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Russians are totally brainwashed!!

15.08.05, 07:40
Popach, Reading what you wrote it amaises me how Russian's believe in
their "Special leading Role"....I think you been brainwashed by Russian
communist/nationalist ideology.
The difference between USA and Russia is that USA has a positive influence on
its allies. Just think what happened to Germany, Japan countries after those
countries allied itself closely with USA- they got prosperous and democratic.

You want Poland and the rest of the World to "ally" and follow Russia? Why in
the World any country would want to do that. You only have to look how
Poland,Ukraine, Baltics became poor and underdeveloped, when those countries
were invaded and occupied by Russia after 1945. Putin reminds me of Hitler;
who
actually believed that rest of the World dreams of being Germanized. Russia
is
the Totalitarian "poster-boy" of the World.

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    • joh2008 Re: Russians are totally brainwashed!! 15.08.05, 09:48
      >>>Just think what happened to Germany, Japan countries after those
      countries allied itself closely with USA- they got prosperous and democratic.
      Ti zabul o Tusrcia (to es cxlen NATOf) - ot dobrju zxizn turcnikis emigrijut v
      Germania, o Irak (USA dolguo podporil Hussein podcxas Iran-Iraq voina), tper
      Uzbekistanuf guverstvo molvit USA-ju vojakis "yankee, go home in 6 months"... i
      tper oni delat "go home". Waldek, verij mne, Rosianicis ne imaijut "specialju
      rola", to es mozg-cxistenie vasx propaganduf, mi tolk hce zxiznit bez stoianju
      napadis om sosedis. Vspomnij na primer ktof nacxil posledju slucx gorsxenie
      otnoseniefs mezx Polakia i Rosia...
      • waldek1610 Re: Russians are totally brainwashed!! 15.08.05, 10:04
        Turkey is quite prosperous and democratic by Islamic standards, Greece is the
        member of NATO as well and they also have a large imigration group in the US.
        But both countries are southern and southern countries are slower in
        develepment.
        Poland had too many enemies at the same time because we were leaders in
        democracy since 1600, Remember that polish kings were elected not the
        dynastic.That's why Imperial Russia wanted to distroy Poland tottaly, Russia
        was always un-democratic and Russian people had no rights at all.
        I think its Russian minority living in Uzbekistans that say ;"Yankee, go home"
        Uzbekistan is not Russia's satelite. Maybe Russians instead of thinking about
        Empire focus on its economy. Did you know that Russia' GPD- annual budget is
        about 5% of what USA produces.
        • joh2008 Re: Russians are totally brainwashed!! 15.08.05, 11:12
          > Turkey is quite prosperous and democratic by Islamic standards,
          To es tvoi omnenie es butie neskolk variantis om demokratia - islamju, usa-ju,
          polakju, rosju, cxinaju demokratia etc. Kak razlicxit onif?
          > Greece is the member of NATO as well and they also have a large imigration
          group in the US. But both countries are southern and southern countries are
          slower in develepment.
          Li realuo? Sxto ti mislit o Australia? To tozx es medluo-razvitju krain? Li
          Taiwan? Li mozxijt Jugju Korea? Ti znat o takai jugju krainis India i Cxina?
          > Poland had too many enemies at the same time because we were leaders in
          > democracy since 1600...
          LOL!!!! Molvij to libgde v forum vasx demokratju drugis, v USA-ju forumis na
          primer... Ja hce dimit odnakju narkivo takak ti. Gde kupil i skolk cenit? :)
          • waldek1610 Re: Russians are totally brainwashed!! 15.08.05, 12:01
            I know Russia call's itself democracy, but I doubt it is democracy it reminds
            me more of the African and Latin American countries that are led by a dictator.
            Russia's bussiness is still under Kremlin's control. Take the former Lukos CEO-
            he's in prison now, just because he wanted to run for the office of Russian
            president. They say that in Russia "law" works this way. Don't matter if
            someone is guilty or not, Russian courts that are controled by Putin, will make
            up a "law, or regulation" it itneeds to put their enemies in prison.
            • joh2008 Re: Russians are totally brainwashed!! 15.08.05, 12:43
              >>I know Russia call's itself democracy, but I doubt it is democracy it reminds
              me more of the African and Latin American countries that are led by a dictator
              Ok. Li Polakia imat demokratia?
              > Russia's bussiness is still under Kremlin's control.
              Polakju business ne es pod guverju kontrol? LOL!!! Esli ti imat svoi business,
              probij ne platit nalogis - ti tutcxasuo bu znat kto to kontrolit. Faktuo to es
              dva variantis - ili business kontrolit guverstvo (to es corruption) ili guverie
              kontrolit business. Kak to es vo Polakia? Ti gvorit sxto guverju kontrol es
              zlouo, li vo Polakia es "doubruo" - corruption? ;)
              > he's in prison now, just because he wanted to run for the office of Russian
              > president. They say that in Russia "law" works this way. Don't matter if
              > someone is guilty or not, Russian courts that are controled by Putin, will
              make
              Ja mislit tak - esli ti hce but prezident naimensx ti dolzx delat - platit
              nalogis.
              • waldek1610 Is Putin ever going to give up presidency? 16.08.05, 00:49
                I don't beleive Michail Chodorkowsky did not paid taxes..
                Governement should be controled by Bussines, that's why they call it Free
                Market Economy or Capitalism.

                How can you be certain Chodorkowsky defrauded money and avoided paying taxes?
                Ok, let's say he paid all taxes and conducted his bussines honestly. Do you
                still believe Putin would let him win Russian Presidency???
                For how long is Putin planning to rule Russia? Untill he dies?
                • kontrkultura Putin and Khodorkovsky 16.08.05, 10:44
                  He will, but he will try to stay close to power, maybe prime minister and (as
                  priority) to put another president from his clan.

                  Even in western Europe press admited that Michail Khodorkovsky earn money in
                  not fair bussines with Elcyn`s help. About taxes we do not know true (or better
                  say - we do not know anything) but all Russians know this first suject and then
                  accept Putins decision. However there is another problem as Putin punish only
                  those oligarhs which are against him...
                • kontrkultura P.S. about bussines 16.08.05, 10:54
                  > ...
                  > Governement should be controled by Bussines, that's why they call it Free
                  > Market Economy or Capitalism.
                  ======
                  And then we have Orlengate, Rywin`s process, or such events like we had in
                  Russia in first part of 90... Its hard to say that it was Free Economy market,
                  rather anarchy.

                  Goverment must controll business but this controll must be transparent and
                  country democratic. That what Free Ekonomy Market is.
                • joh2008 Re: Is Putin ever going to give up presidency? 16.08.05, 11:14
                  > I don't beleive Michail Chodorkowsky did not paid taxes..
                  Ti mozx verit mozx ne verit no Hodorkovsky es vinnik za ne viplatba nalogis.
                  Podobuo Al Kapone. :)
                  > Governement should be controled by Bussines, that's why they call it Free
                  > Market Economy or Capitalism.
                  Esli tak, tagda o sxto za demokratia ti gvorit? Bussines kontrolit guverstvo,
                  guverstvo kontrolit ludis. Gde es ta demokratia - v Gresio to slov znacxit
                  "vladstvo om ludis". Gde to vladstvo, kak v tvoy opisanie "Polakju demokratia"
                  nizju uroven kontrolit gorju uroven - tot es kak Ludis kontrolit Bussines i
                  usled Guverstvo? I ot sxto "svobodju rinokju ekonomia" es svobodju? V tvoi
                  opisanie to es svobodju ot ludis...
                  >> Do you still believe Putin would let him win Russian Presidency???
                  Pervju, ja nigda ne upotrebit "verij, verijsx" takai argument v besed ne es
                  dobrju. Dvaju, li ti znat sxto Putin rating kak prezident es priblizuo 60%, no
                  Hodorkovskij rating es priblizuo 3-5%. Ktor iz onif bu prezident esli Putin
                  resxit vnov but prezident? :)
                  > For how long is Putin planning to rule Russia? Untill he dies?
                  To es vopros ko Putin. :) Esli do jegoi smert, pocx to te tak trevogit? Ja
                  mislit to dolzx bolsx trevogit Rosianicis... :)
            • mishuk Re: Russians are totally brainwashed!! 16.08.05, 02:21
              >I know Russia call's itself democracy, but I doubt it is democracy it reminds
              > me more of the African and Latin American countries that are led by a
              dictator.
              Russia is a form of autoritarian state close to Latin American regimes. I agree.

              >Russia's bussiness is still under Kremlin's control. Take the former Lukos CEO-
              > he's in prison now, just because he wanted to run for the office of Russian
              > president. They say that in Russia "law" works this way. Don't matter if
              > someone is guilty or not, Russian courts that are controled by Putin, will
              >make up a "law, or regulation" it needs to put their enemies in prison.

              Well, it's true that Khodorkovsky's problems started when he set out anti-
              Putin's propaganda in the US and Russia.
              You know, I don't feel sorry for Khodorkovsky, nor for Russian "democracy"
              because all oligarchs are former (or actual) thieves.
        • kontrkultura only Russians? :D 16.08.05, 10:28
          waldek1610 napisał:

          > ...
          > Poland had too many enemies at the same time because we were leaders in
          > democracy since 1600,
          ======
          Hmmm... Dont those kings elected by polish nobility pretended for beeing
          Sweden, or Russian kings and their teritory? ;)

          > Remember that polish kings were elected not the dynastic. That's why Imperial
          > Russia wanted to distroy Poland tottaly, Russia was always un-democratic and
          > Russian people had no rights at all.
          > ...
          ======
          Did they had them in Poland? Yes, but only under Russian border!
          (after "Styczniowe powstanie" [insurection] was puted down)
          Before that only polish nobility were Polish citizens with their so many
          rights. However its important to notice that in 3 May constitution such rights
          wwere provided for all Poles, and other nations, but then it was too late for
          anything.
      • mishuk Re: Russians are totally brainwashed!! 16.08.05, 02:10
        > Just think what happened to Germany, Japan countries after those
        > countries allied itself closely with USA- they got prosperous and democratic.
        They didn't "ally" themselves with the USA, they were totally defeated in war.
        And Americans enforced their democracy upon them. These both examples are good,
        surely. But there are bad examples of American military intervention.
        Nikaragua, Vietnam, Phillipines.
        Americans just follow their own interests. Democracy they establish is only
        a "by-product".
      • lortea Re: is popach all Russians? 15.08.05, 18:00
        Most russiands think the same way, as popach. but most dangerous is that
        russians governement, president, political and economy elits, have the same
        looking at Poland, USA. Sorry for my english.
        • waldek1610 Re: is popach all Russians? 16.08.05, 00:53
          Exactly, I agree with you totally. I hear the same "bias" from Russians who
          think their country is the center of the World.
          A lot of Russians don't realise that despite its size(twice bigger than the
          USA) Russia's anuall GDP equals only 5% of what US makes. Isn't economy best
          indicator how given country is doing?
          • mishuk Re: is popach all Russians? 16.08.05, 02:44
            Well, guys. I think you are stuck in the past. Don't you read newspapers? Or
            read some bullshit?
            I can add that Russian GDP is 2 times lower than Polish one.
            >Isn't economy best indicator how given country is doing?
            No. Best indicator is GDP growth that was 6% last year.
            • joh2008 Re: is popach all Russians? 16.08.05, 12:00
              >>>I can add that Russian GDP is 2 times lower than Polish one.
              What do you smoke, mate? I also want that stuff. How much does it cost? :)
              Ok, lets be serious. Look to The World FactBook by CIA - www.cia.gov
              Poland GDP: purchasing power parity - $463 billion (2004 est.)
              Russian GDP: purchasing power parity - $1.408 trillion (2004 est.)
              Where did you find your "Russian GDP is 2 times lower"???? The Polish GDP is
              lower in 3 times.

              Ok. Let's compare GDP per capita:
              Russian GDP - per capita:purchasing power parity - $9,800 (2004 est.)
              Poland GDP - per capita:purchasing power parity - $12,000 (2004 est.)
              Yeah... Poland wins. The average Polish people are living better than average
              Russians for 22%.
              And what about GDP growth rate? Russia wins this round: 6.7% vs 5.6%...
              • mishuk Re: is popach all Russians? 17.08.05, 09:54
                > What do you smoke, mate? I also want that stuff. How much does it cost? :)
                I don't smoke. I am sportsman ;)

                > Ok, lets be serious. Look to The World FactBook by CIA - www.cia.gov
                > Poland GDP: purchasing power parity - $463 billion (2004 est.)
                > Russian GDP: purchasing power parity - $1.408 trillion (2004 est.)
                > Where did you find your "Russian GDP is 2 times lower"???? The Polish GDP is
                > lower in 3 times.

                I think I messed up with figures. I have read Polish newspaper in Russian
                translation. It was mentioned there about Russian and Polish GDP. Perhaps, it
                was a provocation on part of Russian translator ;)

                > Ok. Let's compare GDP per capita:
                > Russian GDP - per capita:purchasing power parity - $9,800 (2004 est.)
                > Poland GDP - per capita:purchasing power parity - $12,000 (2004 est.)
                > Yeah... Poland wins. The average Polish people are living better than average
                > Russians for 22%.
                > And what about GDP growth rate? Russia wins this round: 6.7% vs 5.6%...
                Oops.
            • waldek1610 Re: is popach all Russians? 17.08.05, 01:55
              If you fall so low and Russia's economy is not producing what it should its
              very easy to have 6% growth. So what? Irland had 7% and Poland about 5%.
              How do you explain to me that Russia which is about 50 times bigger
              teritorialy, and its population is 4 times bigger than Poland's is only
              producing GDP less than twice bigger of relatively small country such as Poland.
              • joh2008 Re: is popach all Russians? 17.08.05, 06:14
                >How do you explain to me that Russia which is about 50 times bigger
                > teritorialy, and its population is 4 times bigger than Poland's is only
                > producing GDP less than twice bigger of relatively small country such as Poland
                Ja mozx obiasnit. Vo Rosia raztrat za produktenie es veljusx cxem vo Polakia.
                Skolk cenit vo Polakia raztrat za teplenie? Ti zabuvat sxto vo Rosia zima es
                sxes-siem mesiacis i temperatur v 70% territoriaf dosagit do -30C i mensx.
                • waldek1610 Russo-Polish partnership 18.08.05, 11:34
                  joh2008 napisał:

                  > >How do you explain to me that Russia which is about 50 times bigger
                  > > teritorialy, and its population is 4 times bigger than Poland's is only
                  > > producing GDP less than twice bigger of relatively small country such as
                  > Poland
                  > Ja mozx obiasnit. Vo Rosia raztrat za produktenie es veljusx cxem vo Polakia.
                  > Skolk cenit vo Polakia raztrat za teplenie? Ti zabuvat sxto vo Rosia zima es
                  > sxes-siem mesiacis i temperatur v 70% territoriaf dosagit do -30C i mensx.

                  That's why Russia is so mad at Poland for pulling Ukraine (fertile farms) away
                  from Russia.
                  I don't believe that Russia exports everything it produces to Poland...It used
                  to be that between years 1945-89 Poland had to send Soviet Russia coal and
                  in "return" Poland had also send Russia potatoes....sounds funny but it was
                  true. That was the idea between Russian -Polish "partnership".
              • mishuk Re: is popach all Russians? 17.08.05, 09:49
                > If you fall so low and Russia's economy is not producing what it should its
                > very easy to have 6% growth. So what? Irland had 7% and Poland about 5%.
                > How do you explain to me that Russia which is about 50 times bigger
                > teritorialy, and its population is 4 times bigger than Poland's is only
                > producing GDP less than twice bigger of relatively small country such as
                Poland
                > .
                I can explain the fact by that Poland started its way to democracy and free
                market a while earlier than Russia. Also small countries are more mobile in the
                law-making, decision-making etc.
                • kontrkultura Re: is popach all Russians? 17.08.05, 19:01
                  Yes Russia started changes bit later but it`s not the main problem in
                  difference that we all can see. Problem is in transparency which did not exist
                  during process of those changes in Russia and allowed to get it out of the
                  controll and corruption on large scale.

                  Can modern Russia be proud of (above) the same scale growth GPD when in Russia
                  it`s mostly depend of oil price?
                  • mishuk Re: is popach all Russians? 18.08.05, 04:56
                    > Yes Russia started changes bit later but it`s not the main problem in
                    > difference that we all can see. Problem is in transparency which did not
                    exist
                    > during process of those changes in Russia and allowed to get it out of the
                    > controll and corruption on large scale.

                    Well, some transparency exists. This is an objective of mass-media (if laws and
                    judges don't work). Believe you me, in spite of government control the freedom
                    of speech still exists here!!!

                    >
                    > Can modern Russia be proud of (above) the same scale growth GPD when in
                    Russia
                    > it`s mostly depend of oil price?
                    Sure, she can't. And this war in Iraq is helping Russian bureocrats to get more
                    lardy and more passive as the country is pumping in with petro bucks.
                    • kontrkultura Re: is popach all Russians? 18.08.05, 08:50
                      mishuk napisał:

                      > Well, some transparency exists. This is an objective of mass-media (if laws
                      > and judges don't work). Believe you me, in spite of government control the
                      > freedom of speech still exists here!!!
                      ======
                      But althrow all newspapers and TV stations belog to government or people from
                      Putins team.

                      > Sure, she can't. And this war in Iraq is helping Russian bureocrats to get
                      > more lardy and more passive as the country is pumping in with petro bucks.
                • waldek1610 Russia's desintegration is imminent, 18.08.05, 11:40
                  mishuk napisał:

                  > > If you fall so low and Russia's economy is not producing what it should i
                  > ts
                  > > very easy to have 6% growth. So what? Irland had 7% and Poland about 5%.
                  > > How do you explain to me that Russia which is about 50 times bigger
                  > > teritorialy, and its population is 4 times bigger than Poland's is only
                  > > producing GDP less than twice bigger of relatively small country such as
                  > Poland
                  > > .
                  > I can explain the fact by that Poland started its way to democracy and free
                  > market a while earlier than Russia. Also small countries are more mobile in
                  the
                  >
                  > law-making, decision-making etc.

                  I agree with what you just wrote; "Small countries are more mobile in the law-
                  making..." exactly. Russia shoul brake up into at least 20 mid size countries,
                  then it would be doing much better economicaly and in democratic changes. I
                  believe Russia's brake up going to happen sooner or later.
      • mishuk Re: is popach all Russians? 16.08.05, 02:29
        If you want to understand Russia, just imagine huge country half-stuck between
        totalitarism and democracy, with huge border-line with China and Islamic
        countries which population boosts up, while Russian one is going down. I am
        sure collapse of Russia would be a catasrophe more serious than collapse of the
        USSR. And you can guess why yourselves.
        • kontrkultura why? 16.08.05, 10:34
          1.Why do You think that collapsion of USSR was catostrophy?
          2.Why do You think that democracy means to be weak? I dont think so.
          • mishuk Re: why? 17.08.05, 10:04
            1. Collapse of the USSR was catastrophy of economy first of all.
            If I were Gorbachev I wouldn't give so much freedom without giving bread!
            2. Democracy is strong if the state (and government) is strong enough.If the
            state is weak, democracy is weak too.
            The building of state and democracy are parallel processes, I guess.
            Putin started with quite liberal reforms, now he is enforcing the state.
            But I don't like the idea of abolishment of governors' election. Uh-huh.
            • kontrkultura Re: why? 17.08.05, 19:39
              > ...
              > 2. Democracy is strong if the state (and government) is strong enough.If the
              > state is weak, democracy is weak too.
              > The building of state and democracy are parallel processes, I guess.
              > Putin started with quite liberal reforms, now he is enforcing the state.
              > But I don't like the idea of abolishment of governors' election. Uh-huh.
              ======
              All democracies that became dictatorship were on the same way like Russia now.
              Most comparable to Putin`s demokracy was August`s speaking about it. By the way
              both of them used same trick (with spektaculary "leaving") to convince `demo`s
              that they want him to stay.

              It`s not enouth to have strong state, government, and elections to have strong
              democracy. It is necessary to have strong law, transparency and goverment
              control mechanism. When Putin with his team rules whole country how can we
              speak about srong democracy???
              • mishuk Re: why? 18.08.05, 04:42
                > All democracies that became dictatorship were on the same way like Russia
                now.

                Personally, I don't believe in dictatorship in Russia in the future. Russians
                will loose much more if the true dictatorship starts. The "orange revolution"
                spirit definitely takes place here. It's not too distinct, but not too weak as
                well.

                > It`s not enouth to have strong state, government, and elections to have
                strong
                > democracy. It is necessary to have strong law, transparency and goverment
                > control mechanism. When Putin with his team rules whole country how can we
                > speak about srong democracy???

                I agree. When speaking about strong state, I didn't mean to be right-wing, I
                just wanted to say that law-makers, judges (which are the state officials)
                should be strong and independent. As for the public control mechanism, Putin
                once proposed to establish Public Chamber with consultive functions (with
                majority of government and Duma representatives... yucky). But still its better
                than nothing.
                In America they have a huge number of non-government public organizations that
                keep their democracy afloat. I guess we must go the same way.
                • kontrkultura Re: why? 18.08.05, 08:35
                  mishuk napisał:

                  > ...
                  > I agree. When speaking about strong state, I didn't mean to be right-wing, I
                  > just wanted to say that law-makers, judges (which are the state officials)
                  > should be strong and independent.
                  ======
                  Now they are not :/

                  > As for the public control mechanism, Putin once proposed to establish Public
                  > Chamber with consultive functions (with majority of government and Duma
                  > representatives... yucky). But still its better than nothing.
                  ======
                  Again Putin wanted to control himself :D
                  Is it better than nothing? I don`t know if such new institutionr can be used by
                  it`s creator for reaching goals in politacal battles.

                  > In America they have a huge number of non-government public organizations
                  > that keep their democracy afloat. I guess we must go the same way.
                  =====
                  Exactly!
                • zwierz.alpuhary Re: why? 19.08.05, 11:24
                  > In America they have a huge number of non-government public organizations that
                  > keep their democracy afloat.

                  I'm afraid that Vladimir Putin, who doesn't seem to be an enthusiast of
                  democracy, also knows about it and that's why the NGO's in Russia are now so
                  badly persecuted; they have a bad luck to receive funds from the West

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