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"Rogue state"! Isn't it something like...

29.05.04, 05:09
...Israel? Fits every description, no? Even bt American standards...

Briton says he was held in Israeli dungeon

Conal Urquhart in Tel Aviv and Duncan Campbell
Friday May 28, 2004
The Guardian

A British journalist released from Israeli custody yesterday said that he had
been held in a dungeon with excrement on the walls following his arrest on
suspicion of espionage.
Peter Hounam was detained on Wednesday by the Israeli security agency on
suspicion that he had obtained classified information from Mordechai Vanunu,
the Israeli technician who was jailed after revealing Israel's nuclear
capabilities to the world.

The journalist was released on condition that he leave Israel within 24
hours, and will not be allowed to return .

Speaking outside the Jerusalem jail where he had been held, Hounam said
Israel should be ashamed of itself for arresting him. He complained of being
kept overnight in solitary confinement in a "dungeon with excrement on the
walls" and limited to two hours' sleep.

Hounam, 60, said he was questioned for more than four hours by Israeli
security. "They accused me of spying on nuclear secrets and aggravated
espionage. It is laughable," he said.

Senior sources at the security agency Shin Bet said that Hounam had organised
a covert operation to interview Mr Vanunu in breach of his release
regulations.

After 18 years in prison, Mr Vanunu was released last month, but was
forbidden from speaking about his work at Israel's nuclear reactor and from
contact with foreigners.

Hounam was the Sunday Times journalist who interviewed Vanunu in 1986 and
then published his revelations of Israel's nuclear programme.

According to Shin Bet, Hounam paid an Israeli woman, Yael Lotan, £1,000 to
interview Mr Vanunu on his behalf. Hounam, with the help of BBC employees,
edited and duplicated the tapes.

Shin Bet said they had retrieved five copies of the interview but were not
sure if other copies had been smuggled out of the country or distributed via
the internet.

Shin Bet's source said that the interview focused on Mr Vanunu's history,
from his childhood to his work at Israel's nuclear facility in the Negev
desert.

The tapes were still to be analysed to see if Mr Vanunu revealed any secrets
or broke Israeli law, the source said. Mr Vanunu could be made to return to
prison if he is deemed to have broken any of the conditions for his release.

Hounam denied that Mr Vanunu had passed on any secrets. "All the information
that Mordechai Vanunu knew about in 1986 was published at the time," Hounam
said. "He has no more secrets, and it's time the authorities here realised
that."

He added: "The key fight is the fight to get Mordechai Vanunu the right to
leave this country, start a new life in America, if that's where he wants to
go, and stop these ridiculous restrictions."

Seeking to track to down all copies of the interview, Shin Bet also detained
Chris Mitchell, a BBC journalist, as he tried to leave Israel with tapes of
the interview.

Hiyari Sadi, a British free lance journalist, "consented" to give Shin Bet
his copies of the interview, the security sources said.
Hounam was arrested in Tel Aviv on Wednesday as he was on his way to meet a
peace activist. He has been in Israel since Mr Vanunu's release, working with
a television crew making a film for the BBC about the case.

Mr Vanunu is barred from leaving Israel for at least a year and is staying in
St George's Anglican cathedral in Jerusalem. He has received death threats
and is anxious to settle in the US with his adoptive parents.

Yesterday Hounam's wife, Hilarie, said from the couple's home in Aberfeldy,
Perthshire, that he was "overjoyed" to be released. She said she believed the
arrest sprang from the Israeli authorities' continuing campaign against Mr
Vanunu. "They know he has no more secrets," she said. "It's vengeance, isn't
it?"

Hounam angered the Israeli authorities by publishing the identity of the
Mossad agent who lured Mr Vanunu to Italy where he was kidnapped, drugged,
bound and shipped back to Israel. In his book, The Woman from Mossad, Hounam
identified the woman as Cheryl Bentov and tracked her down to Florida.

Donatella Rovera, an Amnesty International researcher, witnessed Mr Hounam's
arrest in the garden of the Jerusalem Hotel.

"Peter Hounam was brought into the garden by five plain-clothes members of
the security forces or police," she said. "He broke away from them and ran
over to my table. He looked very concerned and just had the time to tell
me: 'I am being arrested, please tell the Sunday Times, please let people
know'."

The Foreign Press Association, which represents international news
organisations in Israel, welcomed Hounam's release but said the arrest of
journalists was "a most dangerous threat to any democracy".

Hounam's lawyer, Avigdor Feldman, called the detention a farce, and said he
had not violated any of the restrictions on Mr Vanunu. "He was arrested as
part of the security establishment's never-ending obsession with Vanunu," he
said."




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    • erwas Re: "Rogue state"! Isn't it something like... 29.05.04, 05:57
      geez, Mr.Czikenszortz. what are you? some kind of fanatic?
      excrement on the walls! well, how do YOU like dungeons to look?
      and what's more, aand I know that you've been warned about this before: you
      must NOT paste things anymore. and from the Guardian too...

      > the arrest of journalists was "a most dangerous threat to any democracy".
      that, of course was said by the Foreign Press Association.
      I can think of more dangerous threats. like stealing elections, for example.
      anyway, forget Israel; worry about France. are you aware that to buy 300
      different kinds of cheese you have to go to 300 different shops?
      • chickenshorts Re: "Rogue state"! Isn't it something like... 29.05.04, 06:06
        erwas napisał:

        > geez, Mr.Czikenszortz. what are you? some kind of fanatic?
        > excrement on the walls! well, how do YOU like dungeons to look?
        > and what's more, aand I know that you've been warned about this before: you
        > must NOT paste things anymore. and from the Guardian too...

        Says who?


        > anyway, forget Israel; worry about France. are you aware that to buy 300
        > different kinds of cheese you have to go to 300 different shops?

        You are as misinformed as the rest of your fellow Ahhmerrikans...

        ere, read this (from the G.)

        If spies wanted a trophy to show what happens when their craft is perfectly
        executed, it would be a story written by Judith Miller on the front page of the
        New York Times on a Sunday morning in September 2002. She wrote that an
        intercepted shipment of aluminum tubes, to be used for centrifuges, was
        evidence that Saddam was building a uranium gas separator to develop nuclear
        material.

        The story had an enormous impact, one amplified when national security adviser
        Condoleezza Rice, secretary of state Colin Powell and vice-president Dick
        Cheney all did appearances on the Sunday-morning talk shows, citing the first-
        rate journalism of the liberal NYT. No single story did more to advance the
        neoconservative cause."

        www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1227399,00.html


        • erwas Re: "Rogue state"! Isn't it something like... 29.05.04, 18:32
          consider this to be a fine instance of the foolishness of making
          generalizations. the information about the misinformation by Judith Miller has
          been making news for well over a year. that you have suddenly (and so late)
          caught on to the story is because like ALL other Anglo-Polack-Frogs you are
          under-mispostinformed. but thanks for the hot-breaking-link anyway.

          + your assumption that I am American is based on conjecture. I have never
          claimed to be an American, I would never want to be one (nor do I seek to be
          English, Polish, Israeli, Kurdish or any other such nonsense).
          I think its a little sad, that you are making such a case for a world-view
          based on the "them and us" philosophy. there are elements gathered in the US
          which are threatening, to say the least. to overcome this evil, you will need
          to gather more recources than are at hand in Cheesy Old Wimpland; you will need
          an awakening of Americans out of this nightmare that they have slipped in to.
          many people in the US are facing moral-ethical issues, inner battles, and
          confrontations with the gathering forces of various neovangels etc. which will
          be decisive in whether or not the tide is turned.
          • erwas rage 29.05.04, 22:00
            must have woken up in in a very bitter mood this morning.
            sorry about the nasty tone of my last post.
    • Gość: wacko jacko Re: "Rogue state"! Isn't it something like... IP: *.nyc.rr.com 29.05.04, 21:56
      Isn't it amazing Israel maintains democracy despite all those terrorist attacks?
      They don't even declare a state of emergency or a marshal law.
      Say what yoy want but I rather live in the system like in Israel than the one in
      place in Egypt. Don't you?

      PS. Dear erwas you must understand that in chickenshort's imagination all who
      reside in USA are in fact misinformed Ahmericans. Why are they misinformed?
      They don't read The Guardian.
      • erwas Re: "Rogue state"! Isn't it something like... 29.05.04, 22:13
        the Republic of South Africa was also a democracy...for a minority of the
        population. you might enjoy living in a "system" like in Israel, if you were
        Jewish.
        you would be amazed how many Americans do read The Guardian.
        large numbers of Americans listen to National Public Radio (NPR) and watch PBS,
        which broadcasts BBC News. during the Iraq war many Americans switched to
        watching the BBC altogether seeing how it gave a somewhat less (self) censored
        view of events.
        • chickenshorts Re: "Rogue state"! Isn't it something like... 29.05.04, 23:08
          erwas napisał:

          > must have woken up in in a very bitter mood this morning.
          > sorry about the nasty tone of my last post.

          Yeah, dreams are what we wake up from... Raymond Carver said.
          Don't you worry about nonsense like manners or tone...


          Gość portalu: wacko jacko napisał(a):

          > Isn't it amazing Israel maintains democracy despite all those terrorist
          attacks
          > ?
          > They don't even declare a state of emergency or a marshal law.
          > Say what yoy want but I rather live in the system like in Israel than the one
          i
          > n
          > place in Egypt. Don't you?
          >
          > PS. Dear erwas you must understand that in chickenshort's imagination all who
          > reside in USA are in fact misinformed Ahmericans. Why are they misinformed?
          > They don't read The Guardian.

          Spot on, wacko!
          Informed though you claim to be, you still prefer to read and cite rubbish
          and kowtow to Rumsfeld line like you did when trying to rename obvious torture
          as... what was it?

          erwas napisał:

          > the Republic of South Africa was also a democracy...for a minority of the
          > population. you might enjoy living in a "system" like in Israel, if you were
          > Jewish.
          > you would be amazed how many Americans do read The Guardian.
          > large numbers of Americans listen to National Public Radio (NPR) and watch
          PBS,
          >
          > which broadcasts BBC News. during the Iraq war many Americans switched to
          > watching the BBC altogether seeing how it gave a somewhat less (self)
          censored
          > view of events.

          An American lady living now in Paris told me once that after the Enron scandal
          (she personally was affected) she felt less rage about the perpetrators of 9/11
          horror than Ken Lay & co scheme...
          Many Americans readily admit that the mainstream news in American media
          are 'narrow and shallow', a bit like Izwiestia and Nowostii way back in good
          old days of soviet empire...
          • Gość: wacko jacko bullshit or hogwash or balderdash IP: *.nyc.rr.com 30.05.04, 04:28
            Don't you tell me about the truth telling BBC. Have you forgotten?
            Every outlet presents the news with a little twist. Most of them to the left, a
            few to the right. I watch PBS and I value Lehrer News Hour. I even like Charlie
            Rose. But boy, oh boy when I see this motherfucking prick Bill Moyers I puke.
            The National Public Radio is completely unbearable.

            PS. I do not read The Guardian now and anytime soon.
            Personally I admire Don Rumsfeld, Condi Rice, Colin Powell and to rub you wrong
            way, G.W. Bush. I do value politicians with the spine and the pair balls (Rice
            excluded).
            • erwas just bullshit 30.05.04, 05:31
              come now, you Nazi types always whine, whine, and whine about the left bias of
              the media. of course it is a matter of your relative position, but it has been
              pretty much accepted that the right has been scoring some successes in putting
              its message accross, to put it mildly. most Americans still do belive that Iraq
              possessed WMDs and was linked to 9/11. none of your above mentioned admired
              ones ever says so directly any more, how can they, but the media on the whole
              supports their implied message. the media in America's recent allies is not so
              burdened with self-censorship and carries less disinformation.

              as for NPR, true, they do have a few left-leaning contributors, but even there,
              in one of those supposed last bastions of the left the situation is not quite
              what you suggest. the media watch group FAIR puts out the following figures for
              1993 (when Clinton was still President and both houses were controlled by the
              Democrats): in "partisan sources
              • Gość: wacko jacko Me nazi? IP: *.nyc.rr.com 30.05.04, 08:10
                If I am a nazi then you must be a communist!!!!!!
                What's FAIR? Unbiased? Give me a break. It's a left wing outlet and you know it.
                If fair is unbiast then MoveOn.org is nonpartisan and Limbaugh is mainstream.
                Thank you very, very much.

                PS. You should read more carefully. the FAIR figures for 1993 (when Clinton was
                still a president? He just started.) are 57:42 not 61:38.
                So 57% of guest were republicans an this is a proof of lack of bias.
                How about having a republican guest answer the "when did you stop beating your
                wife, Mister Republican?" How unbias.
                Just apply the same formula to Fox News and be surprised that majority of the
                guests are in fact democrats. Does it mean that Fox has a left slant? Hello!

                Why don't you acquaint yourself with "Bias" by Bernard Goldberg.
                www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060520841/qid=1085897067/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-8361193-2038366?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
                Why are leftists so intolerant of opposing points of view? Why do they resort to
                namecalling when they lose the argument? Because they don't think logically.
                They feel the other people's pain.
                • erwas Re: Me nazi? 01.06.04, 05:37
                  > If I am a nazi then you must be a communist!!!!!!

                  I guess

                  > PS. You should read more carefully. the FAIR figures for 1993 (when Clinton
                  > was still a president? He just started.) are 57:42 not 61:38.

                  it really does not matter what the political leanings of FAIR are. their survey
                  is legitimate and generally accepted. you might argue that the question they
                  asked and way they formed it showed bias, that often matters; in this case it
                  is nit-picking.
                  and I don't know where you are getting your figures from. I dragged that line
                  in from their report. Here is a dragged in item from the Toronto Star
                  commenting on more recent figures: "(...) FAIR's (Fairness & Accuracy in
                  Reporting) latest survey shows that 64 per cent of NPR's sources are "elite" —
                  conservative and Republican spokespersons of the administration and
                  corporations (...)"
                  anyway, even if the figures were reversed, it hardly makes the NPR a leftie
                  pulpit.
                  • Gość: wacko jacko Re: Me nazi? IP: *.nyc.rr.com 01.06.04, 22:32
                    Latest poll from Pew reaserch Center
                    sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2004/06/01/asparks.DTL
                    people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=829
                    A you for real? NPR has no left leaning? Then 77 WABC Talk Radio is a moderate
                    outfit. Give me a break, please.
                    I wasn't born yesterday.
    • Gość: :># Re: "Rogue state"! Isn't it something like... IP: *.proxy.aol.com 31.05.04, 21:11
      Chickenshit.
      • Gość: veneer Re: "Rogue state"! Isn't it something like... IP: *.olsztyn.mm.pl 12.07.04, 18:46
        The case for sunctions against Israel!

        www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1259087,00.html
        • Gość: wacko jacko dream on............ IP: *.nyc.rr.com 13.07.04, 19:52
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