Russians are totally brainwashed!!

[waldek1610]

Popach, Reading what you wrote it amaises me how Russian's believe in
their "Special leading Role"....I think you been brainwashed by Russian
communist/nationalist ideology.
The difference between USA and Russia is that USA has a positive influence on
its allies. Just think what happened to Germany, Japan countries after those
countries allied itself closely with USA- they got prosperous and democratic.

You want Poland and the rest of the World to "ally" and follow Russia? Why in
the World any country would want to do that. You only have to look how
Poland,Ukraine, Baltics became poor and underdeveloped, when those countries
were invaded and occupied by Russia after 1945. Putin reminds me of Hitler;
who
actually believed that rest of the World dreams of being Germanized. Russia
is
the Totalitarian "poster-boy" of the World.

forum.gazeta.pl/forum/72,2.html?f=16589&w=27725567

[mishuk]

Well, I am Russian. I live in Russia.
Can you prove that I am brainwashed?
Go ahead?

[waldek1610]

Mishuk I don't know your opinion on the subject. But Popych's post was totally
characteristic of how Russian's see themselves.

[kontrkultura]

Maybe he should he prove that he is not a camel? :)))

[joh2008]

>>>Just think what happened to Germany, Japan countries after those
countries allied itself closely with USA- they got prosperous and democratic.
Ti zabul o Tusrcia (to es cxlen NATOf) - ot dobrju zxizn turcnikis emigrijut v
Germania, o Irak (USA dolguo podporil Hussein podcxas Iran-Iraq voina), tper
Uzbekistanuf guverstvo molvit USA-ju vojakis "yankee, go home in 6 months"... i
tper oni delat "go home". Waldek, verij mne, Rosianicis ne imaijut "specialju
rola", to es mozg-cxistenie vasx propaganduf, mi tolk hce zxiznit bez stoianju
napadis om sosedis. Vspomnij na primer ktof nacxil posledju slucx gorsxenie
otnoseniefs mezx Polakia i Rosia...

[waldek1610]

Turkey is quite prosperous and democratic by Islamic standards, Greece is the
member of NATO as well and they also have a large imigration group in the US.
But both countries are southern and southern countries are slower in
develepment.
Poland had too many enemies at the same time because we were leaders in
democracy since 1600, Remember that polish kings were elected not the
dynastic.That's why Imperial Russia wanted to distroy Poland tottaly, Russia
was always un-democratic and Russian people had no rights at all.
I think its Russian minority living in Uzbekistans that say ;"Yankee, go home"
Uzbekistan is not Russia's satelite. Maybe Russians instead of thinking about
Empire focus on its economy. Did you know that Russia' GPD- annual budget is
about 5% of what USA produces.

[joh2008]

> Turkey is quite prosperous and democratic by Islamic standards,
To es tvoi omnenie es butie neskolk variantis om demokratia - islamju, usa-ju,
polakju, rosju, cxinaju demokratia etc. Kak razlicxit onif?
> Greece is the member of NATO as well and they also have a large imigration
group in the US. But both countries are southern and southern countries are
slower in develepment.
Li realuo? Sxto ti mislit o Australia? To tozx es medluo-razvitju krain? Li
Taiwan? Li mozxijt Jugju Korea? Ti znat o takai jugju krainis India i Cxina?
> Poland had too many enemies at the same time because we were leaders in
> democracy since 1600...
LOL!!!! Molvij to libgde v forum vasx demokratju drugis, v USA-ju forumis na
primer... Ja hce dimit odnakju narkivo takak ti. Gde kupil i skolk cenit? :)

[waldek1610]

I know Russia call's itself democracy, but I doubt it is democracy it reminds
me more of the African and Latin American countries that are led by a dictator.
Russia's bussiness is still under Kremlin's control. Take the former Lukos CEO-
he's in prison now, just because he wanted to run for the office of Russian
president. They say that in Russia "law" works this way. Don't matter if
someone is guilty or not, Russian courts that are controled by Putin, will make
up a "law, or regulation" it itneeds to put their enemies in prison.

[joh2008]

>>I know Russia call's itself democracy, but I doubt it is democracy it reminds
me more of the African and Latin American countries that are led by a dictator
Ok. Li Polakia imat demokratia?
> Russia's bussiness is still under Kremlin's control.
Polakju business ne es pod guverju kontrol? LOL!!! Esli ti imat svoi business,
probij ne platit nalogis - ti tutcxasuo bu znat kto to kontrolit. Faktuo to es
dva variantis - ili business kontrolit guverstvo (to es corruption) ili guverie
kontrolit business. Kak to es vo Polakia? Ti gvorit sxto guverju kontrol es
zlouo, li vo Polakia es "doubruo" - corruption? ;)
> he's in prison now, just because he wanted to run for the office of Russian
> president. They say that in Russia "law" works this way. Don't matter if
> someone is guilty or not, Russian courts that are controled by Putin, will
make
Ja mislit tak - esli ti hce but prezident naimensx ti dolzx delat - platit
nalogis.

Is Putin ever going to give up presidency?

[waldek1610]

I don't beleive Michail Chodorkowsky did not paid taxes..
Governement should be controled by Bussines, that's why they call it Free
Market Economy or Capitalism.

How can you be certain Chodorkowsky defrauded money and avoided paying taxes?
Ok, let's say he paid all taxes and conducted his bussines honestly. Do you
still believe Putin would let him win Russian Presidency???
For how long is Putin planning to rule Russia? Untill he dies?

Putin and Khodorkovsky

[kontrkultura]

He will, but he will try to stay close to power, maybe prime minister and (as
priority) to put another president from his clan.

Even in western Europe press admited that Michail Khodorkovsky earn money in
not fair bussines with Elcyn`s help. About taxes we do not know true (or better
say - we do not know anything) but all Russians know this first suject and then
accept Putins decision. However there is another problem as Putin punish only
those oligarhs which are against him...

P.S. about bussines

[kontrkultura]

> ...
> Governement should be controled by Bussines, that's why they call it Free
> Market Economy or Capitalism.
======
And then we have Orlengate, Rywin`s process, or such events like we had in
Russia in first part of 90... Its hard to say that it was Free Economy market,
rather anarchy.

Goverment must controll business but this controll must be transparent and
country democratic. That what Free Ekonomy Market is.

[joh2008]

> I don't beleive Michail Chodorkowsky did not paid taxes..
Ti mozx verit mozx ne verit no Hodorkovsky es vinnik za ne viplatba nalogis.
Podobuo Al Kapone. :)
> Governement should be controled by Bussines, that's why they call it Free
> Market Economy or Capitalism.
Esli tak, tagda o sxto za demokratia ti gvorit? Bussines kontrolit guverstvo,
guverstvo kontrolit ludis. Gde es ta demokratia - v Gresio to slov znacxit
"vladstvo om ludis". Gde to vladstvo, kak v tvoy opisanie "Polakju demokratia"
nizju uroven kontrolit gorju uroven - tot es kak Ludis kontrolit Bussines i
usled Guverstvo? I ot sxto "svobodju rinokju ekonomia" es svobodju? V tvoi
opisanie to es svobodju ot ludis...
>> Do you still believe Putin would let him win Russian Presidency???
Pervju, ja nigda ne upotrebit "verij, verijsx" takai argument v besed ne es
dobrju. Dvaju, li ti znat sxto Putin rating kak prezident es priblizuo 60%, no
Hodorkovskij rating es priblizuo 3-5%. Ktor iz onif bu prezident esli Putin
resxit vnov but prezident? :)
> For how long is Putin planning to rule Russia? Untill he dies?
To es vopros ko Putin. :) Esli do jegoi smert, pocx to te tak trevogit? Ja
mislit to dolzx bolsx trevogit Rosianicis... :)

[mishuk]

Vozmozhno dlya Rossii luchshim presidentom byl by ne professional'ny politik, i
ne byvshiy KGBist, a oligarch (super bogaty, i,sledovatel'no, ne ochen'
zhadniy). Po krainei mere, on mog by rukovodit' stranoi- kak korporatsiyei!!!

[mishuk]

>I know Russia call's itself democracy, but I doubt it is democracy it reminds
> me more of the African and Latin American countries that are led by a
dictator.
Russia is a form of autoritarian state close to Latin American regimes. I agree.

>Russia's bussiness is still under Kremlin's control. Take the former Lukos CEO-
> he's in prison now, just because he wanted to run for the office of Russian
> president. They say that in Russia "law" works this way. Don't matter if
> someone is guilty or not, Russian courts that are controled by Putin, will
>make up a "law, or regulation" it needs to put their enemies in prison.

Well, it's true that Khodorkovsky's problems started when he set out anti-
Putin's propaganda in the US and Russia.
You know, I don't feel sorry for Khodorkovsky, nor for Russian "democracy"
because all oligarchs are former (or actual) thieves.

only Russians? :D

[kontrkultura]

waldek1610 napisał:

> ...
> Poland had too many enemies at the same time because we were leaders in
> democracy since 1600,
======
Hmmm... Dont those kings elected by polish nobility pretended for beeing
Sweden, or Russian kings and their teritory? ;)

> Remember that polish kings were elected not the dynastic. That's why Imperial
> Russia wanted to distroy Poland tottaly, Russia was always un-democratic and
> Russian people had no rights at all.
> ...
======
Did they had them in Poland? Yes, but only under Russian border!
(after "Styczniowe powstanie" [insurection] was puted down)
Before that only polish nobility were Polish citizens with their so many
rights. However its important to notice that in 3 May constitution such rights
wwere provided for all Poles, and other nations, but then it was too late for
anything.

[mishuk]

Russian tsars were not quite Russian, they were German!
Otherwise the last prince was sick with anemia, the illness of a married
relatives.

[mishuk]

> Just think what happened to Germany, Japan countries after those
> countries allied itself closely with USA- they got prosperous and democratic.
They didn't "ally" themselves with the USA, they were totally defeated in war.
And Americans enforced their democracy upon them. These both examples are good,
surely. But there are bad examples of American military intervention.
Nikaragua, Vietnam, Phillipines.
Americans just follow their own interests. Democracy they establish is only
a "by-product".

is popach all Russians?

[kontrkultura]

After reading one post you`re blaming all Russian in imperialism and you think
ideas that he presented are fully acceptable by all brainwashed Russians...
Isn`t it wrong way to understand Russians?

[lortea]

Most russiands think the same way, as popach. but most dangerous is that
russians governement, president, political and economy elits, have the same
looking at Poland, USA. Sorry for my english.

[kontrkultura]

So let me ask why do You think so?

[lortea]

I wrote about this many times.
Now a only remember:
- murdered thousands peoples in Warsaw by Suworow,
- Sybir,
- 1920,
- Katyń- is only symbolic words,
- 1945- 1989.

Who make this things- Marsians? No- russians.

[kontrkultura]

We are not speaking about history, but modern Russians...
Not Suworow...

[lortea]

Is suworow or sierow haven't children? Is modern rusiians flay from Mars? No,
they born and was educated, socializeted in family suworow or sierow. Russians
occupation Poland in 44-89 is very young history, i remember russians soldiers
who in "żniwa- za chiny nie wiem jak to po angielsku" in august, flay
helicopter and controll how many foods product in Zamojszczyzna in this year.
I remember this face, red stars on machine who flay dangerous short, short to
as and their lives. To my is not history.

[mishuk]

lortea, I am not sure that Poles behaved themselves and went for museums, when
they took Moscow in the 17th(?) century.

[kontrkultura]

For me it is history and shold be it. Without that treatment we would have only
wars and hate on whole globe...

[mishuk]

Agreed :)

[waldek1610]

Exactly, I agree with you totally. I hear the same "bias" from Russians who
think their country is the center of the World.
A lot of Russians don't realise that despite its size(twice bigger than the
USA) Russia's anuall GDP equals only 5% of what US makes. Isn't economy best
indicator how given country is doing?

[mishuk]

Well, guys. I think you are stuck in the past. Don't you read newspapers? Or
read some bullshit?
I can add that Russian GDP is 2 times lower than Polish one.
>Isn't economy best indicator how given country is doing?
No. Best indicator is GDP growth that was 6% last year.

[joh2008]

>>>I can add that Russian GDP is 2 times lower than Polish one.
What do you smoke, mate? I also want that stuff. How much does it cost? :)
Ok, lets be serious. Look to The World FactBook by CIA - www.cia.gov
Poland GDP: purchasing power parity - $463 billion (2004 est.)
Russian GDP: purchasing power parity - $1.408 trillion (2004 est.)
Where did you find your "Russian GDP is 2 times lower"???? The Polish GDP is
lower in 3 times.

Ok. Let's compare GDP per capita:
Russian GDP - per capita:purchasing power parity - $9,800 (2004 est.)
Poland GDP - per capita:purchasing power parity - $12,000 (2004 est.)
Yeah... Poland wins. The average Polish people are living better than average
Russians for 22%.
And what about GDP growth rate? Russia wins this round: 6.7% vs 5.6%...

[mishuk]

> What do you smoke, mate? I also want that stuff. How much does it cost? :)
I don't smoke. I am sportsman ;)

> Ok, lets be serious. Look to The World FactBook by CIA - www.cia.gov
> Poland GDP: purchasing power parity - $463 billion (2004 est.)
> Russian GDP: purchasing power parity - $1.408 trillion (2004 est.)
> Where did you find your "Russian GDP is 2 times lower"???? The Polish GDP is
> lower in 3 times.

I think I messed up with figures. I have read Polish newspaper in Russian
translation. It was mentioned there about Russian and Polish GDP. Perhaps, it
was a provocation on part of Russian translator ;)

> Ok. Let's compare GDP per capita:
> Russian GDP - per capita:purchasing power parity - $9,800 (2004 est.)
> Poland GDP - per capita:purchasing power parity - $12,000 (2004 est.)
> Yeah... Poland wins. The average Polish people are living better than average
> Russians for 22%.
> And what about GDP growth rate? Russia wins this round: 6.7% vs 5.6%...
Oops.

[waldek1610]

If you fall so low and Russia's economy is not producing what it should its
very easy to have 6% growth. So what? Irland had 7% and Poland about 5%.
How do you explain to me that Russia which is about 50 times bigger
teritorialy, and its population is 4 times bigger than Poland's is only
producing GDP less than twice bigger of relatively small country such as Poland.

[joh2008]

>How do you explain to me that Russia which is about 50 times bigger
> teritorialy, and its population is 4 times bigger than Poland's is only
> producing GDP less than twice bigger of relatively small country such as Poland
Ja mozx obiasnit. Vo Rosia raztrat za produktenie es veljusx cxem vo Polakia.
Skolk cenit vo Polakia raztrat za teplenie? Ti zabuvat sxto vo Rosia zima es
sxes-siem mesiacis i temperatur v 70% territoriaf dosagit do -30C i mensx.

Russo-Polish partnership

[waldek1610]

joh2008 napisał:

> >How do you explain to me that Russia which is about 50 times bigger
> > teritorialy, and its population is 4 times bigger than Poland's is only
> > producing GDP less than twice bigger of relatively small country such as
> Poland
> Ja mozx obiasnit. Vo Rosia raztrat za produktenie es veljusx cxem vo Polakia.
> Skolk cenit vo Polakia raztrat za teplenie? Ti zabuvat sxto vo Rosia zima es
> sxes-siem mesiacis i temperatur v 70% territoriaf dosagit do -30C i mensx.

That's why Russia is so mad at Poland for pulling Ukraine (fertile farms) away
from Russia.
I don't believe that Russia exports everything it produces to Poland...It used
to be that between years 1945-89 Poland had to send Soviet Russia coal and
in "return" Poland had also send Russia potatoes....sounds funny but it was
true. That was the idea between Russian -Polish "partnership".

[mishuk]

> If you fall so low and Russia's economy is not producing what it should its
> very easy to have 6% growth. So what? Irland had 7% and Poland about 5%.
> How do you explain to me that Russia which is about 50 times bigger
> teritorialy, and its population is 4 times bigger than Poland's is only
> producing GDP less than twice bigger of relatively small country such as
Poland
> .
I can explain the fact by that Poland started its way to democracy and free
market a while earlier than Russia. Also small countries are more mobile in the
law-making, decision-making etc.

[kontrkultura]

Yes Russia started changes bit later but it`s not the main problem in
difference that we all can see. Problem is in transparency which did not exist
during process of those changes in Russia and allowed to get it out of the
controll and corruption on large scale.

Can modern Russia be proud of (above) the same scale growth GPD when in Russia
it`s mostly depend of oil price?

[mishuk]

> Yes Russia started changes bit later but it`s not the main problem in
> difference that we all can see. Problem is in transparency which did not
exist
> during process of those changes in Russia and allowed to get it out of the
> controll and corruption on large scale.

Well, some transparency exists. This is an objective of mass-media (if laws and
judges don't work). Believe you me, in spite of government control the freedom
of speech still exists here!!!

>
> Can modern Russia be proud of (above) the same scale growth GPD when in
Russia
> it`s mostly depend of oil price?
Sure, she can't. And this war in Iraq is helping Russian bureocrats to get more
lardy and more passive as the country is pumping in with petro bucks.

[kontrkultura]

mishuk napisał:

> Well, some transparency exists. This is an objective of mass-media (if laws
> and judges don't work). Believe you me, in spite of government control the
> freedom of speech still exists here!!!
======
But althrow all newspapers and TV stations belog to government or people from
Putins team.

> Sure, she can't. And this war in Iraq is helping Russian bureocrats to get
> more lardy and more passive as the country is pumping in with petro bucks.

Russia's desintegration is imminent,

[waldek1610]

mishuk napisał:

> > If you fall so low and Russia's economy is not producing what it should i
> ts
> > very easy to have 6% growth. So what? Irland had 7% and Poland about 5%.
> > How do you explain to me that Russia which is about 50 times bigger
> > teritorialy, and its population is 4 times bigger than Poland's is only
> > producing GDP less than twice bigger of relatively small country such as
> Poland
> > .
> I can explain the fact by that Poland started its way to democracy and free
> market a while earlier than Russia. Also small countries are more mobile in
the
>
> law-making, decision-making etc.

I agree with what you just wrote; "Small countries are more mobile in the law-
making..." exactly. Russia shoul brake up into at least 20 mid size countries,
then it would be doing much better economicaly and in democratic changes. I
believe Russia's brake up going to happen sooner or later.

[kontrkultura]

It`s harder to intoduce changes, but large country have much more
possybilities, huge and more atractive market... etc.
More advantages than disadvantages of beeing huge country.

[mishuk]

Uh-huh.
Dream, baby.
While Europe unify and get together, what the hell Russia will disintegrate for?
All we need is decentralization!

[mishuk]

If you want to understand Russia, just imagine huge country half-stuck between
totalitarism and democracy, with huge border-line with China and Islamic
countries which population boosts up, while Russian one is going down. I am
sure collapse of Russia would be a catasrophe more serious than collapse of the
USSR. And you can guess why yourselves.

why?

[kontrkultura]

1.Why do You think that collapsion of USSR was catostrophy?
2.Why do You think that democracy means to be weak? I dont think so.

[mishuk]

1. Collapse of the USSR was catastrophy of economy first of all.
If I were Gorbachev I wouldn't give so much freedom without giving bread!
2. Democracy is strong if the state (and government) is strong enough.If the
state is weak, democracy is weak too.
The building of state and democracy are parallel processes, I guess.
Putin started with quite liberal reforms, now he is enforcing the state.
But I don't like the idea of abolishment of governors' election. Uh-huh.

[kontrkultura]

> ...
> 2. Democracy is strong if the state (and government) is strong enough.If the
> state is weak, democracy is weak too.
> The building of state and democracy are parallel processes, I guess.
> Putin started with quite liberal reforms, now he is enforcing the state.
> But I don't like the idea of abolishment of governors' election. Uh-huh.
======
All democracies that became dictatorship were on the same way like Russia now.
Most comparable to Putin`s demokracy was August`s speaking about it. By the way
both of them used same trick (with spektaculary "leaving") to convince `demo`s
that they want him to stay.

It`s not enouth to have strong state, government, and elections to have strong
democracy. It is necessary to have strong law, transparency and goverment
control mechanism. When Putin with his team rules whole country how can we
speak about srong democracy???

[mishuk]

> All democracies that became dictatorship were on the same way like Russia
now.

Personally, I don't believe in dictatorship in Russia in the future. Russians
will loose much more if the true dictatorship starts. The "orange revolution"
spirit definitely takes place here. It's not too distinct, but not too weak as
well.

> It`s not enouth to have strong state, government, and elections to have
strong
> democracy. It is necessary to have strong law, transparency and goverment
> control mechanism. When Putin with his team rules whole country how can we
> speak about srong democracy???

I agree. When speaking about strong state, I didn't mean to be right-wing, I
just wanted to say that law-makers, judges (which are the state officials)
should be strong and independent. As for the public control mechanism, Putin
once proposed to establish Public Chamber with consultive functions (with
majority of government and Duma representatives... yucky). But still its better
than nothing.
In America they have a huge number of non-government public organizations that
keep their democracy afloat. I guess we must go the same way.

[kontrkultura]

mishuk napisał:

> ...
> I agree. When speaking about strong state, I didn't mean to be right-wing, I
> just wanted to say that law-makers, judges (which are the state officials)
> should be strong and independent.
======
Now they are not :/

> As for the public control mechanism, Putin once proposed to establish Public
> Chamber with consultive functions (with majority of government and Duma
> representatives... yucky). But still its better than nothing.
======
Again Putin wanted to control himself :D
Is it better than nothing? I don`t know if such new institutionr can be used by
it`s creator for reaching goals in politacal battles.

> In America they have a huge number of non-government public organizations
> that keep their democracy afloat. I guess we must go the same way.
=====
Exactly!

[zwierz.alpuhary]

> In America they have a huge number of non-government public organizations that
> keep their democracy afloat.

I'm afraid that Vladimir Putin, who doesn't seem to be an enthusiast of
democracy, also knows about it and that's why the NGO's in Russia are now so
badly persecuted; they have a bad luck to receive funds from the West