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"So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!"

IP: 209.148.249.* 27.06.03, 17:09
in one of the previous posts, the one on the dutch abortion clinic-ship,
agnes said, "So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!"

there is nothing one can add or subtract from it. i just wonder where all the
other OPEN-MINDED women of poland are to stand up for their OWN right to
decide for themselves about their own bodies. period.

or, have they all gone up to the church to ask the priest what is good for
them? what a shame!

sure, da-priest has a special license from pan bog to decide for you what is
right and what wrong, so that you don't have to make effort to do that for
yourself. this way he'll keep you morally indolent for the rest of your god-
dog life. but, doesn't he know how to sack up to you, ha, you proud
b....? 'congratulations'. o jezu.

a-man.

Obserwuj wątek
    • Gość: 1 Re: 'So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!' IP: 157.25.99.* 27.06.03, 19:05
      Unfortunately that argument could be used to leagalise a whole range of things.
      So let us drink drivers decide for ourselves! So let us drug addicts decide for
      ourselves! So let us tax evaders decide for ourselves! Don't talk crap.
      Why not go the whole way and request a society where everybody decides for
      themselves about everything they do? ie. Anarchy - sounds nice and trendy but I
      don't think we would want it in reality. Read 'Lord of the Flies' for example.
      The question is - should the law forbid abortion as a means of contraception or
      not? (This is of course what it is effectively being used for) The answer of
      course is NO! Why? Logically you can't contracept (if that's a word) something
      that's already happened. Women and Men (pregnancy happens because of a man and
      a woman) take responsibility for your actions! Sex is how babies are made so be
      careful -you know the risks. If you are not responsible enough to live with the
      consequences of your actions don't do it!!!If you have sex protect yourself -
      being aware, of course, that there is no 100% method.
      • Gość: chickenShorts Re: 'So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!' IP: *.w80-11.abo.wanadoo.fr 27.06.03, 19:33
        Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):

        > Unfortunately that argument could be used to leagalise a whole range of
        things.
        >
        > So let us drink drivers decide for ourselves! So let us drug addicts decide
        for
        >
        > ourselves! So let us tax evaders decide for ourselves!

        You mean to equate women with drink drivers or drug addicts? And which group
        contains the one logical devil called '1'?

        >Don't talk crap.

        Ditto!

        > Why not go the whole way and request a society where everybody decides for
        > themselves about everything they do? ie. Anarchy - sounds nice and trendy but
        I
        >
        > don't think we would want it in reality. Read 'Lord of the Flies' for example.


        Can I ask you how old you are? You talk as though you haven't read anything
        else...


        > The question is - should the law forbid abortion as a means of contraception
        or
        >
        > not? (This is of course what it is effectively being used for)

        You are a mega-troll!

        • Gość: 1 Re: 'So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!' IP: 157.25.99.* 27.06.03, 20:30
          Maybe you'd like to counterargue and not just offend. I'm not equating women
          with anything, merely giving examples of what happens when you use poor
          justification/argument. Age 34 by the way and fairly well read - difficult to
          judge. What about you chickenshorts?

          Gość portalu: chickenShorts napisał(a):

          > Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):
          >
          > > Unfortunately that argument could be used to leagalise a whole range of
          > things.
          > >
          > > So let us drink drivers decide for ourselves! So let us drug addicts decid
          > e
          > for
          > >
          > > ourselves! So let us tax evaders decide for ourselves!
          >
          > You mean to equate women with drink drivers or drug addicts? And which group
          > contains the one logical devil called '1'?
          >
          > >Don't talk crap.
          >
          > Ditto!
          >
          > > Why not go the whole way and request a society where everybody decides for
          >
          > > themselves about everything they do? ie. Anarchy - sounds nice and trendy
          > but
          > I
          > >
          > > don't think we would want it in reality. Read 'Lord of the Flies' for exam
          > ple.
          >
          >
          > Can I ask you how old you are? You talk as though you haven't read anything
          > else...
          >
          >
          > > The question is - should the law forbid abortion as a means of contracepti
          > on
          > or
          > >
          > > not? (This is of course what it is effectively being used for)
          >
          > You are a mega-troll!
          >
      • Gość: awalk Re: 'So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!' IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 27.06.03, 21:44
        Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):

        > Unfortunately that argument could be used to leagalise a whole range of things.
        >
        > So let us drink drivers decide for ourselves!

        Why not? I don't care if I am run over by a drunk or sober driver.

        >So let us drug addicts decide for
        > ourselves! So let us tax evaders decide for ourselves!

        themselves. Again it is their problem and I understand these are drug dealers that are punished not drug addicts.

        >Don't talk crap.

        please don't use offensive words. There is no need for them unless this is your purpose.

        > Why not go the whole way and request a society where everybody decides for
        > themselves about everything they do? ie. Anarchy - sounds nice and trendy but I don't think we would want it in reality.

        You are right, but we have anarchy in Poland already in reality. I don't think abortion is anarchy anyway.

        Read 'Lord of the Flies' for example.
        > The question is - should the law forbid abortion as a means of contraception or
        not? (This is of course what it is effectively being used for) The answer of
        > course is NO! Why? Logically you can't contracept (if that's a word) something that's already happened.

        You are wrong abortion is not contraception.

        Women and Men (pregnancy happens because of a man and
        > a woman) take responsibility for your actions! Sex is how babies are made so be careful -you know the risks. If you are not responsible enough to live with the consequences of your actions don't do it!!!If you have sex protect yourself being aware, of course, that there is no 100% method.

        Sex has nothing to do with responsibility. Young people are programmed (chemistry) to have sex and they can't help it (Nature not God).

        Finally, why do you think abortion in majority of the countries in Europe is legal? Do you think they lost their mind? Well let me tell you, you are minority. Most people in Europe disagree with your point of view. It is democracy not anarchy.
        • Gość: 1 Re: 'So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!' IP: *.visp.energis.pl 28.06.03, 16:08
          Again I think you misunderstand. I am trying to show that the form of argument
          used is senseless and not compare women who believe in abortion to these
          examples, I am also not saying that abortion is anarchy, but that the form of
          argument has its natural end in anarchy. If you read a little more carefully
          you will see that I am inferring, too, that abortion is not contraception. I
          am in total agreement with you. The unfortunate fact is that abortion is being
          used as contraception which is the point I am making.
          As far as your point about young people being programmed for sex - it's simply
          not true in the sense you are saying. Humans have certain instincts towards
          food, sex, staying alive generally but I don't think most people whether young
          or old consider themselves robots. I personally believe I have will of my own
          and am able to take responsibility for my actions without blaming some idea of
          programming. Watch the film Natural Born Killers or read the book Popcorn (Ben
          Elton) for comment on this topic. People need to take responsibility for their
          actions - it's not simple and it's certainly not convenient always but that's
          life. Let's not turn our consiences off.
          As far as most countries or people believing differently from me, I am afraid
          that that is no argument. Mohammed was rather in the minority when he was
          around and look how people agree with him now, Jesus and Galileo too, amongst
          a million others. (please don't think I am putting myself in their league). If
          you were to show an abortion taking place and then asked the audience to
          comment as to whether they were pro or anti abortion I think the answer would
          be unanimous - Anti. Maybe you should be proud of the fact that Poland could
          actually be one of the few countries in Europe with at least some form of a
          moral and ethical backbone.


          Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

          > Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):
          >
          > > Unfortunately that argument could be used to leagalise a whole range of th
          > ings.
          > >
          > > So let us drink drivers decide for ourselves!
          >
          > Why not? I don't care if I am run over by a drunk or sober driver.
          >
          > >So let us drug addicts decide for
          > > ourselves! So let us tax evaders decide for ourselves!
          >
          > themselves. Again it is their problem and I understand these are drug
          dealers t
          > hat are punished not drug addicts.
          >
          > >Don't talk crap.
          >
          > please don't use offensive words. There is no need for them unless this is
          your
          > purpose.
          >
          > > Why not go the whole way and request a society where everybody decides for
          >
          > > themselves about everything they do? ie. Anarchy - sounds nice and trendy
          > but I don't think we would want it in reality.
          >
          > You are right, but we have anarchy in Poland already in reality. I don't
          think
          > abortion is anarchy anyway.
          >
          > Read 'Lord of the Flies' for example.
          > > The question is - should the law forbid abortion as a means of contracepti
          > on or
          > not? (This is of course what it is effectively being used for) The answer of
          > > course is NO! Why? Logically you can't contracept (if that's a word) somet
          > hing that's already happened.
          >
          > You are wrong abortion is not contraception.
          >
          > Women and Men (pregnancy happens because of a man and
          > > a woman) take responsibility for your actions! Sex is how babies are made
          > so be careful -you know the risks. If you are not responsible enough to live
          wi
          > th the consequences of your actions don't do it!!!If you have sex protect
          yours
          > elf being aware, of course, that there is no 100% method.
          >
          > Sex has nothing to do with responsibility. Young people are programmed
          (chemist
          > ry) to have sex and they can't help it (Nature not God).
          >
          > Finally, why do you think abortion in majority of the countries in Europe is
          le
          > gal? Do you think they lost their mind? Well let me tell you, you are
          minority.
          > Most people in Europe disagree with your point of view. It is democracy not
          an
          > archy.
          • Gość: awalk Re: 'So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!' IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 28.06.03, 19:24
            Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):

            > Again I think you misunderstand. I am trying to show that the form of argument
            > used is senseless and not compare women who believe in abortion to these
            > examples, I am also not saying that abortion is anarchy, but that the form of
            > argument has its natural end in anarchy. If you read a little more carefully
            > you will see that I am inferring, too, that abortion is not contraception. I
            > am in total agreement with you. The unfortunate fact is that abortion is being
            > used as contraception which is the point I am making.

            It is true that abortion might be used as a contraceptive to control number of people in a population but I don't believe they do it even in China where they are desperate. I don't believe anybody in their right mind in any government in the Word would use it for that purpose. Not to mention that other ways of preventing unwanted pregnancy are cheaper and safer.

            > As far as your point about young people being programmed for sex - it's simply
            > not true in the sense you are saying. Humans have certain instincts towards
            > food, sex, staying alive generally but I don't think most people whether young
            > or old consider themselves robots. I personally believe I have will of my own
            > and am able to take responsibility for my actions without blaming some idea
            >of programming.

            Good programming allows you certain freedom of decision; you may call it a will of your own. In some cases even celibacy is possible but the experience shows it is rare even among catholic priests.

            Responibility is another rare animal.

            By the way, in English language the word chemistry means also attraction between two people. I think it very well illustrates the simple truth that we are programmed and controlled by various chemicals.

            >Watch the film Natural Born Killers or read the book Popcorn (Ben
            > Elton) for comment on this topic. People need to take responsibility for their
            > actions - it's not simple and it's certainly not convenient always but that's
            > life.

            This is another very broad subject but of no relevance here.

            >Let's not turn our consiences off.
            > As far as most countries or people believing differently from me, I am afraid
            > that that is no argument. Mohammed was rather in the minority when he was
            > around and look how people agree with him now, Jesus and Galileo too, amongst
            > a million others. (please don't think I am putting myself in their league).

            I compare nations not you and other people. I am saying we (the Polish Nation) are minority in Europe; even in Italy and Spain (catholic countries ) abortion is legal. I am an atheist so Jesus and Mohammed are not good examples. As for Galileo you have put him in a strange company indeed.

            >If
            > you were to show an abortion taking place and then asked the audience to
            > comment as to whether they were pro or anti abortion I think the answer would
            > be unanimous - Anti.

            This is not a fair argument. Most people are afraid of the sight of blood and operations; they don't like killing even a carp for Christmas, but they still do.

            >Maybe you should be proud of the fact that Poland could
            > actually be one of the few countries in Europe with at least some form of a
            > moral and ethical backbone.

            I am certainly not proud of it, and I don't find here anything moral or ethical.

            I think the bottom line is that you are a religious person, so abortion is against your set of values. Therefore we may argue here forever without being able to convince each other. But let me make a prediction. In a few years from now the Pope will die, and then very soon abortion will be legalized in Poland, and we will join EU also in that respect; and when it happens, then I will be proud.
    • kingfish -------------------It is unfortunate+===========>> 27.06.03, 20:53
      It is unfortunate some people would like to force their will on others.

      If you don’t like abortion, don’t have it.
      If you don’t like death penalty, don’t commit a crime for which you could be
      put to death for.
      If you are not for taking your own life, don’t do it.

      Live your life in accordance with you own believes and let the other people do
      the same.

      SIMPLE!
        • Gość: sleepy none of your business, father IP: 209.148.235.* 29.06.03, 02:43
          1 wrote, "If only it was that simple and all humans had similar high levels of
          morality. Someone has to look out for and protect the rights of those who for a
          variety of reasons cannot do so for themselves. "

          What rights have those that do not exist? None. Who gave you right to decide
          for women? Nobody.
          What is a right? Right is obligation and protection given someone worth it, by
          society. Women should have the right from our society to decide themselves
          about their bodies, not you. It's women's good judgment against your desire to
          regulate them. You just need a pretext to have control over them. I believe
          they are capable of good judgment, and should have the option to exercise it,
          not you, a self-appointed morality guard. Why you do that, to keep your job as
          a priest or just out of desire to feel powerful over them? Or because you are
          unable to cohabit with them in another way?
              • Gość: wacko jacko Re: a fortunate post IP: *.nyc.rr.com 29.06.03, 18:18
                Gość portalu: sleepy napisał(a):

                > i am not sure if i get your point, wacko; it would seem that you confirm my
                > idea that it is society that grants you the right to operate a vehicle, and
                > it can take it away from you if you drink and drive, for example.

                My point is that your rights do not came from society or the government.
                The rights are not granted to you for good behavior.
                You don't have a right to drive a motor vehicle. The government grants you a
                privilege to do that under certain conditions. The rights are unconditional.

                I think that you are confusing rights with privileges.
                • Gość: awalk Re: a fortunate post IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 30.06.03, 09:15
                  Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

                  > Gość portalu: sleepy napisał(a):
                  >
                  > > i am not sure if i get your point, wacko; it would seem that you confirm m
                  > y
                  > > idea that it is society that grants you the right to operate a vehicle, an
                  > d
                  > > it can take it away from you if you drink and drive, for example.
                  >
                  > My point is that your rights do not came from society or the government.
                  > The rights are not granted to you for good behavior.
                  > You don't have a right to drive a motor vehicle. The government grants you a
                  > privilege to do that under certain conditions. The rights are unconditional.
                  >
                  > I think that you are confusing rights with privileges.

                  Waco I am afraid you have created your own definitions of words 'right' and 'privilege' and now you want us to use them. And what do you mean by unconditional rights anyway? Well, whatever they are, getting back to the subject women must be granted the right/privilege in Poland to make their own decision. I don't think they will overuse it.
          • Gość: 1 Re: none of your business, father IP: 157.25.99.* 30.06.03, 09:15
            Yes I am a father although not in the religious sense. As a father I know
            pretty much exactly when each of my 2 children started to exist - approximately
            9 months before they were born. If you talk to any pregnant woman they try to
            take care about the environment their unborn baby is growing in- regarding
            their own stress levels, diet, the music they listen to, etc. A child exists in
            the womb.
            I agree with the main tenets of feminism which try to protect the basic rights
            of a woman. But cannot agree to the notion that this is a matter of women's
            rights - it just doesn't make sense. As far as that feisty claptrap of men
            imposing control etc etc - don't overreact and stick to sensible discussion.
            You'll find more woemn than men are opposed to abortion. Another thing - why do
            you have to get so insulting in your tone?

            What rights have those that do not exist? None. Who gave you right to decide
            for women? Nobody.
            What is a right? Right is obligation and protection given someone worth it, by
            society. Women should have the right from our society to decide themselves
            about their bodies, not you. It's women's good judgment against your desire to
            regulate them. You just need a pretext to have control over them. I believe
            they are capable of good judgment, and should have the option to exercise it,
            not you, a self-appointed morality guard. Why you do that, to keep your job as
            a priest or just out of desire to feel powerful over them? Or because you are
            unable to cohabit with them in another way?




            • Gość: sleepy your business, father IP: 209.148.248.* 30.06.03, 17:43
              o gee, 1... there is a terrible news this morning, have u heard it? and u may
              be able to help. it all came to light as i was just thinking about what u meant
              when u said, "I know pretty much exactly when each of my 2 children started to
              exist - approximately 9 months before they were born..."

              well, i heard that a baby was thrown out of a 10th floor apartment window onto
              the concrete sidewalk right below it... o gee-zeus...horrible, isn't it? but if
              u hurry up, u might be able to save it... yes, there is a consolation in all
              this tragic accident, though.... the baby is pretty much safe in a condom....
              so go and caress it.
        • Gość: awalk Re: -------------------It is unfortunate+======== IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 30.06.03, 08:47
          Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):

          > If only it was that simple and all humans had similar high levels of morality.
          > Someone has to look out for and protect the rights of those who for a variety
          > of reasons cannot do so for themselves. Hence the success and popularity of
          > organisations like Amnesty International, Oxfam, Merlin, to name but a few.


          And who is supposed to be that someone? Experience and history show that such people or groups of people, sooner or later instead of protecting 'those who for a variety of reasons cannot do so for themselves', use the ones for their own benefit. Next problem is the morality; according to my knowledge there are many, and everybody is absolutely convinced that theirs is the right and the only one.
          • Gość: 1 Re: -------------------It is unfortunate+======== IP: 157.25.99.* 30.06.03, 12:48
            Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

            > Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):
            >
            > > If only it was that simple and all humans had similar high levels of moral
            > ity.
            > > Someone has to look out for and protect the rights of those who for a vari
            > ety
            > > of reasons cannot do so for themselves. Hence the success and popularity o
            > f
            > > organisations like Amnesty International, Oxfam, Merlin, to name but a few
            > .
            >
            >
            > And who is supposed to be that someone? Experience and history show that such
            p
            > eople or groups of people, sooner or later instead of protecting 'those who
            for
            > a variety of reasons cannot do so for themselves', use the ones for their
            own
            > benefit.


            Could you give me a few examples of that from history and experience?


            Next problem is the morality; according to my knowledge there are many
            > , and everybody is absolutely convinced that theirs is the right and the only
            o
            > ne.

            A good start might be The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
            (www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) or if people were to abide by the
            rules of their religion be it Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist etc. The trouble with
            everyone having their own morality is that it leads to the extremes we see in
            the world today.
            • Gość: awalk Re: -------------------It is unfortunate+======== IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 30.06.03, 15:17
              Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):


              >
              >
              > Could you give me a few examples of that from history and experience?
              >

              So you want to go into details, please be my guest '1': Roman Catholic Church from my experience and all other religious organizations from the history; our Polish politicians from my experience and all other politicians in the World; our Polish judges and prosecutors and all others; oh! and a very large group - bureaucrats etc. etc. Please don't ask me for their addresses or telephone numbers - they are in telephone directories.
              >
              > Next problem is the morality; according to my knowledge there are many
              > > , and everybody is absolutely convinced that theirs is the right and the o
              > nly
              > o
              > > ne.
              >
              > A good start might be The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
              > (www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) or if people were to abide by the
              > rules of their religion be it Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist etc. The trouble with
              > everyone having their own morality is that it leads to the extremes we see in
              > the world today.

              I agree but this is my point, and let me repeat myself, experience and history show that it is impossible to change. So any good solution to that problem should take into account our human nature, otherwise however beautiful it is, it is worthless. To be precise when I say human nature I mean our negative character traits. All beautiful declarations and rules, Communist, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist etc. have already been tried and haven't worked, so it doesn,t make sense to use them again. That is why I will not read "The Universal Declaration of Human Rights" because I know what I will find there - a lot of beautiful words and ideas without any connection to reality.
              • Gość: 1 Re: -------------------It is unfortunate+======== IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 15:57
                Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

                > Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):
                >
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Could you give me a few examples of that from history and experience?
                > >
                >
                > So you want to go into details, please be my guest '1': Roman Catholic Church
                f
                > rom my experience and all other religious organizations from the history; our
                P
                > olish politicians from my experience and all other politicians in the World;
                ou
                > r Polish judges and prosecutors and all others; oh! and a very large group -
                bu
                > reaucrats etc. etc. Please don't ask me for their addresses or telephone
                numbe
                > rs - they are in telephone directories.

                Sorry, I wasn't talking about governments - they are more often than not the
                problem, organised religion too. This is why such NGOs which are
                sometimes/sometimes not loosely related to religious groups exist.

                > >
                > > Next problem is the morality; according to my knowledge there are many
                > > > , and everybody is absolutely convinced that theirs is the right and
                > the o
                > > nly
                > > o
                > > > ne.
                > >
                > > A good start might be The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
                > > (www.un.org/Overview/rights.html) or if people were to abide by the
                > > rules of their religion be it Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist etc. The trouble
                > with
                > > everyone having their own morality is that it leads to the extremes we see
                > in
                > > the world today.
                >
                > I agree but this is my point, and let me repeat myself, experience and
                history
                > show that it is impossible to change. So any good solution to that problem
                shou
                > ld take into account our human nature, otherwise however beautiful it is, it
                is
                > worthless. To be precise when I say human nature I mean our negative
                character
                > traits. All beautiful declarations and rules, Communist, Catholic, Muslim,
                Bud
                > dhist etc. have already been tried and haven't worked, so it doesn,t make
                sense
                > to use them again. That is why I will not read "The Universal Declaration of
                H
                > uman Rights" because I know what I will find there - a lot of beautiful words
                a
                > nd ideas without any connection to reality.


                I have to agree. There is no hope for humanity as it is today. We are, in
                reality, a pretty useless lot if you look at all the crap that goes on in the
                world. But that is no argument for allowing it to get crappier.

                As for all those 'beautiful declarations' you talk about : personally, I
                believe that Jesus is the only answer, only hope and only way (He actually
                claims this of himself). If we all had the relationship with God that he had
                then we would be in the mess we are in today. I recommend you try reading the
                good old book in a modern translation - try the gospel of John for a start.
                You'll find hope there.
                (By the way, I am talking about the Jesus as presented in the bible and not
                about the poor imitation who is represented by certain religions and has been
                used as an excuse for war and oppression.)
    • Gość: wacko jacko Re: 'So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!' IP: *.nyc.rr.com 28.06.03, 18:29
      Mister 1 is absolutely right in his assessment of the present state of the
      highly politicized argument regarding the abortion.
      The advocates of the abortion rights do not see beyond the tips of their noses.

      Question: Why is suicide against the law?

      I just can't wait for the day when they discover the gay gene. The day when
      parents will know the sexual orientation of their unborn child.
      Can you imagine all gays being against the abortion at that point.
      Can you imagine the demonstrations? In front of Capitol? In front of the White
      House? It's going to be fun.
      • chickenshorts Re: 'So, LET US, WOMEN, DECIDE ON OURSELVES!!!' 28.06.03, 18:35
        Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

        > Mister 1 is absolutely right in his assessment of the present state of the
        > highly politicized argument regarding the abortion.
        > The advocates of the abortion rights do not see beyond the tips of their
        noses.
        >
        > Question: Why is suicide against the law?
        >
        > I just can't wait for the day when they discover the gay gene. The day when
        > parents will know the sexual orientation of their unborn child.
        > Can you imagine all gays being against the abortion at that point.
        > Can you imagine the demonstrations? In front of Capitol? In front of the
        White
        > House? It's going to be fun.

        ...said never doubting & crystal clear W-J!
          • i.p.freely Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide 30.06.03, 15:52
            about my reproductive life. After all, it is my uterus, my ovaries and MY LIFE
            all you guys are blabbing about.

            I am not religious, though I have nothing against religion of others, as long
            as the 'others' do not impose their misguided believes on ME!

            It is still a matter of heated debate when life begins. To some, a clump of
            devided cells is life, to me it is not. It is just that, a microscopic clump,
            that at some point in time becomes capable of 'living'.



            • Gość: wacko jacko Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide IP: *.nyc.rr.com 30.06.03, 18:06
              It is a very simplistic approach. The issue of abortion has two aspects, moral
              and legal. What is legal is not neccessarily moral and vice versa.
              Some say that morality cannot be legislated. Well, we do it all the time.
              My question is where are the rights of the father?
              Let's say that he wants her to abort the pregnancy which she wants to carry to
              a term. Who gets to make that decision?
              And that cluster of divided cells is not going to turn to a fish or an
              elephant.
              So far I see only the extremes. One side says: Let me do whatever I want with
              my body. The other side shouts: Abortion is murder.
              I wonder what are the chances for a compromise?
              • Gość: awalk Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 30.06.03, 19:06
                Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

                > ...My question is where are the rights of the father?

                www.tata.pl :)

                > Let's say that he wants her to abort the pregnancy which she wants to carry to
                > a term. Who gets to make that decision?

                But of course it is her right because it is her body not his.

                > ...So far I see only the extremes. One side says: Let me do whatever I want with
                > my body. The other side shouts: Abortion is murder.

                I'd put it differently. One side shouts let me make decisions about myself and other says No way Jose, you will do exactly the way we tell you.

                > I wonder what are the chances for a compromise?

                I don't think there is the slightest chance for that.
                • Gość: 1 Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 13:46
                  Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

                  > Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):
                  >
                  > > ...My question is where are the rights of the father?
                  >
                  > www.tata.pl :)
                  >
                  > > Let's say that he wants her to abort the pregnancy which she wants to carr
                  > y to
                  > > a term. Who gets to make that decision?
                  >
                  > But of course it is her right because it is her body not his.


                  Very simplistic 'awalk' - what is inside her body is also his - it's a joint
                  venture.
                  >

                  > > ...So far I see only the extremes. One side says: Let me do whatever I wan
                  > t with
                  > > my body. The other side shouts: Abortion is murder.
                  >
                  > I'd put it differently. One side shouts let me make decisions about myself
                  and
                  > other says No way Jose, you will do exactly the way we tell you.

                  Why don't you try to argue a point and not come out with that crap. In a large
                  proportion of your life you don't make decisions about yourself. Society (human
                  or otherwise) must have rules in order to survive. You can't be a selfish,
                  irresponsible individual if you want to cos that leads to the destruction of
                  society. That's life in the 21st century. The question is - should society
                  impose laws which prohibit the use of abortion as a way of getting rid of an
                  accidental problem. Abortion in Poland is legal in the extreme cases where it
                  is justifiable. It shouldn't be possible for people to kill babies willy-nilly.
                  >
                  > > I wonder what are the chances for a compromise?
                  >
                  > I don't think there is the slightest chance for that.
                  Compromise is not always a good thing. I don't see a workable compromise to be
                  made. Either we respect human life and forbid abortion, keeping the present
                  reasonable laws or we go the whole way and allow people to kill as much as they
                  want.
                  If 50% of aborted children are female it seems to me that feminism is doing a
                  good job of reducing its future numbers. They say that 185 000 legal abortions
                  performed in the UK in 2001 which is 90 000 possible future feminist recruits.
                  Strange way of doing business.
                  • butter_fly Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide 01.07.03, 14:15
                    Gość portalu: 1 napisał(a):

                    > Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):
                    >
                    > > Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):
                    > >
                    > > > ...My question is where are the rights of the father?
                    > >
                    > > www.tata.pl :)
                    > >
                    > > > Let's say that he wants her to abort the pregnancy which she wants to
                    > carr
                    > > y to
                    > > > a term. Who gets to make that decision?
                    > >
                    > > But of course it is her right because it is her body not his.
                    >
                    >
                    > Very simplistic 'awalk' - what is inside her body is also his - it's a joint
                    > venture.
                    > >
                    >
                    > > > ...So far I see only the extremes. One side says: Let me do whatever
                    > I wan
                    > > t with
                    > > > my body. The other side shouts: Abortion is murder.
                    > >
                    > > I'd put it differently. One side shouts let me make decisions about myself
                    >
                    > and
                    > > other says No way Jose, you will do exactly the way we tell you.
                    >
                    > Why don't you try to argue a point and not come out with that crap. In a
                    large
                    > proportion of your life you don't make decisions about yourself. Society
                    (human
                    >
                    > or otherwise) must have rules in order to survive. You can't be a selfish,
                    > irresponsible individual if you want to cos that leads to the destruction of
                    > society. That's life in the 21st century. The question is - should society
                    > impose laws which prohibit the use of abortion as a way of getting rid of an
                    > accidental problem. Abortion in Poland is legal in the extreme cases where it
                    > is justifiable. It shouldn't be possible for people to kill babies willy-
                    nilly.

                    1, why don't you try to understand that number of abortions carried out has
                    nothing to do with its being legal or illegal. Although it's illegal it happens
                    very often and it's just a matter of money. The more 'she' has the safer it is.
                    Just ask among young people, just do it. I happen to talk to ppl a lot and
                    young ppl too. For me - whether abortion is legal or not - it makes no
                    difference. And why not try preventing instead of duscussing such an issue?
                    Improving sexual education, making contraception cheaper; that would definitely
                    lead to some decrease in the number of abortions in Poland.
                    By the way - as for the legal cases of abortion - there were cases when the
                    doctors put off decicion making, until ot was too late; On the other hand with
                    the help of the right amount of money, a few cases became suddenly leagal.
                    • butter_fly Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide - PS 01.07.03, 14:24
                      It annoys me terribly when people talk about things being legal or illigan not
                      considering facts and the reality. Really, in France, when abortion was illegal
                      it was impossible to have it done; But we are in Poland and whatever the law
                      says... no difference
                      • Gość: 1 Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide - PS IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 15:29
                        butter_fly napisała:

                        > It annoys me terribly when people talk about things being legal or illigan
                        not
                        > considering facts and the reality. Really, in France, when abortion was
                        illegal
                        >
                        > it was impossible to have it done; But we are in Poland and whatever the law
                        > says... no difference

                        Of course abortion in Poland will always be available illegally and people
                        won't be prosecuted due to the state of the system here. The point is that the
                        law should do its upmost to protect those that cannot protect themselves.
                        On top of this the education and health systems should do their bit to prevent
                        unwanted pregnancies and the church should start acting to help those
                        considering abortion rather than damning them.
                    • Gość: 1 Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 15:22
                      butter_fly napisała:

                      > 1, why don't you try to understand that number of abortions carried out has
                      > nothing to do with its being legal or illegal. Although it's illegal it
                      happens very often and it's just a matter of money. The more 'she' has the
                      safer it is.
                      >

                      I have to disagree with you, there, butterfly. If abortion was legalised the
                      number of abortions carried out would rise.

                      > Just ask among young people, just do it. I happen to talk to ppl a lot and
                      > young ppl too. For me - whether abortion is legal or not - it makes no
                      > difference. And why not try preventing instead of duscussing such an issue?
                      > Improving sexual education, making contraception cheaper; that would
                      definitely lead to some decrease in the number of abortions in Poland.
                      > By the way - as for the legal cases of abortion - there were cases when the
                      > doctors put off decicion making, until ot was too late; On the other hand
                      with the help of the right amount of money, a few cases became suddenly leagal.

                      As to the rest of your reply I couldn't agree more. Education, which explains
                      the dangers of unprotected sex and the choices available when someone has an
                      unwanted pregnancy, (including explaining abortion and its psychological and
                      often physical consequences).
            • Gość: 1 Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 13:51
              i.p.freely napisał:

              > about my reproductive life. After all, it is my uterus, my ovaries and MY LIFE
              > all you guys are blabbing about.
              >
              > I am not religious, though I have nothing against religion of others, as long
              > as the 'others' do not impose their misguided believes on ME!

              It's not about religion it's about society and the law and the law is always
              imposed on you.
              >
              > It is still a matter of heated debate when life begins. To some, a clump of
              > devided cells is life, to me it is not. It is just that, a microscopic clump,
              > that at some point in time becomes capable of 'living'.
              >
              > The problem is that what you think about when life begins is scientifically
              wrong. Life begins at conception otherwise the thing wouldn't grow. Yes it is
              your uterus and ovaries but the baby inside is also partly your partner's. It's
              also part of him. Where are Men's Rights?
              • i.p.freely Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide 01.07.03, 16:12
                Gosc 1 napisal/a
                <It's not about religion it's about society and the law and the law is always
                imposed on you.>
                ********
                It's not about religion. Oh, please spare me....Did it occur to you that that
                country of ours is a thinly veiled theocracy? In your opinion just who shapes
                moral convictions in that great country of ours?
                Moreover, nothing is done, no law is passed if it does not meet the approval
                of the official church of Poland.
                How about people like me, that do not share religious views of the majority?
                How is it that in a 'so-called democratic' nation I cannot contribute to
                shaping those laws? After all that womb belongs to me, not to some imaginary
                god, not to the government, not to the female next door.

                People like me have no intention of FORCING ABORTION. I would like to BE LEFT
                THE HELL ALONE IF and WHEN I MAKE THE DECISION TO HAVE ONE. It is, foremost, a
                matter of MY OWN CONSCIENCE and MY FUTURE. After all I might be uneducated,
                unemployed, having one too many children already and pregnant again!!!!!

                Gosc 1 napisal/a
                < The problem is that what you think about when life begins is scientifically
                wrong. Life begins at conception otherwise the thing wouldn't grow. Yes it is
                your uterus and ovaries but the baby inside is also partly your partner's.
                It's
                also part of him. Where are Men's Rights?>
                **********
                Eveything starts with some or other form of conception, process not exclusive
                to humans afterall. One cell meets the other cell, they smile at each other,
                join and start dividing.... The question is - can we call this clump HUMAN
                BEING?
                If we can... call me a murderer for I might have passed several of those human
                beings in my monthly menses. So, who is wrong my friend?

                "Where are Men's rights?" - you ask. Usually they end the second the 'little
                feller' meets the smiling egg, he he he... Ask around. I am sure you will find
                some guys that wish they kept the fly zipped up.






                • Gość: 1 Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide IP: 157.25.99.* 01.07.03, 20:41
                  i.p.freely napisał:

                  > Gosc 1 napisal/a
                  > <It's not about religion it's about society and the law and the law is alway
                  > s
                  > imposed on you.>
                  > ********
                  > It's not about religion. Oh, please spare me....Did it occur to you that that
                  > country of ours is a thinly veiled theocracy? In your opinion just who shapes
                  > moral convictions in that great country of ours?
                  > Moreover, nothing is done, no law is passed if it does not meet the approval
                  > of the official church of Poland.
                  > How about people like me, that do not share religious views of the majority?
                  > How is it that in a 'so-called democratic' nation I cannot contribute to
                  > shaping those laws? After all that womb belongs to me, not to some imaginary
                  > god, not to the government, not to the female next door.

                  You live in a democracy, the majority voted as they did, you have the
                  government you have. If enough people voted for a non-catholic loving party
                  then you'd have a different situation - but they didn't. That's life. Imagine
                  the next government with Lepper and Giertych in cohorts, God forbid. Do you
                  prefer democracy or autocracy?
                  Sure your womb is yours but what's inside is also his.

                  >
                  > People like me have no intention of FORCING ABORTION. I would like to BE LEFT
                  > THE HELL ALONE IF and WHEN I MAKE THE DECISION TO HAVE ONE. It is, foremost,
                  a
                  > matter of MY OWN CONSCIENCE and MY FUTURE. After all I might be uneducated,
                  > unemployed, having one too many children already and pregnant again!!!!!
                  >
                  Which is a great reason to kill your baby.

                  > Gosc 1 napisal/a
                  > < The problem is that what you think about when life begins is scientificall
                  > y
                  > wrong. Life begins at conception otherwise the thing wouldn't grow. Yes it is
                  > your uterus and ovaries but the baby inside is also partly your partner's.
                  > It's
                  > also part of him. Where are Men's Rights?>
                  > **********
                  > Eveything starts with some or other form of conception, process not exclusive
                  > to humans afterall. One cell meets the other cell, they smile at each other,
                  > join and start dividing.... The question is - can we call this clump HUMAN
                  > BEING?
                  > If we can... call me a murderer for I might have passed several of those
                  human
                  > beings in my monthly menses. So, who is wrong my friend?
                  >
                  Certain things happen by nature, including of course the sad fact of
                  miscarriage, too. Maybe you could try explaining your views to a woman who has
                  had several miscarriages and can't have a baby. She'd also like to have a
                  choice.

                  > "Where are Men's rights?" - you ask. Usually they end the second the 'little
                  > feller' meets the smiling egg, he he he... Ask around.

                  Why?

                  I am sure you will find some guys that wish they kept the fly zipped up.

                  I'm sure I would. They are equally responsible for the life created and
                  shouldn't duck the question and pressurise for an abortion. If you can't live
                  with the responsibility of the consequences of sex, don't do it.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  • i.p.freely Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide 01.07.03, 21:52
                    Gosc 1 napisal/a
                    "Which is a great reason to kill your baby."

                    To kill my baby?
                    How can I KILL anything that does not exist yet?
                    It becomes a BABY when it comes out of the oven my friend.

                    Don't get me wrong, I do respect life but what is more important MY LIFE or
                    THAT OF THE FETUS. Who needs who in here?
                    • Gość: 1 Re: Let me ( nobody else) decide IP: 157.25.99.* 02.07.03, 12:38
                      i.p.freely napisał:

                      > Gosc 1 napisal/a
                      > "Which is a great reason to kill your baby."
                      >
                      > To kill my baby?
                      > How can I KILL anything that does not exist yet?
                      But 'IT' does exist. When does it have a heart beat? When does it have arms and
                      legs, eyes? "It's" got human DNA, as opposed to any other creature's.

                      > It becomes a BABY when it comes out of the oven my friend.
                      Check you Ultrasound at about 3 months - it sure looks like a baby.

                      > Don't get me wrong, I do respect life but what is more important MY LIFE or
                      > THAT OF THE FETUS. Who needs who in here?

                      If your life is in physical danger Polish law allows for abortion.
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