

Witam,

jak prawidłowo brzmi porównanie wolny jak ptak? :
1) "free as a bird"
or
2) "free like a bird"?

Regards

Monika

[Gość: Wojtek]

Gość portalu: Monika napisał(a):

> Witam,
>
> jak prawidłowo brzmi porównanie wolny jak ptak? :
> 1) "free as a bird"
> or
> 2) "free like a bird"?
>
> Regards
>
> Monika

Free as a bird! You can fly like a bird but you are free as a bird.

[Gość: Monika]

Are you sure?
Have you heard the song with words"like a Rollinstonse...?
What is your opinion, should they say in that way?

Regards
Monika

[beciab]

Well, but there's a song "Free as a bird" as well :)
It's certainly "as a"...You might say she walks like a cat, he flies like a
bird...but adjectives+nouns usually go with "as".

[Gość: Wojtek]

Well, I know what you mean, Monika. Let's wait and see what majority of
posters think about it.

[Gość: Wojtek]

Hi, again,
after a bit of reflecting and a glimpse at Google I am now changing my
position and restating it as:

You are free like a bird. This, I think is much safer and certainly NOT WRONG.
Sorry for my first misleading post.

beciab,

I believe that it is better to use 'as' in this: "He drinks as they do in
Scotland" but 3Ne drinks like a Scott."

[Gość: Monika]

Hi Adalbert,

what you mean by:"3Ne"?
Ans thanx for your answer :-))

Monika

[Gość: Wojtek]

Gość portalu: Monika napisał(a):

> Hi Adalbert,
>
> what you mean by:"3Ne"?
> Ans thanx for your answer :-))
>
> Monika

3Ne meant "He" just like your "Ans" tried to be "And" - a typing error.

[amatorski]

I've heard both versions in songs ('free as a bird' by a Brit and 'free like a
bird' by a German). This means everything or nothing.
Anyway: Songs are the best source of native blunders. You may quote me ;-)

[Gość: kluba1]

Free like a bird !!!!!

[Gość: Bert]

Try not to leave out the first "as" and the problem will
be gone, most likely;
(as) good as gold, (as) obstinate as a mule, (as) sober
as a judge, (as) like as two drops of water, (as) free as
a bird.

[beciab]

I tried to check it on the web as I was a bit confused by your answers. I still
think that you should say "<as> free as a bird", not "like a bird".
You might say "He is like a snake" but "trustworthy as a snake".

[Gość: Bert]

My sincere apologies for being confusing.
In principle, you are absolutely right. Your "He is like
a snake", "He is as trustworthy as a snake" are good
examples of standard formal writing. However, if writing
is a record of an informal conversation or lyrics, all
bets are off. I think it is the informality that causes
confusion. Having said that, why screw up the language on
purpose? There are many other similes based on the
as...as structure; they are used frequently (overused?)
and, I think, they sound awkward when corrupted in
conversation.

P.S. "like a bird" means with no difficulty, with no
hesitation. Do you know Leonard Cohen?s "Like a bird on a
wire"?

Like a bird on a wire
Like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way
to be free...

No grammar complaints here. Agreed?

[gudrun]

Free like a bird. It's a question of grammar: prepositon "like" is followed by
a noun or a pronoun, conjunction "as" by a clause.

[Gość: Bert]

"(I am as) free as a bird" is standard, at least in
formal writing, with the ADVERBIAL "as...as". That's
elementary, Watson. People say and sing all kinds of
strange stuff, just like me right now.

[Gość: sisi]

gudrun napisała:

> Free like a bird. It's a question of grammar: prepositon "like" is followed
by
>
> a noun or a pronoun, conjunction "as" by a clause.
I must disagree here. Don't know what grammar you mean, but how about:
She is working as a waitress. What clause is that???
Then we've got the informal:
Like I said before, .... - isn't it a clause now?

[Gość: Wojtek]

'like' is placed before nouns/pronouns in the simple types of comparison:
"He fought like a madman" , but if the noun/pronoun is followed immediately by
a verb, ie. if there is a clause of comprison, 'as' should be used: "when in
Rome, do as the Romans do"
'as can also be used with a noun alone, but there is a difference in meaning:
"He worked as a slave" = he was a slave
"He worked like a slave" = he worked very hard
"he used his umbrella as a weapon" = he defended/attacked with it.

source: A.J.Thomson and A.V.Martinet 'English Grammar' 2nd ed.

[Gość: nat]

Off hand, I would think it's like that;
VERB + LIKE
He fought like a lion
She eats like a horse
It'll work like a dream

ADJECTIVE/ADVERB + AS + ADJECTIVE/ADVERB +AS
He's as brave as a lion
She's as fat as a pig
He's as good as gold


.... (?) like a rolling stone?

[gudrun]

Gość portalu: sisi napisał(a):

> gudrun napisała:
>
> > Free like a bird. It's a question of grammar: prepositon "like" is follow
> ed
> by
> >
> > a noun or a pronoun, conjunction "as" by a clause.
> I must disagree here. Don't know what grammar you mean, but how about:
> She is working as a waitress. What clause is that???
> Then we've got the informal:
> Like I said before, .... - isn't it a clause now?

When we use "as" and "like" for comparison. "As" may have different meaning
like in the example given by you. She works as a waitress means that this is
her job (she is a waitres) We don't compare here anything. She works like a
waitress implies that it is not her job. She simply does similar activities.

[Gość: Mr. T]

Gość portalu: Monika napisał(a):

> Witam,
>
> jak prawidłowo brzmi porównanie wolny jak ptak? :
> 1) "free as a bird"
> or
> 2) "free like a bird"?
>
> Regards
>
> Monika

I would use "free like a bird".
I think it's more casual and matches polish equivalent more closely.

Also, see Nelly Furtado's song: "I'm Like a Bird"

[beciab]

But the sentence "I am like a bird" is so much different from "free <in my
humble opininion> as a bird". For there is this "free" and it changes
everything. However, I'm not English and so I might be wrong.

[Gość: Bert]

> I would use "free like a bird".
Growing your own wings?

> I think it's more casual
So what?

>and matches polish equivalent more closely.
So what?

> Also, see Nelly Furtado's song: "I'm Like a Bird"
Why not just listen to it?

[Gość: Wojtek]

So, which is better in your opinion, Bert, 'I'm free like a bird' or 'I'm free
as a bird'?

[Gość: Bert]

"I am as free as a bird", with the first "as" very much
in there, unless you have your own justified ideas.

[mouchi]

Gość portalu: Wojtek napisał(a):

> So, which is better in your opinion, Bert, 'I'm free like a bird' or 'I'm
free
>
> as a bird'?

"I'm free like a bird" is not better it is the only CORRECT version.
:0)

[Gość: Wojtek]

Well, as far as I am concerned it is quite a claim to say "I am as free as a
bird", a statement of impossibility, really, whereas to say "I am free like a
bird" is an indication as to how I feel; to say "I am free as a bird" befits
only talking birds. What would you say to that?

[Gość: Mr. T]

Gość portalu: Wojtek napisał(a):

> Well, as far as I am concerned it is quite a claim to say "I am as free as a
> bird", a statement of impossibility, really, whereas to say "I am free like a
> bird" is an indication as to how I feel; to say "I am free as a bird" befits
> only talking birds. What would you say to that?

Well said. I agree 100%

[Gość: Bert]

Gość portalu: Wojtek napisał(a):

> Well, as far as I am concerned it is quite a claim to
say "I am as free as a
> bird", a statement of impossibility, really,
Mr. Wojtek, why? It is a simile (a metaphor), remember?
After taking a shower I am as clean as a whistle. Does it
mean I am a whistle? Do I have to be a whistle to be clean?

whereas to say "I am free like a
> bird" is an indication as to how I feel;
Mr. Wojtek, why? How come you see the feeling of freedom
in this case only? Again, it is a simile.


to say "I am free as a bird" befits
> only talking birds. What would you say to that?
Mr. Wojtek, again, why? It does not say you are a talking
bird. The first "as" is missing, that's all. A lazy
bugger left it out! "As a bird" does not mean "I am a bird".

[mouchi]

Gość portalu: Bert napisał(a):

> Gość portalu: Wojtek napisał(a):
>
> > Well, as far as I am concerned it is quite a claim to
> say "I am as free as a
> > bird", a statement of impossibility, really,
> Mr. Wojtek, why? It is a simile (a metaphor), remember?
> After taking a shower I am as clean as a whistle. Does it
> mean I am a whistle? Do I have to be a whistle to be clean?
>
> whereas to say "I am free like a
> > bird" is an indication as to how I feel;
> Mr. Wojtek, why? How come you see the feeling of freedom
> in this case only? Again, it is a simile.
>
>
> to say "I am free as a bird" befits
> > only talking birds. What would you say to that?
> Mr. Wojtek, again, why? It does not say you are a talking
> bird. The first "as" is missing, that's all. A lazy
> bugger left it out!


"As a bird" does not mean "I am a bird".
>in fact, it does
>

No, it does not

[Gość: Bert]

> "As a bird" does not mean "I am a bird".
> >in fact, it does

With all due respect, I beg to differ.

Boobie decided to go to the costume party dresses up as a
monkey. I looked upon her as an idiot. Her brownish
slacks and dark jacket would never pass as a monkey suit.
"Use your ski pants as a top instead", I said.

[Gość: Monika]

Hello everybody,

I'm sure that one should say "as a bird" (I have asked my teacher native
speaker .... greetings to Paul :-))

Monika

[Gość: Wojtek]

Monika, dear, unless it was your birdie saying 'I'm free as a bird',
your "teacher" is talking bollocks. If I were you, I'd ask for the money back.
I really mean it!

[Gość: Wojtek]

... or, maybe, not...

as free as a bird

[Gość: Bert]

To add some more confusion to the as/like conflict I
would venture to say that in formal academic writing even
the verb/like configuration may be iffy. For example, the
well-known classic simile "My love is like a red, red
rose" makes you pause to think. What characteristics of
the red rose did the author mean to compare to his love?
That's poetically enigmatic.
Academic writing abhors ambiguity, but even the purist
will not object to "Oh, country girls, cheeks like roses,
bosom like peaches..." Here the "things sitting" on both
sides of each of the two "likes" are nicely balanced.
Comparisons should be balanced; potentially, the
verb/like structure is not, the "as...as" is. Why would
you skip the first "as" in the "as...as?

[Gość: Wojtek]

Dear Mr Bert, Sir,
I honestly feel this f****** bird gor much too much attention, surely more than
it deserves. My simple answer to all your "Whys" from an earler post would be
simple: because that's how I hear it. ... As free AS... sounds to me too heavy
on quality. Having said that, I am stiil not 100% comfortable with the '...
free like...' answer, but more than 'as'. I wish, somebody showed a link to a
definitive answer to this particular case with a bird.
Regards.

as a bird -f or Adalbert primarily

[Gość: Monika]

Dear Adalbert,

are you sure your version of "like a bird"?

So I will have to as my another friends (it doesn't mean that I don't believe
you but I want to have another versions for using it, even I believe to Paul...)
What you mean by using:
1)birdie
2)bollocks

Monika


Ps."If I were you, I'd ask for the money back"- it's not polite...
But for your information they will give me money back if I failed my FCI d:-}
> I really mean it!

[Gość: Wojtek]

Not sure of anything anymore!

birdie = a bird
bollocks? Can't tell you, a bit rude, unappropriate for young girls.

[Gość: Monika]

Hi,

belive me I'm much more curious about "bollocks"

Monika

[Gość: Wojtek]

Gość portalu: Monika napisał(a):

> Hi,
>
> belive me I'm much more curious about "bollocks"
>
> Monika


www.thebollocks.com/

[beciab]

www.dictionary.com
The last is the best :>

[Gość: Wojtek]

What exactly were you trying to say?

www.dictionary.com/doctor/faq/l/like-as.html

[Gość: maggie7]

[Gość: Bert]

Maggie7, what did you say?

I took a poll. :)

[Gość: maggie7]

That's what I wanted to say :) Didn't work the first time :)



When asked which sentence is correct "Free as a bird" or "Free like a bird", 10
out 10 Americans answered "Free as a bird."

No explanation was given, though.

So does it solve our problem?

Take care :)

[Gość: Bert]

Maggie7, what about the first "as" in the "as...as"?
Best regards.

[Gość: maggie7]

well, I don't have those 10 Americans at hand right now :) The one American I
have, though, is relaxing on the sofa and getting pretty annoyed by me asking
all those questions.

But here's what he said:
I'm as free as a bird - grammaticaly correct, however too long
I'm free as a bird - not as correct, but that's what everybody uses...

What do your Americans say?

See you around. :)

[Gość: Bert]

Guess what, I have a crowd of almost twenty, half Irish,
half blue blood. It is going to cost me, because the
Irish half refuses to discuss the freedom thing with the
Mayflower party. You know, the
you-overstayed-the-invitation-vs-you-were-never-invited
argument. Grammar got lost in the mix. I am doing my
best though, a few more bottles and I?ll have them where
I want them. Results tomorrow.
Take care.

So did I

[Gość: Bert]

Early exit poll results. Sample: 21 adults.
Question: Which of the following is correct (how it ought
to be properly said or written)
1.I am as free as a bird ? 16 votes
2.I am free as a bird ? 2 votes
3.I am free like a bird ? 3 votes

I'm an Australian who speaks only English

[Gość: mark]

Greetings!

These all SOUND and FEEL correct:


Free as a bird
As free as a bird
I'm like a bird

These sound weird:

Free like a bird
As free like a bird
I'm as a bird


IDIOM plays an enormous part in all of this, especially in the world of popular
song, which has the added problems of scansion that have to be taken into
account.

PS, I just discovered this forum. I love it!
Cheers

[Gość: Bert]

Greetings to the good people down under.
Would you care to elaborate on the first "as" issue?
Just curious.

[Gość: mark]

"I'm AS free as a bird" is probably put forward by some textbooks as "better
English", but I can't really think of any context in any English-speaking
country where omitting the first "an" would sound or feel weird. Some Britons
of certain classes might feel that "I'm free as a bird" is an Americanism of
some sort and avoid it for that reason, but I'm just guessing :)

In English grammar just as in Polish (I'm trying to learn...), it seems that
you can't always rely on rules, there are so many "special cases" that break
the rules.

[Gość: Wojtek]

These are my conclusions so far:

#1 - In a few years time we'll all be saying "I am free as a bird", if 10 out
of 10 Americans say so today. Use this time wisely!

#2 - To spend a fortune on booze in order to get 16 people (Irish among them)
drunk enough to agree with your grammar-obsessed version is a solid proof of
madness. But then, you are free as Bert.

Stop bitting the dead horse

[Gość: mgr Wypych]

Wojtek from France knows better than Bert from Boston.
It's positively "Free as a bird".
If in a conversation you'll say "Free like a bird" the heads will turn.
Don't quote Cohen's writing 'cause it ain't always grammatically correct.

[Gość: mgr Wypych]

My apologies. I screwed myself with that bitting.
Mea culpa.

[Gość: Bert]

Bulver back in town? Just to boost your morale I have a
gift for you. Infantile, as it is, will be right for you.
Get cracking.

Lesson 1.
www.bbc.co.uk/education/listenandwrite/similes/helpuss.htm
Got it? Good. Now this for practice.

Lesson 2.
www.fortunecity.com/bally/durrus/153/gramch22.html
Don?t forget the exercises!

more of the same

[Gość: Bert]

Hi, Mark:
Mark, would you loose the first "as" in the following: as
soon as possible, as often as not, as long as? (E.g., I
will do it long as I am allowed to.) It's the same
conjunctive "as" as in "as good as new".

As for the simile business in general, I suspect I might
skip the first "as" provided I don?t intend to stress it.
To be emphatic, I need it in "My feet are AS LARGE as
boats". That's why I think the full "as...as" is safer
(gives me a chance to do more with it) whereas the
mutilated version might be lacking on some occasions. Our
laziness must have something to do with the whole issue,
too. Please comment.

Either, or . nt

[Gość: Kingfish]

[Gość: Wojtek]

Bert,
throwing links at me won't change much. Your '...as... as...' obsession comes
from mixing two different grammar topics. 'As...as' belongs to the chapter
treating the adjectives and adjective comparison. We are talking here 'like -
as' comparison, ok? Let me illustrate my point by suggesting that the "bird
saying" was originally like this: 'I am like a bird, free'. For some reason a
poet or song writer moved that adjective 'free' causing ambiguity. If you say
this sentence witha stress on to be - I AM free - than it begs 'like a bird'.
If you say I am FREE then 'as a bird' tends to follow. That may throw also some
light on American psyche, eh? There certainly is not any need for 'as...as', it
makes it sound out of all proportion.

Wacko,
...and whose heads might that be...? Freepers?

Jesus wept!

[Gość: Jadwiga Borsuk]

I'd go along with Mark. And Bert was talking sense on 6th November when he was
on a 'written record of informal speech'. Seems to me dropping the "as" to come
up with 'free as a bird' is extremely natural use of ellipsis. Spoken language
is full of this - doesn't make it inferior to the written grammar examples
loads of the posters have been quoting, that Martinet book being a good
example. I wouldn't get so worried about what people say - for my money spoken
English operates differently from written English and I try not to make
judgements all the time about what is right when someone opens their mouth as
speaks in real-time to communicate a message. "Forum English" is also different
from 'formal-letter-writing English' or other forms of written English. Why get
so worked up about it? Mind you, some smart arse is probably going to pick me
up on a typo or something...
Grammar-spotters can identify the uses of elipsis in this post.

How to use the word 'bollocks' is far more interesting I'd say. How many
textbooks deal with this extremely useful and common word?

[Gość: Wojtek]

Welcome, welcome...

No one gets worked up here, dear. It is all in the name of learning, arguing
for arguing's sake (and not even for the sake of being right) and fun. The more
outragous contributions, the better!
Jesus would weep, wouldn't he? He was a smutas! Prefer the Buddha myself.

long-face

[Gość: mishy]

he was not a long-face at all
"he will rejoice over thee with joy, he will joy over thee with singing"

.. he will positively kick the stinkin shit out of you if you overstep the mark,
sinner!

Read Bible!

[Gość: chickenShorts]

Gość portalu: mishy napisał(a):

> he was not a long-face at all
> "he will rejoice over thee with joy, he will joy over thee with singing"
>
> .. he will positively kick the stinkin shit out of you if you overstep the
m
> ark,
> sinner!

> Read Bible!

I have read it! Twice!

[awalk]

i have no time to read everything but my cpe book says free as a bird and so
says cambridge dictionary dictionary.cambridge.org/results.asp?
searchword=free+as. i don't think it makes sense to look any further. it seems
it is quite standard expression.

[Gość: Bert]

dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=bird*1+3

[Gość: Wojtek]

Yep! Stand corrected! And informed!
(BTW, from now on I am 'chickenShorts'.)

[Gość: Bert]

Sir, you did fine. You put up a good fight. I click my
heels and salute you.

[Gość: chickenShorts]

You are a Gentleman and a Scholar to say that, Sir. Pity your adversary,
Wojtek, is no longer here to hear. Shot dead!

[Gość: Bert]

The newly adopted pen name doesn't do you justice.
An ambush-in-the-works comes to mind.
See you around.