women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia?

06.10.07, 06:45
W USA kobiety choc nie sa mniejszosci w doslownym tego slowa
znaczeniu zaliczane sa do tzw: "minorities" tak samo jak afro-
amerkanie, latynosi czy homoseksualisci.

Jak tlumaczy sie to na jezyk Polski? Kiedys na polskim forum w
stosunku do kobiet, uzylem slowa "mniejszosc" i spotkalo sie to z
niezrozumieniem.

Oczywiscie kobiety nie sa mniejszoscia, wrecz przeciwnie, w krajach
zachodu zwykle na 100 mezcyzn jest 106- 116 kobiet. Ale jak okreslic
w jezyku Polskim "mniejszosc" gdy na mysli mamy grupy spoleczne
ktore sa lub byly uznawane za slabsze lub w przeszlosci
nieuprzywilejowane, np jak kobiety ???
    • milusiaa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 06.10.07, 13:33
      kobiety są traktowane jako mniejszość społeczna i chodzi tu o
      mniejsze uprzywilejowanie, jak sam/a zauważyłeś/aś

      (Kobiety traktujemy w tym kontekście jako mniejszość, mimo że
      bynajmniej nią nie są, ponieważ są one prześladowane; doświadczenie
      prześladowania zaś automatycznie nadaje nam status mniejszości i
      vice versa.)

      polecam ten artykuł:
      www.femina.org.pl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=457&Itemid=31
      • polska_potega_swiatowa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 07:14
        milusiaa napisała:

        > kobiety są traktowane jako mniejszość społeczna i chodzi tu o
        > mniejsze uprzywilejowanie, jak sam/a zauważyłeś/aś

        Jako mezczyzna nie przychodzi mi do glowy chocby jeden przyklad
        przywilejow meskich...no chyba ze masz na mysli sluzbe wojskowa :)
        Niemniej jednak zeby kobiety byly mniej uprzywilejowane, ktos
        (mezcyzni) powinni byc bardziej uprzywilejowani.

        Mysle ze kobiety myla uprzywilejowanie, z zaradnoscia zyciowa....Ale
        to zupelnie inny temat.

        Moze raczej poprawne bylo by nie "minority" tylko "weaker sex"
        albo "less self-sufficient"?


        • milusiaa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 10:06
          I won't argue ad rem, I'm bad at convincing;) (but just to name a
          few: salaries, the position women have (or cannot reach) in
          politics, the fact that is't us who take care of the babies; I'm not
          a faminist myself, you'd need to talk to them ;)

          "mniejszość społeczna" is a sociological phenomenon and maybe that
          was the reason why Polish women felt offended when you used it (they
          probably weren't familiar with the term)
          • polska_potega_swiatowa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 10:55
            milusiaa napisała:

            > I won't argue ad rem, I'm bad at convincing;) (but just to name a
            > few: salaries, the position women have (or cannot reach) in
            > politics,

            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_women_heads_of_state
            So what are those positions that women allegedly can not reach in
            politics? :)

            And here is quite a long list of the woment bilionares:
            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_billionaires
            > the fact that is't us who take care of the babies;

            babies are not brought up exlusively by women, neither they are
            created solely by women....men do have a large role to play in the
            this process, as well. That is the fakt that is almost uniforly
            overlooked by women.

            Consider that about 95% of what is material, all but few things that
            make up our western civilization is the result of the mens thinking
            and labor...
            • milusiaa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 11:05
              nota bene: you claimed they were Polish wemen who felt offended when
              you used the term "minority", am I right?

              where are the Poles in both lists?

              in Poland men do not leave their positions to take over the bringing
              up of their kids, that is expected of women and it usually ends in 1-
              2 year career gap, worse salary when we get back to work or we just
              lose our jobs - let's face it, that's Polish reality
              • polska_potega_swiatowa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 11:24
                milusiaa napisała:

                > nota bene: you claimed they were Polish wemen who felt offended
                > when you used the term "minority", am I right?
                > where are the Poles in both lists?

                Barbara Piasecka Johnson is the 22nd on the list of the worlds
                richest women, it is interesting to point out that Oprah Winphrey
                is ...47nd, and is worth 1.5 bilion US, comparing to 2.8 bilion
                dollar fortune of Piasecka.

                Poland had a women prime minister- Hanna Suchocka, if I got the name
                right, and many governament ministers who were or are women.
                Currently in Kaczyznski governement there's 2 women ministers, and a
                mayor of Warsaw is pani Hanna Gronkiewicz- Waltz, to name the few,
                Im sure there's more examples that I dont know of.


                > in Poland men do not leave their positions to take over the
                > bringing up of their kids, that is expected of women and it
                > usually ends in 1-2 year career gap, worse salary when we get
                > back to work or we justlose our jobs - let's face it, that's
                > Polish reality

                In USA, country that is unquestionalbly developed...women are not
                paid maternity leave at all! And they only can take 3 weeks unpaid
                leave, after which they have to return to work, or loose job, so as
                you see Polish women are not the ones that are worst off.

                Child bearing and carriers are not compatible for a reason, you can
                not have all, besides nobody forces women to have kids nowodays.


                • milusiaa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 11:30
                  America's not developed, it's a barbaric, yet rich country

                  take a better example of Sweden or Germany
                  • polska_potega_swiatowa Germany is not barbaric? ever heard about Nazis? 07.10.07, 12:16
                    milusiaa napisała:

                    > America's not developed, it's a barbaric, yet rich country
                    >
                    > take a better example of Sweden or Germany

                    Germany is not barbaric??? :) Forgot about Nazi Germany, Holocaust
                    and 6 milion Poles that they murdered, not mentioning razing Warsaw
                    to ashes in 1939-44? I'm guessing you learned your history from
                    German tekstbooks :)

                    Besides Swedes are not much better, remember Swedish delugde? Thanks
                    to them most of the Polish medieval castles and a bulk of town
                    structures didn't survive to our days. This is what you call
                    civilised nations?

                    I know, in Germany or the rest of western Europe bloody history
                    doesn't matter, all that counts is that now they can pretend to be
                    civilized, after they ploundered and sucked most of that they could
                    from their collonies, and neigbours.

                    • milusiaa Re: Germany is not barbaric? ever heard about Naz 07.10.07, 12:57
                      polska_potega_swiatowa napisał:

                      > Germany is not barbaric??? :) Forgot about Nazi Germany, Holocaust
                      > and 6 milion Poles that they murdered, not mentioning razing
                      Warsaw
                      > to ashes in 1939-44? I'm guessing you learned your history from
                      > German tekstbooks :)
                      >
                      > Besides Swedes are not much better, remember Swedish delugde?


                      I meant their social security systems
                      we're not discussing the past, are we?
                      • polska_potega_swiatowa Re: Germany is not barbaric? ever heard about Naz 07.10.07, 13:02
                        milusiaa napisała:

                        > I meant their social security systems
                        > we're not discussing the past, are we?


                        You wrote that USA was barbaric, so do not be suprised I took it
                        that way:

                        milusiaa napisała:

                        > America's not developed, it's a barbaric, yet rich country
                        > take a better example of Sweden or Germany
                        • milusiaa Re: Germany is not barbaric? ever heard about Naz 07.10.07, 14:15
                          polska_potega_swiatowa napisał:


                          >
                          > You wrote that USA was barbaric, so do not be suprised I took it
                          > that way:
                          >

                          It is barbaric for the reasons you've mentioned (women's rights
                          violated at work) among others

                          it is the lack of respect in those who govern the country for other
                          people in the US as well as overseas (you should know what I'm
                          talking about)
            • milusiaa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 11:15
              polska_potega_swiatowa napisał:

              > Consider that about 95% of what is material, all but few things
              that
              > make up our western civilization is the result of the mens
              thinking
              > and labor...

              could you please clearly state the sources?

              I am slightly suspicious you find women inferior to men
              • polska_potega_swiatowa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 11:30
                milusiaa napisała:

                > could you please clearly state the sources?
                > I am slightly suspicious you find women inferior to men


                I would not say they are inferior, but if you look at the statistics
                you clearly see that if you examine top worlds inventors, clasical
                composers, scientists, and so on, women barely make first top ten.
                In science on the tom, there's only Maria Curie among all man
                scientist. I classical music there's no women composers in the first
                or even second league...Those are facts.

                I'm not saying women are not as smart as man, but as you see they
                didn't do much to prove their can compete with men.
                • milusiaa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 11:33
                  polska_potega_swiatowa napisał:

                  I'm not saying women are not as smart as man, but as you see they
                  > didn't do much to prove their can compete with men.

                  because they were busy giving birth to and bringing up their kids
                  quite often with no help from their husbands
                  • polska_potega_swiatowa men and women have different roles to play 07.10.07, 12:26
                    milusiaa napisała:

                    > because they were busy giving birth to and bringing up their kids
                    > quite often with no help from their husbands

                    Don't you think women and men have differen roles to play in their
                    lives? Don't you think if men and women were really "created equal",
                    they would both have the same functions as giving birth, and so on?

                    This is what happens when you try to negate nature, you feel
                    unfullfilled competing with men. While women were not created to
                    compete with men, they were created to complement men, and vice
                    versa.

                    By complementing I don't mean (prawienie komplementow) I mean
                    (dopelnianie sie nawzajem):)

                    • milusiaa Re: men and women have different roles to play 07.10.07, 13:03
                      polska_potega_swiatowa napisał:


                      > Don't you think women and men have differen roles to play in their
                      > lives? Don't you think if men and women were really "created
                      equal",
                      > they would both have the same functions as giving birth, and so on?

                      not in the modern world, where a man cannot support his family on
                      his own - and that's a fact not only in Poland


                      > This is what happens when you try to negate nature, you feel
                      > unfullfilled competing with men. While women were not created to
                      > compete with men, they were created to complement men, and vice
                      > versa.
                      >
                      > By complementing I don't mean (prawienie komplementow) I mean
                      > (dopelnianie sie nawzajem):)

                      yes, I know what 'complement' means;)

                      you see, if God wanted us to really be unequal, the only duty of
                      women would have to be bringing up children as that's a full-time job

                      it's simply not possible in today's world, so we need equal chances
                      to be promoted at work, to have access to the same jobs and be paid
                      as much as men do for doing the same job

                      and as we are not treated this way, sociologists call this
                      phenomenon "social minority"


                • milusiaa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 11:33
                  besides, many of them didn't have an access to education
                  • polska_potega_swiatowa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 12:21
                    milusiaa napisała:

                    > besides, many of them didn't have an access to education

                    was this "access to education" given to men by God, or did they
                    gained access thanks to their own efforts? You see the problem is in
                    the women mentality, you blame others, mainly men for your low
                    status in society, why men didn;t complain they educated themselves,
                    created schools. Why then women didn't do the same???

                    • milusiaa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 13:15
                      polska_potega_swiatowa napisał:
                      >
                      > was this "access to education" given to men by God, or did they
                      > gained access thanks to their own efforts? You see the problem is
                      in
                      > the women mentality, you blame others, mainly men for your low
                      > status in society, why men didn;t complain they educated
                      themselves,
                      > created schools. Why then women didn't do the same???

                      oh come on, you must have learnt history;)
                      they were dark days of humanity, when men thought of themselves as
                      the only ones with brains (up to the 19th century when women stood
                      up and fought for their rights - the suffragettes)
                      • milusiaa Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 13:36

                        polska_potega_swiatowa napisał:

                        >You see the problem is in the women mentality, you blame others,
                        mainly men for your low
                        > > status in society, why men didn;t complain they educated
                        > themselves,
                        > > created schools. Why then women didn't do the same???

                        it's not only mentality-driven
                        first of all, men are phisically stronger than women, they can force
                        women to stay at home and don't fight for their rights (that's the
                        scenario of the 16th, 17th 18th century family life)

                        besides, men never felt as much responsible for their kids'
                        unbringing as women did, which excluded them automatically from the
                        political, scientific and cultural circles
                        • mudzyn7 Re: women are "minority": kobiety sa mniejszoscia 07.10.07, 16:12
                          I'm all for it, but can you write your name on the snow while peeing?
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