Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

Jezu, ten facet w ogole nie umie mowic po polsku!

[jacek230]

"Powinna być komisja, bo to jedyna szansa na jej wyjaśnienia."
Wyjasnienia tej komisji? I gdzie powinna byc komisja?
Chyba: "Powinna być POWOLANA komisja, bo to jedyna szansa na jej
wyjaśnienia." - Czyje wyjasnienia????
Pan Jaroslaw nie mowi, tylko belkocze. :)

to nie jest facet, a tym bardziej pan

[qawsedrftg]

To po prostu kierownik.

Gry i zabawy Jarosława K.

[czyzyk331]

Wielki Brat K. posiada wyjątkową elastyczność taktyczną, ale w
sprawach, które bezpośrednio go nie dotyczą. Przypomina to sytuację
faceta, który ma kapitalne poczucie humoru, dopóki nie żartuje się z
niego. W PiS jest takich polityków wyjątkowo dużo, sztywnych,
zatwardziałych, bez dystansu do siebie. Uprzedzano go, że nieustanne
podstępy, roszady, prowokacje działają do czasu, aż w którymś
momencie narażają na izolację albo konsolidują przeciwników. W grach
krótkoterminowych, dopóki miał władzę, był mistrzem absolutnym.
Teraz widać absolutny brak pomysłu ws. afery hazardowej. Kolejna
komisja śledcza może być gwoździem do jego polityczej władzy.

[jesss11]

O nie nie... to nie kierownik. To "Pan Prezes". Cokolwiek to nie znaczy ;-). Jak
dla mnie "Pan Pre-Dres" - taka antyczna odmiana dresa - co to jeszcze nie łykał
sterydów masowo ale już mozg mu wyżarło.

[caius1]

jacek230 napisał:

> "Powinna być komisja, bo to jedyna szansa na jej wyjaśnienia."
> Wyjasnienia tej komisji? I gdzie powinna byc komisja?
> Chyba: "Powinna być POWOLANA komisja, bo to jedyna szansa na jej
> wyjaśnienia." - Czyje wyjasnienia????
> Pan Jaroslaw nie mowi, tylko belkocze. :)

A kiedy on miał się nauczyć mówić po polsku? Przecież do wyższych celów jest
stworzony.

NiePiS

Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

[funia81]

"Mamy od czynienia z kryzysem i z domniemaniami dotyczącymi Donalda Tuska"

Na szczescie sa to tylko kacze domniemania. Nikt nie traktuje ich powaznie.

[czyzyk331]

Warto pamiętać jak rządziła ekipa Kaczyńskich!!!
„Prokuratura w Łodzi zdobyła dowody obciążające Ziobrę? Podczas jego
konfrontacji z Kaczmarkiem obaj pozostali przy swoich wersjach
narady u Jarosława Kaczyńskiego. Przedstawili dwa sprzeczne opisy
tego wydarzenia. Ziobro twierdził, że Kaczmarek milczał. Kaczmarek
zaś mówił, że przestrzegał.
Zbigniewa Ziobrę pogrążyła kolejna konfrontacja. Prokuratura
zderzyła Kaczmarka z Jarosławem Kaczyńskim. Ich spotkanie z
prokuratorem trwało jakieś 1,5 godziny. Krótką relację zamieściła
m.in. „Gazeta Wyborcza”, to co ważne opisując jednym zdaniem:
Najbardziej sensacyjne jest jednak to, że prezes PiS nie wykluczył,
że szczegóły śledztwa mógł omawiać Ziobro. B. minister
sprawiedliwości natomiast zeznawał, iż nie interesował się sprawą
Blidy i nie referował jej podczas narady u premiera.
Ta konfrontacja była szczególnie istotna również z innego powodu.
Premier Kaczyński potwierdził wersję Kaczmarka, który konsekwentnie
obstawał przy tym, że głośno oponował przeciwko wysyłaniu ABW po
Barbarę Blidę, a dowody jej rzekomej działalności przestępczej uznał
za mocno wątpliwe. Jarosław Kaczyński przyznał, że Kaczmarek
zabierał głos podczas narady. Kaczyński dodał także, że w podobnych
sprawach zawsze prosił Kaczmarka o opinię, ceniąc jego zdanie jako
doświadczonego prokuratora.
Już w połowie kwietnia 2008 r. prokurator zdobył wiedzę o tym, kto
złożył fałszywe zeznania. Poszlaki te wskazują, że to Ziobro mijał
się z prawdą, a przy tym wprowadził w błąd premiera Kaczyńskiego co
do rzekomych dowodów winy Blidy.”> Dlaczego nic z tym nie zrobiono?
Jak zwykle prokuratura lęka się groźnego Ziobry i Wielkiego Brata K.
www.nie.com.pl/art21315.htm

Kolejny skok Kaczyńskiego do URMU-u

[czyzyk331]

Wielu w dziejach polityków jawnie zmierzało do dyktatury objawiając
przy tym egocentryzm, mroczne obsesje i mistyfikując zło, z którego
wywodzą fanatyczne poczucie misji. Żaden jednak nie podawał tak
mizernych jak Wielki Brat K.powodów do domagania się wszystkich
dźwigni rządzenia. Kandydaci na dyktatorów powoływali się – bywało –
na Boga, Allacha, potrzebę przeprowadzenia rewolucji światowej lub
jej zapobiegnięcia, na to, że chcą stworzyć imperium, zapewnić
narodowi przestrzeń życiową, rozprzestrzenić wyższą cywilizację, dać
ludziom ustrój gwarantujący równość, wolność i szczęście. Nikt
jednak tak jak J.Kaczyński swego tytułu do kolejnego rządzenia nie
wywodził z tego, że kiedyś rządził, zresztą bezskutecznie.

[qc]

dobre.

Czy ci PiSowscy kretyni

[mark6]

rzeczywiście wierzą, że ich "szyte grubymi nićmi" prowokacje
są dla Polaków nie do wykrycia? Czy ta banda rzeczywiście wierzy, że
dojdzie jeszcze kiedyś do władzy?

[jacekm22]

Robia co moga , a malo moga zeby podtrzymac swe zludzenia ..

Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

[legrange]

Okazuje się rządu Tusku, że aby zachować władzę czyli żłób, nie wystarczy
naskoczyć na PZPN i odebrać emeryturę Jaruzelskiemu - stojącemu w sądzie i nad
grobem, ale trzeba jeszcze mieć czyste ręce. Inna sprawa, to że PO w głupocie
przebiła SLD. SLD pozwoliło się zniszczyć dętą aferą Rywina, czyli zgodą na
komisję sejmową, a PO pozostawiła CBA w rękach swojego największego
przyjaciela. Sprawa Sawickiej nic PO nie oświeciła? Na co PO liczyła? Chyba,że
CBA będzie zbierać haki na Kwaśniewskich i SLD, a wam dogadzać. No to macie na
co żeście zasłużyli, bo nieuctwo i brak inteligencji to u polityków gorsze niż
jazda samochodem pod prąd. Życzę wam też, bo was polubiłem, aby wam dołożył
coś jeszcze IPN, na wzmocnienie rozumu.

[qc]

dla wyborcow pozyczonych przez PO od SLD to bedzie w dalszym ciagu
dylemat czy to jest przyjazn czy to jest kochanie.

Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

[tadek-1]

Kto Pana szkolil, Panie Jaroslawie Kaczynski? Gdzie Pana szkolono?. za ktora
granica, Panie Jaroslawie Kaczynski?. kto w waszej herarchi stoi wyzej?, guru
Rydzyk, czy Pan, Panie Jaroslawie Kaczynski?. Kto wpoil wam tak ogromna
nienawisc do Polski?. Nienawisc tak ogromna ze was wypala?. Czy byly to sluzby
tak znienawidzone przez Polakow? Dlaczego?.

Się ściemnić nie dam jegomościowi (x2)

[alienacz]

Pamiętam jeszcze nazi-kartoflaną koalicję i obciach... wy K.. i K.. nie
liczcie nowych przepustek do koryta nie będzie. A moheru coraz mniej!

[etoszek]

Ale niestety coraz więcej ludzi manipulowanych mediami... Gdyby posiadali trochę
rozumu to może by coś zrozumieli... Ale niestety to jest tylko POLSKA i nie ma
na co liczyć... Głosujcie dalej na PO a na pewno uczyni te zasrane obietnice z
którymi ma coś problem... Ale za to kasy coraz więcej dla swoich kolegów i
większa dziura w budżecie

[nie-tak]

etoszek napisał:

> Ale niestety coraz więcej ludzi manipulowanych mediami... Gdyby posiadali troch
> ę
> rozumu to może by coś zrozumieli... Ale niestety to jest tylko POLSKA i nie
ma> na co liczyć... Głosujcie dalej na PO a na pewno uczyni te zasrane obietnice
z> którymi ma coś problem... Ale za to kasy coraz więcej dla swoich kolegów i>
większa dziura w budżecie
************
Etoszku ja z zagranicy i media polskie nie maja na mnie wpływu, a z braci
bliźniaków śmieje się cały świat i z nimi nie chce rozmawia ani z preziem Obama,
już przecież wcześniej ci to napisałam a i tak nie dociera to do ciebie.

[alienacz]

Ale ja absolutnie nie gloryfikowałem tej"Platformy Obrotnych". Oni a PiS
dwugłowego, to jak wybierać dżumę lub cholerę.

tylko psychiatra - i to k l i n i c z n a

[david5555]

nic więcej nie pomoże

Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

[trefar]

Tuskofobia! W tym przypadku to śmiertelna choroba. Najlepszy lekarz
nie jest w stanie wyciągnąć pacjenta z tego obrzydlistwa. I choć
Tusk nie jest z mojej bajki, to jestem pewien że tym się nie
zainfekuje, a swoją drogą p.Jarosław jest tu żałosny.

Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

[rbj]

Tak oczywiście kaczorku - jak zwykle masz rację...
Tylko dlaczego Polacy tak cię nie lubią?
Zgadnij!
Podpowiem ci: jak coś powiesz to tylko ty w to wierzysz co mówisz.
To jest twój problem, tobie i twojemu PiSowi już
nikt nie uwierzy.
Chcesz zmienić swój image - ożeń się, zostań ojcem, wybuduj dom a wtedy
może...ale to raczej niemożliwe.

Pan K.przeciw CH,Drz?Zdradzili tajemnice panstwa.

[marek.lipski]

Szanowny Panie Kaczynski dlaczego nie zlozyl Pan
pozwu i sprawy karnej przeciw Panom Chlebowski,Drzewiecki
ktorzy ujawnili tajemnice panstwowa przekazujac,ujawniajac
tajemnice panstwa prywatnym osobom S &?
Pan ma obywatelstwo polskie,ktore pana zobowiazuje.
Rozumiem Pana rozterke.Hazard jest pod patronatem Rosjan.
Nie zalmuje sie polityka tylko martwie sie o demokracje.
Aby ta grypa i wirus w Polsce nie przeszedl do EU.

Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

[yanfhowah]

w "Kropce nad i" mozna bylo zobaczyc i uslyszec wypowiedz i
chichoty psychopaty-politycznego

Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

[kml-19]

Artykul przeczytalem nie bylo nic o przenosniach tylko ze dostl w ryj
kamieniem i tyle ..... masz zaklucenia w HD jak po akcji Ziobry?

Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

[hipek6]

kaczor uznał wszystkich za winnych. tako żekł był. i to jest jedyna
prawda objawiona. a j/---------/ cie pies. sorry to jest obraźliwe
dla każdego kundla. nigdy węcej kaczyzmu.

Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

[p531954661941]

Jak to czasy się zmieniają . Do niedawna można było uznać TVN24 za
obiektywną stację , od II kwartału br. zaś coraz bardziej liżącą
tyły Jaro .Tylko po to , by zwiększyć swoją oglądalność . Ile było
płaczu , kiedy PiS wprowadził bojkot tej stacji ? Szkoda mitręgi nad
zastanawianiem się , co ten typ i jego otoczenie myślą czy
opluwają , magnes ich foteli wzmógł przyciąganie w dół . Dla mnie -
parszywstwo .
Atak skoordynowany w trójcy : dwóch z jednego i Don Mario z krainy d
(r)eszczowców , carramba .
Wyborcy : nie dajmy się ogłupić , za rok będzie po wszystkim .

[jacekm22]

TVN24 znajduje sie na poziomie Faktu i SE , liczy sie tylko ogladalnosc
i zadymy .. Nawet wydawalo by sie powazna red Laszcz poddala sie tej
polityce ... Stacje ta ogladam sporadycznie , Superstacja z red
Paradowska lepsza i OBIEKTYWNIEJSZA !!

[etoszek]

Nie dajmy się ogłupić ! Ba ! już jesteście ogłupieni przez te media... Popatrz
jak PO i media nagłaśniały sprawy PIS-owskie... A teraz się czepiasz tego że
chcą aby PO w końcu poniosło konsekwencje? No po prostu jesteś skończonym
idiotom i jakbyś śledził porządne gazety (nie takie jak fakt czy superexpers) to
może by Ci coś zaświeciło w głowie... Chociaż trzeba by było te fakty powiązać z
czym byś miał chyba wielkie problemy...

[nie-tak]

etoszek jakie porządne gazety, są jakieś w Polsce? Jaki pan (ano prezydent z
swoim bratem)taki kram, co więcej wymagać pod ciebie bidulinko?
-------------------------------------------------------------

Afera i wirus hazardowy trwa od 2004 roku.Politycy

[marek.lipski]

obudzcie sie!Gdyz FBI ktora z CBA dobrze wspolpracowala
dostarczy wam nowych dowodow,ze hazard w Polsce,
jest pod patronatem Rosji.Czego politycy w Polsce
sie boja?Ze Rosjanie maja wasze kartoteki?
Nawet jesli tak.Mamy inne czasy.Pan Kaczynski i Pan Tusk
prowadza ta sama polityke tylko o innych barwach.
Te kolory sa dla spoleczenstwa a w rzeczywistosci
ich reakcje sie nie roznia.Mam nadzieje ze powstana
nowe partie w Polsce.

J.Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska.Pana rowniez.

[marek.lipski]

Pan ma prawo do pozwu przeciw politykom PO.
Wystarczy zapoznac sie z moimi komentarzami,podpisanymi
moim nazwiskiem:marek.lipski

Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

[auritus]

Całkowicie zgadzam się z panem Jarosławem Kaczyńskim. Od czterech
tygodni to jest przede wszystkim sprawa pana Donalda Tuska. Trzeba
dosadniej, niż p. Jarosław stwierdzić, że p. premier Tusk albo
świadomie dopuścił się przekroczenia prawa w postaci ostrzeżenia
osób podejrzanych, albo nie panuje nad pracą własnej kancelarii.
Obydwa powody dyskwalfikują go jako osobę dalej sprawującą funkcję
szefa rządu. Jednak prawa tzw. "demokracji" są w Izbie inne. I tu
jest problem drugi. Większość, nawet jeśli to przestępcy i osoby
sprzyjające przestępcom mogą przegłosować swoją wersję wydarzeń.

[ajatollah_rydzyk]

Jarkacz to rzekomo "wielki srateg", geniusz intelektu i wzór kultury politycznej, osobistej i medialnej, a pomimo upływu 2 lat jeszcze nie wie, że "pan Tusk" to jest "PREMIER TUSK". Ale Jaro, wzorując się się na "toruńskim proroku" swoim przeciwnikom odmawia oficjalnych tytułów (mimo, że skrupulatnie przestrzega w odniesieniu do moherów i pisiorów). PIS i RTadyjo to żałosne ludziki, przepełnione nienawiścią i pogardą do przeciwników lub rywali.

tylko tyle wyniosles z tego artykulu???

[rooboy]

auritius, jak mozesz oczekiwac panowania nad praca

[rooboy]

wlasnej kancelarii, skoro jedyna praca w przeszlosci jej szefa bylo
malowanie kominow???

[tomekjeden]

rooboy napisał:

> wlasnej kancelarii, skoro jedyna praca w przeszlosci jej szefa bylo
> malowanie kominow???

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Rooboy, cześć. Spoważniej, na miły Bóg. No co Ty? Jak można takie dyrdymały pisać?

pozdr,

t1

hi, t1. feeling better, i hope.

[rooboy]

tomekjeden napisał:

> rooboy napisał:
>
> > wlasnej kancelarii, skoro jedyna praca w przeszlosci jej szefa
bylo
> > malowanie kominow???
>
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> Rooboy, cześć. Spoważniej, na miły Bóg. No co Ty? Jak można takie
dyrdymały pis
> ać?
>
> pozdr,
>
> t1


have been worrying about you since our last conversation. what do
you mean get serious??? isn't it true??? the guy does not and has
never had any control over his cabinet, because he'd never had any
professional/corporate career before becoming pm... mind you, i
don't blame him for acting so indecisively, he just doesn't know how
to do it any better...

however i do feel sorry for him and particularly for drzewiecki,
hearing the sad news about the passing of drzewiecki's mother at
this particular time and from heartattack... they will never know if
she'd be still alive, had they acted more decisively when the issue
came to light... by this i mean that tusk could have done something
in mid-august when he first learned about the matter (apart from
warning both drzewiecki and chlebowski to cut all ties with the two
lobbying businessmen) while drzewiecki did not have to wait until
today to announce his resignation... the standard of this government
is so poor that it can hardly be any worse...

take care.

[tomekjeden]

Hi Rooboy,

I'm not here to take political sides. That never interested me. Although your
gentle critique of Mr Tusk cannot be taken as serious and as having solid
foundations. Never mind that. What I'm on about is this. If you follow the
various pre-election utterances of the then PM, Mr Jarosław Kaczyński, and of
his closely reigned in followers, back in the autumn of 2007, you will easily
discern a clear pattern of Mr J. Kaczyński concentrating his vitriol against his
main opponent, Mr Donald Tusk. That vitriol had an obvious political motive, and
it followed very clearly the then political pre-election calendar. Mr J.
Kaczyński decided, in one of his frequent moments of madness, that Mr Tusk was
in charge of some kind of mafia in the Baltic region of Poland. (I’m almost
quoting the little fellow here.) This the birthplace of "Solidarity", it is
also Mr Donald Tusk's home ground and power place, and it is also a place of
special importance to those who respect and admire Mr Lech Wałęsa. (Mr J.
Kaczyński tells lies about Mr Wałęsa, as well.) It seems that Mr J. Kaczyński
had instructed the boss of the CBA (Central Anticorruption Bureau), Mr Mariusz
Kamiński, to make sure that by the time the elections were announced Mr Tusk
should be compromised, and almost dead and buried. And so two innocent people,
Mrs Sawicka, a an MP from PO, Mr Tusk's party, and the mayor of Hel, Mr Mirosław
Wądołowski, were chosen to represent the corruption that Mr J. Kaczyński had
planned in his head. A trap had been laid. There was a whole team of CBA agents,
with its own HQ, running round Mrs Sawicka, honey entrapment, no costs spared,
and all. By the time she received the "corrupt" money, she had been under
constant pressure from CBA, to do exactly this!, since the spring, and possibly
since January, of 2007, until her arrest in October of that year. Mr Wądołowski
apparently had accepted, very unwittingly, a promotional business folder from
the CBA officers, parading as businessmen, without having the slightest
knowledge that the folder contained some 150000 zlotys, circa 30000 in sterling.
The whole thing was carefully timed to coincide with the impending Polish
parliamentary election. At the time of the arrests Mr J. Kaczyński said that the
electorate "should now know for whom not to vote". The very same words were
repeated, word for word !!! by the CBA boss Mr Kamiński, during
his official press conference, a few days later. Rooboy, can you imagine such a
show happening in a civilised democracy? The chief of the Central Anticorruption
Agency working directly to the script coming from the office of the prime
minister? Can you imagine, let's say, British or Australian procurators
deciding to charge anybody arrested after such flagrant political police action
sanctioned and overseen by the prime minister himself? Give me a break. All this
is so ridiculous that it can stretch any sane man's credulity. But, alas, and
sad as it is, it has happened. And the trial of those two unfortunates is now
underway, bringing shame to the good name of Poland in the world, and to her
judiciary in particular.

There has been a fresh development today, 6th October, 2009. The very boss of
the CBA, Mr Kamiński, has heard at the office of the Rzeszów Procurator charges
of abusing power, of being in charge of illegal CBA actions, of forging
documents, and of committing perjury. (All that to do with another action of the
CBA.) If the case goes to court, and if he is found guilty Mr Mariusz Kamiński
can go down for 8 years. Sanity is returning to Poland.

t1, are you sure you don't take sides???

[rooboy]

first of all thanks for the time you spent to write your essay. let
me deal with some of its points.

1. my criticism of tusk. obviously i meant to say it
jokingly,however it doesn't mean that it cannot be taken more
seriously, because it does have very, very solid foundations. tusk
is a lifelong career politician in opposition, prior to becoming a
pm, he'd never had any corporate/government/statutory body position
to gain some experience in basic management skills like, for
instance, people management. don't have the time to check, but
believe that he's only official posting while in opposition was the
speaker of the senate some time back, whereby his main achievement
was the overthrowing of the olszewski government, otherwise known
as "nightshift". why the olszewski government had to be shot i don't
have to tell you i believe. given his limited experience in
management, he manages his troops by threats, fear and humiliation,
all of them public. examples? public threats to grabarczyk (?) to
complete contracts for a section of a freeway by a certain date or
face the sack. public threats to grad to sell the shipyards or face
the sack. public kiss of death to drzewiecki to prove his innocence
to the public or face the sack. outbursts of anger during cabinet
meetings as reported by the press. i believe i have proved my point.
i understand that polish and australian cultures are vastly
different, but i have never noticed these kind of behaviours from
either our pms (and i have witnessed a few by now) or the state
premiers...

2. i don't condone the actions of cba and kaczynski as described by
you. to say more, i am disgusted by the methods employed to crash
their opponents. however poland nowadays looks up to the states as
being the pattern for everything and provocation is considered a
legitimate and extremely usefool tool by both fbi and cia. take the
very first example from the net...

justgetthere.us/blog/archives/Hal-Turner-Admits-He-Worked-for-the-FBI.html#

if americans can master it, so can cba, abw and cbs in poland. is,
or has been (at least some of) it planned by the highest level of
governemnt in poland?? possibly yes, but i have no doubt that many
of fbi, cia provocations are prepared in conjunction with the
american hierarchy, too. personally i'm disgusted by such approach,
but i'm equally disgusted by palikot's public questioning of the
kaczynski's gender and the public ridicule that follows...

3. are you sure you don't take political sides??? i made a
lighthearted, one-sentence criticism of tusk's ability to manage and
at first you have tried to ridicule my comment and then (when i
attempted to defend my original point) you have unleashed the
heaviest artillery (and a page long too) against kaczynski and
kaczynski-controlled cba... any particular reason why you have
devoted your entire post to kaczynski's and kaminski's alleged
misdeeds since i gave you none in my previous posts???

let me stress again, kaczynskis are not my preferred candidates to
lead poland in the future... there might be some aspects of their
policies that i do subscribe to (most notably their desire to ensure
poland's level of independence rather than total and unreserved
dependency on brussels)... i can't say much more on that because
their energy is consumed not on promoting their policies but on
weakening and eliminating their political opponents as you rightly
state... this part of their operations i'm disgusted with as i'm not
happy with their brown-nosing of the states... however, i'm also not
happy with tusk as his and his government's main focus is to deliver
him the presidency at any cost and in the meantime the average
polish joe bloggs suffers...


4. final point... i hope in the above i have pretty much agreed with
you on kaczynski and his standards, so we are more or less in
agreement on this, but the outstanding matter is our disconnect on
tusk's management abilities and i would welcome some honest debate
with you on this one...


take care

rooboy

couple of minor corrections...

[rooboy]

these kinds of behaviour rather than these kind of behaviours
useful not usefool, although in poland there are many fools who are
being or can be used, the thought of which led to my misspelling...
you would say kaminski is one of such usefools...

RE: t1, are you sure you don't take sides??.

[tomekjeden]

Hi Rooboy,

very briefly, or we'll be at it for a long time. Sorry, for being unkind about
your comments about Mr Tusk. He shouts and can be abrupt, you say. I would have
thought that Mr Tusk has been far to mellow in his approach towards his
ministers so far. (I have not read anything in detail about the latest
developments in Poland today.) Leading by fear and public humiliation? Don't
think so. Let's differ on this one, and on his limited experience of managing
people.

Your point about the Poles working closely with the American agencies is
extremely important, and immediately pertinent to the pre-election CBA action,
in 2007, directed by the PM of the day, Mr Jarosław Kaczyński, against the then
opposition party, PO (Citizens' Platform), resulting in the arrest of two
innocent victims of that action, Mrs Sawicka, the MP, and Mr Wądołowski, the
mayor of Hel. Both are now standing trial in Poland on corruption charges. At
the beginning of the action CBA requested the help of FBI in helping to build a
fictional business CV of some of the CBA agents. The main provocateur was
an agent called Tomasz, who was responsible for making Mrs Sawicka emotionally
dependent on him, during the CBA grooming of her, to make her accept a bribe.
They met for the first time in the January of the year 2007, Mrs Sawicka was
arrested in October of that year. FBI collaborated happily, having been
hoodwinked by CBA into believing that a major anti-corruption action was being
set up. However, when they got the drift of what was really happening, a dirty
pre-election campaign of lies and totally illegal special action organised to
discredit the main opposition party, they quickly withdrew their assistance,
divorcing themselves from CBA.

Am I taking political sides? Well, in my views about the present day situation
in Poland, which are in agreement with the views of many Poles, I mean I do not
say anything original or out of the ordinary, I look at the ethics and the
methods used by Polish political parties. Mr Kaczyński’s methods fill me with
disgust and revulsion. If that is a political stance, then be it. Anyway, we
are in agreement on this.


Take care,

t1

P.S. Don’t worry about any mistakes in your text. They are unavoidable, when
writing quickly and without the rigours of correction required for a published
text. The “GW” forums are not meant for that. I saw my text again today. You
know, reigned in and reined in. And I used to teach riding, when still a
teenager in Warsaw.

so, you do agree with me on tusk after all...

[rooboy]

despite your suggestions to differ, i sense that you notice tusk's
shortcomings in his management abilities, particularly people
management... you say that to your liking he has been far too mellow
in his approach to his ministers... so, he's either a good people
manager or far too mellow, you can't have both at the same time.
with being far too mellow i fully agree which is not to say that i
withdraw my previous comments about managing his ministers by public
threats and public humiliation. both these traits of his are typical
(in my opinion) for the polish person in general. everything is
either white or black, they do not see much in-between. his
mellowness is for a reason though, he wants to preserve his "mr nice
guy" image until the presidential elections in 12 months or so and
he needs to juggle it with the heavy approach to ensure that he does
not start to be seen as a toothless tiger oir a gummy shark...
difficult act, i must say... from my experience, maintaining a
steady line of being firm but fair pays far better dividends than
jumping from one extreme to the other...

let me go further... he's not only lacking in people management
skills, his team selection decisions leave a lot to be desired, too.
couple of examples... sacking one of a few (if not the only one)
professionals from his team (cwiakalski) was a really bad one,
although it was immediately "bettered" by a really disastrous one in
promoting czuma (who is finally gone as i understand)... pitera has
done sfa during the last two years in office... the list could go
on, but i'm running out of time for this morning, so i have to stop
it there...


just a quick request for advice from an expert.... niedawno na tym
forum zasugerowano mi, ze musze popracowac nad swoja ortografia...
nie bardzo mogac dociec w czym rzecz, poprosilem o wskazowki i
okazalo sie, ze zwrocilem sie do tej osoby poprzez "ty" z malej
litery, a nie z wielkiej. na moja sugestie, ze raczej nie jest to
blad ortograficzny, a jesli juz to grzecznosciowo/stylistyczny,
poradzono mi, abym juz sie wiecej nie kompromitowal. czy pisanie na
tym forum ty z malej to faktycznie blad ortograficzny???

look froward to your advice on the above. while on this subject,
lower or upper case, any progress with the english i or are you
satisfied that it's all due to medieval scribes???

take care and don't do anything i wouldn't do

rooboy

[tomekjeden]

Hiya, Rooboy

Oh, well. Let us differ then. Cannot agree with you about Mr Tusk. Not one little bit. Follow his public statements from the past few years, and you should, hopefully!, see how atypical he is, from your generalised picture of a Polish person, in his refined ability to spot niceties and different shades of opinion, when presenting his arguments. That is his real weak side. Not the blinkered white and black vision of the world, which you ascribe to him so ungenerously.

Pisanie "ty" z małej litery nie jest błędem ortograficznym, ściśle rzecz biorąc. "Ty" piszemy z dużej litery, w ramach epistolarnej poprawności grzecznościowej. Idzie o szacunek dla adresata naszej wypowiedzi. Ale Ty wszystko piszesz z małej litery, nawet angielskie "I", które pisze się zawsze i obligatoryjnie z dużej litery, piszesz "i". To się nie przejmuj. Język nie jest oparty na zbiorze sztywnych reguł. Liczy się bardziej treść niż formalny aspekt języka.

OK. Once more. When the old "ic", compare the German "Ich", started to change into the present "i", a change in pronounciation, the scribes found it easier to adopt the upper case, for the sake of clarity. This is well documented in countless extanct manuscripts, and no other explanation is possible.

pozdr

t1

you are leading me down the garden path, t1....

[rooboy]

one has to be very careful on this forum... one unfortunate word,
phrase or statement and people pounce on that before you have
another opportunity to clarify your thought or elaborate a bit more
on it...

perhaps a bit carelessly (and possibly quite unnecessarily) when
assessing tusk's method of jumping from one extreme to the other
when managing his people, i suggested in my previous post that he
acted like a typical pole while doing so... you have taken advantage
of it and stated that you couldn't agree with me on tusk, because
he's anything but a typical pole...

two comments on this...

1. i have never suggested that he's a typical pole. in fact i agree
with you that he's not, because he doesn't come from a "true blue"
polish background both familywise and locationwise, meaning that his
ancestors had blood other than polish in their veins and his place
of birth is not a traditionally polish territory since mieszko or
even jagiello... notwithstanding the above, due to the fact that he
has been brought up in a "polish" environment, he has acquired some
(i repeat: some, not all) polish national traits like the one i
talked about previously...

2. more importantly... throughout this discussion my main point has
always been that he is an average or below average manager due to
his lack of exposure to managerial positions/tasks in the past. in
opposition you plot and plot, and plot, not manage. that's what he's
done all his life. so, rather than doing to me what the title of
this post suggests and dispute his personal traits as typically
polish or not, can you answer a very simple question - is he, in
your view, a good manager, including people manager???


thanks for the advice on lower/upper case "ty"... that's exactly
what i thought, but it's nice to get a confirmation from the expert.
i promise i won't ask about the english i any more, looks like no
matter how many times i ask, i'm always gonna get the same answer.
however, have you completed your little homework titled "what are
you doing this weekend"???

take care.
rooboy

[tomekjeden]

Rooboy, zostawmy Pana Tuska w spokoju. Dzielny i znakomity z niego Polak. Nic
dodać, nic ująć. Poczytaj sobie Tazbira, czy Daviesa. Ręce opadają.

Kiedy się pytam o plany na weekend to otrzymuję różne odpowiedzi. Ten będzie
malował kuchnię, a tamten jedzie do babci na herbatę. Niebawem to się zaczną
weekendowe zakupy na "Xmas". Tylko co to ma wspólnego z pisownią angielskiego "I"?

pozdr

t1

t1, garden path longer than i thought???

[rooboy]

looks that way... anyway, i acknowledge your statement that tusk is
a "dzielny i znakomity polak" and i also acknowledge your right not
to answer my question. this stops that part of our discussion, i
guess.

just out of my curiosity.... what do you read books that can make
you depressed for??? isn't it better to go for a walk??? and the
best walk that i can recommend is a walk on a golf course... nothing
improves your mental health and self-esteem any better than a
perfectly executed golf shot... in my case, my brain has this useful
ability to block all the 50 bad ones from my memory and focus only
on that perfect one... provided, of course, that it did happen...

back to the english i... i promised not to ask about it again and i
will keep my word. the little questionnaire is unrelated and stems
from a different theme of our discussion if you can recall...

take care

rooboy


ps. nasz dzielny i znakomity polak has got his work cut out for him
now...

RE: t1, garden path longer than i thought??...

[tomekjeden]

Hiya Rooboy,

Yes, OK. Mr Tusk is not, or had not been, till the most recent developments, as
good a manager as he should have been. This has led to the present crisis, one
could perhaps even say, constitutional crisis, where the boss of a political
police force, parading as an anticorruption bureau (CBA), openly challenges the
rule of law by attacking the office of the Procurator, and accuses the PM
himself of not telling the truth. (And that’s "the tip of the iceberg".) Mr
Tusk's procrastination in putting CBA in its proper legal framework is not a
good testimony to the qualities of his management. He is not alone. Politicians
are notoriously bad managers. Politicking without good management results in bad
politicking. Consider also the present government's failure to put matters right
at TVP/Telewizja Polska (Polish public television). When Mr Tusk came to power
the chairman of the board there was a former neo-Nazi (this description of him
is quite kosher, approved by a Polish court) a bloke called Farfał. (Can you
imagine the BBC, or your ABC, with a neo-Nazi in charge?). Now, this bloke
Farfał was placed there when the PM was Mr Jarosław Kaczyński. The neo-Nazi has
now been removed, after a long legal battle, and TVP is now back in the hands of
Mr Kaczyński's party (PiS), and of the post-Communists (SLD). They have just
shared the spoils between their own people, thus removing the possibility of TVP
becoming an independent public broadcaster in the near future. Mr Tusk, however,
has always been a strong and vociferous advocate of TVP becoming a totally
apolitical broadcasting entity. He has been in the office now for two years.
Even allowing for a very primitive Polish legal culture and understanding of
public responsibility - a really huge and crucial obstacle this, directly
attributable to the cultural legacy of 40 years of Communist rule in Poland - it
is a long time for any PM to allow for a main television broadcaster to be able
to set up what is in effect a team of "journalists" and producers, whose aim is
to prevent unbiased and honest presentation of facts. And this as a result of
removing a neo-Nazi!!! Just think Rooboy. Elections in a year's time and the
BBC, or ABC, are taken over by two political parties in order to have political
control over the news and current affairs. And they call themselves European;
you know the traditions of democracy and rule of law, and all that. Thus TVP is
now in the hands of Mr Tusk's political adversaries - what's more, he will be
their main target - paid for by the licence payer. (Mr Tusk wants to scrap the
licence fee, as part of a program of reform of the media to make them
apolitical. A very bad idea.) Is that good management? No, it is not. But it is
a different sort of bad management, from the one imputed to Mr Tusk by you. A
quirky combination of too much politicking and honesty seems to be the cause for
Mr Tusk's present bad times. A civilised and well mannered liberal that he is,
he does not seem to respond quickly enough to the shit that is directed at him.
He is behaving as if he were in a truly civilised and pluralistic system. Alas
he is not. Who knows, perhaps it is not a bad way to behave, rather than
lowering himself to the level of Mr Kaczyński, or some neo-Nazi, whose
understanding of, the rule of law, free speech, and civilised public debate, is
totally beyond the pale of what is acceptable in a supposedly free country. Mr
Tusk certainly has got his work cut out now, as you rightly say.

Rooboy, I have no problem with reading books by Janusz Tazbir or Norman Davies.
I was not impressed by your definition of nationality. Never mind.

Przypomnij mi łaskawie o tym "i". Coś sobie kojarzę, ale nie do końca. Jestem
przekonany, że nikomu nie przeszkadzamy na tym forum. Nikt przecież tego nie
czyta. Proponuję jednak jeszcze tylko jeden drobny tekst, czekam na to "i", i do
ponownego spotkania niedługo, pod innym już tematem.

Pozdr ciepło,

t1

now you're talking, t1....

[rooboy]

up to a certain extent, that is...

yes, i had agreed previously that cba and their methods was a
problem... however let's not reach the conclusion that tusk's
current problems stem from his reluctance (inability due to his
management limitations?) to deal with reforming the cba to serve its
statutory purpose rather than serve a political party in opposition
to the present government... i do not think that cba
somehow "convinced" two gambling industry executives/criminals
to "influence" po government ministers to act not in the best
interests of the society that elected them to lead the country. i
also do not think that cba created the situation related to
shipyards' privatisation whereby po government associates were
buying affiliate companies of the shipyard's parent company for
peanuts and then the parent company was repaying the debt owned to
the affiliate, thus creating an instant several hundred percent
windfall profit to the purchaser. ultimately tusk and tusk alone is
responsible for the widespread corruption within his government and
his inability to address this situation confirms that he is a poor
manager whichever area of management we look at (or i look at, if
you will).

tv... i absolutely agree with you that in a fair and just world the
situation with the control of tvp is not ideal, to say the least.
however the polish world is neither fair nor just. there are
numerous commercial tv stations that are openly hostile to the
current opposition and heavily supportive of the government of the
day. similarly with the press and we are currently corresponding
with each other utilising the forum of one of them. obviously it
happens all over the world, but, in a civilized world, never with
such intensity and "in your face"... i am a big fan of equilibrium
within all aspects of life and a pro-pis state tv provides a bit of
a counterbalance to the pro-po stations and titles... although, as
stated above, in principle i am against a pro-party state tv, but in
this particular case i'm prepared to tolerate it in the interest of
a "fair go", which is possibly the best motto of my country of
residence of choice. just in support of the fair go principle i may
for time to time be defending staunched pis supporter when he or she
is attacked by 10 or more po supporters on this forum. which does
not mean that i agree with his or her views on the topic at hand...

can you elaborate a bit why you're not impressed with my view
(wouldn't call it a definition) of nationality??? i was not born
where i live, my ancestors had not had the local blood in their
veins and i haven't even been brought up in here, yet when you look
into my passport i am a local national. am i a true blue aussie???
bloody oath i'm not. my son who was born here tells me to go back to
my country, poland, when doesn't like what i say to him and it may
be related to local vs polish customs... he wouldn't say that to any
of his mates, who were born here...i'm as good an aussie as i can
be, but in earnest i'm an australian citizen of polish
nationality... similarly tusk is a polish citizen of some other
(german, prussian, casubian?) nationality...

if my memory serves me right, long time ago we were discussing the
traits of anglosaxon ethnic group and, without revealing my theory,
i proposed the origin/reason for a lower case i and the little
questionnaire to be completed prior to discussing the theory
itself... i have to concede though that i cannot base my theory on
the lower case i any more... your explanation holds water no matter
how you look at it and it makes a lot of common sense too.


take care

rooboy

ps. as you suggest let's wait for a new subject to continue our
discussions in the future.

just a minor addition, t1...

[rooboy]

have read your note again and and cannot help thinking that you are
very pasisonate about this whole situation with farfal and the tvp
being now controlled by the po's political opponents...

like it or not, i put it down to tusk's bad management and bad
politicing... if my memory serves me right (and please correct me if
i'm wrong) some 6-8 months ago po prepared let's call it "media
regulations" that were extremely likely to be vetoed by the
president. in their arogance and ignorance, the regulations were
written in such a way that the control of the state media would over
time transfer to the government. po hierarchy were thinking that sld
will help defeat the veto in a parliament vote as they would not
support pis... they were wrong... good manager/politician would
develop the media regulations in conjunction with sld, thus ensuring
the defeat for the veto, should one occur... however in order to
achieve that one would have to negotiate and compromise, do a bit of
give and take and po, in their arogance, ignorance and stupidity
wanted everything for themselves...

so don't cry over the current situation now, po had their chance to
get 70-80% of what they had wanted (the rest would go to sld), but
if someone wants 100% the likely outcome is 0%... someone tell tusk
what a win-win negotiation is...

cya

rooboy

[tomekjeden]

Yes, as I wrote earlier. Too much politicking not enough good management. Don't
forget that SLD is not a good partner to agree with on public media freedom.
They are almost as bad as PiS. PO is in a difficult situation over this one.
However, PO will pull through, and Mr Tusk will be the next Polish president.

Nikt tego nie czyta, znaczy się nikomu nie przeszkadzamy, admin, czy moderator,
nie wysyła ostrzeżeń. To jeszcze możemy sobie pourzędować. Przecież cały czas
piszemy na temat.

[tomekjeden]

Sorry Rooboy, this one will be the last one. Cannot let you get away with a string of typical PiS untruths, which are being manipulated into the public domain as some kind of holy writ.

1. We do not know what happened exactly with the gaming industry bill. So far not even CBA has suggested that any laws have been broken by any of Mr Tusk's ministers. It is the same with the situation at the shipyards. Just because you have fallen prey to such a basic manipulation - you have established guilt in law where none has been established even by the dirty tricksters from PiS- it does not mean that what you say has any truth in it. But that is the way they operate, and they've taken you by the scruff of your neck to rub your nose in the "hot stuff" of their own making. Now, Mr Kamiński, the departing head of CBA, has got already some very serious criminal charges levelled against him by a procurator. There might yet be another charge - to do with what?, you may exclaim Rooboy, with a surprise and reluctance of a man who is afraid of having his eyes prized wide, wide open to see all the dirty machinations, of which he's been a crazed victim hereto, laid bare in front of him, once and for all - presented to Mr Kamiński. When Mr Tusk became PM, two years ago, he ordered that the privatisation of Polish shipyards be given a "counter-intelligence umbrella", to make sure that everything was being played straight. Makes sense, does it not, Rooboy? Your observations about blatant thieving through establishing phoney sister companies are quite justified. However, there is no truth that those sister companies had been acquired by anybody from PO, Mr Tusk's party. What gave you this idea? CBA did. And CBA is one of the agencies responsible for looking after the privatisation of the shipyards. In investigating the privatisation CBA was not acting against Mr Tusk, it was FOLLOWING his instructions that there be this “counter-intelligence umbrella”. Or, rather, it was only pretending to follow the instructions of Mr Tusk, the PM. CBA reports to Mr J. Kaczyński, breaking totally its statutory duty and obligations. Mr Kamiński is on his way out. He has little time before he can discharge his duty to Mr Jarosław Kaczyński, that is to discredit Mr Tusk in any way possible, paying no heed to truth, decency and common sense. Time is against him. So he does his stuff, and sends what he has on the shipyard deals to senior government officials. What he should have done was to inform the office of the Procurator first. But that would have limited the effect of "disclosure" of the shady dealings at the shipyards. However, and now comes the interesting bit. What Mr Kamiński has not noticed is that a former senior minister from the Chancellery of the Polish President, Mr Robert Draba, can be possibly implicated in a shady dealing to do with the long-running privatisation of the Polish shipyards. Now, the Polish President is a staunch supporter of PiS, he is scared stiff of running for presidency against Mr Tusk in a year's time, and he is the twin brother of Mr Jarosław Kaczyński, who, in turn, is really, as I noticed earlier, in charge of CBA. Mr Kamiński will now be investigated by the office of the National Procurator, for failing to follow the due legal process, when reporting possible lawbreaking. It is not the rule of law that Mr Kamiński is trying to uphold. His brief is to prepare ground for President Lech Kaczyński in his fight for the Polish presidency next year.

2. I find you comments about TVP astounding. Let’s, once more, go for an analogy. “The Sun”, and Mr Rupert Murdoch, have decided to back one particular party before parliamentary elections in Britain. (That funny show happens every four years.) So the other two parties go to the BBC and demand biased presentation for the duration of the campaign, because they want to have a “fair go”. Rooboy, are you mad? Go back to Poland!

3. I suggested that you read Tazbir or Davies to get some idea of the development of the Polish notion of nationality. (You know, so many languages, religions, lovely jazz.) However let’s stick to your readymade definition. There’s no need to complicate matters more. Forget the reading. Your son is Australian, because was born in Australia. Now, Mr Tusk was born in Poland. Why that does not make him Polish? If Mr Tusk is not Polish, then your son is not Australian. Rooboy, go back to Poland!


pzdr ciepło,

t1

t1, take a deep breath and count to ten...

[rooboy]

i sense too much emotion, not enough rationality in you last post...
are you sure you're not working for the tusk's pr department???

let's go through them one by one...

1. cba does not manupulate me, but you're trying hard to... where in
my previous post have i suggested that chlebowski, drzewiecki and
schetyna committed a criminial act while dealing with the gaming
industry execs/crims??? all i said was that they had not acted in
the best interest of the polish society and i hope you can see the
difference between the two... we see almost daily reports of
projects that had been planned for euro2012, which are now being
scrapped due to various reasons although one the one most often
suggested is the lack of time. well, let me tell you, in the
construction industry money can buy time... crews can be working
around the clock, long lead items can be pushed up the queue if
financial incentives are offerred, etc, etc... why then drzewiecki
writes a letter to the finance ministry that he doesn't need the
gaming levy funds when projects which could contribute to the
showcasing of poland during one of the biggest sporting events
worldwide are being scrapped??? because they decided to help their
golfing mates rather than the polish people who elected them to
their positions (now ex-positions and good on you tusk for forcing
them to resign)... cba's got nothing to do with it, they did not
force any of the individuals in question to collaborate to make the
gaming guys richer (i purposely exclude the politicians from stating
thet they would be richer as well, because they obviously wouldn't
be that corrupt and bad, wanting something in return after putting
470mln pln in the gaming guys' pockets) at the expense of the polish
population.

shipyards... again, from where your idea that i said that the scam
had been designed to benefit members of the po party??? read my
previous notes, in one of them t said that one had to be very
careful on this forum when expressing his/her views or otherwise may
be shot for one unfortunate word... i try to choose my words
carefully... i said "po government associates" - meaning people who
have some sort of connection with the po government, could be
social, sporting, family, whatever, not necessarily party ties.
people from the privatisation team (who do form a po government,
being employees of the state treasury reporting to grad) didn't call
me to offer me a nice little affiliate company for say 10mln pln,
which would recover debts to the value of say 50mln pln soon after
the settlement... they called their associates, therefore it was po
government who chose who to call, isn't that right??? even if some
obscue pis person by the name of draba was involved, it doesn't
change things much.... all it means is that he is some kind of
associate of a member of the po government (shipyards' privatisation
team)...


kaminski... you are accusing me of establishing guilt in the gaming
scam (i hope you are big enough to retract this) while at the same
time you do exactly that to kaminski... i don't know the guy, it may
be the case that kaczynski's pulling all the strings, but it's the
bad manager tusk, who has allowed to be driven into a corner... due
to his laziness and lack of managerial experience and his utmost
reluctance to deal with the hard issues he's wasted 2 years to set
the cba straight... now he's damned if he does and damned if he
doesn't sack kamisnki... if he does sack kaminski, it will look like
shooting the messenger, regardless of how much kaminski had been
politically motivated to do what he's done recently... people will
remember this during the election time and it does fall into po's
pattern anyway... shoot the messenger if the news is not po party
positive... remember kudrycka's knee-jerk decision to audit the
history dept of the uj following the zyzak's book.... pis will not
let anybody forget and i have a suspicion that there's more to
come...

if you do work for tusk's pr department (or have other connections
with them) pass my advice to tusk... stop going after kaminski and
do it now... let the proper bodies investigate the cba-reported
misconduct allegations in an open and transparent fashion... if the
outcome is that there was nothing much in them and the cba seriously
breached their rules, there will be a good and valid reason to sack
kaminski and the public will not give two hoots about him any
more... if the outcome is that the allegations are serious and
substantiated, provided tusk is not implicated in any of them, he
will emerge as a strong leader and one who sends a clear message to
his government that corruption will not be tolerated at all levels
of life in poland... at that time work to reform cba can commence to
ensure their impartiality, with kaminski or without...

otherwise, if kaminski is sacked now and the investigation is a
whitewash, kaminski will be seen as a martyr, shot while searching
for the truth and tusk's credibility will suffer even more...


2. i stand by my comments. i don't find your sun example all that
convincing... i don't follow the political alliegances of the
british media that closely, but from memory the sun is the paper
with bare boobs on page 3??? a rather working class paper??? haven't
they supported labour for quite a few years just as the majority of
the working class do??? obviously there are other titles that
support the conservatives, there is no need to run to bbc for biased
support. while it's not as good as it used to be (in my opinion),
the general standard of journalism in the uk when compared to polish
standards is like comparing man utd with arka gdynia regarding all
aspects, including but not limited to professionalism, history,
tradition, achievements, etc, etc. london had its first underground
line in 1860's, about a year or two before warsaw got its first
permanent bridge (most kierbedzia) across the vistula river... so
you're trying to compare chalk and cheese... as i said before, the
support lent to po by the likes of tvn, tvn24, polsat is heavy,
while the criticism is savage and in your face... all tricks are
allowed - laughing off, irony, humiliation, etc, etc... i can't
recall any po person leaving olejniks' studio having been upset by
her behaviour towards that person, but i do recall several incidents
of this nature involving piss people... any reason why she's soft
with her questioning of one party and ruthless (and often rude) of
the other??? i don't mind if a counterbalance to all that exists,
albeit in principle i am against a pro-party national tv station...
why sending me to poland and suggesting i'm mad??? do you reckon
they're all mad there, so i will fit well??? i'm not mad, i've
explained my reasons why i am prepared to deviate from my beliefs on
the tv ownership/bias rules and i say that because this is what i
truly think, and not because kaczynski will like what i say.
frankly, i don't give a damn what he thinks about me.


3. hey, let not get hot under the collar because i have a simple
definition of nationality. i like things being simple. einstein
said: everything should be as simple as possible, but not simpler.
my definition is as simple as i can make it, but not simpler. you
are defending tusk's nationality and are trying to make my
definition too simple. following your definition, john mcenroe was
born in west germany, that makes him a good german national, nicht
wahr??? let's leave my son at the moment and concentrate on tusk...
why manipulate my words again??? according to what i said before,
tusk was not born on territory that for centuries has been a
traditionally polish one... administratively his place of birth was
not strictly polish less than 20 years before his birth,

[tomekjeden]

Rooboy,

this is getting boring. I was expecting that you'd shift the goalposts and well,
I'll be darned.

Did you see the TVN "Fakty" today? Is that 100 years old Australian lady,
scoring over 4 metres in shot-put, and getting a gold medal, you?

pozdr

t1

you were supposed to take a deep breath

[rooboy]

and count to ten, not jumping at me half way through my note...

sleep on it and think about it with your mind and not with emotions
before you comment.

where did it shift the goalposts??? i'm straight down the line, just
like glenn mcgrath has always been.

haven't watched tvn (by the way, i do not get tvn, we get itvn in
here) for the last two weeks and do not know what you're talking
about.

have to go now, sweet dreams.

rooboy

[tomekjeden]

Hi, Rooboy

I will be brief.

1. You did say in one of your posts something about corruption within PO. So far
none has been found. Read today's news from Poland.

I quote: ". ultimately tusk and tusk alone is
responsible for the widespread corruption within his government and
his inability to address this situation confirms that he is a poor
manager ..."

Rooboy, there is no corruption in the PO government.

2. I am not a PR man for PO. Rooboy relax. This forum is now read by just the
two of us, I reckon. What we write is of no interest or importance to anybody.
Do you really think that any decision makers are reading the "GW" forums? Most
unlikely. So I will not pass on to Mr Tusk your advice, which you have so
generously given free of charge.

3. Are you saying that Poland is not ready for a civilised and independent
public television service? Why not? Do you not think that PiS has done enough
damage to the process of Polish democratisation?

4. I do not understand your views on nationality.

pozdr

t1

[tomekjeden]

Hi, Rooboy

I will be brief.

1. You did say in one of your posts something about corruption within PO. So far
none has been found. Read today's news from Poland.

I quote you: "… ultimately tusk and tusk alone is responsible for the widespread
corruption within his government, and his inability to address this situation
confirms that he is a poor manager...”

Rooboy, there is no corruption in the PO government.

2. I am not a PR man for PO. What on earth gave you this idea? I'm an ordinary
citizen expressing his views. Just like you. Rooboy relax. This forum is now
read by just the two of us, I reckon. What we write here is of no interest or
importance to anybody. Do you really think that any decision makers are reading
the "GW" forums? Most unlikely. So I will not pass on to Mr Tusk your advice,
which you have so generously given free of charge. One advice of yours is that
Mr Tusk does not sack Mr Kamiński. Rooboy, Mr Kamiński has got serious criminal
charges laid against him, of abusing power, of being in charge of illegal CBA
operations, of forging documents, of committing perjury. Not bad for a chief of
state anticorruption bureau. How can Mr Tusk not sack him? Do you
really think Mr Tusk can afford to ignore the present situation, and the serious
criminal charges facing Mr Mariusz Kamiński, without risking damaging his
credibility? Apart from the fact, that if found guilty, Mr Kamiński could face
imprisonment of up to 8 years, he is also a serious threat to the
constitutional stability of Poland. Mr Tusk is guilty of a serious error to do
with Mr Kamiński. He should have sacked him two years ago.

3. Are you saying that Poland is not ready for a civilised and independent
public television service? Why not? Do you not think that PiS has done enough
damage to the process of Polish democratisation? Twenty years have passed from
the fall of Communism. And there still is external political pressure and
censorship at TVP. Just because there are politicians afraid of free debate,
does that mean that they should have any say in the running of a public
broadcaster? They want to be free to limit my freedom. But I want to be free, as
well. Is that not reasonable?

4. I do not understand your views on nationality. I used your son's example only
because you seem to have proposed a syllogism.

pozdr

t1

well t1, i will be brief, too...

[rooboy]

1. i take your point. too strong a word i used. what i meant was
unethical, self-interest and interest of the associates behaviour
that the members of the government and po party pursue rather than
the interest of the society and the country as a whole that the po
government have the mandate for.

2. i take your word you're not. you acted so emotionally that i
thought you had to have some connection with the current government.
i hear what you say about kaminski... in my book he's innocent until
proven guilty, is it different in yours??? in my country he would
step aside or be asked to step aside or ultimately be forced to step
aside for the duration of the trial on full pay. he would then be
sacked if proven giulty by the courts or reinstated to his post if
cleared. allegations form no proper basis for sacking him now.

3. you do not want to understand my view on this. i have stated
number of times that a state tv should be independent, however the
present polish commercial stations favour po so much (unreservedly)
and criticise pis so savagely that there would be no equilibrium in
all this if tvp wasn't biased towards pis. let's not forget however,
that the media bill proposed by the po did not guarantee the tvp's
independence - it guaranteed tvp's bias towards po, so what's the
diff??? you are free - nothing stopping you watching tvn24, then tvp
and then drawing your own conclusions. there are two sides to every
story, all depends on who's telling it.

4. not sure which part you don't you understand. a true polish
national is born within true polish territory of true, polish born
and bred parents. it's quite simple. i will give you an example to
illustrate it further. you claim that kaczynski creates all this
negative havoc within polish political life. i would even say that
he's hijacked the party to push his own ideas, not necessarily
shared by his co-members... is he truly polish??? according to my
definition he's not. from memory his father comes from somewhere up
north-east, not sure whether it was poland, germany or lithuania at
the time of his birth and his mother comes from odessa... hardly a
polish place... think about that. by the same token though, one
could say that a not-true-pole (in my book) tusk has hijacked his
party to pursue his own dream of presidency rather than doing the
organic work for the polish joe bloggs... the true poles stand back
and let others, like kaczynski and tusk, take initiative and run
with their own agendas, hassling each other in the process that
brings nothing good for poland and her people... but that's the true
polish nature (i mean letting others take the front seat or best
seat in the house) - gosc w dom, bog w dom... tylko ze ani
kaczynski, ani tusk dobrymi bogami dla polski nie sa... think about
that too.

take care

rooboy

ad4, to put it bluntly, t1...

[rooboy]

following my description of nationality, both main actors on the
polish political scene are, to some not-so-small extent, poland's
guests, who take unfair advantage of (or outright abuse) polish
hospitality, chasing their own personal goals at the polish
population's and poland's wellbeing expense...


ad2 stand down or be stood down rather than step aside is probably a
better description of what would happen to kaminski down under given
his current predicament... allegations or even criminal charges
would not cause his sacking until the judicial process is completed,
but with charges over him he would be unfit to hold office until
he's cleared, or else...

[tomekjeden]

Right, so neither Mr Tusk nor Mr Kaczyński are truly Polish. According to your
definition of nationality, which seems to be: "Między Bugiem a Nysom, to
najważniesze my som!" Well, those two exteritorials would be surprised if they
saw your comments.

Mr Kamiński would not resign of his own accord. In response he only attacked
publicly the procurator, who had just charged him. Nobody is suggesting that he
is guilty. Where did you get that idea from?

pozdr

t1

bingo, t1! now that you've grasped the concept

[rooboy]

tell me, are we two true poles or just the one of us???

btw. i wouldn't worry too much about the two individuals in
question. as usual, kaczynski will protest his inocence, while
tusk... he might actually recall his own words
regarding "polishness"...

"Co pozostanie z polskości, gdy odejmiemy od niej cały ten wzniosło-
ponuro-śmieszny teatr niespełnionych marzeń i nieuzasadnionych
urojeń? Polskość to nienormalność – takie skojarzenie nasuwa mi się
z bolesną uporczywością, kiedy tylko dotykam tego niechcianego
tematu. Polskość wywołuje u mnie odruch buntu: historia, geografia,
pech dziejowy i Bóg wie co jeszcze, wrzuciły na moje barki brzemię,
którego nie mam specjalnie ochoty dźwigać... Piękniejsza od Polski
jest ucieczka od Polski – tej ziemi konkretnej, przegranej, brudnej
i biednej. I dlatego tak często nas ogłupia, zaślepia, prowadzi w
krainę mitu. Sama jest mitem."
Źródło: Tygodnik Znak, nr 11–12/1987

so he might hesitate for a while, but eventually will do the "right"
thing and will protest as well... after all, he also said:

"Ja o Polsce myślę i mówię z pasją. Polska musi być pasją każdego z
nas. Kiedy mówimy o Polsce dumnej, musimy mieć w sobie pasję do
walki o Polskę dumną – tak jak mieliście tę pasję do walki
dwadzieścia pięć lat temu w sierpniu. Ta pasja musi wrócić, bo
Polska zasługuje na cuda. Nie chcę i nie dopuszczę do tego, żeby
Polską rządzili ludzie, którzy mówią, że nic nie może się udać,
którzy uważają, że Polacy to naród aferzystów i złodziei. Polacy to
naród dumny i mający prawo do bycia dumnym z własnej ojczyzny."
Opis: z wystąpienia podczas kampanii wyborczej, Warszawa, Hala
Torwaru, 19 czerwca 2005

he appears to be one of those, who in order to satisfy his own
ambitions and desires will do and say whatever the public is likely
to like or appreciate... like his church wedding ceremony some 20
years after the actual event, but just before the parliamentary and
presidential elections in 2005...

2005 must have been a big year for him... the year of the change...
new catholic wedding and new views on poland and "polishness"... he
must have "seen the light"...

cya, big day today coming up.

rooboy

bingo, t1! now that you've grasped

[tomekjeden]

I still have a problem with your narrow definition of who can be Polish. I just
don't understand it. If Mr Tusk is not Polish, and if Mr Jarosław Kaczyński is
not Polish, then Mr Lech Kaczyński, the Polish president is not Polish, and
neither are millions of other inhabitants of the beautiful Polish land.
Piłsudski is out on his moustache as some kind of a freak without roots, Matejko
a Czech upstart with a paint brush, Chopin is a French composer obsessed with
funny melodies from a far country. And what about Mickiewicz? Just a nutter, who
decided to write in the Polish language? And where would you place the author of
"Kwiaty polskie", Tuwim, or one of the best ever prose writers, Bruno Schulz?
One could go on for a long time. I am reminded of the mother of one of my
friends. Born in Poland in the 1920-ies, of German stock, nothing unusual in
that, she refused to sign the Deutsche Volksliste when Poland was occupied by
Hitler, and declared herself Polish. She worked for the resistance, and nearly
paid with her life for that defiance. Is she not Polish? Today in a unified
Europe, where strife and wars are things of the past, where resistance has been
replaced by friendship and reconciliation, we are losing our understanding of
the nature of choices people had to make in the shadow of guns, watchtowers,
flags, and other symbols of oppression and political slavery. A good thing
perhaps. But all that also belongs to the wider context of Mr Tusk's utterance
on being Polish, about which below. (Read Norman Davies and Janusz Tazbir.)

Many thanks for your quotations of Mr Tusk. The first one shows a man with great
insight, who having absorbed all the official stuff about Polish greatness and
Poland’s special role in the world, presents us with a personal reaction to it
all, talking about a drab country drained of aspirations and ambition, lacking
the will to go on and fight for a better future, a country on its knees with no
strength left, a pale shadow of its former glory of centuries ago, ravaged and
terribly demoralised by two world wars and 40 years of Communism. But such was
Poland in the 1980-ies, and that former glorious past was like a bad dream in
the national psyche, with no relevance to the present, a dream about an illusion
which lured the mind towards nothing real and productive. Poland then was a
country reduced from past greatness to greyness and poverty. That first text
tells me that Mr Tusk, and many others who thought along similar lines, lets no
concentrate exclusively on Mr Tusk, are passionate about Poland. They were then,
and are now. Those two texts compliment each other.

You project something of your own, I reckon, when you question Mr Tusk's motives
to have a church wedding. But that is your problem. I'm not in favour of people
putting their hoofs into anybody's private life.

pzdr,

t1

grasped, po korekcie

[tomekjeden]

Hiya Rooboy,

I was in a rush when I wrote this piece, and couldn't find the two texts I am
quoting below. Hence this new version.


I still have a problem with your narrow definition of who can be Polish.I just
don't understand it. If Mr Tusk is not Polish, and if Mr Jarosław Kaczyński is
not Polish, then Mr Lech Kaczyński, the Polish President is not Polish, and
neither are millions of other inhabitants of the beautiful Polish land.
Piłsudski is out on his moustache as some kind of a freak without roots, Matejko
a Czech upstart with a paint brush, Chopin is a French composer obsessed with
funny melodies from a far country. And what about Mickiewicz? Just a nutter, who
decided to write in the Polish language? And where would you place the author of
"Kwiaty polskie", Tuwim, or one of the best ever Polish prose writers, Bruno
Schulz? All those I mentioned here have contributed to a definition of
“polishness”, in the changing times they gave us glimpses of what we are as
Poles. Some politicians and some good artists do that willy-nilly. One could go
on for a long time. I am reminded of the mother of one of my friends. Born in
Poland in the 1920’s, of German stock, nothing unusual in that, she refused to
sign the Deutsche Volksliste when Poland was occupied by Hitler, and declared
herself Polish. Later she worked for the resistance, and nearly paid with her
life for that defiance. Is she not Polish? Today in a unified Europe, where
strife and wars are things of the past, where resistance has been
replaced by friendship and reconciliation, we are losing our understanding of
the nature of choices people had to make in the shadow of guns, watchtowers,
flags, and other symbols of oppression and political slavery. A good thing
perhaps. But all that also belongs to the wider context of Mr Tusk's utterance
on being Polish, about which below. (Read Norman Davies and Janusz Tazbir.) The
concept of nationality when so severely limited, as you propose, to blood and
geography alone, loses its wider sense to do with language, culture and ethical
values. It loses its grounding in what really makes human cohesion into large
groups meaningful and purposeful. After all, many different nations profess to
share the same values and aspirations - and the trick is to say the same things,
and to put into life the same things, using different grammars, behaviours and
traditions - and any attempt at using pre-political, tribal, criteria, as basis
for a common bond, makes it impossible to apply values shared and respected by
all. I am saying this about the new unified Europe. That is the only place I
know a little.

Many thanks for your quotations of Mr Tusk. The first one shows a man with great
insight, who having absorbed all the official stuff about Polish greatness and
Poland’s special role in the world, presents us with a personal reaction to it
all, talking about a drab country drained of aspirations and ambition, lacking
the will to go on and fight for a better future, a country on its knees with no
strength left, a pale shadow of its former glory of centuries ago, ravaged and
terribly demoralised by two world wars and 40 years of Communism. But such was
Poland in the 1980’s, and that former glorious past was like a bad dream in the
national psyche, with no relevance to the present, a dream about an illusion
which lured the mind towards nothing real and productive. Poland then was a
country reduced from past greatness to greyness and poverty. And, of course, one
must remember that by 1987 the first Great Solidarity (Wielka
Solidarność) also belonged to the past. There was a very frustrating
cognitive hiatus when talking about future plans, relating them to the past, in
the shadow of totalitarian regime’s ever present security apparatus. That first
text appeared in 1987 in the Roman Catholic monthly “Znak”. Its motto is,
“Journal for those who are not afraid to think”. That first text tells me
that Mr Tusk, and many others who thought along similar lines, lets not
concentrate exclusively on Mr Tusk, are passionate about Poland. They were then,
and are now. Those two texts compliment each other.

Let me give you two other examples of texts, which might be deemed
“unpatriotic”. The first is by the Russian poet Mikhail Lermontov, the other by
the founder of Czechoslovakia Tomas Masaryk. They were not any less Russian or
Czech for saying those things. Here is Lermontov’s farewell to Russia, on his
exile by the tsarist authorities in 1841. Can you spot any similarities?

Прощай, немытая Россия,
Страна рабов, страна господ,
И вы, мундиры голубые,
И ты, им преданный народ.

Быть может, за стеной Кавказа
Сокроюсь от твоих пашей,
От их всевидящего глаза,
От их всеслышащих ушей.

And here is Masaryk on patriotism:

„Já nemám rád prázdné mluvení o slovanství, jako nemám rád vlastenčení. (…) A
nač to mluvení: normální člověk nevytrubuje do světa, že miluje své rodiče, svou
ženu, své děti; to se rozumí samo sebou. Když miluješ svou vlast, nemusíš o tom
mluvit, ale udělej něco kloudného; o nic jiného nejde. (…) Člověk už je takový,
že rád poslouchá svého srdce; právě proto o lásce nemluví, ale hledá pomoci
rozumem. (…) Nevyvolávám-li o sobě, že jsem vlastenec, nekřičím o tom druhém, že
je zrádce vlasti; musím trpělivě dokazovat, že jeho cesta je z těch a těch
důvodů chybná. Takovými velkými hesly se mohou lidé opíjet, ale nemohou se jimi
naučit pracovat. Osvobodili jsme se od despotických pánů; teď ještě se musíme
osvobodit od velkých a despotických slov. Pravda, lidé se drží slov nejen v
politice, nýbrž ve všech oborech, v náboženství, vědě, filosofii. Proto jsem
vždy kladl důraz na věci, na pozorování a poznání faktů; ale dobře pozorovat a
poznávat – k tomu je třeba lásky.“


You project something of your own, I reckon, when you question Mr Tusk's motives
to have a church marriage. But that is your problem. I'm not in favour of people
putting their hoofs into anybody's private life.


pzdr ciepło

t1

t1, just as i thought that the hard work had been

[rooboy]

done, you come up with this sort of a reply. maybe i have to be much
briefer and put my thoughts in a bullet point form so that my idea
is clearer.

1. it is not a definition, it is my view on the nationality. i don't
think anybody can claim to give a proper and uniformly accepted
definition of what nationality is.

2. my view is simple, but you make it too simple, thus going against
the advice of the great man, einstein. my views are about who is
truly polish, and not who is polish per se. therefore,
kaczynskis and tusk are polish, but not truly polish.

3. "blood and geography" as you called it do not lose "wider sense
to do with language, culture and ethical values", because language,
culture, ethical values and all those other things like the ways of
understanding how the world works, behaviour, national complexes
etc, etc are all a function of your blood and birth location.
one quick example on this to illustrate... if you are truly (as per
my opinion) polish, who is born within historically polish territory
and from polish born and bred parents, there is a 90% chance that
you will be of roman catholic faith, will be baptised, get the first
communion, be confirmed and get the church wedding when marrying. a
lot of the above might (sometimes quite heavily) influence you
culture and ethical values and you will speak polish (and understand
it like no other language on earth) by default. 9 out of 10 people
next to you will do and be same or very similar. if however you are
a pole, but not a true pole, you may decide to wed in church 20
years after the event. btw. i do not make any apologies for
questioning this. he was not genuine in that move and has done it to
get wider community acceptance prior to important electoral events,
as the community is mainly of rc faith. it that disappoints you, so
be it, i'm big enough to wear that.

4. why you often refer me to tazbir and davies to get the
understanding of the notion of nationality??? that is their
understanding and obviously mine is different (refer point 1 above
particularly its last sentence). i note your comment about znak's
motto. not bad, particularly given the times in poland, but i know a
better one. it comes from the private school that my son attended...
the school claims in its motto to "teach how to think and not what
to think"... i try to use it as often as i can... both tazbir and
davies would tell me what to think and not how... i actually
remember seeing davies' book "poland" in late 70's in london's
bookshops and thought about buying it... eventually i opted for
forsyth's "the odessa file" and "the devil's alternative"... same
thickness (two against one) but so much more fun and entertainment...

5. i note your texts by lermontov and masaryk, unfortunately my
russian is so rusty that 10 litres of coke would not get it going
and always struggled to understand czech... nevertheless, i can't
comment on masaryk anyway as i don't know too much about him and do
not have the time for any research. however as far as lermontov
goes, from memory part of his family was of scottish origin, but by
the time of his birth they were as truly russian as they
come... he was therefore making comments as a true russian (as per
my understanding) and that's what make them (his comments that is)
of far greater importance than tusk's (being not truly polish in my
book) about polishness... to put it in other words, if i as a not-
truly australian say that australian is shit, people here will
dismiss it and suggest to me to go back to poland if i don't like it
here. if however a shane warne or a steve waugh or a john howard
made the same comment, people would take notice and ask - why is he
saying this??? i hope you see the difference.

not much of bullet points, but i do hope i made myself clearer now.

take care.

rooboy

[tomekjeden]

Ok Rooboy,

ładnie napisałeś, to ja też Tobie po zachodniemu tymi kulkami punktowymi, trzeba
iść z czasem.

· Z tą narodowością to ciekawie coś wykonbinowałeś. Właśnie natrafiłem na pracę
doktorską o pierwszych Polanach i o czystości krwi. Praca jest świeża i jest na
nią embargo nałożone. To źródła podać nie mogę. Otóż pierwsi Polanie
zorganizowali się w naród już w epoce kamienia łupanego. Koni nawet jeszcze nie
było. Jeździli na takich ogromnych mamutach. Wyglądali jak my. Zwłaszcza faceci.
No wiadomo, facet to facet, i już. Tylko ichnie baby to były straszne. Miały
ogromne dupska, gęby to miały takie krzywe, z oczu im szło spojrzenie takie
zawziónte, i nosiły te potworne baby takie duże berety robione z sierści
albo mamuciej albo wilczej, takie mohery jakby. A jak się w kupę zbiły te baby
polańskie w tych ogromnych beretach, to wyły jak opętane. Rooboy, wilki wyrywały
od nich przez pola w siną dal silnym strachem gnane, jak te baby zaczynały wyć.
A wilki to wtedy były przyjacielem człowieka bo się pies jeszcze z nich nie
rozwinął, to normalnie to sobie biegały po zagrodach na łańcuszkach, albo i
swobodnie. Raz w roku wszyscy Polanie opuszczali swoje wioski i na tych swoich
ogromnych mamutach - tak na trzy, cztery mamuty to prawie cała wiocha mogła
sobie wsiąść - jechali do swojej najważniejszej wiochy, która nazywała się
Toruń. Jechali na imieniny do dyrektora szamana. Dyrektor szaman wtedy to całe w
kamień łupane towarzystwo ochrzaniał, i instruował jak się prowadzić żeby
zachować czystość polańskiej krwi. Jak przeczytam więcej to dopiszę.

· Też lubię thrillery. Tylko skąd wiesz, że Tazbir czy Davies by Tobie coś na
siłę wciskali, skoro przeczytałeś Odesę Forsythe'a, a nie Tazbira czy Daviesa?

· Nie wiem kim są ci dżentelmeni przez Ciebie wyliczeni, ale masz rację, Rooboy.
W tej Australii to tak się nie wychylaj. OK, siedzimy cicho.

pozdr ciepło

t1

very briefly today, t1.. is this sarcasm or irony?

[rooboy]

or both???

take care

rooboy

ps. btw fascynujaca historia z tymi polanami... autor nieznany czy
t1??? czy tez moze tazbir albo davies, bo forsyth'a nie
podejrzewam??? mniejsza o autora zreszta... ci polanie faceci, gdy
zenili sie z tymi wstretnymi babami, to mieli tylko plemienna
ceremonie czy rowniez jakas rytualno/kultowo/bozkowa??? te druga
zawierali w tym samym czasie co pierwsza, czy tez moze pozniej, gdy
nadchodzily wybory "przodownika stada"??? dziwie sie tez troche
lokalizacji dyrektora szamana... z pamieci polanie zajmowali
dorzecze warty, wiec dyrektor szaman byl zmuszony zyc na wygnaniu???
czyzby polanie juz wtedy przejawiali brak tolerancji dla pogladow
rozniacych sie od tych jedynie slusznych czyli ich wlasnych???
that'll be about right.

r.

very briefly today, t1.. is this sarcasm or irony

[tomekjeden]

Oj Rooboy,

co Ty? Ja zdobyłem dostęp do najnowszej pracy doktorskiej, i do Ciebie uczenie i
naukowo, a Ty coś o sarkazmie czy ironii. Praca jest długa i skomplikowana i
jeszcze jej nie skończyłem czytać. Dużo tam jest, rzeczywiście, o
nieumiejętności tego plemienia do prowadzenia spokojnej rozmowy i uznawania
różnicy poglądów jako rzeczy normalnej. Ten Dyrektor Szaman to wcale nie był na
wygnaniu, i był on takim jakby głównym poganinem. Jak przeczytam więcej to napiszę.

pzdr

t1

t1, do they say anything about marriage customs???

[rooboy]

however i start to have serious doubts about the integrity of this
work that has caught your interest. szaman not in exile??? it is
uniformly accepted by other historians that the polans conquered the
parts of poland (including torun) away from their traditional base
around the warta river region around the 8th century a.c....
mamooths had been well and truly gone by then and horse as we know
it today was widely used...

are you sure it is a genuinely scientific work as i have a suspicion
that it might be one of those that was politically motivated (and
sponsored) in support of the only right way of looking at issues of
nationality and the associated stuff??? and to ridicule all other
views as it is so often hapenning in poland today???

wintery day's developing, so i might get some time to do some
research of my own and will report back when or if i find something.

take care and keep warm.

rooboy

i meant mammoths, not mamooths...

[rooboy]

[tomekjeden]

Rooboy, ta praca traktuje o najpierwszych Polanach, tych z epoki kamienia
łupanego. Jakieś najnowsze badania itd.. Cały zespół nad tym pracuje. Okazuje
się, że ci Polanie to nie byli wszyscy tacy sami. Narazie doszedłem do
wyszczególnienia trzech różnych plemion polańskich. Jedno nazywało się Prawi,
inne Sprawiedliwi. Każde z tych dwóch miało po wodzu. Wódz Prawych nazywał się
Mały Kaczor. Wódz Sprawiedliwych też się nazywał Mały Kaczor, ale nie był to ten
sam Mały Kaczor, który stał na czele Prawych. Było też plemię o nazwie
Inteligentni a ich wodzem był Mamuci Kieł. A Inteligentni to już mieli wymyślone
ogień i koło, i Mamuci Kieł chciał te wynalazki Małym Kaczorom przekazać, no
podzielić się tak z dobrej duszy, posłowiańsku. Ale oni nie chcieli tych
wynalazków. Małe Kaczory zabroniły ognia i koła. Rozumiesz tak bez ciepłej wody,
i wszystko na surowo ci od Kaczorów jedli, nie myli się. Śmierdzieli ogromnie i
bardzo chcieli, żeby Inteligentni też śmierdzieli. Toteż co i raz chcieli ich
otoczyć smrodem permanentnym a zwłaszcza Mamuciego Kła. W ogóle rozmowa ze
śmierdziuchami była trudna. A u Inteligentnych to i dziewuszki dużo zgrabniejsze
były niż u śmierdziuchów. To tyle. Bo czytam jeszcze.

as you steadfastly keep ignoring my question

[rooboy]

about marriage customs of the polans, i've tried to do some of my
own research. unfortunately for the research and fortunately for
many other things yesterday proved to be a beautiful spring day
after all, so time was limited and i found it difficult to locate
any useful info. these works about the polans must be "embargoed" as
you suggested previously. so i decided to look into the history of
the polan's neighbours instead to get some clues.

and i have found some interesting stuff related to the germanic
tribes. the research claims that in one region of their empire,
which is now known as the ruhr area they had some gigantic trees.
they were so tall that the polan's mammoth looked like fleas in
comparison. it actually makes a lot of sense to me as ruhr is a coal-
bearing area. apparently the germanics used those trees to record
their marriages by chiseling the names on the branches of these tall
trees. you know the germans - ordnung muss sein, so the germanics
were using their trees efficiently for the recording purposes. they
were starting at the bottom and worked their way up to the very top
before they moved to the next tree in line. given the height it
required some skillful climbers to do the recording of their tribal
ceremony. however they also had a ritual ceremony as well. they
struggled to come up with a solution how to record those and in the
nearby area, where at present cologne is located, they built a
decent mountain as a mark of respect for their gods where they
placed some stone plaques, where ritual marriage ceremonies were
recorded, again by chiseling. you could say the man-made mountain
was like a precursor of the cologne cathedral. however the trees had
been long in existence when they commenced their tribal marriage
recording, while the mountain had to be made. it took them some
twenty years before they completed it sufficiently to place the
first stone plaques and the work was still continuing. by that time
numerous couples, already married in a tribal ceremony were waiting
for their ritual one. the queue was long and ever increasing as new
marriages were occuring faster than the progress of the work on the
mountain and the placement of the new plaques. eventually it became
a custom to have a ritual marriage some 20 years after the tribal
one.


then it dawned on me... knowing that tusk is not truly polish and
assuming that he is polish from german(ic?) ancestors, it all makes
perfect sense, you would call it a no-brainer. the germanics were
skillful climbers to make the marriage recordings on the tall trees,
tusk is (was?) a skillful climber to paint the tall chimneys... as a
custom germanics had their ritual marriage ceremony some 20 years
after the tribal one, so did tusk... my apologies for accusing him
of some evil motives related to electoral calendar.


one thing bothers me though... the germanics, and now the germans
are known as being very hard working people, why then tusk is so
lazy??? possibly that's one of these few polish national traits that
he acquired through his long presence within the polish
environment...


take care

rooboy

[tomekjeden]

Rooboy spokojnie, jeszcze nie dotarłem do tej części pracy, która mówi o
obyczajach i obrządkach małżeńskich. Nie unikam odpowiedzi na Twoje pytanie.

To co cytujesz jest bardzo ciekawe. Tyle, że ta praca jest znana, a została ona
napisana przez historyka z okresu kamienia łupanego, który wywodził się od tych
śmierdziuchów wśród Polanach. Miał ten historyk fiksację na temat bab oraz
kompleks niższości. Stąd wykombinował coś o babach na ogromnie dużych drzewach.
(Te ogromne germańskie drzewa nigdy nie istniały naprawdę.) I nawet zostało się
to w języku polskim; bardzo duże drzewo to: "baobab od czasów
kiedy Inteligentni się śmieli z łupanych w kamień śmierdziuchów, i jak widzieli
duże drzewo to krzyczeli sobie radośnie "Ba! o babach coś będzie!". Zaś tego
historyka śmierdziuchów to spotkał smutny koniec. Nie wiadomo dokładnie czy byli
to Prawi, czy też Sprawiedliwi, ale po naradzie starszyzny zdecydowano tego
historyka z tym kompleksem niższości powiesić za łupanie głupot w kamieniu. Za
chorobliwe podejście do społeczności, oraz za wstecznictwo i stosowanie metod z
epoki stali, taki wyrok wyłupali. I zgadnij, Rooboy, na czym go powiesili? Na
baobabie. Co ciekawe od czasu wykonania wyroku, w zapisach polańskich istnieje
tylko jeden Mały Kaczor. O czym to może świadczyć? Autor pracy poświęcił na to
około 500 stron, w jednym z przypisów do podrozdziału o baobabach. Mam jeszcze
dużo czytania, jak widzisz.

Jeszcze raz dzięki za cytat.

pzdr ciepło,

t1

[tomekjeden]

Rooboy, poczytałem sobie jeszcze trochę. To dołożę trochę wiedzy na temat. Bo w
tygodniu to będę zajęty.

W tym podrozdziale o baobabach autor rzeczywiście zastanawia się czy ten
bezimienny historyk z epoki wczesnych Polan z okresu kamienia łupanego, ten
który wymyślił nie istniejące ogromne drzewa germańskie z zapisem ślubów bab z
Polanami, to nie jeden z dwu Małych Kaczorów. Otóż w sentencji wyroku czytamy,
że spotkała tego historyka kara za „chorobliwe podejście do społeczności, oraz
za wstecznictwo i stosowanie metod z epoki stali”. Czyli mielibyśmy tutaj
krytykę metody badań historycznych, ale sentencja ta pasuje również i do metody
sprawowania władzy. (A wiadomo, że było bardzo dużo śmierdziuchów, którzy nie
chcieli być śmierdziuchami. Tylko bali się oni żądać ognia i koła bo krytyka za
to była sroga. Nie chcecie śmierdzieć to nie jesteście prawdziwymi patriotami,
grzmieli i Mały Kaczor i Dyrektor Szaman.) Również w dniu domniemanej przez
niektórych badaczy egzekucji historyka, a był to ładny dzień wiosenny, zaczęło
padać trochę po południu. No to ludzie weszli do domów przed deszczykiem. A tu
nagle wszędzie zaczęło się wycie bab moherowych, tych tak ulubionych przez
Małego Kaczora. Wycie było takie straszne, na cały kraj Polan, że ludzie wyszli
z domów. Na ten wiosenny deszcz wyszli. I jedna z Inteligentnych, Lipcówna jej
było na imię, powiedziała do siebie, ale ją wszyscy jednak usłyszeli: „O, Małego
Kaczora powiesili na baobabie! Tak mohery wyją!”. Lipcówna była oddalona od
miejsca domniemanej egzekucji o kilkaset kilometrów. No ale co intuicja, to
intuicja. Gdyby nie to, że ludzie tak weszli i wyszli to może i ten komentarz
Lipcówny by nie został zauważony. No a tak to zaczęli ludzie myśleć. Jest taka
jeszcze hipoteza, że Mały Kaczor i ten historyk to ta sama osoba, i że nie
powiesili go na baobabie, tylko przegnali, razem z jego ulubioną klempą i z
ulubionym zerem. Bo o klempie i o zerze też słuch zaginął. Rozumiesz, Rooboy,
czasy odległe to i szczegółów nie ma. W każdym razie od czasu zniknięcia Małego
Kaczora akcje niektórych śmierdziuchów poszły w górę. I to tak, że przestali być
śmierdziuchami.

t1, dziad swoje, baba swoje...

[rooboy]

the above is a brief description of our current post exchange... or
should really be even worse as we not only differ in opinions, but
also write on different subjects without much regard for the post
that we respond to.... total disconnect.

however as you're gonna be busy this week and appears that i'm gonna
be double as busy as you will, we do have a good opportunity to stop
our discussion at this point. it's a good opportunity and let's not
waste it.

so, hopefully i will see you around on the forum talking about new
subjects. however if you find anything on the marital habits of the
germanics/prussians/casubians, that could explain tusk's motives for
his late move, i'd be happay to see it.

take care and see you around.

rooboy

[tomekjeden]

Rooboy, ja założyłem, że będzie cdn. No to coś jeszcze napiszę. Może w weekend.
Nic nie rozumiem, co Bogu ducha winnego Pana Premiera Tuska mieszasz z czasami
Polan z epoki kamienia łupanego. Epoka kamienia łupanego i dzisiejsi ludzie.
Troszkę absurdalne, przyznasz zapewne. No i gatunek psujesz strasznie tą swoją
chybioną łopatologią.

pozdr

t1

[rooboy]

it only became "polish" territory through a post-war administrative
decision by the americans, british and the russians some 12 years
before his birth...

secondly... his ancestors are not polish, they are german
prussian, casubian, take your pick, i don't care, all i need to know
is that german is not polish, prussian is not polish and casubian
isn't either. tusk himself has said some neither nice nor clever (in
hindsight) things about "polishness" that he feels disgusted when he
thinks about "polishness"... you know which words i mean... i don't
feel disgusted when i think about "polishness"
and/or "australianness", i feel proud of both.

i said it before i will say it again... because he was brought up in
the polish environment (i mean schools, uni, after uni acitivities,
not home which was more german, prussian or casubian, take your
pick) he has acquired some polish national traits, that is all what
i've said. he is not a typical pole, typical true blue pole comes
from ancestors who lived somewhere between warta and bug, south of
torun and down to cracow. and when i say ancestors, i mean 3-4
generations back, i know and know of many cracow- and wroclaw-
born "poles" , whose ancestors come from vilnius and lvov
respectively. they are not true blue poles, lots of them behave more
like russians, lithuanians and ukrainians rahter than poles. but
this is a separate subject again and i've run of time for this
morning. the issue of my son's "australianness" is also an
interesting one and it is not as simple as you make it to be, but
will have to wait for its turn, if ever.

i hope i haven't upset you too much with all the above and you will
leave your emotions aside and will look into my arguments
rationally, forgetting for a moment that you are a staunched po
supporter.

don't forget about my advice to tusk, i know it's a good one not
just because it's free and i rarely give any free advice.

final comment - i don't mind if tusk becomes a president, the
current one is not the best one to say the least, but tusk has got
12 months to prove that he's worth the office... he needs to put his
head down and do the hard work and prove to the polish people that
he cares about them and wants to improve their livelihood rather
than keep hibernating in his current role, hoping that all the
others will stumble on their way and he will be the only one
standing when the day comes...


take care and relax, it's only a non-threatening exchange of views
and ideas...


rooboy

[jesss11]

Taaaa... najlepsze, że Jarosław wiedział już ponad tydzień temu o tym, że będzie
cała afera. I teraz powiedz mi... kto wykorzystuje swoich ustawionych ludzi i
kto wykorzystuje dostęp do informacji tajnych nie mając teoretycznie już do nich
dostępu?
Jaro Kaczyński to zgniłe jajo, które popuszcza co jakiś czas odrobinę smrodu...
"żeby wszystkim było źle".

[nie-tak]

jesss11 napisał:

> Taaaa... najlepsze, że Jarosław wiedział już ponad tydzień temu o tym, że będzi
> e
> cała afera. I teraz powiedz mi... kto wykorzystuje swoich ustawionych ludzi i
> kto wykorzystuje dostęp do informacji tajnych nie mając teoretycznie już do nic
> h
> dostępu?
> Jaro Kaczyński to zgniłe jajo, które popuszcza co jakiś czas odrobinę smrodu...
> "żeby wszystkim było źle".
************
przecież ten ignorant nie widzi ze nie tylko sobie szkodzi, szkodzi tez swojej
partii (dziwie się ze jeszcze ma jakichś zwolenników i członków, sadze ze
równych siebie), szkodzi tez imieniu prezydenta Polski (bo przecież jest to jego
brat i członek PiS) ale przede wszystkim szkodzi Polsce jak i samym Polakom.
Opinia idzie w świat, zaufanie dla Polski maleje.

--------------------------------------------------------

[jesss11]

No... prezydent niby zawiesił swoje uczestnictwo w PiS.
A to, że świat widzi Polskę jako jakieś dziwne państwo... to przecież "in plus"
dla Kaczyńskich... bo wszelkie ich działania (gó...e Jarosława) są skierowanie
na odcięcie Polski od tzw. "Zachodu".

tak jak nie wierze J. Kaczyńskiemu, tak Tusk

[tetradrachma]

budzi moje zaufanie. Każdy polityk (dużego formatu) jest graczem.
Myślę, że przy Tusku prezes PiS-u to...cienki Bolek. Tusk, jeśli jest
prawdziwym pokerzystą - zostawi Kamińskiego w spokoju. Chciałbym tego. Chciałbym ponadto, dla dobra mego kraju aby J. Kaczyński, był wiecznym
szefem opozycji.

Jarkacz na pewno nie będzie wiecznym opozycjonistą

[ajatollah_rydzyk]

To niemożliwe - ludzie tak długo nie żyją ;) A Jarek ostatnio mocno się postarzał, w końcu to "pan po 60-tce", a więc DZIADZIUŚ JARUŚ :)))

[yanfhowah]

kaczynski wszedl na wyzszy poziom "opozycji" teraz jest w
opozycji z SAMYM SOBA,,,,i nikt go nie przekona ze czarne jest
czarne a biale,,,,,,;-))

PIS wracajjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj

[user_delete]

Kaczyński wróććććććććććć!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rbj]

ale chyba do podstawówki - tam kształtują ludzi od podstaw...

Nacjonaliści Kaczyńskiego w natarciu.

[wrojoz]

Prosze o nowe partie.Poproscie wojsko o pomoc.

[marek.lipski]

Od 20 lat niewolnicze pensje w Polsce.
Medycyna i leki dla dzieci platne.
Przemysl zbrojeniowy na lopatkach.
Wojsku brakuje pieniedzy.
Politycy zdradzaja tajemnice panstwowe.
Wirus tej sytuacji moze sie przeniesc do EU
a to bedzie oznaczac walki uliczne.
Do tego nie mozna dopuscic!!!!!

Prezydentura Ryżawego poszła

[user_delete]

w PIS-du

[rbj]

twoje prostactwo jest porażające pajacu

Dlaczego Chlebowski jest jeszcze w PO ??

[adam_l27]

Przecież ten człowiek manipulował kolegami ze swojej partii !!
Czy oni się na to godzą ?? Czy uważają że był wobec nich fair ??

Dlaczego nie potrafią go wykluczyć z własnego środowiska ??

Do przodu KTOŚ NOWY .... ale kto ?

[herrdocent]

jest szansa żeby coś się na scenie politycznej wyłoniło nowego ale co
?
Znów będzie głosowanie przeciw, a robi się coraz bardziej wąsko.
Kibel i tyle Ja nie mam na kogo głosować czekam na ofertę ot co

Jarosław Kaczyński: To sprawa pana Tuska

[mariuszet]

Ten facet jest niebezpieczny dla Państwa. Powinien iść pod sąd razem z
Kamińskim. Tusk nie powinien kierować się tym jak to może wyglądać w oczach
zidiociałych mediów i powinien usunąć Kamińskiego bo to jest kret w służbach
specjalnych.

Kaczyński,Tusk zakladaja koalicje dla Polski.1.12

[marek.lipski]

Czy tez nie zalezy im na Polsce i odrzuca wspolprace?
Przestancie sie klocic i dzialajcie dla Polski
a nie przeciw.Mozliwosci istnieja.
Chyba ze boicie sie w dalszym ciagu partnera w Moskwie.
Rurociag przyjaz pozostanie.