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Poland is to France what Advil is to a pain in the

IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 28.12.03, 19:06
Sorry guys, I couldn't resist copying the whole article from The New York
Times here. Is something beginning to change? Are Americans finally beginning
to appreciate us? Well it is high time, that is for sure.

Happy New Year to everybody!

OP-ED COLUMNIST
Where U.S. Translates as Freedom
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Published: December 28, 2003

WARSAW

I found the cure.

I found the cure to anti-Americanism: Come to Poland.

After two years of traveling almost exclusively to Western Europe and the
Middle East, Poland feels like a geopolitical spa. I visited here for just
three days and got two years of anti-American bruises massaged out of me. Get
this: people here actually tell you they like America — without whispering.
What has gotten into these people? Have all their subscriptions to Le Monde
Diplomatique expired? Haven't they gotten the word from Berlin and Paris? No,
they haven't. In fact, Poland is the antidote to European anti-Americanism.
Poland is to France what Advil is to a pain in the neck. Or as Michael
Mandelbaum, the Johns Hopkins foreign affairs specialist, remarked after
visiting Poland: "Poland is the most pro-American country in the world —
including the United States."

What's this all about? It starts with history and geography. There's nothing
like living between Germany and Russia — which at different times have
trampled Poland off the map — to make Poles the biggest advocates of a
permanent U.S. military presence in Europe. Said Ewa Swiderska, 25, a Warsaw
University student: "We are the small kid in school who is really happy to
have the big guy be his friend — it's a nice feeling."

Indeed, all the history and geography that Western European youth have
forgotten, having grown up in a postmodern European Union, are still central
to Polish consciousness — well after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. "We
still remember many things," said Jan Miroslaw, 22, also a Warsaw University
student. "We are more eager to cooperate with America rather than just say
`no.' [The West Europeans] just don't remember many things — like the wars.
They live too-comfortable lives."

No wonder then when young Poles think of America, they think of the
word "freedom." They think of generations of U.S. presidents railing against
their communist oppressors. There is a huge message in this bottle. In the
Arab world, because of a long history of U.S. support for Arab autocrats, who
kept their people down but their oil flowing to us, America was a synonym for
hypocrisy. In Poland, where we have consistently trumpeted freedom, America
means freedom. We need to remember that. We are what we stand for.

Poland's becoming a member of the E.U. will give the U.S. an important friend
within that body — a counterweight to those E.U. forces that would like to
use anti-Americanism as the glue to bind the expanding alliance and that
would like to see the E.U. forge its identity as the great Uncola to
America's Coca-Cola.

But as powerful as Poland's bond to America is these days, we dare not take
it for granted. Poland has some 2,400 troops in Iraq. That's the good news.
The bad news is that roughly 75 percent of Poles oppose their deployment.
Polish officials will tell you Poland sent troops to Iraq to help keep the
Americans in Europe. But the public doesn't make such connections, and most
people don't understand what their boys are doing there or what Poland is
getting out of it. (How about a few extra visas for Poles?) If the U.S. ends
up in a mess in Iraq, so will Poland. Many "old" Europeans will then laugh at
Warsaw, and that would be highly corrosive for Polish-U.S. relations.

At the same time, once Poland is fully ensconced in the E.U., its young
people will grow up in that postmodern E.U. nirvana, where anti-Americanism
is in the drinking water. Sadly, many education and public diplomacy programs
the U.S. directed at Eastern Europe after the fall of communism have been cut
or redirected to the Muslim world. Bad timing.

There is now a competition between the United States of America and the
United States of Europe for the next generation of Poles — who don't all have
their parents' emotional ties to the U.S. — "and the U.S. is losing this
competition," says a Polish foreign policy expert, Grzegorz Kostrzewa-
Zorbas. "The new generation in Poland likes American pop culture, but it has
less contact with American high culture — like education. It is so much
easier for young Poles to go to university in Germany or France."

Given Poland's geography and history, there's a limit to how far it will
drift from America. Poland will never be France. But we shouldn't assume it
will remain the Poland of 1989 forever, either, and if it doesn't, that could
have real consequences for America's standing in Europe.
Obserwuj wątek
            • chickenshorts thank you, Mishy! 29.12.03, 19:09
              Gość portalu: m napisał(a):

              > for once I will stand up for the wretched thing, because he is right.
              >
              > The US foreign policy is rape and loot!
              >
              > How have you been dear chicken?

              > M.

              Hi, Mr racketeer of the year. I'm OK.
              I detect a quieter M in you. Has the old age eaten you at the edges? Hope not.
              How are you? How's the shop?
              • Gość: m Dear Chicks IP: 5.3.1R* / *.cache.pol.co.uk 29.12.03, 20:28
                The shop has been closed down and all the sale proceeds donated to
                good causes ( Derranged Old Bird Charitable Fund included... ;) )
                ...as you suggested, mon petit feathery friend, thank you

                I am refitting, soon to be back with more rubbish for the New Year....would
                you care to contribute with some abuse to?
                The rudder the better!


                Don't put the poultry in the pot!
                Still en France, my dear coq en vin?
                Am I detecting slight inebriation?

                Good to CU back!
                Yours
                Tipsey Speller
                M.
        • Gość: awalk Re: Poland is to France what Advil is to a pain i IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 29.12.03, 20:14
          Welcome back chick it's been a long time. I have certainly missed your presence
          here. Perhaps you will revive this forum again because I must agree with waco
          it has been boring stiff recently.

          Well getting back to your point, yes this article makes one wonder. Anyway an
          interesting discussion followed. Here are some random excerpts from it.

          'Pro-American boot lickers like the Polish, British, or Spanish governments are
          not representing the PEOPLE of those countries, they are representing
          corruption!

          Mr. Friedman's comment regarding winning the hearts and minds of the Polish
          people by giving them more visas seems like a very interesting suggestion to
          me. Are any of us (U.S., E.U., Japan, you name it) prepared to prove our
          feeling of solidarity with poor-but-friendly countries by removing restrictions
          on immigration from those countries? It would be interesting to see how that
          would play out... REAL globalization, not just in terms of free movement of
          money and jobs, but free movement of people. I'd really love to see that
          happen.

          Being the self appointed Arabist and Islamist expert non pareil, Friedman knows
          perfectly well that the main issue , the major source of resentment that turned
          into the virulent enmity felt by the Arabs towards America is Israel and
          America's total and unconditional support of its racist and expansionist plans
          in the Arab World. He could not have failed to note that having written
          innumerable articles and at least one book, to the best of my knowledge, about
          the subject.

          I have run into my share of Polish-Irish backgrounded Americans who try to link
          the history of Poland with that of Eire. They don't mention that whereas the
          Irish never beat back the Brits, the Poles have a lengthy history of aggression
          against Russia.

          Europeans will be big fans of the United States once again. Just two short
          years ago, the French were proclaiming that "we are all Americans" in the wake
          of the terror attacks in New York. It is nothing short of incredible that we
          have squandered all of that good feeling in two short years.

          Friedman made a decision on Iraq and has become as blindly invested in Bush as
          all of hate media. If Bush loses, hate media, which tells us Bush's every odor
          is delicious, loses; and so does Friedman lose. Hence, the gain of Poland
          equals the loss of France and Germany to every Bootlick for Bush in their echo
          chamber...

          Better men than Bush (who isn't?) brought Poland out of hell, and for some
          reason they didn't estrange from the Western Alliance to do it. Bush inherited
          NATO and turned it into Poland.

          Dear Tom, your column this week is even dumber than last week. Europeans are
          not anti-american. They are anti-George W. Bush. Your equating the two, tell me
          that your efforts at commercialization have come full circle. You were much
          more impressive when you simply wrote books about the middle east such as from
          beruit to jerusalem. '
          • chickenshorts Re: Poland is to France what Advil is to a pain i 30.12.03, 12:33
            Gość portalu: m napisał(a):
            >I am refitting, soon to be back with more rubbish for the New Year....

            No surprises there, then.

            But, to be fair, it is extremely difficult not to succumb. I know. I tried to
            set up a small transtport company in our beautiful country only to be forced
            out by competition. And what competition! As you will have seen in the first
            picture, all they could boast was the local priest's blessing.

            www.duvin.org/poland/poland.html

            >would
            >you care to contribute with some abuse to?
            >The rudder the better!<

            Couldn't be arsed!



            >Am I detecting slight inebriation?<

            Slight?!? I beg your pardon?...



            Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

            > Welcome back chick it's been a long time.

            Thank you, on foot. Happy New Year!
          • Gość: erwas Re: Poland is to France what Advil is to a pain i IP: *.sulphurcanyon.com 01.01.04, 03:52

            > Europeans are not anti-american. They are anti-George W. Bush.

            would it be a generalization to say that both you and Friedman are prone to
            generalizations, giving dubiously obtained propositions, expanding notions,
            perhaps diparigingly, perhaps based on too few recorded, credible instances.
            perhaps, faced with a real, live American (over 50% of whom belives that
            Iraqis, that is all Iraqis, hijack planes to blow up big buildings in NY, and
            stash big bombs that mounted on powerful missiles will rain down on the US and
            take out what's left), perhaps faced with one of those, all Europeans ARE anti-
            American. perhaps being anti-Bush, who is so deeply loved by a majority of
            Americans, is a cover for being anti-American. perhaps all Europeans are anti-
            American, and all Americans support racist, expansionist globalization so that
            they can buy affordable sneakers at Wall Mart which are made by Third World
            babies on death row.
            we know for sure that all pro-American governments represent corruption, all
            Poles lick footware and that all French people were Americans briefly, but that
            they all got over it.

            • chickenshorts ...and Amerrrikka is God's choice!!! 02.01.04, 21:51

              Therefore it's only right thing to do for a Christian to like Amerrikka!

              "And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable
              that an empire can rise without His aid?"
              Dick Cheney(and Lynn), on Christmas cards they mailed out, December, 2003)

              Be careful though, it's been tried before.

              "......The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty--
              of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the
              final decision. ... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have
              become once more true Germans." (Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933)



              • Gość: erwas ay wawanttabeee.......een aahmereekkkcka!!!!!!!!!! IP: *.sulphurcanyon.com 03.01.04, 05:56
                God talk to you much?
                since I'm an old gaffer, hard of hearing, I slowly lean towards the source of
                sound, my nervous, twitching lips forming: "sorry, what was that?" while my
                nostrils flare, sopping up subtle nuances of my victims gaseus emissions. deep
                within voluptuous folds of gathering skin my pale, veiled eyeballs dart
                hopefully, seeking cleevages or related features, leaning in, in...in...ear
                first, trembling fingers cupped around it.
                that is, more or less, why I moved to the High Desert. back in childhood, while
                I was still on the right track, uncorrupted, not yet quite messed up, I learned
                that to really get a proper one-on-one with God one had to seek vast empty
                deserts and then climb mountains once there.
                anyway, it took me a long time to get here, and I kind of forgot what I was
                going to say to God, and he seems to be kind of unfocussed and distant, and I
                like the scenery, the savages, the drugs, the thin, thin air, and the tigers,
                lions, and bears.
                now, you hissy little frogs cast down your designer berets upont the tortured
                earth; might yet stomp upon them with webbed foot or two in the face of the
                majesty of the USA. It is not a wholesome sight. take a deep gulp, amphibian.


                • chickenshorts Re: ay wawanttabeee.......een aahmereekkkcka!!!!! 03.01.04, 11:26
                  Gość portalu: erwas napisał(a):

                  > God talk to you much?

                  constantly, judging by the bubbles in the watertank.

                  > since I'm an old gaffer, hard of hearing, I slowly lean towards the source of
                  > sound, my nervous, twitching lips forming: "sorry, what was that?" while my
                  > nostrils flare, sopping up subtle nuances of my victims gaseus emissions.
                  deep
                  > within voluptuous folds of gathering skin my pale, veiled eyeballs dart
                  > hopefully, seeking cleevages

                  - eh? what was that?
                  do you mean 1 or 2:
                  cleavage   noun [count]
                  1 the space between a woman’s breasts
                  2 FORMAL a division between two groups of people or things ?-


                  >or related features,

                  I see, yes, well, I believe you've found whar you were looking for. 'Sulphur
                  Canyon' sounds just the place!

                  > leaning in, in...in...ear
                  > first, trembling fingers cupped around it.
                  > that is, more or less, why I moved to the High Desert. back in childhood,
                  while
                  >
                  > I was still on the right track, uncorrupted, not yet quite messed up, I
                  learned
                  >
                  > that to really get a proper one-on-one with God one had to seek vast empty
                  > deserts and then climb mountains once there.
                  > anyway, it took me a long time to get here, and I kind of forgot what I was
                  > going to say to God, and he seems to be kind of unfocussed and distant, and I
                  > like the scenery, the savages, the drugs, the thin, thin air, and the tigers,
                  > lions, and bears.

                  Are these carnivores somehow related to the drugs you like?

                  > now, you hissy little frogs cast down your designer berets upont the tortured
                  > earth; might yet stomp upon them with webbed foot or two in the face of the
                  > majesty of the USA. It is not a wholesome sight. take a deep gulp, amphibian.

                  why so emollient? Give it more! Come on, mon lurve!...

                  btw, erwas, which parts of US are referred to as the 'bible belt'?
                  • Gość: erwas Re: ay wawanttabeee.......een aahmereekkkcka!!!!! IP: *.sulphurcanyon.com 04.01.04, 05:30
                    > btw, erwas, which parts of US are referred to as the 'bible belt'?

                    one man's belt is another's noose
                    what do you want to learn, chicken s? this the kind of goegraphy that interests
                    you?

                    the "bible belt" is everywhere decent folk love Our Lord. Jesus died for your
                    sins too, you know. there is a bible belt streaching toward your threshold,
                    yearning to enter. be open to its dininely alluring, sinious thrusts.
                    cry: "enter, buckle and all!"

                    as for cleaving through life and death I see that you are a cold, unforgiving
                    fanatic with no compassion for slightest weakness (in others).

                    yes, sulphurcanyon is indeed an ordourous place. it is tight and narrow, with
                    thousand foot walls of red rock rising to the mandatory, blinding azure.
                    the naturally occuring pools of stinking hot water have been taken from the
                    Indians and are now hotly contested between the Maidens of the Precious Blood,
                    the Zen Buddists, Jemez Springs Village Council, Sisters of the Paraclete (Cor
                    Jesu), some homosexual sisters who run a Bed and Breakfast, and homeschooling
                    fundamentalists who own many Kalishnikovs.
                    deep in the woods the pools steam in the snow and are packed with deep-pink
                    bodies of neo hippies. naked!
                    while wafts of aroma drift heavily in some parts of the canyon unsuspecting
                    drivers from afar (even if their car windows are closed) glance at one another
                    with suprise.

                    check my spelling for me, will you.
                    • chickenshorts Re: ay wawanttabeee.......een aahmereekkkcka!!!!! 04.01.04, 15:09
                      Gość portalu: erwas napisał(a):


                      > one man's belt is another's noose

                      True, erwas, very true but I was more interested in learning if your nick of
                      woods falls within the said 'belt' than about its possible uses... For
                      instances, is teaching evolution scrapped in your daughter's school?


                      > the "bible belt" is everywhere decent folk love Our Lord.

                      Is Jerry Falwell considered decent falk? I came across a Christian of Jerry's
                      persuasion in one of the forums and can tell you that talking to him sent
                      shivers down my spine.

                      > Jesus died for your sins too, you know.

                      I doubt it. Besides, his death appears to accentuate the problem with sin, a
                      bit like maintaining bad lighting in the city... Anyway, let's turn to
                      something more interesting. Have you done any.. erm... creative writing?

                      > as for cleaving through life and death I see that you are a cold, unforgiving
                      > fanatic with no compassion for slightest weakness (in others).

                      That's just forum posturing. I am the very emodiment friendliness

                      > yes, sulphurcanyon is indeed an ordourous place. it is tight and narrow, with
                      > thousand foot walls of red rock rising to the mandatory, blinding azure.
                      > the naturally occuring pools of stinking hot water have been taken from the
                      > Indians and are now hotly contested between the Maidens of the Precious
                      Blood,
                      > the Zen Buddists, Jemez Springs Village Council, Sisters of the Paraclete
                      (Cor
                      > Jesu), some homosexual sisters who run a Bed and Breakfast, and homeschooling
                      > fundamentalists who own many Kalishnikovs.
                      > deep in the woods the pools steam in the snow and are packed with deep-pink
                      > bodies of neo hippies. naked!
                      > while wafts of aroma drift heavily in some parts of the canyon unsuspecting
                      > drivers from afar (even if their car windows are closed) glance at one
                      another
                      > with suprise.
                      >
                      > check my spelling for me, will you.
                      >
                      • chickenshorts Re: ay wawanttabeee.......een aahmereekkkcka!!!!! 04.01.04, 15:19
                        hit the wrong button, sorry
                        so, like I said
                        > I am the very emodiment friendliness

                        meaning 'embodiment of friendliness,' of course. And warmth and compassion...


                        > check my spelling for me, will you.

                        Stop being condenscending and I'll see what I can do, OK.

                        Regards
                        (I really enjoy your woozy musings. Do you use bong pipe?)
                          • chickenshorts Re: dark morbid 04.01.04, 18:25
                            Gość portalu: m napisał(a):

                            > twisted slavic souls tormented by Him in all corners of the planet

                            You've raised some excellent points here, sir.
                            Etymologicaly, the word Slav has some un-heroic connotations I believe. What
                            does Sclavus mean? Any Latin scholars around?

                            So, would it be fair to venture a theory that this 'soul' in your
                            '> twisted slavic souls tormented by Him '

                            is a sign of enslavement in 'Him' bollocks? Would it therefore be appropriate
                            to denounce katechism lessons for children as barbaric?
                            • Gość: awalk Re: Slav IP: *.warszawa.sdi.tpnet.pl 05.01.04, 20:53
                              chickenshorts napisał:
                              >Etymologicaly, the word Slav has some un-heroic connotations I believe. What
                              > does Sclavus mean?

                              To be absolutely true it has some nice ones too. For example according to the
                              explanation below Chick-slav would mean a famous chicken. KFC? :)

                              Slave
                              ...
                              ETYMOLOGY: Middle English sclave, from Old French esclave, from Medieval Latin
                              sclvus, from Sclvus, Slav (from the widespread enslavement of captured Slavs in
                              the early Middle Ages). See Slav.
                              WORD HISTORY: The derivation of the word slave encapsulates a bit of European
                              history and explains why the two words slaves and Slavs are so similar; they
                              are, in fact, historically identical. The word slave first appears in English
                              around 1290, spelled sclave. The spelling is based on Old French esclave from
                              Medieval Latin sclavus, “Slav, slave,” first recorded around 800. Sclavus comes
                              from Byzantine Greek sklabos (pronounced sklävs) “Slav,” which appears around
                              580. Sklavos approximates the Slavs' own name for themselves, the Slovnci,
                              surviving in English Slovene and Slovenian. The spelling of English slave,
                              closer to its original Slavic form, first appears in English in 1538. Slavs
                              became slaves around the beginning of the ninth century when the Holy Roman
                              Empire tried to stabilize a German-Slav frontier. By the 12th century
                              stabilization had given way to wars of expansion and extermination that did not
                              end until the Poles crushed the Teutonic Knights at Grunwald in 1410. •As far
                              as the Slavs' own self-designation goes, its meaning is, understandably, better
                              than “slave”; it comes from the Indo-European root *kleu–, whose basic meaning
                              is “to hear” and occurs in many derivatives meaning “renown, fame.” The Slavs
                              are thus “the famous people.” Slavic names ending in –slav incorporate the same
                              word, such as Czech Bohu-slav, “God's fame,” Russian Msti-slav, “vengeful
                              fame,” and Polish Stani-slaw, “famous for withstanding (enemies).”
                              • chickenshorts Re: Slav 05.01.04, 21:13
                                Gość portalu: awalk napisał(a):

                                > To be absolutely true it has some nice ones too. For example according to the
                                > explanation below Chick-slav would mean a famous chicken. KFC? :)

                                No sir, it wouldn't! It might only mean 'chicken fame' which is not what I'm
                                after. In the compound noun the first gives an aspect to the second or tells
                                you what the second is made of or for... I know you meant well but I'm not
                                really a chicken, I am more nickers like, see. Not of much use for the Colonel.

                                > •As
                                > far
                                > as the Slavs' own self-designation goes, its meaning is, understandably,
                                better
                                > than “slave”;

                                says it all, really... Who cares, anyway.
                              • Gość: m excellent, awalk! IP: 5.3.1R* / *.cache.pol.co.uk 07.01.04, 02:19
                                Pleasure.
                                However my last attempt at an intellectual line of defence as such against
                                a militant West Indian claiming monopoly on all suffering and pain (in the
                                arse) incurred as a result of "slavery" and the word itself... he simply
                                " whazzup wit u, skinny arse bitch,da wohman's mad, mohn..them white
                                bitches allova da place tulkin nunsense, mohn" bollocked me.

                                Words, words, words..what a waste of time!
                              • erwas Re: Slav 07.01.04, 02:31
                                Slavic names ending in –slav in
                                > corporate the same
                                > word, such as Czech Bohu-slav, “God's fame,” Russian Msti-slav, 
                                > 220;vengeful
                                > fame,” and Polish Stani-slaw, “famous for withstanding (enemies).

                                you missed Sekslaw, Coldslaw, Nieslaw and probably many more.

                      • Gość: erwas ah mereecka! IP: *.sulphurcanyon.com 05.01.04, 06:12
                        I was more interested in learning if your nick of
                        > woods falls within the said 'belt' than about its possible uses... For
                        > instances, is teaching evolution scrapped in your daughter's school?


                        according to the Pew Research Center report (American Political Landscape 2004)
                        eleven of the 12 most religious states are in the South (the other is West
                        Virginia which is kind of south-like anyway), and the 10 least religious states
                        are in the North and West. New Mexico qualifies as the West, but it is hard to
                        group it with other states in the region.
                        do they teach evolution in schools here?
                        they don't teach anything. neither evolution, creationism, math, english, or
                        nuffink. we have withdrawn our daughter from the school system this year and
                        joined the gun-toting fundamentalist homeschooling types (exept we're unarmed).
                        very time consuming, but sort of fun. now I know how to multiply and divide
                        fractions at last.
                        as an aside, the same report also mentiones that there is a two to one
                        advantage for the Republicans over the Democrats among white evangelicals;
                        while not so long ago they were split fairly evenly.
                        People under thirty are more likely to be secular than religious (a ray of hope
                        here).
                        Views on homosexuality, gay marriage, abortion, death penalty, race etc. have
                        become much more tolerant recently too; this also is a generational thing, with
                        the under 30s leading here once more.
                        the really scary thing with all these belts is the degree of growing
                        polarization. the Pew Report writes about the American right "evolving from its
                        past and from most of the world, especially in religious and military matters".
                        which brings us back in a neat circular fashion the Gallup-Europe's recent poll
                        naming the US as the second greatest threat to world peace (behind Israel).
                        > Is Jerry Falwell considered decent folk?
                        on the scale of things yes, almost.
                        but that is not what makes the US so unique. there are Leppers, Le Pens, and
                        countless other populist opportunists everywhere. what matters and makes it all
                        so interesting is that they are running the show here. well, not here in my
                        hovel, my valley, my belt.
                        • chickenshorts Re: ah mereecka! 05.01.04, 20:40
                          You've been very obliging, thank you.

                          As to your withdrawing your daughter from the 'educational' system, well, I've
                          always felt it could greatly benefit the parents. Fractions can be tricky,
                          especially the vulgar ones...
                          • erwas Re: ah mereecka! 10.01.04, 04:26
                            > As to your withdrawing your daughter from the 'educational' system, well,I've
                            > always felt it could greatly benefit the parents.

                            yes and no.

                            chickenshorts napisał:

                            > You've been very obliging, thank you.

                            now I have a question.
                            I now that in Poland you get arrested for even suggesting such a notion, but
                            how would this look in France or England? is home-schooling a permitted option
                            for parents
                            • Gość: m home schooling IP: 5.5R* / *.cache.pol.co.uk 10.01.04, 14:51
                              Yes, there is an option in England.
                              Not many take it up though. It can alienate your kid and it is mentally
                              exhausting for both sides. Besides you might have the odd authority
                              issues here and there too.
                              Insufficient levels of "respect" from the little brat on one hand and the
                              social services/local edu. authorities poking their nose in too.
                              There's also the pain of very rigorous quarterly asessments your offspring
                              has to go through.
                              Not worth it.
                              Put him/her through the drill.
                              It will make them stronger!
                              I higly recommend a ghetto school too.
                              Nothing builds your character better than being the only pale specimen
                              in the literal battlefield of the classroom (or better still , the school
                              canteen), and the statistics do not exlude the teacher .
                              That way there's a chance the kid might grow up "normal" (not a pitiful
                              mirror image of your weak self, the parent ) and you might learn a "thang"
                              too...
                              Where and how else would the both of you acquire some essential "cave
                              manners" and "urban survival skills"?
                              In the National Gallery?
                              • chickenshorts Re: home schooling 10.01.04, 19:41



                                >I now that in Poland you get arrested for even suggesting such a notion, but
                                >how would this look in France or England? is home-schooling a permitted option
                                >for parents

                                I'm not sure, really, butI think in France, like in Poland, it's a matter
                                of 'justification'. In other words, if there is a reason to justify such a move
                                then fine. Health reason could be one of them.


                                Gość portalu: m napisał(a):

                                > Yes, there is an option in England.
                                > Not many take it up though. It can alienate your kid and it is mentally
                                > exhausting for both sides. Besides you might have the odd authority
                                > issues here and there too.
                                > Insufficient levels of "respect" from the little brat on one hand and the
                                > social services/local edu. authorities poking their nose in too.
                                > There's also the pain of very rigorous quarterly asessments your offspring
                                > has to go through.
                                > Not worth it.
                                > Put him/her through the drill.
                                > It will make them stronger!
                                > I higly recommend a ghetto school too.
                                > Nothing builds your character better than being the only pale specimen
                                > in the literal battlefield of the classroom (or better still , the school
                                > canteen), and the statistics do not exlude the teacher .
                                > That way there's a chance the kid might grow up "normal" (not a pitiful
                                > mirror image of your weak self, the parent ) and you might learn a "thang"
                                > too...

                                ...like to grow into a fine 'lager lout' or successful 'football hooligan'?


                                > Where and how else would the both of you acquire some essential "cave
                                > manners" and "urban survival skills"?
                                > In the National Gallery?

                                Isn't Tate Modern a trendier spot?
                                • Gość: m Tate Modern IP: 5.5R* / *.cache.pol.co.uk 11.01.04, 01:04
                                  Yes, I suppose...more scenic location too.
                                  Good coffee. Dunno'bout the contents though...

                                  Right now it seems to be all happening in V&A (jazz nights and fashion
                                  shows etc)

                                  However THE place for the really forward thinking connoisseur is
                                  Business Design Centre in Islington...where with a bit of (bad) luck you
                                  might bump into "m" at the New British Artists this Thursday...
                                  • erwas Re: Tate Modern 12.01.04, 03:38
                                    > However THE place for the really forward thinking connoisseur is
                                    > Business Design Centre in Islington...where with a bit of (bad) luck you
                                    > might bump into "m" at the New British Artists this Thursday...

                                    too short notice, I'll never make it.
                                    but fill us in on what you saw, felt.
                                    in other words: a full report please.
                                • erwas Re: home schooling 12.01.04, 03:42
                                  > I'm not sure, really, butI think in France, like in Poland, it's a matter
                                  > of 'justification'. In other words, if there is a reason to justify such a
                                  > move then fine. Health reason could be one of them.

                                  who's health.

                              • erwas Re: home schooling 12.01.04, 04:46
                                > Yes, there is an option in England.
                                > Not many take it up though. It can alienate your kid and it is mentally
                                > exhausting for both sides.

                                that's 'cause the English are unevolved and with antlike fears of unknown
                                experiences outside of the Old Hive.
                                since homeschooling is popular and extensive here, homeschooling parents form
                                associations, individual parents often teach groups of homeschool pupils in
                                their own specialized areas, the kids get to meet at various events and have a
                                better quality of social life than many attending regular schools.
                                schools are often supportive of homeschooling parents and offer various
                                services to homeschooled pupils (sport, music, drama, after-school clubs etc.).
                                my precious little jewel is officially branded "gifted" which allows her to
                                spend even more time in school settings in Gifted Programs, and that way she
                                does not have to spend her time having crackers thrown in her face by the scum
                                and riff-raff in the rest of the school population.
                                what it takes all day to do at school we can get through in an hour and still
                                come out ahead. then we have the rest of the day to get on with our lives.

                                I take your point about survival skills, but missing out on a few of those is
                                less tragic than missing out on pursuing a passion. schools do flatten and
                                homogenize and there is no strenghth to be gained through going through
                                that "drill".

                                and she does not have to salute the stars and stripes every morning.



                                • chickenshorts Re: home schooling 12.01.04, 08:57
                                  erwas napisał:


                                  > that's 'cause the English are unevolved and with antlike fears of unknown
                                  > experiences outside of the Old Hive.
                                  > since homeschooling is popular and extensive here, homeschooling parents form
                                  > associations, individual parents often teach groups of homeschool pupils in
                                  > their own specialized areas, the kids get to meet at various events and have
                                  a
                                  > better quality of social life than many attending regular schools.
                                  > schools are often supportive of homeschooling parents and offer various
                                  > services to homeschooled pupils (sport, music, drama, after-school clubs
                                  etc.).
                                  > my precious little jewel is officially branded "gifted" which allows her to
                                  > spend even more time in school settings in Gifted Programs, and that way she
                                  > does not have to spend her time having crackers thrown in her face by the
                                  scum
                                  > and riff-raff in the rest of the school population.
                                  > what it takes all day to do at school we can get through in an hour and still
                                  > come out ahead. then we have the rest of the day to get on with our lives.

                                  and what happens then? These 'better'educated people emigrate? (You said it was
                                  an extensive & widespread practice.)Or do they only work in the welfare system
                                  caring for the 'normally' educated? One would've thought the USA was governed
                                  by Plato...

                                  > I take your point about survival skills, but missing out on a few of those is
                                  > less tragic than missing out on pursuing a passion. schools do flatten and
                                  > homogenize and there is no strenghth to be gained through going through
                                  > that "drill".
                                  >
                                  > and she does not have to salute the stars and stripes every morning.

                                  Good for her!

                                • Gość: m formal education IP: 5.3.1R* / *.cache.pol.co.uk 12.01.04, 13:11
                                  for once I will stand up in defense of the "islanders" here...they do "boldly
                                  go" into the unknown without fear of failure often severing the umbilical
                                  cord , but the ones unplugging their offspring from the matrix risk findng
                                  themselves in bohemian sort of fringe of the society where the inmates
                                  DO NOT interact with each other and the outside. You see the English is
                                  not a social animal...bit crippled this way...
                                  There are other options though:
                                  "Rudolf Steiner" ... (see my left nostril going up? wooden toys? nah,
                                  mate..COMPUTERS!!!)
                                  and then private schools, or move to a "decent passionate "country like
                                  Spain where the "little chica/chico" will have some "fear of God" put into
                                  her/him without worshipping the flag.
                                  Another option is travel, mind opening horizon widening blah blah.

                                  Do include martial arts in the curriculum, er, as well sexual education and
                                  marriage skills.

                                  I bow my head in respect but when the oestrogen levels are high we
                                  cannot tap into my motherly teaching resources...hence we both have to
                                  learn to "duck and dive" out in the "wilderness" on th edaily basis and just
                                  run the commentary at home...
                                  I am grateful for the knowledge I receive too.

                                  A propos..heard of "mahikari"?
                                  • erwas Re: formal education 13.01.04, 16:37
                                    I'll not bore you with the details of my situation.
                                    however, I'll just add that I am not an ideological homeschooler, even though I
                                    am impressed by some of the "philosophy". our circumstances are unique based
                                    upon a conflict with an off the track rural school district, which stubbornly
                                    refused to bend to my will. after this school year is over the brat will be
                                    reinserted back into the system. since she is so damned clever she is now
                                    taking tests to get scholarships for private schools. pay her own way, right?

                                    all your suggestions are of high quality and beyond reproach.

                                    mahikari?
                                    eastern oriental martial arts?
                                    we do, by the way, include martial arts in our curriculum. it is loosely based
                                    on the techniques perfected by Peter Sellars as inspector Clueseau. very
                                    destructive to fixtures and fittings in the home and it scares the pets. so we
                                    are looking for an upgrade.
                                    • Gość: m pets IP: 5.3.1R* / *.cache.pol.co.uk 14.01.04, 15:14
                                      May I suggest.. armadillo,
                                      "soft on the inside in a crunchy shell",
                                      fearless with a strong mental constitiution (doesn't give a shit)
                                      Aerodynamic shape favours all sort of violently levitating activities...
                                      ..and once your young's quite finished with the pouncing lessons, the
                                      animal presents you with high nutritional qualities.

                                      Have you any of those in the canyon?
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