Reading between the lines:Pope's speech

[szahtut]

.......
I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor
Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on

[szahtut]

szahtut napisał:

> .......
> I was reminded of all this recently, when I read the edition by Professor
> Theodore Khoury (Münster) of part of the dialogue carried on

[szahtut]

To whom my concern, I do not want to harm faith of anyone but just to put the
best light between the lines of B16 speech,

It is not a debate!!!!

......Now Manuel sought military aid against the Turks, first from Pope
Boniface IX and King Sigismund of Hungary. Sphrantzes, the historian in the
emperor's service, reports that the initiative originated with King Sigismund.
[[2]] Doukas on the other hand mentions that the emperor wrote to the Pope
and the kings of Hungary and France in this matter.[[3]]Relief from the West
was the only hope for Byzantium. At the end of 1395 Manuel sent his envoy
Manuel Philanthropenus to King Sigismund; at the beginning of 1396 he concluded
a treaty with him in which he obligated himself to equip ten ships at his own
expense and three at the king's expense for the crusade. The crusade of the
Hungarian king Sigismund of Luxemburg ended on September 25, 1396 in the battle
of Nicopolis in a complete fiasco. According to the panegyric of Isidore of
Monemvasia the Hungarian king fled on imperial galleys across the Black Sea to
Constantinople, where he met with Manuel and then returned to Hungary. Manuel
sent a message to the Venetian council, putting Byzantium in the hands of the
Venetian government. But Venice, which already in the fourteenth century viewed
Byzantium as a "lost outpost," abandoned the empire to its fate. It was
ready "to use Byzantium as a pawn, to surrender it as a concession to the
Turks," if it could thereby be assured of controlling the southern Aegean. This
first test of strength between the Ottomans and western Europe hardly brought
Byzantium any respite. In vain Manuel sent appeals for help to the Pope, the
Doge of Venice, and the kings of France, England, and Aragon, as well as the
Grand Prince of Moscow. A rumor circulated that John VII had made an offer to
the French king to sell him his claim to the Byzantine throne. Before the end
of 1399 Manuel turned even to the Mongolian ruler Tamerlane (Timur-lenk) for
help against the Ottomans. The French marshal Boucicaut, who had taken part in
the battle of Nicopolis, in 1399 broke through the Turkish blockade of the
Dardanelles with 1200 soldiers and arrived in Constantinople to the rejoicing
of the populace. He persuaded the emperor to accompany him on his return trip
to Europe......

www.roman-emperors.org/manuel2.htm
Manuel's writings have been preserved for posterity in spite of the conquest
and destruction of Constantinople. Of particular interest is his attitude
toward Islam. After his enthronement in March 1391 Manuel II still had to
perform military service for the sultan in Asia Minor from June 1391 to January
1392 as a vassal of the Turks. As part of it he not only had had (in late 1390)
to support the sultan against various Turkish emirates, but as an especial
humiliation he had to aid his mortal enemy with the conquest of Philadelphia,
the last Byzantine hold-out in Asia Minor, but now in May 1391 he was summoned
again to Anatolia and took part in a campaign on the Black Sea coast until Mid-
January1392. The emperor, who on the coins still bore the title King and
Autokrator, was as a vassal of course subject to the sultan's orders on
campaign

Pope made mistake in such conference!!!!!!!

[szahtut]

the emperor touches on the theme of the jihad (holy war). The emperor must have
known that surah 2, 256 reads: There is no compulsion in religion. It is one of
the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under
threat.

As you can see:
Surah 2, 256 “ Allah is the wali (Protector or Guardian) of those who believe.
He brings them out from darkness into light. But as for those who disbelieve,
their Aulya (supporters and helpers) are taghut (false deities and false
leaders, etc.), they bring them out from light into darkness. Those are the
dwellers of the Fire, and they will abide therein forever.”
But the entire, Surah 2,255
Surah 2, 255 “ There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right Path hase
become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes
in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never
break. And Allah is All-hearee, All-knower.”

The name of Surah 2 is AL-BAQARAH, why Why the name AL-BAQARAH?
www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau2.html
Theme: Guidance
This Surah is an invitation to the Divine Guidance and all the stories,
incidents etc., revolve round this central theme. As this Surah has
particularly been addressed to the Jews, many historical events have been cited
from their own traditions to admonish and advise them that their own good lies
in accepting the Guidance revealed to the Holy Prophet. They should, therefore,
be the first to accept it because it was basically]y the same that was revealed
to Prophet Moses (Allah's peace be upon him).

to be or not to be it is light

[usenetposts]

szahtut,

instead of taking issue with the Pope, how about you go and provide a rebuttal
to John Griffin, who wrote the falttering unflattering article about the
Islamic Religion, and its Prophet pbuh.

tinyurl.com/lbuna
Shouldn't you be getting your friends to boycott the internet for that?

[szahtut]

usenetposts napisał:

> szahtut,
>
> instead of taking issue with the Pope, how about you go and provide a
rebuttal
> to John Griffin, who wrote the falttering unflattering article about the
> Islamic Religion, and its Prophet pbuh.
>
> tinyurl.com/lbuna
> Shouldn't you be getting your friends to boycott the internet for that?

thanks for the onformation, but as you know do you havev any evidence?

but i found somrthings else so as to put the light in your mind and mine as
well:
The teachings of the Prophet on how you and I should treat our Non-Muslim
friends and neighbours on a day to day basis as well as how to government
should treat a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state.

"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not
harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who
hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I
shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)

"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who
wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility
greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-
Mawardi)

"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the
fragrance of Paradise." (Bukhari)

to be or not to be freedom

take it easy

[szahtut]

www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism_verses1.htm

[babiana]

There is an old Arab proverb that everything you write or speak should pass
through three gates: Is this kind? Is this necessary? Is this true?

An-Nisa 4: 34 "As to those women On whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill
-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share beds, (and Last) beat
them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of
annoyance): For God is Most High, Great (above you all)"

Al - Baqara 2: 228 "Men, your wives are your tillage. Go into your tillage any
way you want."

"A wife should never refuse herself to her husband even if it is on the saddle
of a camel."

The trouble with Muslims, generally, is that they think the rest of the world is
as dumb as they are.

part 1

[szahtut]

babiana napisała:

thanks for information,
Since I am not anti-islam like others, so I am always looking for the true
without any anger or blind eyes, so that take me too much time to see the
propaganda against Islam even Islam is the only religion believe to others, and
that it is another story.

> An-Nisa 4: 34 "As to those women On whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill
> -conduct, admonish them (first), (next) refuse to share beds, (and Last) beat
> them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means
(of annoyance): For God is Most High, Great (above you all)"

must be like this an-Nisa 4:34 “Men are the protectors and maintainers of
women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they
spend (to support them) from their means. Therefoe the righteous women are
devoutly obedient( to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband’s
absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g; their chastity, their husband’s
property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish
them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them
(lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against
them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great”

Since I am not specialist in araabic languge so yo can see the link then you
tell what is you opinion.
www.islamtomorrow.com/articles/women_treatment.htm
to be or not to be that ?

[babiana]

szahtut napisał:


> to be or not to be that ?
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf16.html

part 2

[szahtut]

babiana napisała:


> Al - Baqara 2: 228 "Men, your wives are your tillage. Go into your tillage any
> way you want."
babiana it is 2:223 not as you mention above!!

Al-Baqarah 2:223: “Your wives are a TILTH for you, so go to your tilth (have
sexual relations with your wives in any manner as long as it is in the vagina
and not in the anus), when or how you will, and send ( good deeds, or ask allah
to bestow upon you pious offspring) before you for your ownselves. And fear
Allah, and know that you are to meet him (in the hearafter), and give good
tidings to the believers (O Muhammad pbuh)”.

www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=860&Option=FatwaId&x=23&y=12

www.understanding-islam.com/rq/q-097.htm
www.themuslimwoman.com/offspring/moreaboutsex.htm
to be or not to be FREEDOM from DUMB Ethics Of Islam Seen From A Christian
Point Of View.

part3

[szahtut]

babiana napisała:

> "A wife should never refuse herself to her husband even if it is on the saddle
> of a camel."

this is ethiquette like all anti-islami website try to give a bad image on
Islamic faith, but I should ask you the origin and evidence.

> The trouble with Muslims, generally, is that they think the rest of the world
is as dumb as they are.

You are wrong, sorry to say that to you because I have lived among a muslims
and I have a muslim friends, and i can tell you what you read on website
ethiquette on muslims are just ignorant on those people and you hate them for
nothing; however, could you prove by one web site which attacks christian faith?

to be or not to be freedom or jackass

[babiana]

szahtut napisał:
You are wrong, sorry to say that to you because I have lived among a muslims
> and I have a muslim friends, and i can tell you what you read on website
> ethiquette on muslims are just ignorant on those people and you hate them for
> nothing; however, could you prove by one web site which attacks christian faith
> ?
> to be or not to be freedom or jackass

You must understand that I am not here to debate anyone's religion and cultural
background, but there are some fundamental human rights. Stoning to death,
denial of freedom to women is surely not a part of the Islamic model of human
rights.
You must agree that the Arab world and its leaders have exploited Islam and its
teachings to further their intolerant beliefs. Islam is used by fanatics who
continue to manipulate true Islam and fuse it with local culture, where women
are still regarded as personal property and second class citizens. If a majority
of Muslims agree with these practices and Sharia law in theirs countries this
is their privilege. But European hospitality reached the peek of tolerance in
this matter.
In contrary to Christianity, Islam has never progressed since the 7th century.
Social norms and customs (oppressive to women, homosexuals and infidels) have
not improved since the middle ages!

Muslim attacks on Christians escalate all over the world. These figures from
Indonesia are shocking. Confronting the gruesome killings (three school girls
found beheaded) you are asking me about anti-Christian websites, and argue
about details in Holy Books while women are killed every day in honour killings,
cannot have cellphones, every second one is illiterate, and cannot vote? In the
light of these facts isn't it a ridiculous question?

And my advice to you regarding your discussion with the Pope is my favourite
English proverb : An idiot's eloquence is silence.

Attacks on Christians by Islamists in Indonesia
Religious conflicts have typically occurred in western New Guinea, Maluku
(particularly Ambon), and Sulawesi. The presence of Muslims in these regions is
largely due to Suharto's transmigrasi plan of population re-distribution.
Conflicts have often occurred because of the aims of radical Islamist
organisations such as Jemaah Islamiah or Laskar Jihad to impose Sharia. The
following list is far from comprehensive:

1998 - 500 Christian churches burned down in Java.

November, 1998 - 22 churches in Jakarta are burned down. 13 Christians killed.

Christmas Day 1998 - 180 homes and stores owned by Christians are destroyed in
Poso, Central Sulawesi.

Easter 2000 - 800 homes and stores owned by Christians are destroyed in Poso,
Central Sulawesi.

May 23, 2000 - Christians fight back against a Muslim mob. 700 people die.

June, 2001 - the Laskar Jihad declares Jihad against Christians. Muslim citizens
are recruited by the thousands to exterminate Christians.

May 28, 2005 - A bomb is exploded in a crowded market in Tentena, killing 28.
This marks the highest death toll due to bombing after the devastating attacks
in Bali. [13]

On October 29 , 2005 three school girls were found beheaded near Poso. The
girls, students at Central Sulawesi Christian Church, were killed by six
unidentified assailants while on their way to class.

Discrimination and persecution in other Arab and Muslim nations

In Saudi Arabia, Christians are arrested and lashed in public for practicing
their faith openly. Bibles and other non-Muslim religious books are captured,
piled up and burned by the religious police of Saudi. No non-Muslims are allowed
to become Saudi citizens. Prayer services by Christians are frequently broken up
by the police and the Christians are arrested and tortured without even allowing
them to be released on bail. People who convert to Christianity can officially
be executed, although this has not in fact been done in many years.

In Egypt, the government does not officially recognise conversions from Islam to
Christianity; because certain interfaith marriages are not allowed either, this
prevents marriages between converts to Christianity and those born in Christian
communities, and also results in the children of Christian converts being
classified as Muslims and given a Muslim education. The government also requires
permits for repairing churches or building new ones, which are often withheld.
Foreign missionaries are allowed in the country only if they restrict their
activities to social improvements and refrain from proselytizing. The Coptic
Pope Shenouda III was internally exiled in 1981 by President Anwar Sadat, who
then chose five Coptic bishops and asked them to choose a new pope. They
refused, and in 1985 President Hosni Mubarak restored Pope Shenouda III, who had
been accused of fomenting interconfessional strife. Particularly in Upper Egypt,
the rise in extremist Islamist groups such as the Gama'at Islamiya during the
1980s was accompanied by attacks on Copts and on Coptic churches; these have
since declined with the decline of those organizations, but still continue. The
police have been accused of siding with the attackers in some of these
cases[14]. Nevertheless, high-ranking government officials in Egypt have
included Copts like Boutros Ghali and his grandson, Boutros Boutros-Ghali.

There have been anti-Christian incidents carried out in areas governed by the
Palestinian Authority. Some claim that this represents a pattern of deliberate
mistreatment by the PA[citation needed]; others hold that these are isolated
incidents that reflect the beliefs of the individuals involved, but not the
society in general. Two American courts, one in Illinois and the other in North
Carolina, accepted the threat of "religious persecution" as grounds for granting
asylum to Evangelical converts fleeing PA territory. There is an ongoing trend
for emigration among Palestinian Christians doubling that of Muslims. The ratio
of Christians among Palestinians went from 18%-20% in 1947 to 13% in 1966 to
2.1% in 1993 [15]. Among the causes there are the insecurity of living under
Israeli rule after the 1967 Six Day War, the comparatively warmer welcome that
Christians have in the Americas and the rise of Islamism in Palestine politics.

Though Iran recognizes Christians as a religious minority (along with Jews and
Zoroastrians) after the Revolution, Muslim converts to Christianity have been
arrested and often executed.

In the Philippines, the Moro Islamic Liberation Front and Abu Sayyaf has
attacked and killed Christians.[16]

Abdul Rahman, a 41-year-old Afghan citizen, was charged in Afghanistan with
rejecting Islam (apostasy), a crime punishable by death under Sharia law. He has
since been released into exile in the West under intense pressure from Western
governments.[17]

Report; Hatred towards non-Muslims:

dc.christianpost.com/article/missions/70/9|14/report.revised.saudi.govt.textbooks.still.demonize.incite.hatred.towards.non-muslims/1.htm

[szahtut]

babiana napisała:

Many thanks for your informations, you have mentioned severals things,
sometimes, I was lost, and I could fell kind of rage against others; after that
I was thinking why such misunderstanding existed.
You know well, that our education in school never told us about others
specially Islamic faith history. Let say 1000 years(I call that BLAK HALL),
those about 1,5 milliard muslims, they didn’t comme like that, Just a click,
let say by SWORD. We know USA tried to bring “ democracy” to IRAK, after 4
years, you can see democracy, freedom, no one accepted that, why? Do you think
those peoples don’t like freedom or peace?

The mean subject I like to start with so as to have a clear idea is TERRORISM,

We can definite TERROR as violence against non military targets (innocent
civilians) for political purposes in the eyes of terrorists. TERROR is an act
deprived of any moral justificqtion, for expamle the case of murders committed
by Hitler or Stalin against mankind (9/11, Casablanca, Madrid, Riyad, London,
and others...).

Nowadays, acts of terrorism, genocide and massacres occur all over the world.
Innocent people are being savagely killed, and countries(with different
histories, cultures and social structures) where communities are being brought
to HATE each other for artificial reasons. Obviously,itis evident that the
fundamental cause is ignoring morality based on tolerance, love, and respect
that religion brings with it.
Consequently, lack of religion, no fear of God and believe that they will not
be called to account in the hereafter. they can act without problems with no
conscience, compassion or morality.
So, who say that something is done in the name of religion, in fact, they
misunderstand that religion and as a result, practice it wrongly. FOR THTA
REASON? IT WOULD BE WRONG TO FORM IDEAS OR ETHEQUETTES ABOUT THAT RELIGION BY
TAKING THOSE PEOPLE AS EXAMPLE. The best way of understanding a religion is to
STUDY ITS DEVINE SOURCE.
ANGER and HATRED are the major sources of evil, bad decissions and would
rationaly conduct themselfs. SO, we can readily inflict all kinds of injustice
on people for whom we feel enmity.
As far as Islam faith is concerned, we should know that Islam's divine source
is the Koran, which is based on concepts of morality, love, compassion,
humility, sacrifice, tolerance and peace.
Muslim (you see I do not use the word islamist, because I believe it is
political word) lives by those principals surely, he will be most polite,
modest, trustworthy and easy to get on with.

to be or not to be it is misunderstanding

[szahtut]

szahtut napisał:

There is no doubt when we hear horror stories on Amnesty about woman in
(islamic, arabic) counties, to closed our mind and to make easy judgment
without recognizing the diversity level that exists within those societies.
News in the media are bad news.
Opression of women is not exclusive to the Islamic faith but it is a false
statement to suggest that equality for women is simply OUR a corrupt idea (I
don’t use Christian faith).
As far as women is western concerned (I don’t use Christian faith). Who we are
to judge others, when 1) we have a small percentage of women in parliament by
comparison to a men. 2) women are still getting paid less for jobs of equal
jobs.
Its would be a geat to urg more women into society and politics ground!!!. And
we need to avoid to combine CULTURE and RELIGION, which I think it is WRONG.
In my point of view, we (christianers or westerners as you like) don’t have a
right to impose culture modifications in others counties
Its depend to the women in the countries to fight for what they believe. And
work together to help all women in all societies.

to be or not to be take it easy

[szahtut]

The history of Islam (BLACK HALL: in west no one tell us the trus anout science
and technology in islamic period!!) is full of a strong record of achievements
in sciences and technology: medicine and science led the world for centuries
while Europe STOPED ADVANCING in the MIDDLE AGES
First of all, have ever ask yourself, who was the first who built the hospital?
www.historyforkids.org/learn/islam/science/medicine/index.htm
www.engr.sjsu.edu/pabacker/history/islam.htm
more about technology in Islam you can take a look inside this link

www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=466
I do agree with you that “Islamic countries”, about 25 % of World total
population, 75% pf world OIL WEALTH, produce less than 6% og its Science.

I think, that muslims leaders who make the policy are to blame for the lack of
sciences and progress, and human right and others things, inreality, in such
countires the Islam must be a DRIVING FORCE and not OBSTACLE.

islamyesterday.com/science/
to be or not to be this is true

[szahtut]

usenetposts
believe me I was shocked when I found those Words;
"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not
harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who
hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I
shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)

"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who
wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility
greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-
Mawardi)

"Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the
fragrance of Paradise." (Bukhari)

That suprised me, even I am not an Anti-islam like you

[babiana]

Next time you try to make such a statement about what Islam is really like try
doing some research and finding out the truth, what Islam really says rather
than giving your own version of what you think Islam says.
To be a damb or nor to be. Better not to be?

[babiana]

"Through propaganda, terrorists seek to communicate a particular message to a
particular target audience. The exact purpose of these communications can vary,
depending upon the message carried out deliberately by individuals or groups
with a view to influencing the opinions or actions of other individuals or
groups for predetermined ends and through psychological manipulations.”

It can be didactic——designed to inform, educate, solicit support (whether
material, financial or spiritual) and ultimately rally the masses
behind the insurgents or terrorists. It can be a vehicle for recruitment——meant
to win new converts to the cause or replenish the ranks of depleted fighters."
www.rand.org/pubs/testimonies/2006/RAND_CT262-1.pdf
to be or not to be I am?