For who would you vote in Poland

[sobieski010]

For which party would you vote here in Poland?
Me: I would love to vote for PD (very decent people but far too small to have
any influence) so then only PO remains.

[usenetposts]

I was happy that PiS won, and now I wish that people would let them get on with
it. They backed down on tax reductions which was a pig, but I am more than
certain PO would have done the same anyway.

[sobieski010]

Well actually I think PO is the only decent influential party left here.
Once again I would love to vote for PD, but what with 2% of the electorate...

[russh]

I think I would vote for PO, although from the little that I understand about
Polish politics they desperately need a Margaret Thatcher, and the PIS don't
have one.

Let's hope that the current Government either starts to be effective
economically, or gets the hell out of it!

The last thing they need is a Thatcher

[ianek70]

russh napisał:

> I think I would vote for PO, although from the little that I understand about
> Polish politics they desperately need a Margaret Thatcher, and the PIS don't
> have one.

With massive unemployment, a seriously divided and bitter society, the national
tongue up Washington's butt, prudery and conservatism round every corner, and
pompous all-knowing hypocrites in government, Poland already looks like
Thatcher's Britain.
The main difference, though, is that in PL there are fewer strikes,
demonstrations and riots.

[russh]

> With massive unemployment, a seriously divided and bitter society, the national
>
> tongue up Washington's butt, prudery and conservatism round every corner, and
> pompous all-knowing hypocrites in government, Poland already looks like
> Thatcher's Britain.
> The main difference, though, is that in PL there are fewer strikes,
> demonstrations and riots.

Sounds just like Britain when Thatcher came into power, not when she was in
power! They need a Thatcher very badly.

[ianek70]

So what did Thatcher's pompous, prudish and socially divisive conservatism do
to combat conservatism, prudery, social division and pomposity?
We know how she tackled unemployment - they simply changed the way it was
calculated (Labour conveniently didn't change it back). I'm surprised PiS
hasn't adopted this approach, and in PL the number of unemployed is simply the
number of folk without a job, rather than the number of folk within a certain
age, receiving a certain type of benefit and fulfilling a certain number of
arbitrarily invented conditions.
Thatcher also did a lot for inequality, blind faith in market forces and US
domination, although personally I'm not a fan of any of these so she shouldn't
have bothered.

On the other hand, Poles enjoy moaning, and I'm leaving anyway, so let them
have a Thatcher. It can be another little 80s ghetto in Eastern Europe -
Brezhnev in Minsk and Thatcher in Warsaw

[bluteau]

I already had the pleasure and it didn't make a difference

[varsovian]

I like the Democrats' ideas, but that Mazowiecki sends me up the wall. And he
wasn't against using his influence to help his son's business in unethical ways.

PO is the only decent party, but they act like complete wallies and don't
deserve to be the ruling party.

[sobieski010]

I think PO made big mistakes in the last campaign. Rokita for one thing was too
arrogant. And they changed their message to the voters several times - bad
mistake.
Tragic. They might have stopped the misery in which we find ourselves now.
But if I get my voter registration fixed, I will vote for them. For me they are
the only thing in Poland which stands between a dicatorship and a decent civic
society. (BUt I guess some people on this forum will translate this into NKVD
and other rubbish)
Someday the madness will stop. Someday Poland will emerge as a normally-run
country.

[ejmarkow]

I would lean towards PiS. So far, nothing immensely positive or negative has
occurred. Now let's see what that coalition can achieve.

[nasza_maggie]

I would vote for PPP but they don't exist anymore.

[sobieski010]

Wasn't that the Polish Beer Party or something? As I remember they even got into
parliament...

[ejmarkow]

Sobieski10, this was a good question and now I am interested in the final
tally. Can you compile and provide us here at this forum with the final results
of this survey? I'm curious as to how we stand in the aggregate. Thanks.

Cheers,

Eugene

[sobieski010]

As far as counting the votes concerns... a bit difficult because is voting
intention the same as voting?
Anyway it goes like this I think:
PPP: 1
PO: 3
PIS: 2

At least nobody for LPR or Samoobroona...

[marimax]

PO a good party, what a joke.
PO is a party of old commies and SB agents.
The only party that can maka a difference is UPR but it's leader acts like an
idiot and can not be taken seriously by many Polish people.
What this country really needs is AUGUSTO PINOCHET

[usenetposts]

marimax napisał:

> PO a good party, what a joke.
> PO is a party of old commies and SB agents.
> The only party that can maka a difference is UPR but it's leader acts like an
> idiot and can not be taken seriously by many Polish people.
> What this country really needs is AUGUSTO PINOCHET

What? Is he a real boy, now?

[ianek70]

usenetposts napisał:

> marimax napisał:

> > The only party that can maka a difference is UPR but it's leader acts lik
> e an
> > idiot and can not be taken seriously by many Polish people.
> > What this country really needs is AUGUSTO PINOCHET
>
> What? Is he a real boy, now?

Well, Pinochet did send death squads to murder irritating ex-pats...
But I do agree that Korwin-Mikke is an arse and fortunately even in the
colourful and laughable world of Polish politics he's generally ignored.

[marimax]

Yes it is unfortunate about Korwin because UPR has a programm that make sense.
All other parties are more or less socialist and are afraid of major changes.
As far as Augusto Pinochet is concerned, yes he did get rid of some communists.
Left wing controlled media say about 5000 people were killed so I guess that
the real number is closer to 1000-1500 people.
Pinochet is a great patriot and because of him Chile has the strongest economy
in South America.
Now for comparison how many people did Castro kill (nobody writes about his
killings)and did Cuba gain anything during his rule ????

[usenetposts]

Do you suppose that Augusto Pinochet knows the words of the national anthem of
his country or not?

[marimax]

It's not important.
The most important is to run the country well.

[ianek70]

marimax napisał:

> As far as Augusto Pinochet is concerned, yes he did get rid of some
communists.

He murdered people that he claimed were communists, his victims may not have
shared this opinion.

> Left wing controlled media say about 5000 people were killed so I guess that
> the real number is closer to 1000-1500 people.

Which media where? And why invent a figure of 1000-1500 when you could just as
easily say 5-10?

> Now for comparison how many people did Castro kill (nobody writes about his
> killings)and did Cuba gain anything during his rule ????

Castro is also a paranoid dictator and a lot has been written about the
brutality of his regime.
So what's your point?
That someone who murders 10,000 people is much nicer than someone who murders
10,003 people? According to that logic Martial Law in Poland was better than
Piłsudski's coup d'etat, because it killed fewer people.

My point of view.....

[b00g13]

Yeah Korwin Mikke is similar to Pinochet. He also would like to have instant
executions (plus those made in public, on a city markets), but beyond this he is
a dreamer and his political ideas are good for 15 yo idealists and young
anarchist. You cant run a country on a dream and he's not even as much
convincing as Thomas Moore was.

But, as somebody said once - if it cant be better let it be at least funnier....



About points of view. I dont remember who said that: Wise man has an intelectual
horizonts, but they can start to shrink. And if they shrink, they eventually
reach a point. Point of view.

[chomskybornagain1]

it's 4 P's Polska Partia Przyjaciół Piwa )) (in free translation: Polish
Beer-lovers Party)

[ianek70]

chomskybornagain1 napisał:

> it's 4 P's Polska Partia Przyjaciół Piwa )) (in free translation: Polish
> Beer-lovers Party)

Wasn't that that cretin Bubel?

[sobieski010]

I wonder what all the innocent victims of the Pinochet regime (CIA-backed of
course) would have said? The ones dropped out of planes above the ocean -
alive - thew ones held in the Santiago Stadion for days and then tortured and
killed> The ones having disappeared in terrible torture chambers?

[b00g13]

> For which party would you vote here in Poland?

For my classroom mate's party. Hell of a fun.

[ianek70]

I would never vote for any party that tolerates priests in state nurseries and
schools.
Kicking them out would be the first step towards making Poland a normal,
secular, sane society but none of the mainstream parties have the balls to do
it.
So I wouldn't vote for anyone.

Racja:
app.org.pl

Anti-Catholicism shows it's ugly face again?

[ejmarkow]

ianek wrote:

"I would never vote for any party that tolerates priests in state nurseries and
schools. Kicking them out would be the first step towards making Poland a
normal, secular, sane society but none of the mainstream parties have the balls
to do it."

Oh, how nice. After a few weeks of mostly dead silence on this forum, the ugly
anti-Catholic advocates are once against coming out of the woodwork and raising
hell, or is it the result of hot weather? Ianek, I respect your intelligence
and frequent enjoyable discussion, but some of your one-sided religious views
aren't appreciated. Religion shouldn't be discussed on this forum in such a
degrading manner, whether it be about Catholics, Muslims, Jews, or Protestants.
Dave has mentioned several times that nothing personally offensive should be
made on this forum. I guess that golden rule has been discarded and is now
history, eh? Ianek, try making the same comment about Rabbis for example and
you will have your bottom kicked inside out by the JDL, AJC, ADL, and WJC and
receive VIP status in their black-book. Say something about a Muslim, and you
might find yourself either blown up or in pieces somewhere the next morning. Of
course, you wouldn't dare...and your thread would just be promptly deleted
anyway. But Catholics...no...they are too silent to revolt or protest such
comments, so this makes them an easy target.

Here is another nice statement by 'firemouse':

"Everybody knows that calling a politician "right wing" or "conservative" or
(OMG!) "Catholic" spreads fear in a heart of a dutiful vote holder."
forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=29887&w=45393595&a=45506753
Repulsive comment...another Catholic lover I see! There seems to be a high
correlation between anti-Catholicism and the three pseudonyms Ianek70,
Firemouse, and Sobieski, or is it merely just a coincidence, or the same
person, or the same circle of drinking/working buddies? Please perform a search
on this forum and you will see what I mean. Dave, are they by any chance
friends of yours? No offense, just asking. If you would really like to see if
all three of those pseudonyms are one person, I suggest you contact the 'Jabba'
who works for GW. He can easily tell you if the IP addresses match, or if they
originate from a distinctly similar area, because 'the man' has access to all
of our IP addresses. You see, GW has the right to trace an individual's IP
address if abusive behavior is detected on the forums.

So Dave, you (or an administrator, it doesn't make a difference) deleted an
entire thread...
(see Maggies post:"ps: I was looking for the post by marcus_anglikiem on Israel
(?) has it been removed???"
forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=29887&w=45506254
...started by Marcus because it was most likely deemed to be politically
incorrect and offensive to some. If so, then why are such prejudice comments
against priests and the Catholic church allowed on this forum while others
aren't? You and the administrators seem to allow the criticism or defamation of
one religion, but not of another - a form of favoritism or discrimination? I
have no problem with constructive religious discussion, 'only' if all religions
are fair game on an equal basis and the related text not offensive to anyone.
However, when other religions are preferred and favored over another, then
something just isn't morally correct here. Am I the only one that notices this
discrepancy on the FLIP forum?

[minimus]

its the heat Eugene, isn't it?? Try to calm down and dont start a which hunt.

[bluteau]

I partially agree with Eugene. Maybe he was a bit touchy in his post, but
essentially he made a valuable point.
I don't believe that Ianek, Firemouse and Sobieski are one person, but that's
not important. What is important is that the moderator of this forum allows
posts which insult, degrade and slander Catholics and the Catholic faith and
church. Eugene was perfectly right in pointing out that Dave is inconsistent in
his policies towards tolerance, or if you prefer, in his policies towards PC. He
will censor a post which has anti-semetic, anti-Israel sentiments, possibly he
censored posts of an anti-muslim nature. Why allow anti-catholic posts? Perhaps
because Dave shares (partially or fully) Ianek's views and feelings?
All in all, this leads me to wonder why an individual who is so much against
Catholics and Catholicism would choose to settle in a predominantly Catholic
country.

[ejmarkow]

minimus wrote:

> "its the heat Eugene, isn't it?? Try to calm down and dont start a which
hunt."

It's no witch hunt Minimus. Just pointing out a clear pattern of anti-Catholic
postings by certain individuals on this forum. It has been happening for too
long now, both on this forum and in the mainstream liberal-owned press in
Poland and abroad as well. These comments against Catholics seem to extend (in
frequency and similar content) even beyond what the chief Rabbi of Warsaw
unfortunately experienced when a lowly cretin yelled out an offensive slogan to
him. When this occurred, Reuters pumped out this news story to every single
newspaper in the world in record breaking time and it was well publicized the
following hour, thus placing Poland in an unfair negative spotlight for a
single uncommon act of rudeness. Was this considered a witchhunt Minimus? The
world media had Poland on it's knees practically begging for mercy for such a
sorry, isolated incident. Such negative publicity wasn't deserved. Here on this
forum, anything remotely considered to be anti-semitic is immediately
denounced, censored, or removed, even if it can be proven and construed as
honest criticism without the original intention to offend anyone. Of course,
when it comes to anti-Catholicism, the perpetrators and instigators on this
forum who hide behind their pseudonyms take comfort and great pride in
ridiculing priests and the church in Poland, without any remorse at all. What
hurts is that most of the participants, especially the moderators and
administrators of this forum (and GW itself) are mysteriously silent on the
matter, with their heads turned the opposite way. This sadly indicates their
implicit support of such ridicule. You just don't see anti-Catholic statements
being denounced in the world press or on this forum with the same vigor. It
doesn't happen. Different standards for different religions? Sure seems like
it. So Minimus, spare me any sarcastic affiliations of a 'witch hunt' with
Kaczynski's government, if that was your intended purpose. I think my comments
are more than fair...and I don't hide.

bluteau wrote:

> "I partially agree with Eugene. Maybe he was a bit touchy in his post, but
essentially he made a valuable point."

Thank you for at least partially recognizing the need for such a discussion.
Yes, I was touchy and for good reason. I'm sure many others feel the same as
well.

> All in all, this leads me to wonder why an individual who is so much against
Catholics and Catholicism would choose to settle in a predominantly Catholic
country.

I agree. It makes me wonder why even live in this country if the overwhelming
Catholic faith poses a major threat to their philosophy and lifestyle? Well,
one reason is, many are expats that came here to Poland for an attractive
international job offer and relocated. An executive position, acceptable
salary, or valuable international experience in their eyes will always take
precedent over the culture and majority religion of the country they chose to
live in. Never mind the saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". Again,
fair criticism is acceptable, but blind hatred cannot be tolerated. The same
standards of respect, tolerance, and critique should be applied to every
religion and ethnic group with no exceptions.

[minimus]

I'll be carefull not to heat up this debate too much. I'm almost 100% with
Ianek on this one. Catholic faith is being shoved down our throats in Poland on
far too many occassions. Religion teaching at primary school is on of such
case. Any criticism of it (Catholic presence in various aspects of life) meets
with a reaction similar to yours. Your previous post was a big surprise to me.
I don't think Ianek said anything specifically anti-Catholic. You just blew
your top off like a histerical mocher lady who just swiched off her radio for a
moment. My reference to witch hunt perhaps should not be taken too seriously
but it just reminds me of the good old days that anyone who had a different
opinion than the church could be excomunicated or burnt. If some Catholics try
to influence other ppl's way of life it does not surprise me than ppl object to
it.
On a separete note: one of the problems in Poland is that most people are
unable to agree to disagree. I hope you have not been here lond enough to
forget how to do it.
As far as the moderator of this forum is concerned, I agree with you to some
extent. But than again I'm not very surprised as most religious people, I have
met at least, feel strongly about their religion and they let others know about
it. Regardless of whether they are Catholic, Protestant, or something else.

Regards

[bluteau]

>Catholic faith is being shoved down our throats in Poland on
>far too many occassions {...}

By who and why do you let them? I've heard that slogan too many times already on
this forum and I find it strange. No one has tried to shove anything down mine
in the 12 years I've lived here. Just lucky? I think not.

[ianek70]

bluteau napisała:

> >Catholic faith is being shoved down our throats in Poland on
> >far too many occassions {...}
>
> By who and why do you let them?

All schools and public buildings are full of crucifixes. Almost all babies are
christened - some for religious reasons, most just out of blind conformism.

My daughter was christened, even though there are no practising Catholics in
the family. I'm a tolerant person, so I signed the form allowing them to carry
out this empty ritual. Under "religion" I wrote "none", but they sent it back
saying non-Catholics have to write "non-believer". I told them to sod off and
write whatever they want, since it's meaningless to me anyway.

She started being brainwashed at nursery at age 4, even though it's illegal in
Poland to brainwash under-5s. I objected, but her mother is a cretinous bitch
and signed the permission slip.

Church holidays are also state holidays, and they get days off school to
prepare for their 1st communion, rekolekcja and now papal visits. This means
that in practice it is the Church which decides when children go to school. TV
shows the same sentimental patriotic films on both church and secular holidays.

I didn't go to her first (and so far only) communion, just as I wasn't at her
christening. She still gets religia at school, for the same pathetic reason (I
quote: "she can't be the only one that doesn't go"). I don't object any more,
because she's an intelligent girl and can see the difference between the
katechetka's utopian gibberings and the the real world. Pani katechetka says
you have to go to church, I don't go because I don't believe in gods, Mummy
doesn't go because she's just another cowardly hypocrite, one of millions - an
unmarried mother who kisses the arse of an organisation which condemns her.
Talk about feeding the hand that bites you...
In fact, I'm quite pleased that my daughhter's marks for RE are getting worse
(it's supposedly optional, but the grades are on kids' report cards). This year
she only got a "good", much better than the szóstki she got for absolutely
everything in nursery, including her drawing of Mary on the cross.

Civilised countries do not build monuments to people who are still alive, or
punish people who call a sick old man "old" or "sick". Most Poles tolerate the
Church's overprivileged status - either because they themselves are Catholics,
or because they know they can't change things.

There are laws against offending religious feelings in Poland. Almost any fact,
opinion or statement is offensive to someone's religious feelings, and the
doctrine of any given religion is offensive to believers of most other
religions. In practice, only people who believe (or pretend to believe) in the
official state religion are protected against heretical thoughts.

[bluteau]

Ok Ian, there are crucifixes over doors in public institutions. Nobody forces
you to recognise them or to kneal down in front of them or say a prayer. As much
as there may be hypocrisy behind these crosses over doors, they're very easy to
ignore. I know a lot of people who hang horse-shoes over doors and it doesn't
seem to cause offence.
There are crucifixes in schools also, but that's just about as much religion as
I've seen there. Religion classes are optional (more and more children do not
attend, such as mine, and they are not ostracized). My children are not and have
never been brainwashed by their nursery or school. They haven't the faintest
idea about religion, Catholic or otherwise and no one has tried to "show them
the light". I didn't marry in church, my kids were not baptised and we've never
set foot in a church (ok, maybe as tourists somewhere) and no one has batted an
eyelash over it. If you chose to involve your daughter in the rites of the Roman
Catholic Church as a sign of tolerance, you shouldn't be bitching about it now.
You've made your bed Ian.
I also disagree with most of the Catholic Church's views, policies and
doctrines, as well as with the views, policies and doctrines of other religions.
Because of this, I just stay away from it and ignore it. Before I came to Poland
I knew very well what I was getting into. Sure, some things bug me about this
place, for a variety of reasons, but I chose, as you did, to make this my home.
I have to accept certain things because they are not going to change just for my
sake, or for yours. As far as religion goes generally, it's a hard thing to
escape. Not too many nations are free from the influences of its religion. If
you're looking for a more secularised state, try the Czech Republic.

[ianek70]

bluteau napisała:

> Ok Ian, there are crucifixes over doors in public institutions. Nobody forces
> you to recognise them or to kneal down in front of them or say a prayer. As
muc
> h
> as there may be hypocrisy behind these crosses over doors, they're very easy
to
> ignore. I know a lot of people who hang horse-shoes over doors and it doesn't
> seem to cause offence.

Horse-shoes are a matter of personal choice. People buy them themselves or
steal them from dead horses, they don't demand that taxpayers provide millions
of them.
If an opinion poll showed that more people read horoscopes than go to church
would we have to subsidise Mystic Meg and other astrological charlatans in
every school?

> never been brainwashed by their nursery or school. They haven't the faintest
> idea about religion, Catholic or otherwise and no one has tried to "show them
> the light". I didn't marry in church, my kids were not baptised and we've
never
> set foot in a church (ok, maybe as tourists somewhere) and no one has batted
an
> eyelash over it. If you chose to involve your daughter in the rites of the
Roma
> n
> Catholic Church as a sign of tolerance, you shouldn't be bitching about it
now.

That's easy to say, but when you're faced with an entire family (well, half of
one) insisting that since all the neighbours are sad, worthless hypocrites then
they want to be sad, worthless hypocrites too, then it's a fine and noble act
to say "personally I don't give a shit".
This, of course, is only a problem in Poland. My sister had a son a few years
ago and wondered aloud if she should have him christened. She doesn't go to
church, so this caused a huge argument with my mother, who does go to church
and accused her quite rightly of being a sad worthless hypocrite.

I will continue to bitch because it's my daughter who's being subjected to this
propaganda. The Polish church is an arrogant bloodsucking bureaucracy which
takes and takes, but gives almost nothing.
Again, this is not an anti-Catholic statement. I admire a lot of what the
Scottish Catholic church does, even though I disagree with almost everything it
says, and as I've written before there are many priests in Poland who do a lot
of good in very difficult circumstances, I respect them, and I respect anybody
who can explain what they believe in and why. But the Polish Catholic Church as
an institution does so much harm to society with its arrogance and constant
demands, and I just don't understand why folk tolerate this. They mostly
believe in God, so obviously they're not going to reject the church as such,
but why let it interfere in everything?

> I have to accept certain things because they are not going to change just for
m
> y
> sake, or for yours.

I live here, I contribute to Polish society, I was brought up in a free,
democratic country, I'm intelligent and articulate, so if something pisses me
off I'll criticise it. If something needs changing I'll loudly demand that it
gets changed, even if I know it won't be.
I'm not going to sit quietly just because I'm not Polish. There are thousands
of Poles in Scotland and I hope they complain, criticise and debate more than
they do in Poland.

[bluteau]

But Ian, what are you doing to try to change things you don't agree with? Yes,
you certainly do complain a lot. Not only about the Church and it's apparent
far-reaching influence, but about Poles and Poland in general. I could be wrong,
but I get the distinct feeling you're just fed up with living here. Fair enough.
You have a perfect right, I even sympathise. It's not the easiest country to
live in, especially if you've grown up in the West. If what is happening here,
or what this country is founded on (whether you like it or not), irritates you
so much, you have only a few options: leave, develop ulcers fighting with it,
ignore it or accept it. Calling Catholics hypocrites while you've involved your
daughter in the machinations of the Church in order to avoid friction with the
in-laws doesn't make you much better.
Saying that you live here, contribute and pay taxes doesn't entitle you to
anything special. Non-Catholics, or rather those who wish not to put up with the
consequences of a Catholic state, are a minority. Sure you can gripe, sure you
can criticise out loud. But if that's all your doing, what's the point?
Maybe It is all just "easy for me to say". But like I said before, I don't think
it's sheer luck. Ignoring certain things is helpful and not allowing anyone to
ram anything down my throat is essential.

[minimus]

Do you check your mail box at gazeta.pl Ianek?

[ejmarkow]

Ianek70,

It's sounds like you are simply feeling bitter, for whatever reason, living in
Poland and venting your anger at and blaming, non-stop, the Roman Catholic
Church for any misfortunes. Nobody really knows deep inside why you harbor such
hate and anger, it's your personal business. Complaining won't really help
unless you do something concrete about it. A suggestion would be to pack your
bags and go back to your country of origin. If I were feeling so bitter living
here, I would have left for New York City a long time ago instead of finding a
scapegoat. You called your daughter's mother a "cretinous bitch". Well, it
seems more like internal family conflict rather than one with the church.

The church never forces any baptism or communion on a child. It's up to the
parents to allow it. You wrote "I'm a tolerant person, so I signed the form
allowing them to carry out this empty ritual to allow her to be baptised and
have holy communion". Blame yourself, and not the church. You signed the form
and you never had to nor were forced to. The church certainly never 'forced'
this upon you and your family. Rather than being a tolerant person as you
claim, you should have been a more 'wise' person by not signing the form. And
it's not an empty ritual. Every religion has it's rituals. However, you seem to
be focusing only on the RC Church.

> All schools and public buildings are full of crucifixes. Almost all babies
> are christened - some for religious reasons, most just out of blind
> conformism.

As I mentioned in my posts, Poland isn't the only country where religion
garners strong influence in public life. Go to Israel, and you will see Magen
Davids and Mezzuzahs all over schools and public buildings as well. All Jewish
born male babies susbsequent to their 8th day of birth undergo a Brit Milah
(BRIT MEE-lah) which is the covenant of circumcision. The ritual circumcision
of a male Jewish child on the 8th day of his life or of a male convert to
Judaism. This ritual is frequently referred to as a Bris. Is this also
an 'empty' ritual Ianek? Again, why do I make the comparison? To show that
every country has it's religious traditions. It's not out of 'blind
conformism', but tradition and respect for a given religion.

Ianek, I won't bother replying to the rest of your ranting and raving about the
Catholic Church. You have your opinion about it and you seem set with that.
Either live with it, or it's better to leave it.

Cheers.

Church and State: Poland and Israel

[ejmarkow]

Minimus:

> "I'll be carefull not to heat up this debate too much. I'm almost 100% with
Ianek on this one. Catholic faith is being shoved down our throats in Poland on
far too many occassions. Religion teaching at primary school is on of such
case."

Sorry, the Catholic faith is 'not' being shoved down anyone's throat here in
Poland. If you are one of many expats that chose to live in Poland at your own
discretion, it is you who decided to live in a country that probably has the
largest and most faithful Catholic population in the world. You came into the
house and opened the door yourself Minimus (if you are an expat), and you
should have known what to expect here as far as religion, customs, faith, and
culture are concerned. It was no surprise if you did you homework prior to
settling down here. I have lived in Poland for over 4 years now, and nobody has
forced the Catholic religion upon me. I do not attend mass on a regular basis,
and nobody really criticizes me for it, and that saying alot in a small
village. It's true, one cannot but help but notice religion's strong presence
everywhere you go due to the large role it plays here in society.

Let's compare the teaching of religion in Poland's public schools, the
influence of religion on state and governmental affairs, to that of Israel for
a fair comparison (Jews also represent a significant majority religion in
Israel, and keep in mind, it was founded as "The Jewish State") and for sake of
intelligent argument. In Poland, since the Catholic religion is strongly
embedded in it's culture and traditions and the overwhelming majority of its
citizens practice Catholicism, it is taught in public schools with no need seen
for a separate Catholic school. In the USA, I attended public school from 3rd
grade and up. Religion was a seperate issue, and for Catholics who wished to
attend religious instruction, they were given permission to attend 'release
time' after school was over. Release time gave a student the chance to learn
about Catholic teachings outside of the public school system. However, the USA
is much different than Poland. The Catholic population doesn't make up over 95%
of the population as it does in Poland. In Poland, the Catholic religion is
practically inseparable from public life. The same goes for Israel. Judaism is
part of public life and it really isn't separated between the church and state
there. So, why does Poland get bad press for something that is strongly evident
in another country? You try to create the impression that only in Poland is
religion dictating the lives of the people. Now please learn about another
country with a similar situation, Israel. Take the following passage as a good
example of just how intergrated Judaism and religion really is in the public
school system and public life in Israel (brackets do not represent my comments
below):

"In America, religion has been (rightfully, in our opinion) pushed out of the
public sector. But here it's part of it. What happens to the non-Jews? Well,
public life is separated, beginning with the schools. The state funds, and
children are tracked into, three school systems based on their religion:
religious (for orthodox Jews), secular (this is where Emma is), and Arabic. (We
are told the orthodox schools receive the most largesse because the orthodox
political party is politically very powerful.) Even in the secular Jewish
schools, though, the students are required to study a significant amount about
the Torah and Jewish history. And in addition to Hanukah productions and other
holiday activities, children also light Sabbath candles in Emma's class every
Friday. So, even secular Jews have ingrained Jewish customs and traditions.
Indeed, some of our secular friends say that this is exactly why they aren't
orthodox: "We're Jewish and everybody around us is Jewish, so why do I have to
go to temple to be Jewish?"
Source:
www.cs.washington.edu/homes/notkin/istories/israel4.html
As you see, in public (secular) schools in Israel, students study a significant
part of the Torah (no different than in Poland where students learn teachings
from the bible). Hanukah traditions and Jewish customs are also an integral
part of public school life, just like Christmas and Easter traditions are part
of the public school system in Poland. Every Friday, Sabbath candles are lit in
class in public school in Israel. And in those public schools are some gentiles
as well.

Here are some interesting quotes from the article, "Freedom of Religion in
Israel", by Prof. Shimon Shetreet. It sheds much more light on the concept of
separation of religion and state, and to the extent it really is separate.

"It should be noted that, irrespective of state recognition of a particular
religion, the religious beliefs of the majority of the population inevitably
affect the life of the state. In the United States, for instance, this
phenomenon is reflected in the prescription of Sunday as the weekly day of
rest. By contrast, in Israel it is Saturday, and the Jewish festivals are also
rest days. (The right is reserved to non-Jews to choose the rest day customary
among them.) In Israel, the phenomenon is also manifested in the status enjoyed
by the Chief Rabbis."

"Religion and State in Israel: When Benjamin Ze'ev Herzl dreamt about the state
of the Jewish nation, he had the vision of separation of state and religion.
However, this vision has not become the reality. There is no separation of
religion and state in Israel. At the same time, there is no recognized religion
in the accepted sense. Some have argued that the peculiar nature of Judaism,
which embodies a pattern of daily life and not merely a set of religious
dogmas, and which intermingles religious and national elements, is not
conducive to separation of religion and state. As David Ben-Gurion puts
it, "The convenient solution of separation of church and state, adopted in
America not for reasons which are anti-religious but on the contrary because of
deep attachment to religion and the desire to assure every citizen full
religious freedom, this solution, even if it were adopted in Israel, would not
answer the problem."

"Israeli law, at present, provides examples of coercion of religious law that
are not accepted norms within Israeli society. The application of Jewish law to
marriage and divorce, and the subjection of citizens and residents to the
exclusive jurisdiction of the religious courts in such matters, is an improper
coercive enforcement of a religious norm. And the very necessity to marry
before a religious authority results in a number of restrictions of wider
ambit. A woman who has left the faith loses property rights. The marriage of a
Cohen, a man whose descent is traditionally traced to the ancient priesthood
and a divorcee is forbidden. None of these matters are to be found in any
statute."

"State and Religion in Israel: Challenges and Problems: The population's
religious needs are supplied by authorities established by law (the religious
councils), budgets are allocated for religious purposes, and there is a
Minister of the Cabinet responsible for religious affairs. The religion's
involvement in the state's matters is expressed, for example, in the fact that
kosher food is by law provided in IDF (Israeli Defense Forces), and in the
government facilities, and special orders in the matters of religion were set
in the IDF. Many laws are of religious nature, such as the laws limiting the
raising of swine, or the laws forbidding the public showing of leaven (hametz)
in Passover. This situation causes a continuous debate. There are scholars who
claim that the lack of separation results in the abs

[ejmarkow]

"...absence of "freedom from religion", which is, as described above, a
fundamental value in a democratic state, and in the system of fundamental civil
rights. Thus, every citizen in Israel is subject to the authority of religious
institutions in matters of marriage and divorce even against his will. There is
no civil alternative for religious marriage. The situation creates
difficulties, especially when religion forbids the marriage of a couple (such
as in the case of a divorced woman and a Cohen), but also in the case of a
secular couple that refuses to marry in a religious ceremony. This
legislature's choice of an exclusive form of religious marriage violates
freedom of marriage, but also freedom from religion, because it obliges the
couple to get the services of a religious agency in its most intimate
hour.Another example of the deprivation of the freedom from religion which
results from the lack of separation, can be found in the subject of
the "Sabbath" (Saturday) the day of rest, and especially concerning the issue
of opening businesses on the Sabbath. Until 1990, the law authorized the
municipalities to regulate the opening and closing of shops, workshops, cinemas
and other places of public entertainment and to decide the opening and closing
hours on holidays. According to this law, many municipal bylaws were enacted,
which forbade the opening of businesses on the Sabbath. This bylaw was reviewed
in the court and was declared void, because it limited the freedom of religion
(which also includes the freedom not to believe); this limitation can only be
effected by the authorization of the legislature (the Knesset). In response to
this decision, the Government, which was supported by a coalition composed also
of religious parties, advanced an amendment to the Municipalities Ordinances,
that in fact reversed the court's decision, and allowed the municipalities to
forbid businesses' opening on the Sabbath."

"This development in the law has shown that the lack of separation between law
and religion enables the legislature, influenced by political considerations to
command the support of the religious parties in the Knesset to diminish the
civil rights and freedom from religion."

Source:
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/freedom.html
Minimus, religious influence in public life in Poland is obviously not a unique
phenomenon. You have just seen a similar comparison (Poland and Israel) and
cannot discount the fact that in certain countries where religious faith and
tradition are strong, religion ultimately overlaps into public life.

> "Any criticism of it (Catholic presence in various aspects of life) meets
with a reaction similar to yours. Your previous post was a big surprise to me.
I don't think Ianek said anything specifically anti-Catholic."

My reaction was respectfully stated and not 'hysteria' as you claim. You must
be surprised that someone finally stood up and pointed out that Catholics are
being slandered on this forum. So, don't be surprised. You fail to mention that
even the slightest criticism of anther religion resulted in 'total removal' of
a thread and individual postings. The same has never been done for statements
about Catholics that appear to be negative in content.

> "You just blew your top off like a histerical mocher lady who just swiched
off her radio for a moment."

It's your impression and you're entitled. I only stated the clear facts and how
the owner and moderators of the FLIP forum treat religious issues differently.

> "On a separete note: one of the problems in Poland is that most people are
unable to agree to disagree. I hope you have not been here lond enough to
forget how to do it."

How convenient. This is only a thought up stereotype and generalization of
yours. In Poland, like anywhere else, public debate is healthy on most issues,
whether Poles like the topic or not.


Cheers.

[ejmarkow]

www.cs.washington.edu/homes/notkin/istories/israel4.html
Relevant Quote:

(In Israel...) Note: Brackets below not mine.
"It's not unusual for supermarket clerks to wish us, "Shabbat Shalom" when we
shop on Friday mornings. The six-pointed Star of David is ubiquitous: on
ambulances, in food stores, and even (we kid you not) the little camphor in the
urinals at David's work are Jewish stars. Mezzuzahs (traditional prayer holders
on doorposts) are everywhere, too: at the car rental place, on every door at
IBM (in standard big blue and white), in our rented house, and of course at the
kindergarten."

Doesn't this remind you so much of Poland, where the crucifix and Virgin Mary
are ubiquitious. You will find them in stores, public schools, the sejm, in
buses, and almost everywhere you go. To me, it isn't offensive and I don't find
that to be a problem in a country where the majority of the population, over
95%, are Catholics. I came here to live in Poland voluntarily and at my own
will. I wasn't forced or invited to live here by anyone. Again, it's part of a
culture where religion is overwhelming. I must respect Poland's culture, just
like visitors to Israel should repsect it's traditions, religion, and culture.

I think these are very fair comparisons, two of the most religious countries in
the world today.

Cheers.

[minimus]

Eugene,
your post is waaaay too long. I read only first and last paragraphs. Maybe I'll
read the rest later, but from the two I read I see that you missed completety.
I am not an expat. I'm born and bred in Poland. I lived outside for quite a few
years in my late teens (starting from that is). It broadened my hirizons a
little, but had I lived in Poland all my life I still would not agree with you.

[ejmarkow]

Minimus,

I didn't miss at all because I did mention a disclaimer in my previous post
("if you are an expat"):

"If you are one of many expats that chose to live in Poland at your own
discretion, it is you who decided to live in a country that probably has the
largest and most faithful Catholic population in the world. You came into the
house and opened the door yourself Minimus (if you are an expat), and you
should have known what to expect here as far as religion, customs, faith, and
culture are concerned."

My comparisons between Poland and Israel describing the strong influence of
religion in the state and public sector are essential for a better
understanding of the important role religion plays in the daily life and
politics of both countries. They each have immense majorities in their
respective religions, and religion more often than not heavily influences all
aspects of life. It is part of the culture in both countries.

Minimus, of course, you may have a different opinon just as others and myself
do. This is why we are discussing the influence of the Catholic church in
Poland, and that is why I brought into the conversation, the role of Judaism in
Israel. The similarities just cannot be ignored.

Ok, so you are born and raised here. You may be one of a small group of native
Poles that feel the church has too much influence in Polish society. That's ok
if you feel that way, because it's your opinion based on your perceptions and
life experience. Let's continue the discussion, and let me know what you think
after reading the full text I posted.

Cheers.

[minimus]

Yes, but your disclaimer is one word, out of how many in the whole post??
And you are not going to pull me into a discussion how it is in Israel. I have
never been there, and don't know much about it, so I don't understand it. And
frankly I am surprised you bring it into this discussion. Why should we care
about whats happaning in the state of Israel?

[ejmarkow]

Minimus wrote:
> And frankly I am surprised you bring it into this discussion. Why should we
> care about whats happaning in the state of Israel?

I answered that in my last post, so I'll answer it again. Both Poland and
Israel have more in common than most people realize. For one, religion is a
major influence throughout both societies, playing an integral role in the
government, education, politics, law, and much more. Priests teach in Polish
public schools, and there are Rabbis teaching in Israeli public schools. Since
there are some on this forum who criticize the immense influence of the
Catholic Church in Polish society, I brought into the debate a country (Israel)
with a very similar situation, but different dominant religion. As I mentioned
previously, both countries are amongst the most religious in the world in each
respective spectrum, Catholic and Jewish. Both countries have introduced
religion and traditions into public schools, and both have integrated religious
values into public holidays and days of rest. Finally, both have numerous
religious symbols mounted in every possible space throughout their countries.
However, both religions obviously have different teachings, one from the bible,
the other from the torah.

So, the next time anyone has harsh feelings or regrets of the influential role
the Roman Catholic church plays in Polish society, think about Israel as well.
What Moslem country would you think is society influenced the most by the
Koran? I really don't know, perhaps someone else could answer that question.

[minimus]

oh ok, a good argument. Just as good as if somebody complains about harsh
treatment by say cops (e.g for riding their bike at night with no lights), and
me saying: hey don't complain. Think what would happen in such a situation in
North Korea.

[sobieski010]

Just read the entire Polish cabinet will go to a special mass to make the
heatwave stop.
Do I need to say more? I wonder if there is any other government in Europe who
thinks something like this helps.
Akin to Indian raindances if you ask me, and as effective

Poland vs Israel

[ianek70]

Lots of info there
It's an interesting comparison, and I understand your point but there's one
fundamental difference between Israel and Poland, or almost anywhere else.
The word "Jews" can refer to the nationality/ethnic group, to the religion, or
to both. This is not the case with "Poles" or "Catholics". There are atheist
Jews, but no atheist Catholics, there are non-Catholic Poles, non-Polish
Catholics, but no non-Jewish Jews.
The Star of David may be everywhere in Israel, but as a national symbol or a
religious one? I assume it could be either or both, depending who's looking at
it and where. There's no crucifix on the Polish flag. Not yet, anyway.
Israel was founded as a Jewish state, but in the ethnic or religious sense? I
doubt if even Jews would agree on an answer to that, since the history of the
Jews in Poland, for example, was similar to the history of any other human
society anywhere, i.e. lots of intelligent debate between the religious and the
secular, lots of pointless sectarian squabbling among the religious.

And how sincere/literal/religious is the shop clerks' "Shabbat shalom"? It
might just be a set phrase.
Non-Christians say "bless you" if someone sneezes, Poles get confused when an
English-speaker says "How you doing?" and doesn't expect an answer.

[ejmarkow]

ianek wrote:
> The Star of David may be everywhere in Israel, but as a national symbol or a
> religious one? I assume it could be either or both, depending who's looking
> at it and where.

According to the website (Judaism 101) www.jewfaq.org/signs.htm , "In
the 17th century, it became a popular practice to put Magen Davids (Star of
David) on the outside of synagogues, to identify them as Jewish houses of
worship in much the same way that a cross identified a Christian house of
worship".

This being said, the Magen David has strong religious significance if they were
being placed on the exterior of religious buildings such as synagogues.

My previous posting also mentioned that in Israel, "Mezzuzahs (traditional
prayer holders on doorposts) are everywhere, too: at the car rental place, on
every door at IBM (in standard big blue and white), in our rented house, and of
course at the kindergarten." The Mezzuzahs are also an important Jewish
religious symbol and are as common (if not more) than the Magen David. They are
mounted on every home, business, you name it.

Judaism 101 says about the Mezzuzah, "it is a constant reminder of G-d's
presence and G-d's mitzvot. The mitzvah to place mezuzot on the doorposts of
our houses is derived from Deut. 6:4-9, a passage commonly known as the Shema
(Hear, from the first word of the passage). In that passage, G-d commands us to
keep His words constantly in our minds and in our hearts, by (among other
things) writing them on the doorposts of our house. The words of the Shema are
written on a tiny scroll of parchment, along with the words of a companion
passage, Deut. 11:13-21. On the back of the scroll, a name of G-d is written.
The scroll is then rolled up placed in the case, so that the first letter of
the Name (the letter Shin) is visible (or, more commonly, the letter Shin is
written on the outside of the case)."

Again, the Mezzuzah has utmost religious meaning. I can't stress any more on
how common both Poland and Israel are in the religious symbol aspect. Both
countries place their symbols in both public and private buildings, etc.,
everywhere you look. The fact that both peoples have lived together for many
centuries could have been an influential factor in their habits perhaps?

Cheers.

[bluteau]

>many are expats that came here to Poland for an attractive
>international job offer and relocated. An executive position, acceptable
>salary, or valuable international experience in their eyes will always take
>precedent over the culture and majority religion of the country they chose to
>live in.

I don't know about you, but I haven't met too many foreigners, especially native
speakers of English, who came or have come to Poland for attractive, executive
job opportunities. The reality may be slightly different in W-wa, but the many
foreigners I've run into around the country chose Poland because of love (or
"love"), because they heard it was easy to teach languages here without
qualifications or because they had nothing to lose in coming here (nothing to
gain either, really). It's also rare that I run into expats who have nice things
to say about Poland. They usually just bitch and moan about everything, but
still often choose not to leave. That's a darn shame.

The Handsome Face of Healthy Anti-Clericalism

[ianek70]

Personally I'm no more anti-Catholic than I am anti-any other religion.
I don't think I actually criticised Catholicism in that last post, although I
admit I have written about it unflatteringly in the past. This is because I
live in Poland and Catholics have more chance to annoy me than Protestants, and
even then it's more the conformist pseudo-Catholics and the Church's arrogance
that annoy me rather than the actual average Catholic.
I don't write about Islam because I have no contact with it, and anyway there
are enough obsessive anti-islamists and conspiracy theorists to keep us
informed. I don't criticise Judaism because I know very little about it, except
that it involves candles and funky headwear.

People can worship whoever or whatever they want, but that's their own personal
business and there should be no place in schools for brainwashing.
All religious organisations should be treated equally, none should have a
monopoly on lying to small kids, none should have their symbols on the wall of
a parliament which claims to represent everyone.

We had occasional protestant religious ceremonies in my officially "non-
denominational" school in Scotland. This was mildly irritating, and also
pointless since there is no lack of churches for folk who want to sing about
Jesus rather than pick their noses for an hour.
Sending priests, rabbis, vicars or mullahs into nurseries once a year to talk
about their job is one thing (like when a cop or a miner comes in and the kids
all make cardboard hats), but letting them brainwash little children is just
evil.

This is NOT anti-Catholic, it's not even anti-religious, so there's no reason
why you should be offended.

Oi! Censor! This one's about religion!

[ianek70]

I think Jewish dietary restrictions are weird.

Oi! So's this one!

[ianek70]

I think the non-hierarchical nature of Islam is cool.

And one more.

[ianek70]

The Protestant Work Ethic can cause high blood pressure and various stress-
related problems.

Right. Now we wait to see which of these posts disappears.

Idea

[ejmarkow]

You know, such quality discussion is certainly lacking in the mainstream press
(on the religious / ethnic issue) and I'm glad these views are able to be
expressed freely on this forum. For now and the time being, they haven't
been 'censored'...yet. I think it's a great idea that we in this forum organize
a live symposium and debate on such issues, at my place, in the large hall
located in my converted barn-to-entertainment center, including food, drinks,
and entertainment. It would be an opportunity to know each other on a more
personal level, and to have fun as well. A mixer if you will. I recently had 6
tourists from Brazil stay here for several days, and now the rooms are
available for the time being. Regardless of the tone my recent postings, I do
welcome everyone here. It won't be limited to only FLIP participants. Radicals
from GW, Warsaw Voice, Nie, Radio Polonia, NY Times, and certain liberal Polish
blogs (you know who you are) are invited as well. And don't worry and never
fear, my scythe will be locked up and never near. What do you think?

Cheers!

[ejmarkow]

Very enthusiastic crowd here on the forum indeed. Here we've had several nice
opportunities to break the ice live and via chat, with no expressed interest.
Ok, so you don't wish to gather in person. What is your suggestion, if any?

[ja_karola]

ejmarkow napisał:

> Very enthusiastic crowd here on the forum indeed. Here we've had several nice
> opportunities to break the ice live and via chat, with no expressed interest.
> Ok, so you don't wish to gather in person. What is your suggestion, if any?

Count me in Eugene, but hold on until I at least cross the Atlantic! How far is
Siemiechow from Gdynia and where is the closest airport?

I'll be visiting Poland more often now that I'll be closer. I'm officially
moving on August 10th. Denmark here I come!

I shall of course purchase a new hat for this visit. Melon peel just won't do,
not even in a barn!

So put me down on your list as number 1. So who's next?

[ejmarkow]

ja_karola wrote:

> How far is Siemiechow from Gdynia and where is the closest airport?

I'm impressed and glad of your enthusiasm to come down to south-eastern Poland
and meet. Thanks. I hope you realize, that Gdynia is on the opposite end of the
country, and it would be quite an undertaking to make the trip. I don't think
you would regret it though. If there are others on this forum from other major
cities such as Warsaw or Poznan that would like to come as well, it might be a
nice idea for you to meet up with them and then perhaps travel down here
together in an automobile if possible. According to mapa.szukacz.pl/,
Gdynia is approximately 550 km north and slightly west of my village. The
nearest airport to me is in Krakow, Balice, only 80 km north-west of me. If
that is too far, I could suggest hold a get together in one of the central
cities, and I would come. Warsaw would be ideal for me becaue my cousins have a
new apartment in Mokotow, a place for me to stay. Anyway, the countryside is
still a great place to be if you prefer a piece of mind.

[ja_karola]

Yes, your place is rather far, but I could always combine this trip with a visit
to Krakow where my friends have been inviting me for some time now. It’s a
great idea Eugene, but perhaps the distance is precisely why not too many are
showing interest. I wouldn’t count on any other Flippers to organize a car
pool; besides, I have 8 years worth of driving an automatic gear so switching to
a standard could cause a few to experience motion sickness.

The fact that this get-together would consist of only two people, you and me, is
a bit of a downer; no offence, of course, but this was meant as a FliP reunion
after all.

Meeting half way in Warsaw is a much better idea and you may count me in, but
something tells me Eugene that there aren’t going to be too many takers either!
Perhaps in the fall you’ll get a better response.

Too bad your get-together did not work out. I’d come even if only Ianek70 and
Marimax had responded. I’d give a lot to just fill a drink, sit back, relax and
watch them go at it! Pure entertainment!

Cheers and thanks for your initiative!

K.

The RC Church in PL

[ja_karola]

When discussing the RC Church in Poland you should consider that it has always
been a central political force during Poland’s tumultuous history whether you
like it or not. Both faith and Church are linked with the national identity
which was threatened for centuries. During the communist era the Church was the
one and only opposing force that contributed to the end of communism not only in
Poland but across all of Eastern Europe. It was the only defender of the Polish
identity and freedom and it was perceived as the anti-state. Cardinal Wyszynski
and Pope Karol Wojtyla were the greatest figures in the abolishment of
communism. The Vatican alone contributed over 100 mln US dollars to the
Solidarity movement (because of JPII’s personal attachment to this country for
which he almost paid with his life).

Maybe this explains why this religion is still so important in Poland given that
Poles never went through the secularization of the society as most democratic
and liberal Western societies did. Poles did not have such a luxury. And don’t
forget that you would not have the opportunity to come to work and live in this
country prior to 1989! Not to mention the delight of freely discussing and
arguing on forums such as FLiP. So don’t let monuments of JPII bother you Ianek.
He’s one of the few people who really deserve them for what he did for his
homeland!

[ianek70]

ja_karola napisała:

> The Vatican alone contributed over 100 mln US dollars to the
> Solidarity movement (because of JPII’s personal attachment to this countr
> y for
> which he almost paid with his life).

Giving a small amount of its riches to ordinary people was a nice symbolic
gesture by the Vatican, even if it was completely politically motivated.
The Solidarity leaders themselves spent the early 1980's travelling round
Western Europe claiming that they had no political ambitions and no direct
connection to the Catholic church (they admitted the views of the Church were
important to the movement because a large majority of Solidarity members were
Catholics - this seems fair and reasonable to me).
They met with lots of Trade Union leaders and told them they didn't want money -
they had cash from various sources, and Poles had large amounts of dollars and
DMs hidden under their beds, but this money was useless since in a totalitarian
commie state there was no way they could spend it on photocopiers, ink, paper,
cassette recorders or any other way of spreading information, which was their
main aim.
So western Trade Unions gave them large amounts of new or used photocopiers,
printing equipment, paper, cassette recorders, provided them with training,
advice and know-how.
This, of course, is never mentioned by the Polish media, although they do
remember kind (but disgustingly hypocritical and worthless) words by union-
haters like Thatcher.

> Maybe this explains why this religion is still so important in Poland given
tha
> t
> Poles never went through the secularization of the society as most democratic
> and liberal Western societies did. Poles did not have such a luxury.

Secularisation is hardly a luxury.
Communists forced it on the poor Czechs (who are now much happier than Poles),
in Scotland progress is being made, although the school system is still
segregated into two main religions which most folk don't practise any more.
While this state of affairs exists, how can other religious minorities
logically be denied the right to their own schools? For the sake of political
correctness I won't name the institution mostly responsible for this division
(because I would be accused of being anti-Catholic) but what could heal this
pointless artificial divide apart from all-inclusive secular schooling?

[bluteau]

But you're still missing the point - most people in Poland do not want totally
securalised schools or a totally securalised society. True, there are more and
more people less and less interested in the Church and "their own" religion, but
that number is not yet the majority.
When given the choice about whether to sign their kid up for religion classes in
nursery school, 22 out of 25 parents will sign them up. Now, whether they're
doing that out of sincerity, tradition, habit or hypocrisy is their business.
Having a cross hanging over the door of the classroom or not will have little
influence over their choice.
Taking religion out of schools completely is not a bad idea. I support it. Let
the churches go back to organising Sunday school. However, that's an option for
a society that wants those kind of measures taken. For now, people have a choice
and no one is forced to be a member, active of otherwise, of any religious
organisation in this country. Treat the crosses like horse shoes and enjoy the
few extra Catholic holidays that come your way.

[ja_karola]

ianek70 napisał:

> Giving a small amount of its riches to ordinary people was a nice symbolic
> gesture by the Vatican, even if it was completely politically motivated.

And Halleluiah! The Vatican City is after all the capital of a sovereign state
and as such they must have an agenda. Why else would Ronald Reagan write to
JPII that he was inspired by his leadership? Ronnie himself admitted that the
pope was a messenger between the Solidarity movement and Washington. As a
result of their close collaboration, Reagan signed a secret order (May 1982)
that authorized an array of economic, diplomatic and covert measures that
toppled the Communist state and I don’t think you’ll find even one Pole who’ll
say that that wasn’t exactly what they were praying for (unless they were pinkos
of course). Nobody pretends that the Vatican’s actions were not politically
driven, but are you at all surprised and most importantly, ungrateful?

> The Solidarity leaders themselves spent the early 1980's travelling round
> Western Europe claiming that they had no political ambitions and no direct
> connection to the Catholic church

Remember August 1980? Well I don’t since I was 2; but I saw footage of the
famous signing of the agreement between Solidarity and the Communist State. Did
you not notice Walesa’s humungous pen with JPII’s image and the rosary hanging
around his neck not to mention Virgin Mary’s button on his lapel, which became a
permanent feature even during his years in office? He travelled to Italy,
Japan, Sweden, France and Switzerland with this apparel so it’s kind of hard to
say that he was denying any ties to the Catholic Church. Solidarity was
fighting for the rights of every section of the society including the Church’s
right to continue religious broadcasting. Up to then the Catholic Church had
been the only outlet for opposition to the communist state. Nowhere in the
world have trade unions been able to resist armed state power. I really could
not have cared less what were the motives behind this success. The results are
what counts.

> So western Trade Unions gave them large amounts of new or used photocopiers,
> printing equipment, paper, cassette recorders, provided them with training,
> advice and know-how. This, of course, is never mentioned by the Polish media,
> although they do remember kind (but disgustingly hypocritical and worthless)
> words by union-haters like Thatcher.

I wasn’t aware that the Western trade unions were complaining about the lack of
recognition. I was under the impression of the opposite actually. All
throughout the 25th anniversary celebrations of Solidarity TV Polonia was
broadcasting one documentary after another and foreign help was presented as
absolutely invaluable in the fight against communism. I don’t think any
Solidarity activists would ever undermine their help.

> While this state of affairs exists, how can other religious minorities
> logically be denied the right to their own schools?

I won’t pretend to know the current situation in Poland and whether minority
religions are being denied the right to own their own schools. I do know
however that in Quebec and in Ontario, Christian private schools are partly
funded by the government, as opposed to other minorities such as Jewish and
Muslim that are 100% private therefore very expensive. Their only revenues come
from tuition fees.

The International Religious Freedom Report for 2005 states no objections to the
status of religious freedom in Poland.
(www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51573.htm )
Historically, the majority dictates the rules. It is obviously important to
accept and embrace minorities (vs. just tolerating them), but in your case, it
seems like you have trouble accepting the majority.

Don’t get me wrong, I (at least think I) understand what you’re saying. You’re
sick of seeing people being religious; you suspect them of being hypocritical by
even stepping inside a church and you’re sick of seeing the Church attaining
more power in the country! I can totally understand how that can be
aggravating. But as long as they do you no harm, why bother increasing blood
pressure? Don’t sign your daughter up for religion classes if you don’t want
to. Nobody’s going to ostracize you or her for not going to church. My
great-grandfather (long before the war) was an atheist and in his will gave his
body for medical studies, and no one ostracized him then so I don’t think you’d
meet with such a reaction nowadays.

I think Bluteau sums it up very well. Just live and let live because you’re not
going to change anything by venting on this Forum.

Schools in Poland

[ejmarkow]

Ianek70,

Public schools in Poland teach Roman Catholic religion and have crucifixes
hanging in the classrooms for a very good reason: the majority of residents in
Poland are Roman Catholic (over 95%), unique in all of Europe. The majority
clearly dictates. There isn't a reason to segregate religion from public
schools and create separate 'Catholic' schools (as in the USA) in Poland since
non-Catholics make up a very small percentage of students attending schools.
However, for larger cities such as Warsaw, Krakow, Katowice, where many non-
practicing Catholics reside, there are excellent options for families who wish
for their children to learn in a more 'secular' environment, or even in a
school of their religion/national identity. In major cities in Poland, Warsaw
for example, if you prefer your child to study in a non-public school, then you
can choose from a myriad of options. Just take a look at the list below.

-American School of Warsaw
-Meridian International School
-The British School
-Willy Brandt Deutsche Schule
-The Lauder Jewish Kindergarten
-The Lauder-Morasha Primary School
-Japanese School at the Japanese Embassy in Warsaw
-Lycee Francais de Varsovie
-Canadian Primary School of Warsaw
-St Paul's The British International school of Warsaw (Piaseczno)
-International American School of Warsaw
-International European School - Warsaw
-European Bilingual Preschool
-International Preschool
-"W stumilowym lesie" day care centre
-World Hill Academy - Szkoła Anglo-Amerykańska
-American English School S.A.
-Ecole Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

This is a clear sign that Poland does indeed cater to the needs for a more
secular or tailored education, even though most of the schools listed above (I
assume) are privately owned and funded. Someday, if Poland's demographics
(religion and ethnic makeup) should change more dramatically, then the
segregation of religion from the public school system may eventually be
realized, and a separate Catholic school system will be required in this case.
For now, the need isn't justified.

PiS is leading now

[marimax]

According to the latest poll PiS would get the most votes now if an election
would be held now.
VERY GOOD it seems most people in Poland don't like the politicaly correct
pinkos

[ianek70]

ejmarkow napisał:

> Public schools in Poland teach Roman Catholic religion and have crucifixes
> hanging in the classrooms for a very good reason: the majority of residents
in
> Poland are Roman Catholic (over 95%), unique in all of Europe. The majority
> clearly dictates.

So we have mob rule.
Over 90% of the population in all countries is right-handed. They are born
right-handed and die right-handed. There is no division between those who are
devout, practising right-handers and those who are only considered right-handed
because their parents decided that, well, since the neighbours are right-
handed...
They used to try to "cure" left-handedness. As late as the early 70s, some
Scottish schools still forced these deviant non-conformist heretics to write
with their right hands. I'm not a neurologist, so I don't know exactly why this
caused various nervous problems (stammering in particular), but it did.
Forcing behaviour on people is stupid and harmful, telling them they should
believe in things simply because other people do is an insult both to non-
believers and believers.

Schools should teach earthly things like maths and reading. Knowledge and facts.
Since the Church demands that believers attend mass regularly, they wouldn't be
missing anything by not having religion in schools.
And if it's OK for the mob to have its symbols on school walls, then why not
have crucifixes on buses? Madonnas on banknotes? Why pick and choose which
areas of folk's personal life are invaded?