Muzyka Chopina

[republican]

Prosze o eleganckie tlumaczenie na angielski
"Gdyby fiolki i konwalie zamiast pachnac ,grac umialy, bylaby to muzyka Chopina"

[lapidus1]

Nigdy czarowniejszą pieśnią
Nie kusiła Odysa syrena...
Gdyby fiołki i konwalie
Zamiast pachnąć grać umiały,
Byłaby to muzyka Chopena.

(Nonsens - LEOPOLD STAFF-1949r.)

Tlumaczenie +/- doslowne.
Malejaca skala poetyckiej elegancji ;)

Never a more enchanting song
Tempted Odysseus to a siren...
Were violets and lillies-of-the-valley
Instead of scent able to release sound,
That would be the music of Chopin.

If violets and lillies-of-tha-valley, instead of scent were able to give off sound, it would be the music of Chopin.

If violets and lillies-of-tha-valley, could produce(give off) sound instead of scent, it would be the music of Chopin.

[lapidus1]

a, powinno byc lily z jednym L

[republican]

Dzieki, nie wiedzialem kto to napisal.
Wlasnie o ta zrecznosc.
Musimy zrezygnowac z doslownego tlumaczenia.
Sugestie:
1. Orchids zamiast lilies of the valley
2. Odrzucic "pachnac",
3. Grac, to poprostu "play"

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/play
Adverb nr 3

[republican]

Zapomialem dodac ze znalazlem to tutaj

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn-u5Mal6EY&feature=related
Takie te ciarachy tworde, trza by stoc i walic w morde.

[lapidus1]

Zalezy jak rozumiesz 'tlumaczenie' i jak interpretujesz ten wiersz.

Ja przez tlumaczenie rozumiem oddanie istoty ujecia tematu przez autora - przy zachowaniu wiernosci 'duchowi' wypowiedzi - choc bez wiazania sobie kuli doslownosci u nogi.

W tym przypadku mysle, ze wybor kwiatow jest istotny - fiolki i konwalie to kwiaty charakterystyczne dla polskich lasow. Co, jak sadze, nawiazuje do polskosci muzyki Szopena. Gdyby te kwiaty potrafily grac, uslyszalbys polskosc w ich muzyce. Dlatego orchidee nijak mi tu nie pasuja do tej interpretacji i nie moga pretendowac to statusu tlumaczenia ;)

[republican]

Zupelna zgoda, orchidee odpadaja, lilly-of the valley sa niezreczne, pachnac jest wprost nieprzetlumaczalne.
Chcialem "pachnac" opuscic bo konwalie i fiolki to aromat.

[lapidus1]

No wlasnie, kwiaty wydaja won bez zadnego wysilku ze swojej strony.
Dlatego moj wybor padl na 'wydanie dzwieku' co po polsku brzmi dosc mechanicznie (jak dzwon), ale po angielsku 'release sound' wydaje mi sie bardziej poetyckie! Nie uzylbys tego zwrotu w mowie potocznej (po ang.), ale we wierszu z pewnoscia mozna sobie na takie udziwnienie pozwolic, zwlaszcza w zestawieniu z wydawaniem zapachu - i dzieki temu obchodzisz problem z czasownikiem 'pachniec', win-win.

lilies of the vally niezreczne? 1. pachna tak samo; 2. toz to czysta poezja, lilie z doliny!

poza tym, dzieki nim zgadza sie ilosc sylab: Gdyby fiołki i konwalie/Zamiast pachnąć grać umiały (po 8 sylab w kazdym wersie) vs Were violets and lilies-of-the-valley/Instead of scent able to release sound (po 10 sylab)

ostatni wers jest moim kandydatem nr 1 do przerobki.

i zmieniam 'tempted' na 'lured' na poczatku.

[republican]

Niestety "release sound" kojarzy sie z "release gas" z wiadomym skutkiem..

[lapidus1]

Mowimy o zapachu. Neutralnie.
Co sie dzieje kiedy musniesz, nadepniesz, potrzesz, zmiazdzysz etc wonne ziola/kwiaty/liscie ...
Jaki mamy wybor?
give out, produce, release, exude, give off, emit ,,, +garsc innych czasownikow
scent/fragrance/perfume/aroma

[republican]

A dlaczego nie po prostu "smell"?
Rose by any other name would smell as sweet

[lapidus1]

To zaproponuj caly wers i zobaczymy jak to brzmi.

gdyby kwiaty 'zamiast pachniec grac umialy'
Ja odbieram pachniecie w tym kontekscie jako cos co kwiaty aktywnie 'robia' i to probuje przekazac. (wiecej niz: they smell nice) Syntaktyczna roznica?

[republican]

lapidus1 napisał:

> To zaproponuj caly wers i zobaczymy jak to brzmi.
>
Two versions
1. If violets and valley lilies, instead of smelling knew how to play, it would be the music of Chopin.
2. If violets and valley lilies, knew how to play, it would be the music of Chopin.

For valley lilies see full version of Meriam-Webster

Any better ideas?

[lapidus1]

'valley lilies' > in the UK this wouldn't be recognised as a name of any particular flower, let alone lilies of the valley as per the original poem
'instead of smelling' > poor language
'knew how to play' > it's about being capable of playing, not knowledge (as in having knowledge) > 'were able to/could' would be a better choice here imo
play > play what? games, a role, cards, a tune, an instrument, play about?

krotko mowiac grzeszysz kalką jezykową

it > brakuje rzeczownika do ktorego 'it' sie odnosi
eg: If I knew how to play, it would be the music of Chopin. > If I knew how to play, I'd play....
...lilies, knew how to play, it.... > wrong use of a comma

I expect my comments will go down like a lead balloon. Right?

I've given you my suggestions already. I think I'm done. I wish you had recognised my great skill and talent as a translator... oh well ;)

[republican]

Well, I askeed for elegant translation, instead of that I received awkward attempts of verbatim translation and ironic criticism so typical of most of the Poles I came in contact with.
lapidus1 napisał:

> 'valley lilies' > in the UK this wouldn't be recognised as a name of any pa
> rticular flower, let alone lilies of the valley as per the original poem
*No doubt you know what licentia poetica means*
> 'instead of smelling' > poor language
* I pointed it out above*
> 'knew how to play' > it's about being capable of playing, not knowle
> dge (as in having knowledge) > 'were able to/could' would be a better choic
> e here imo
*grac umialy* points to capability not virtuoso play.
> play > play what? games, a role, cards, a tune, an instrument, play about?
"grac co Piano, tennis Poker ??
>
> krotko mowiac grzeszysz kalką jezykową
* I would rather ignore this remark*
> it > brakuje rzeczownika do ktorego 'it' sie odnosi
> eg: If I knew how to play, it would be the music of Chopin. > If I knew how
> to play, I'd play....
> ...lilies, knew how to play, it.... > wrong use of a comma
>
> I expect my comments will go down like a lead balloon. Right?
*Some of them*
*> I've given you my suggestions already. I think I'm done. I wish you had recogni
> sed my great skill and talent as a translator... oh well ;)
>
*Like your sense of humor, ooops HUMOUR in UK*

not interested in making personal comments

[lapidus1]

No prizes for guessing the response.
Although you have surprised me by bringing national characteristics and your social network into it. I would have thought they are irrelevant.

I must admit that I did delete a preamble to my criticism and, to my regret, forgot to go back to replace it with a more considered wording. Not that it would have made that much difference, but it would have forewarned you about what was coming. Sorry about that.

My criticism is directed purely at your choice of words and I tried to be constructive by explaining my reasoning throughout the thread. Your English is much better than is apparent from your translation, and imo you didn't do the poem any justice by: ignoring (hidden)sentence structure/syntax (re: play,) and opting for - by your own admission - woefully inadequate vocabulary (re: smell). Still, no point flogging a dead horse (need I say: the topic?)

I do wish someone else felt like tackling these few lines from the poem. It would be interesting to see what others come up with. My contribution was freely offered and I don't mind if it doesn't appeal to you. You express a touch of frustration at the quality of response on your thread - well, it's a forum, I won't patronise you by explaining how it works.

Actually, like you, I used to post a lot on this forum about 5 years ago (under a different nick) but for all that frequency we never crossed keyboards or even commented on each other's contribution. Intuition, eh?

Out of interest, which comment do you think was ironic?

Finally, please do not hold me responsible for British English spelling (being faintly ironic here if that's ok).

[republican]

I played a cruel joke by using Google translation services for which I owe you an apology.
I was frustrated by my inability to elegantly translate this simple sentence.
I am afraid that it is simply impossible.
As you guessed I live in GMT-5 time zone.
My best regards and thanks for the constructive critisim.
R

[lapidus1]

Haha! Now you're telling me! :D
We can't match L.Staff for brevity, but I don't buy 'impossible'.
Those lines follow me around now, grrr.
Best wishes,
(Mrs)L

[republican]

lapidus1 napisał:

> Haha! Now you're telling me! :D
> We can't match L.Staff for brevity, but I don't buy 'impossible'.
> Those lines follow me around now, grrr.
> Best wishes,
> (Mrs)L
Now YOU are telling me about yourself.
It is so intriguing to get to know thee.
We need to share a glass of wine to talk about Staff, Chopin ..
What I do is far removed from poetry and music.
I do not get to meet fascinating people every day.
PS
Republican is my ironic nick, I am a liberal and Democrat.
Czesc
>

[lapidus1]

Steady on, Republican.
You've gone all dreamy there for a moment.
Besides, Mr L might have something to say about this cosy scene you painted.
And we wouldn't want to upset him, would we?
;)

[republican]

lapidus1 napisał:

> Steady on, Republican.
> You've gone all dreamy there for a moment.
> Besides, Mr L might have something to say about this cosy scene you painted.
> And we wouldn't want to upset him, would we?
> ;)
>
How very British, with the stiff upper lip.
Does he really exist?

[republican]

republican napisał:

> lapidus1 napisał:
>
> > Steady on, Republican.
> > You've gone all dreamy there for a moment.
> > Besides, Mr L might have something to say about this cosy scene you paint
> ed.
> > And we wouldn't want to upset him, would we?
> > ;)
> >
> How very British, with the stiff upper lip.
> Does he really exist?
>
PS
What was your maiden nick?

[lapidus1]

Yes, he really does exist.

As for my maiden nick, I was using it on here around 2005/2006 time. The forum was much livelier then, with lots of off-topic chats, banter and generally more traffic. I was sort of on the periphery of banter, but it was still fun + I clocked up over 600 posts, ekhm, being helpful (or not). I don't particularly want to resurrect that nick, it belongs in the past.

I undestand your unease. There's so much smoke and mirrors on the internet, you have to keep a healthy distance and take things with a pinch of salt - or twenty. My pet hate on this kind of forum is that it's all too easy for people to cross the line and act as if anonymity gave them the right to be insulting towards people they know little about.

The forum has changed since the 'old days' + I thought if I post something now I'd keep it to the point - fairly minimalist ie lakoniczne -> lapidarne odpowiedzi, nie zawierający wielu słów; zwięzłe, treściwe. Lapidus = oszczędny w słowach; krótki, zwięzły, lapidarny. That's the idea behind the nick + my English Only voice (and look how well it's working out ;). If people take it to be male it doesn't bother me, I can always put them right if I want to.

I really hope this clears things up.

[republican]

Enchante

[mudzyn7]

us.

[mudzyn7]

If only Violets, and Lilly of the Valley cold sing, their song would be Chopin.

[mudzyn7]

If only Violets, and Lilly of the Valley could sing, their song would be Chopin.

[mudzyn7]

If only Violets, and Lilly of the Valley could sing as much as they can smell, their song would be a music of Chopin.