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Why western values are on its heads?

12.01.06, 12:56
When in 1989 Poland finally freed itself and helped other Eastern European
countries free themselves, something happened what whe could least expect, we
started to loose faith in western values.

All the sudden it seemed clear that Germany that only few decades earlier
commited most gruesome and barbaric deeds is now considered very civilised,
while Poland that was traditionally a bicon of freedom and liberty and
prosperity is now look down upon and considered poor and uncivilized.

It takes some study to understand that even if Poles stole all automobiles
ever made in Germany its worth only fraction of what Germany stole from
Poland, in the form of art, national treasure, countless buildings lost for
ever to greed and plunder caused by Germanic race. But never mind today,
Germans pretend to be shocked when few Poles steals few of their cars, or
their job...

It looks like it doesn't pay to be honest and idealistic, because yesterday's
criminal it today's judge....never changing even a bit.
Obserwuj wątek
                  • usenetposts Re: Why western values are on its heads? 13.01.06, 15:20
                    waldek1610 napisał:

                    > Davey,
                    > Why did you emigrate to Poland anyways? You could not find a desk job in your
                    > native England?

                    That's more or less it, Waldek.

                    In 1991 a recession in desk jobs swept the land, and for the first time
                    accountants, actuaries and other tedium-merchants had to scrabble for the few
                    there were - some employers even expected you to provide your own desk! People
                    stood for weeks in the queue moving their desks forward centimetre by
                    centimetre, only to be told the position was filled.

                    In the January 1991 copy of Desk Jobs Monthly there were as little as 16 desk
                    jobs for the whole country, and each had a queue of 160,000 people to it. My CV
                    didn't stand a chance to get to the top of the pile. So I got a copy of Poland
                    Desk Jobs and it was full of work, so I thought, I'd better go there, not stick
                    it out in a depressed situation like this.

                    Of course, we didn't have the Channel Tunnel in those days, so getting here by
                    car from the funny Island I lived on was frought with difficulties, and we
                    didn't even have windows in our computers. My first computer than I used in
                    Poland was a MS-DOS operating system, and I didn't used to use e-mail, I used
                    to print things out and fax them, or even sent them in envelopes with stamps on.

                    But at least I had a desk, so I was happy.

                    It was either that or become a painter, there were at least a hundred jobs
                    going in Aspiring Artist in Society weekly.

                    And you tell that to young people today, and they don't believe you.
              • waldek1610 Re: Why western values are on its heads? 13.01.06, 06:56
                missus.c napisała:

                > ANSWER the question.
                >
                > Why do you live in the West, if it's values are so bad?


                You are doing what they call "suggestive questioning". I have answered your
                question anyways, just to make it clear that while there's no perfect
                societies, some are more free and positive than others.

                Perheaps now its your turn to answer my question; Why do you believe in
                political correctnes? Do you like to be lied to? Can't you make your own point
                of view based on logic?
        • usenetposts Re: Why western values are on its heads? 12.01.06, 15:00
          waldek1610 napisał:

          > missus.c napisała:
          >
          > > So why do you live in the West if their values are so bad?
          >
          >
          > Jesus lived in Palestine that was brutally accupied by Roman Empire, and
          Jewish
          >
          > patriarhs were not better than Romans, yet...
          >

          Yet what?

          He was a special case. It is written: "Foxes have holes, and the birds of the
          air have nests, but the Son of Man hath not where to lay his head".

          Hast thou not where to lay thine head, Waldek?

          He had to be "despised and rejected of men" so as to fulfill the propesies in
          Isaiah....
    • ianek70 Re: Why western values are on its heads? 12.01.06, 14:04
      waldek1610 napisał:

      > When in 1989 Poland finally freed itself and helped other Eastern European
      > countries free themselves, something happened what whe could least expect, we
      > started to loose faith in western values.

      1. Were you in Europe at that time or did you hear about this from TV?
      2. Who is "we"?
      • varsovian Re: Why western values are on its heads? 12.01.06, 14:50
        What Waldo is trying to say is he has voted with his feet and left Poland for a
        better life somewhere else and isn't perfectly happy about life where he is.
        That's fine, but why doesn't he say so?
        I mean, well OK I didn't exactly decide to come to Poland (wife twisted my
        wotsits on this one) but I'm here and I don't complain too much. Some things
        good, some bad, the usual story.
        Come clean Waldo, open up and tell the truth, and nothing but the truth.
        • missus.c questions for Waldek 12.01.06, 15:22
          too many questions for him at once, I thinksmile
          But I'll add these:

          How old are you?
          Where exactly do you live?
          How long have you lived away from Polska?

          Simple enough, I hope.
          • russh Re: questions for Waldek 12.01.06, 15:56
            We know a little.

            He is 32ish, has lived in the states for 13 years, is an American citizen, and
            has served in the forces, or in the Police.

            He is a portrait painter, and an keen supporter of anything British (sorry,
            Anglo-Saxon, which might, depending on the post, include the States). He admires
            almost anything that the British do or say, to the point that even the British
            find it embarassing.

            He loves big women, is a lover of ethnic minorities, and Frederic Chopin.

            He professes to love Poland, but knows very little about its current condition,
            although a lot about its history.

            He is an avid stereotyper, but hates stereotyping.

            I'm thinking of writing a biography, so will keep the rest for the book!

            If there any errors in the description of Waldek, then it is because I have been
            confused by, or maybe just misunderstood, some of his posts. Please forgive me.
            • waldek1610 Did I hit a right cord, to deserve this bashing? 13.01.06, 07:43
              I must have pointed out the tabu subject; Westerners with its warped ideals;
              who love to cherish its influence and ignore the rest of Europe. Westerners who
              consider it to be prefectly OK to treat repainted barbarians (Germans) as the
              modern people, and suck up to them because they have... money, while they
              ignore Poland that according to them is at best "irrevelant..if not outright
              bad" for being more about ideals not about making money.

              So maybe someone will be a man (or a woman) enough to answer my original
              question, instead of diverting attention to me and trying to crucify me because
              I dare to point out Western lack of political morals?

              Question; Do westerners pretend not to see the problem when they treat
              yesterday criminals (Germany) as today's (and in fact yesterdays heros) while
              ignoring Poland? Ignoring Polad because it dared in the past to be stronger
              than most of Western Europe, and now when Poland seems to regain its power it
              is just clearly inconvenient so now it has to be badmouthed?
              • ianek70 Re: Did I hit a right cord, to deserve this bashi 13.01.06, 12:45
                waldek1610 napisał:

                > Question; Do westerners pretend not to see the problem when they treat
                > yesterday criminals (Germany) as today's (and in fact yesterdays heros) while
                > ignoring Poland?

                The criminals were sentenced at Nuremberg, and they are all dead now.

                > Ignoring Polad because it dared in the past to be stronger
                > than most of Western Europe, and now when Poland seems to regain its power it
                > is just clearly inconvenient so now it has to be badmouthed?

                Is it not a bit stupid to ask people who live in Poland about ignoring Poland?
                Why not ask the people who are ignoring it, if they exist. I know of a few folk
                who left Poland and are now completely ignorant of it, but that's not really
                the same smile
                • waldek1610 Re: Did I hit a right cord, to deserve this bashi 13.01.06, 12:56
                  ianek70 napisał:

                  > waldek1610 napisał:
                  >
                  > > Question; Do westerners pretend not to see the problem when they treat
                  > > yesterday criminals (Germany) as today's (and in fact yesterdays heros) w
                  > hile
                  > > ignoring Poland?
                  >
                  > The criminals were sentenced at Nuremberg, and they are all dead now.

                  Yes, that's true. Unfortunatelly history lives on, and is rewriten to suite
                  onces needs. Try to reach for any english language newspaper or periodical,
                  chances are you will never see word GERMANY and NAZI in one sentence. And also
                  even bigger chances exist that when you read about POLAND and WWII in the one
                  sentence its going to be about Jews...


                  > > Ignoring Polad because it dared in the past to be stronger
                  > > than most of Western Europe, and now when Poland seems to regain its powe
                  > r it
                  > > is just clearly inconvenient so now it has to be badmouthed?
                  >
                  > Is it not a bit stupid to ask people who live in Poland about ignoring
                  Poland?
                  > Why not ask the people who are ignoring it, if they exist. I know of a few
                  folk
                  >
                  > who left Poland and are now completely ignorant of it, but that's not really
                  > the same smile

                  Living in it and working for its good are totally two seperate cases. All
                  London July bombers lived in UK...so what. And you didn't seem to care that one
                  of most accomplished Poles spend most of their lives abroads as well; Chopin,
                  Paderewski, Sklodowska-Curie, Polanski, Conrad ..I could go on for ever.
                  • ianek70 Re: Did I hit a right cord, to deserve this bashi 13.01.06, 13:07
                    waldek1610 napisał:

                    > Living in it and working for its good are totally two seperate cases.

                    Well, thanks to your efforts more people will treat Poles seriously and your
                    nation will once again hold its head up proud. Or something.

                    > And you didn't seem to care that one
                    > of most accomplished Poles spend most of their lives abroads as well; Chopin,
                    > Paderewski, Sklodowska-Curie, Polanski, Conrad ..I could go on for ever.

                    Me personally? You're right, I don't care, why should I?
                    Sean Connery lives in Spain, John Logie-Baird did most of his inventing
                    somewhere far, far away and my mate Andy lives near London now.
                    Eto żizń, as your Slavic cousins say.
                    • waldek1610 Re: Did I hit a right cord, to deserve this bashi 14.01.06, 07:05
                      ianek70 napisał:

                      > waldek1610 napisał:
                      >
                      > > Living in it and working for its good are totally two seperate cases.
                      >
                      > Well, thanks to your efforts more people will treat Poles seriously and your
                      > nation will once again hold its head up proud. Or something.
                      >
                      > > And you didn't seem to care that one
                      > > of most accomplished Poles spend most of their lives abroads as well; Cho
                      > pin,
                      > > Paderewski, Sklodowska-Curie, Polanski, Conrad ..I could go on for ever.
                      >
                      > Me personally? You're right, I don't care, why should I?
                      > Sean Connery lives in Spain, John Logie-Baird did most of his inventing
                      > somewhere far, far away and my mate Andy lives near London now.
                      > Eto żizń, as your Slavic cousins say.


                      So you just agreed that your last statement about me living abroads and being
                      out of touch with "Polish matters" is irrevelant. Can you make up your mind
                      please?
          • waldek1610 Germany is good because it is rich..Poland is bad? 13.01.06, 07:50
            because it is poor? Is that your Western European logic? Do you people have any
            morals?

            missus.c napisała:

            > too many questions for him at once, I thinksmile
            > But I'll add these:
            >
            > How old are you?
            > Where exactly do you live?
            > How long have you lived away from Polska?
            >
            > Simple enough, I hope.


            OK, It sounds like I'm being questioned by FBI or better jet security forces of
            some dictatorship....Why all the sudden it matters where I curently live?
            Would you please bother yourself with answering my question first. Why is
            everybody afraid of even touching on the real subject of Western European
            arrogance, and lack of political morals...
          • waldek1610 Re: questions for Waldek 13.01.06, 09:56
            missus.c napisała:

            > too many questions for him at once, I thinksmile
            > But I'll add these:

            Oh, would you be so nice. I promise I wont waste your precious time sir!

            > How old are you?

            I'm 50 years old, sir, I promisse I wont be much of the old prick for you!

            > Where exactly do you live?

            I live in Chicago, in the inpoverished Polish neigbourhood. I'm sorry sir, but
            I had to leave Poland, I'm now worth much, but please forgive me!

            > How long have you lived away from Polska?

            Sorry Sir, but it depends if you want to prove I don't know nothing about
            America, you can say I lived in USA 6 months, if its more convenient, and you
            need to prove I'm out of touch with Polish matters you can say I lived in USA
            since 1960'ties.

            Whatever suites your needs Sir, I'm here to be offended by your Western
            magnigficence. Thank you for being so kind as to ask me those very nice
            questions.
            Waldek

            > Simple enough, I hope.
      • waldek1610 Re: Why western values are on its heads? 13.01.06, 07:25
        Why do you always bring up "Europe"? Europe (its western part had its back
        turned to Poland) and did not care much what was happening in Poland. Worst
        yet it was happy to enjoy relative influence, while East of Europe was shut off
        from posibility of compiting with the Western part...


        In 1989 in fact I was living in Poland and to answer your question, I was
        propably a the the school at that time...

        Janeczek czy Twoja mysla przewodnia jest; "Nasza Polska, tylko nasza", "won z
        lapami emigranci, i wszyscy ktorzy mysla inaczej" Potwierdzasz regule ze jestes
        polskim warcholem ktory mysli ze tylko on ma racje.
        • ianek70 Re: Why western values are on its heads? 13.01.06, 13:01
          waldek1610 napisał:

          > Why do you always bring up "Europe"?

          Well, you're always lecturing people about the West, and Westerners, and
          particularly Western Europe (where you've probably never been). Poland is part
          of the West, as you'd know if you ever came here, so I'm just trying to explain
          the obvious point that America (where you live) is not the same as Europe
          (where I live). It's interesting for me what people like you in America think
          about Europe, although in your case your stereotypes are mostly pretty surreal.

          > Janeczek czy Twoja mysla przewodnia jest; "Nasza Polska, tylko nasza", "won z
          > lapami emigranci, i wszyscy ktorzy mysla inaczej" Potwierdzasz regule ze
          jestes
          >
          > polskim warcholem ktory mysli ze tylko on ma racje.

          Ty masz być może Polskę w sercu, ale ja jestem w sercu Polski i stąd wszystko
          wygląda trochę inaczej...
          I tak, wierzę, że to Nasza Polska. Celtowie byli tutaj 2.000 lat przed
          przybyciem pierwszych Słowian, więc won! Wracajcie Polacy do stepów!
          I've never been called a polski warchoł before, is it an insult?
          • missus.c Re: Why western values are on its heads? 13.01.06, 13:39
            > I've never been called a polski warchoł before, is it an insult?


            warchoł m IV, DB. -a, Ms. ~ole; lm M. -y, DB. -ów
            «człowiek łamiący prawo, zakłócający spokój, wywołujący przez swą kłótliwość i
            samowolę zamęt, zamieszanie; awanturnik, wichrzyciel»
            Mieć usposobienie warchoła.

            I think Waldek should apply that to himself. Seeing as he is Polish, or is he?

            • ianek70 Re: Why western values are on its heads? 13.01.06, 13:51
              missus.c napisała:

              > > I've never been called a polski warchoł before, is it an insult?

              > warchoł m IV, DB. -a, Ms. ~ole; lm M. -y, DB. -ów
              > «człowiek łamiący prawo, zakłócający spokój, wywołujący przez swą kłótliw
              > ość i
              > samowolę zamęt, zamieszanie; awanturnik, wichrzyciel»

              Czyli to może być zniewagą, ale to zależy od kontekstu smile

              > I think Waldek should apply that to himself. Seeing as he is Polish, or is he?

              Well, he used to be, but he claims to still have Poland in his wątroba, kolano
              or possibly dupa. I can't remember exactly.
                  • waldek1610 Re: Why western values are on its heads? 14.01.06, 07:56
                    missus.c napisała:

                    > And he is a Kombii fan. Well, that explains a few things...


                    ...And you not going to disquise anything about yourself, because it is safer
                    to hide in the shadow and stab Waldek in his back!?....Perheaps you could grow
                    up and create your "wizytowka" or your private forum so we could find out more
                    about yourself???

                    But, of course you prefer not to tell us even your name or your gender, because
                    someone like you could call you "Czesiek" or "Naive Politically Correct Maryska"
                    • missus.c Re: Why western values are on its heads? 14.01.06, 12:55
                      waldek1610 napisał:

                      > missus.c napisała:
                      >
                      > > And he is a Kombii fan. Well, that explains a few things...
                      >
                      >
                      > ...And you not going to disquise anything about yourself, because it is safer
                      > to hide in the shadow and stab Waldek in his back!?

                      Sorry, is this an interview? Is there a rule that says I have to DISUSS things
                      about myself. NO. And the only reason you want to know something about others
                      is to throw insults at them. I asked you a few simple questions before and it
                      was too difficult for you to answer them.

                      ....Perheaps you could grow
                      > up and create your "wizytowka" or your private forum so we could find out
                      more
                      > about yourself???

                      What has being 'grown up' got to do with having your own forum and profile on
                      the net? It is MY choice, I don't have to do it. Most people here do not have a
                      profile or a forum.

                      If you give information about yourself on the net, be prepared to take the
                      consequences and not ramble on about 'stabbing you in the back'. You need to
                      grow up - netwise.
                      >
                      > But, of course you prefer not to tell us even your name or your gender,
                      because
                      >
                      > someone like you could call you "Czesiek" or "Naive Politically Correct
                      Maryska

                      My gender? What do you need to know that for? So you can do more name calling
                      when you don't have any arguments left.
                      I'm sure mostly everyone here knows my gender, apart from you - as it looks
                      like you cannot read properly not forgetting the fact of answering questions.
                      And answering questions with questions is simply rude. I read your posts and it
                      seems your history here is non to rosy.

                      Take responsibility for what you write and how you write it - that's what being
                      grown up is about, Waldek
                      • missus.c forum 14.01.06, 13:56
                        So you think having a forum and a profile makes you 'grown up'.

                        Well maybe you should visit some of these and voice you hypociritcal views
                        there before you continue with preaching others things you don't practise.

                        forum.gazeta.pl/forum/71,1.html?f=21149

                        forum.gazeta.pl/forum/71,1.html?f=11940

                        forum.gazeta.pl/forum/71,1.html?f=13971

                        • waldek1610 Re: forum 15.01.06, 07:50
                          Why do you always seem to care about averybody but the Poles? You care about
                          Gypsies, Jews, Greeks living in Poland...that's quite ok by me, but... you
                          always get irritated when I bring up Poles rights, its discrimination in the
                          West and over all underestimating of Poland that is "in vouge" in Old EU?

                          Why is that?



                      • waldek1610 Re: Why western values are on its heads? 15.01.06, 07:42
                        Muccus,
                        You are so arrogant, you can't even read my questions properly. As you propably
                        noticed the 90% of the discussion that I participated in on this forum was
                        myself answering questions, and you others making personal attack against me.

                        Didn't you just few days ago asked me Gestapo style; "Where you live?, How old
                        I am, and how long did I lived outside of Poland?" This is exactly my point;
                        you want to know everything about myself, because you find me invonvenient, I'm
                        the guy who tells inconvienient truth about the West, instead of sucking up to
                        you, which you are used to living in richer Old EU countries.

                        The problem is that, you don't seem to notice that besides Old EU, British
                        interest there's also Polish, Ukrainian and other slavic countries
                        intrests...and we are not here to make you happy, and keep you rich and
                        influencial. Polands intrest is to take your place, and build EU according to
                        our ways not yours.

                        But of course you can't understand that, you seem to think that eastern
                        Europeans should be little docile people that you can push around and tell them
                        what's better for them....
                        • russh Re: Why western values are on its heads? 15.01.06, 07:54
                          Where do you get the ideas for your statements from?

                          'We are not there to make you happy' (putting Poland and the Ukraine together).
                          'Our ways' (are your 'ways' Polish). I wonder if the Polish people would agree?

                          Polands place in the EU is as every country's, to contribute towards making it a
                          better place for everybody. At least that's what the theory says.
                          • waldek1610 Re: Why western values are on its heads? 15.01.06, 08:15
                            russh napisał:

                            > Where do you get the ideas for your statements from?

                            Well, not from British media that's for sure, if you ever red any polish or
                            other newspapers you would be more willing to agree with me.


                            > 'We are not there to make you happy' (putting Poland and the Ukraine
                            together).
                            > 'Our ways' (are your 'ways' Polish). I wonder if the Polish people would
                            agree?

                            Come on it's not like you never heard of Radio Maryia or TV Trwam, yes the one
                            the Western media such as BBC hates so much, just because those Catholic
                            Medias dares to tell polish people, that we don't have to change our ways to
                            suite Western expectations. Can you blame them?


                            Most of "Polish people" are on polish language forums, and those that a half
                            way profficient in english are busy making their cariers or trying to make
                            something out of it....


                            > Polands place in the EU is as every country's, to contribute towards making
                            it
                            > a
                            > better place for everybody. At least that's what the theory says.

                            So far so good, but why is Old EU acting like Poland joined Europe last
                            year...the truth is that Poland has its vision of Europe and its always been in
                            Europe? All I'm saying is that the Old EU joined the New Europe as well, so it
                            should also adjust. Please don't confuse Eastern Europe with Communism because
                            that was brutal Russian occupation, and not our choice.
                        • missus.c Re: Why western values are on its heads? 15.01.06, 13:02
                          waldek1610 napisał:

                          > Muccus,
                          > You are so arrogant, you can't even read my questions properly. As you
                          propably
                          >
                          > noticed the 90% of the discussion that I participated in on this forum was
                          > myself answering questions, and you others making personal attack against me.

                          Well, it seems you can't read wince my nick is too difficult to write. If you
                          ask questions, wait or accept the answers. Why ask if you have the answers
                          already.
                          >
                          > Didn't you just few days ago asked me Gestapo style; "Where you live?, How
                          old
                          > I am, and how long did I lived outside of Poland?"

                          Gestapo tatics? I assure you they used much worse forms of questionins than
                          that. They already knew where people lived etc. before the executed or torured
                          them.

                          This is exactly my point;
                          > you want to know everything about myself, because you find me invonvenient,

                          Yes, people ask you those simple questions because they would like to know why
                          and how you come up with your extraodrinary theories. Where your 'back up'
                          stems from. I don't find you inconvenient I just want to help you stop making
                          an idiot of yourself.

                          I'm
                          >
                          > the guy who tells inconvienient truth about the West, instead of sucking up
                          to
                          > you, which you are used to living in richer Old EU countries.

                          Then stop. Because it is a bit silly you doing that, whilst living in the
                          westest west and knowing so little about the place you want to preach about and
                          where most of us are, today.
                          And stop blaming us and dividing into categories ie 'old, richer, EU
                          countries'. Some people, countries had a better start, fair enough - but write
                          to those who were responsible, the politicians.
                          I wonder how you would explain yourself to any Czech who came here ranting and
                          raving on about 1968 and kept attacking you.

                          >
                          > The problem is that, you don't seem to notice that besides Old EU, British
                          > interest there's also Polish, Ukrainian and other slavic countries
                          > intrests...


                          Have you read ANYTHING anyone has written to you. And know why many of the
                          foreigners of this forum are here?

                          and we are not here to make you happy, and keep you rich and
                          > influencial.

                          Again, you are completely paranoid.

                          Polands intrest is to take your place, and build EU according to
                          > our ways not yours.

                          Is it? and are you here to be making such statments? No.
                          Poland need not take anyones place but look after its own interest and tak
                          advantage of any (financial) help it can get and make use of any experience
                          that other countries can provide to help it do so.

                          > But of course you can't understand that, you seem to think that eastern
                          > Europeans should be little docile people that you can push around and tell
                          them
                          > what's better for them....

                          You keep reffering to Poland as Eastern Europe. Well wise up. This is CENTRAL
                          Europe, stop using old terms and conforming old theories which you so want to
                          extinguish.

                          Non of my friends or colleagues can confirm this whole 'pushing around'
                          paranoia. Many of them are grateful for the Eu and open borders and the fact
                          they can travel and work and see other culture and welcome it also in Poland.



                          >

                          >
                          >
          • waldek1610 Re: Why western values are on its heads? 14.01.06, 07:49
            ianek70 napisał:

            > waldek1610 napisał:
            >
            > > Why do you always bring up "Europe"?
            >
            > Well, you're always lecturing people about the West, and Westerners, and
            > particularly Western Europe (where you've probably never been). Poland is
            part
            > of the West, as you'd know if you ever came here, so I'm just trying to
            explain
            >
            > the obvious point that America (where you live) is not the same as Europe
            > (where I live). It's interesting for me what people like you in America think
            > about Europe, although in your case your stereotypes are mostly pretty
            surreal.

            You don't feel offended when you read english edition of European history,
            especially that between 1400-1700, where the author decides to omit bigger part
            of Europe- The Polish Commonwealth and in fact the biggest Europeand kindom?

            Of couse British, Germans and French love you, but they are not men enough to
            admit that real power was not always on their hands, the worse it was Poland
            that was powerfull. Does it really satisfies you to be EU third league? Polands
            place is somewhere between UK and Itally and not where the ignorant Old EU sees
            us next to the Slovenia and Lithuania...

            > > Janeczek czy Twoja mysla przewodnia jest; "Nasza Polska, tylko nasza", "w
            > on z
            > > lapami emigranci, i wszyscy ktorzy mysla inaczej" Potwierdzasz regule ze
            > jestes
            > >
            > > polskim warcholem ktory mysli ze tylko on ma racje.
            >
            > Ty masz być może Polskę w sercu, ale ja jestem w sercu Polski i stąd wszystko
            > wygląda trochę inaczej...
            > I tak, wierzę, że to Nasza Polska. Celtowie byli tutaj 2.000 lat przed
            > przybyciem pierwszych Słowian, więc won! Wracajcie Polacy do stepów!
            > I've never been called a polski warchoł before, is it an insult?


            You sound like you know better, you act as if you were alfa and omega, and talk
            to me as if I was born just yesterday. That's what makes you "warchol"...
            • missus.c Re: Why western values are on its heads? 14.01.06, 12:48
              So, everyone get's their 15 minutes of fame. Since Waldeks artistic career
              seems well, non existent, maybe the net is the only place he can get that 15
              minutes of attention, eh?
              So the whole 'warchol' name calling is maybe referring to his admiration for
              Andy Warhol, Ian? smile))))))
              • waldek1610 Re: Why western values are on its heads? 15.01.06, 08:02
                Am I talking to the the arrogant, self loving Westerner or what?
                Its clear that you hate everything I say, because I'm ruining you vision of
                yourself as the representant of the Old EU who always knows better.

                I'm simply reminding you that, you are not the center of the World, what your
                opinions are arrogant and selfish, you never consider what's good for Poland,
                and you only care about your own well beign....
                  • waldek1610 Re: Why western values are on its heads? 15.01.06, 08:22
                    Perheaps if you said something positive about Poland once an awhile, I would
                    not have to defend my point for so long. It's your prejudices against Poland,
                    that make me angry.

                    But, what do I care, I'll leave you alone so you can cultivate your ideas about
                    backward Poland, if that will make you happy.
                    • russh Re: Why western values are on its heads? 15.01.06, 09:09
                      waldek1610 napisał:

                      > Perheaps if you said something positive about Poland once an awhile, I would
                      > not have to defend my point for so long. It's your prejudices against Poland,
                      > that make me angry.
                      >
                      > But, what do I care, I'll leave you alone so you can cultivate your ideas about
                      >
                      > backward Poland, if that will make you happy.


                      If you read my posts, you would not have made this statement.
                        • russh Re: Why western values are on its heads? 15.01.06, 10:09
                          waldek1610 napisał:

                          > If you read my posts, you would not be against me as well. Dont you love your
                          > country? So why can't you understand that I love mine?


                          I do understand you love your country.

                          The problem is I am against you because your statements are incorrect, racist
                          and bigoted.

                          Your view is terribly slanted, always portrays Poland as being persecuted (not
                          true), and constantly refers back to a period several hundred years ago (useful
                          as history, but no relevance in todays world).
                          • waldek1610 Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish? 15.01.06, 10:32
                            Over all I share views of most my fellow Poles, and we agree on one point
                            Poland should play much greather role in Europe and the World, the role that is
                            relative to its potential.

                            Meanwhile it seems that the West does all it can to ignore Poland whenever it
                            is possible. It makes me wonder if being slav has do anything with it? Is
                            something in our ways that you guys hate so much that you avoid giving Poland
                            any credit, not only historically but also in todays reality?
                            • russh Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 15.01.06, 11:23
                              What are the views (plural) or your fellow Poles that you share?

                              Who says that Poland should not play a greater role in Europe and the world, and
                              that the role should be relative to its potential?

                              As a matter of interest, what is Poland's potential?

                              Re the second part of your post, it is so wrong that it does not deserve an reply.
                              • waldek1610 Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 15.01.06, 11:48
                                Why do I always have to do the explaining, and not you? Fi anyone...its you
                                that owe me explanations...
                                Poland's potential is today is comparable with Spain or Itally, but
                                historically (I know you don't want to hear about this) equaled to...well more
                                than todays Germany. Poland's has reached perheaps 25 % of its full potenial as
                                of now.

                                To name the few, teritorialy Polands is greather than UK or Itally and only
                                slightly smaller than Germany's. The only reason why Poland falls behind is its
                                location betweet Germany and Russia...

                                Regarding the Western Slavo phobia it does exist, and while you deny if this
                                subject was discussed in every polish media since I can remember. Why you don't
                                know about it? Because it is not reason for you guys to be proud, I guess.

                                You might deny it but this Slavo phobia shows mainly in the western comments
                                about all that is slavic. For example the British book on the late medieval
                                knights in Europe...excludes Poland all together...which is interesting,
                                because it is as if you wrote a book about todays European football forgeting
                                to mention....England or Italy.

                                You ask for more recent stuff? OK, Poland, besides USA and UK is in charge of
                                one of the three stabilisation zones in Iraq, the fact often ignored by western
                                media? Why is that? You don't accept Poland in a role of a leader?
                            • missus.c Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 15.01.06, 13:07
                              waldek1610 napisał:

                              > Over all I share views of most my fellow Poles, and we agree on one point
                              > Poland should play much greather role in Europe and the World, the role that
                              is
                              >
                              > relative to its potential.
                              >
                              And it is Poland and its politicians that are responsible for Polands future.
                              So get to work.

                              > Meanwhile it seems that the West does all it can to ignore Poland whenever it
                              > is possible. It makes me wonder if being slav has do anything with it? Is
                              > something in our ways that you guys hate so much that you avoid giving Poland
                              > any credit, not only historically but also in todays reality?


                              There is no point in using Iraq as an argument in this one Waldek. Most Poles
                              will tell you, are presence there is doing exactly the opposite to promoting
                              our country. It isn't our war and there was and is still wide spread protest at
                              our soldiers presence there.

                              Also, most think that we are only there to kiss the wests a*se - which is what
                              you seem to be fighting here all this time, that Poland is independent and
                              strong doesn't need to do that.>
                              >
                              >
                            • brutt Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 15.01.06, 22:45
                              waldek1610 napisał:

                              > Over all I share views of most my fellow Poles, and we agree on one point
                              > Poland should play much greather role in Europe and the World, the role that is

                              Who's we and how many of you are there? You as a single person, cannot and don't
                              have the right to speak for an entire nation.

                              > relative to its potential.
                              >
                              > Meanwhile it seems that the West does all it can to ignore Poland whenever it
                              > is possible. It makes me wonder if being slav has do anything with it? Is
                              > something in our ways that you guys hate so much that you avoid giving Poland
                              > any credit, not only historically but also in todays reality?

                              I think that you are projecting your own personal inhibitions and insecurities
                              onto Poland and its citizens.

                              • waldek1610 Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 16.01.06, 06:18
                                brutt napisał:

                                > waldek1610 napisał:

                                > > Meanwhile it seems that the West does all it can to ignore Poland whenever
                                > > it is possible. It makes me wonder if being slav has do anything with it? Is
                                > > something in our ways that you guys hate so much that you avoid giving Po
                                > > land any credit, not only historically but also in todays reality?


                                > I think that you are projecting your own personal inhibitions and insecurities
                                > onto Poland and its citizens.


                                Why are you trying to look for a problem in me, instead of explaining West's
                                ignorance towards Poland. If I felt insecure, I would not be telling you how it
                                is.

                                Give me one reason why everything Anglo-Saxon is promoted by the Old EU
                                countries, while it seems that all Slavic is looked down upon, not matter if it
                                has merrit to it. Poland's contemporary art for instance is just as advanced
                                and innovative as Germany's or British' art...but western critics seem to
                                totally ignore its existence.

                                This can't be the sign that Western Europe loves and admires Poland...is it?
                                • russh Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 16.01.06, 07:08
                                  Good morning Waldek

                                  How are you this morning? Here in Warsaw, it is cold, as you would expect at
                                  this time of year, but beautiful.

                                  The snow has covered just about everything, and the view from my house is like
                                  one of those on a post-card. It makes one forget the problems of life for a
                                  while, and marvel at the wonders of nature.

                                  What views have you from where you are?
                                  • waldek1610 Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 16.01.06, 10:28
                                    russh napisał:

                                    > Good morning Waldek
                                    >
                                    > How are you this morning? Here in Warsaw, it is cold, as you would expect at
                                    > this time of year, but beautiful.

                                    Hi Russh!

                                    Thank you, I am fine! And how are you today? Here in American Mid-West,
                                    weather is always extreme, it is either extremally cold or extremally hot.
                                    Right now it is quite warm...as you would not expect this time of the year.


                                    > The snow has covered just about everything, and the view from my house is like
                                    > one of those on a post-card. It makes one forget the problems of life for a
                                    > while, and marvel at the wonders of nature.
                                    >
                                    > What views have you from where you are?

                                    The temperature is at about 40 degrees Farentheit, and the local people are
                                    very nice, they speak english here so I had to follow formula; "When in Rome.."
                                    It makes life easier when you communicate in the official language of the land.

                                    What language do you use to communicate where you are (Poland)?
                                    • russh Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 16.01.06, 10:49
                                      waldek1610 napisał:

                                      > russh napisał:
                                      >
                                      > > Good morning Waldek
                                      > >
                                      > > How are you this morning? Here in Warsaw, it is cold, as you would expect
                                      > at
                                      > > this time of year, but beautiful.
                                      >
                                      > Hi Russh!
                                      >
                                      > Thank you, I am fine! And how are you today? Here in American Mid-West,
                                      > weather is always extreme, it is either extremally cold or extremally hot.
                                      > Right now it is quite warm...as you would not expect this time of the year.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > The snow has covered just about everything, and the view from my house is
                                      > like
                                      > > one of those on a post-card. It makes one forget the problems of life for
                                      > a
                                      > > while, and marvel at the wonders of nature.
                                      > >
                                      > > What views have you from where you are?
                                      >
                                      > The temperature is at about 40 degrees Farentheit, and the local people are
                                      > very nice, they speak english here so I had to follow formula; "When in Rome.."
                                      >
                                      > It makes life easier when you communicate in the official language of the land.
                                      >
                                      > What language do you use to communicate where you are (Poland)?


                                      Sign language, English and the few words I know of Polish. I have an extremely
                                      low capacity for learning languages, am not so young, have little immediate
                                      need, and am lazy. Not good, but I live and earn money.

                                      I hope that in the not too distant future I will become less lazy, ot have more
                                      need. The other inhibitors are unlikely to change.

                                      What do you do for a living? I teach, which is very satisfying, especially here
                                      in Warsaw, where there are so many quality people, many of whom want to learn
                                      English from a native speaker.
                                      • waldek1610 Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 16.01.06, 11:38
                                        russh napisał:

                                        > waldek1610 napisał:

                                        > > What language do you use to communicate where you are (Poland)?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Sign language, English and the few words I know of Polish. I have an extremely
                                        > low capacity for learning languages, am not so young, have little immediate
                                        > need, and am lazy. Not good, but I live and earn money.
                                        >
                                        > I hope that in the not too distant future I will become less lazy, ot have
                                        more
                                        > need. The other inhibitors are unlikely to change.
                                        >
                                        > What do you do for a living? I teach, which is very satisfying, especially
                                        here
                                        > in Warsaw, where there are so many quality people, many of whom want to learn
                                        > English from a native speaker.

                                        So pretty much all you have to do to make living is..... to speak your native
                                        language!? Well, that's one hell of the job!! It's just like monkey in a zoo,
                                        just being a monkey, you're one happy camper, I swear!

                                        I actually do same thing you do, I capitalize on being "different", and being
                                        an artist it actually helps to be "an odd ball" smile I used to be a cop but now
                                        I'm begining to be my own boss, and that's definitively a plus!
                                        • russh Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 16.01.06, 13:57
                                          > So pretty much all you have to do to make living is..... to speak your native
                                          > language!? Well, that's one hell of the job!! It's just like monkey in a zoo,
                                          > just being a monkey, you're one happy camper, I swear!

                                          Not quite. I teach (standard & business English), and enjoy it. Nothing to do
                                          with monkeys, I hope. I also believe that teaching is a very important
                                          profession, and one that it isn't just about speaking or reading to students. If
                                          you cannot relate to students, and impart knowledge, you cannot be a teacher, no
                                          matter how good in a particular subject you are. I truly wish to be a good
                                          teacher of English, not just someone who earns his bread speaking and reading
                                          English to foreigners.

                                          > I actually do same thing you do, I capitalize on being "different", and being
                                          > an artist it actually helps to be "an odd ball" smile I used to be a cop but now
                                          > I'm begining to be my own boss, and that's definitively a plus!

                                          I don't think I am different, at least not to my students, although I do
                                          capitalise on being a native teacher of English; it also helps in the lessons
                                          not being able to speak Polish. I'm sure you understand, having learnt English
                                          yourself.

                                          Being your own boss can be a big plus, but also has its negative aspects, as I'm
                                          sure you've experienced. Do you paint for a living now?

                                          • waldek1610 Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 19.01.06, 07:35
                                            russh napisał:

                                            > > So pretty much all you have to do to make living is..... to speak your na
                                            > tive
                                            > > language!? Well, that's one hell of the job!! It's just like monkey in a
                                            > zoo,
                                            > > just being a monkey, you're one happy camper, I swear!
                                            >
                                            > Not quite. I teach (standard & business English), and enjoy it. Nothing to do
                                            > with monkeys, I hope. I also believe that teaching is a very important
                                            > profession, and one that it isn't just about speaking or reading to students.
                                            > If you cannot relate to students, and impart knowledge, you cannot be a
                                            > teacher, no matter how good in a particular subject you are. I truly wish to
                                            > be a goodteacher of English, not just someone who earns his bread speaking
                                            > and reading English to foreigners.

                                            Well, I didn't mean to cause offence, but I was refering to the experience I
                                            have had. When I was visiting my ex-girlfirend home town Osaka, Japan I met a
                                            group of english and australians who happend to be teaching english in Osaka.
                                            They just happened to be sharing a house with my friends, so I had a chance to
                                            find out as they themself admited they had no formal teaching credentials, they
                                            were not licenced english teachers in their countries. But because they were
                                            native speakers they could make good money in Japan teaching english to
                                            Japanesse students....and as far as I'm concerned it was all that was required
                                            of them...

                                            > > I actually do same thing you do, I capitalize on being "different", and b
                                            > eing
                                            > > an artist it actually helps to be "an odd ball" smile I used to be a cop but
                                            > now
                                            > > I'm begining to be my own boss, and that's definitively a plus!


                                            > I don't think I am different, at least not to my students, although I do
                                            > capitalise on being a native teacher of English; it also helps in the lessons
                                            > not being able to speak Polish. I'm sure you understand, having learnt English
                                            > yourself.

                                            You're quite right, it takes skills to be an effective teacher, but teaching
                                            something that is as natural as ones own language seems an easy thing to do,
                                            its like an adult teaching toddler to walk...


                                            > Being your own boss can be a big plus, but also has its negative aspects, as
                                            > I'm sure you've experienced. Do you paint for a living now?

                                            The thing with painting is that you have to prove youfself before you start
                                            making living out of making art. Therefore, I'm not quite there yet, and I have
                                            to supplement it with other income.
                                            • usenetposts Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 19.01.06, 10:06
                                              waldek1610 napisał:

                                              > russh napisal:
                                              >
                                              > > Being your own boss can be a big plus, but also has its negative aspects,
                                              > as
                                              > > I'm sure you've experienced. Do you paint for a living now?
                                              >
                                              > The thing with painting is that you have to prove youfself before you start
                                              > making living out of making art. Therefore, I'm not quite there yet, and I
                                              have
                                              >
                                              > to supplement it with other income.

                                              Do you get fries with that "other income"?
                                • ianek70 Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 25.01.06, 12:43
                                  waldek1610 napisał:

                                  > Poland's contemporary art for instance is just as advanced
                                  > and innovative as Germany's or British' art...but western critics seem to
                                  > totally ignore its existence.

                                  Hmmm, a Kombi fan (who paints famous dead Poles) demanding uznanie for the
                                  radical avant-garde...
                                  Your sense of irony is, like, so post-modern, dude. As I believe you say in
                                  America smile
                                  • waldek1610 Re: Why do Anglo-Saxons despise everything Polish 26.01.06, 07:08
                                    ianek70 napisał:

                                    > waldek1610 napisał:
                                    >
                                    > > Poland's contemporary art for instance is just as advanced
                                    > > and innovative as Germany's or British' art...but western critics seem to
                                    >
                                    > > totally ignore its existence.
                                    >
                                    > Hmmm, a Kombi fan (who paints famous dead Poles) demanding uznanie for the
                                    > radical avant-garde...
                                    > Your sense of irony is, like, so post-modern, dude. As I believe you say in
                                    > America smile

                                    What's wrong with; Kombi or the famous Poles dead or alive? Kombi is just as
                                    bad as U2 in my book, the only difference is that Irish band is from english
                                    language country and therefore their success is a sort of given thing, I'm sure
                                    if Poles adopted english as a official language, soon we would
                                    have "superstars". As long as they sing in language other than enlgish forget
                                    it...

                                    Why is in your view everything got to be radical to get noticed?

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