I'm starting to get a bit fed up with this govmt..

[usenetposts]

... they don't seem to deliver anything but entertainment, but I can get that
cheaper at the expense of other countries' taxpayers.

[b00g13]

It's all beacause you are watching it from wrong perspective (good perspective
starts around 1,500 miles from Warsaw).

[minimus]

Why would you expect anything but entertainment? Thats what clowns do.

There's more to them than entertainment!

[ianek70]

usenetposts napisał:

> ... they don't seem to deliver anything but entertainment, but I can get that
> cheaper at the expense of other countries' taxpayers.

There's not just entertainment to be had, there's outrage and indignation at
their actions, inaction, stupidity, cynicism and hypocrisy.
Although it is mostly quite funny.

[firemouse]

Welcome to the red pill world.

But you are wrong, they can deliver something more than entertainment.
Unfortunately this is total state control over everything, so we are suddendly
100 years back. It ain't work. But they don't know it.

[ejmarkow]

It just might be wise to stay with the better of the worst for now until
something more attractive than the current pool of candidates becomes
available. It all depends on what you consider to be the best. Take your pick:
Today's government of conservative circus jugglers (PiS-Sam-LPR), or deal with
former communist socialist leftist liberals (SLD), or neo-conservative pseudo-
communist centrist liberals (PO). The economy and financial markets in Poland
seem resilient enough to accomodate even a stoned illiterate drunk to run the
office of presidency. Or how about a simpleton like Chancey Gardner from 'Being
There'?

There were enough scandals when SLD was in power, and just take a look at what
the neo-conservatives in the USA are doing to that country? Corruption and war?
No thanks. It's not impressive, and even slightly worse than what we are
dealing with in the current government in Poland. It's a lose-lose situation.
At least on a positive note, the politics in Poland are now entertaining, and
the press has something to write about. Time to eat my vegetables.

[marimax]

If you don't like living in Poland you can always go back to yoour liberal,
politicaly correct countries where you can watch never ending faggot's marches,
smoke some pot, shoot some heroin

Why are you obsessed with faggots? :-)

[ianek70]

marimax napisał:

> If you don't like living in Poland you can always go back to yoour liberal,
> politicaly correct countries where you can watch never ending faggot's
marches,
> smoke some pot, shoot some heroin

So why don't you fuck off back to Poland if you don't like living in the real
world?
And why are you constantly moaning about faggots? Did one break your heart?

[chris-joe]

And the Jews, marimax, you forgot the Jews! ))

Eugene,

[firemouse]

If you call any of the PiS - Samoobrona - LPR conservatives, than the world
turns upside down

As the wikipedia says

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative
"To a conservative, the goal of change is less important than the insistence
that change be effected with a respect for the rule of law and traditions of
society."

Now, I can't fit it with the changes in law to ensure election of such a
constitutional tribunal, which would gladly pass all the absurds which bore in
the twins and their goonies heads.

For the Sun Tan Andrew this description is just as far from reality as it only
could be. Let me not discuss the Roman the Glorious case.

SLD was/is of course involved in lots of scandals, becuase the state /politics
activity is not set apart from the economy/commerce in personal terms, and the
first-to-do thing for any government should be sale of all state owned companies
except of a very few (energy lines, transit pipelines) to cut off the lucrative
positions for party members.

On the other hand, the economy is to some extend independent from the politics
in legal terms (we need to observe the international treaties, God thanks) so in
reality as long as the current chieftain does not smoke too much dope and goes
for the 20% budget deficit we are more less safe. I think that such a scenario
is indeed not possible, because if we'd do so, Zloty would fall immediately, and
this means increase in the foreign debt, thus despite the here-and-there barking
of populists the maneouvre space is very narrow.

This is time for a fundamental change in financial politics, but no one dares to
touch it. Too much incentives are now incorporated into the system to have one
wanting to change it.

[ejmarkow]

Firemouse,

You may perform countless searches on the net by typing in "PiS Conservative"
and this will result with numerous credible sources classifying Kaczyński's PiS
(Law and Justice) party as the following:

- "Conservative"
- "Conservative Right"
- "Catholic Conservative"

LPR and Samobroona came up with:

- "ultra Catholic and nationalist"
- "Right wing nationalist"

PO is often decribed as:

- "Conservative Center-Right"
- "Conservative Free-Market"
- "Neo-Conservative"

These aren't 'my' labels. They are conferred upon by reputable political
analysts, governmental agencies, and publications.

Keep in mind, PiS is calling the shots, while Samobroona and LPR are keeping
the coalition glued together by promised political appointments for their
members.

I would personally classify PiS as: Conservative Catholic Right. Although they
are allied with LPR and Samo, they still embrace their own distinct political
philosophy as in any other party.

Of course, one can interpret some of these phrases (right - center -left) in
many ways.

Cheers.

[ejmarkow]

I forgot to add "liberal" to PO and SLD. This is evident from many sources as
well.

[firemouse]

ejmarkow napisał:

> I forgot to add "liberal" to PO and SLD. This is evident from many sources as
> well.

Ha ha ha. If they are so liberal and the others "conservative" then where is
return of property stolen by the PRL after the war to the hands of legitimate
owners?

No offence Eugene, I just wonder who sits at these sources and elaborates labels...

[ejmarkow]

firemouse napisał:

> ...I just wonder who sits at these sources and elaborates labels...

Try a search in google, and most of these political labels come from the
authors of newspaper articles themselves. I also got some of them from
the "Economist" and "Forbes".

Here is a good excercise: Let's all give our view as to how these parties
should be classified.

Here's my take:

PiS: Conservative Catholic Right
PO: Neo-Conservative Liberal Center Free-Market
SLD: Communist-Socialist Liberal Left
Samobroona: Populist-Nationalist Right
LPR: Ultra-Catholic Far-Right Nationalist


Cheers.

Labels

[ianek70]

ejmarkow napisał:

> Here is a good excercise: Let's all give our view as to how these parties
> should be classified.

Good idea.
Everyone has their own personal, subjective classifications for political
parties or groups, especially the ones they don't agree with. Ultra-leftists
tend to call everyone else "fascists", and wacky right-wing funsters like
Korwin-Mikke claim that the 99.5% of the population who laugh at them are
all "communists".
But there are generally accepted definitions of liberal, conservative, left,
right, etc. These may vary within different political cultures, but for the
sake of clarity you use these terms. In the same way, you may not agree with
the dictionary definition of "table", but when discussing furniture it's not a
good idea to invent your own word. Idealists can say "so-called table" or
otherwise qualify it, but communication is based on common frames of reference.


> PiS: Conservative Catholic Right
OK

> PO: Neo-Conservative Liberal Center Free-Market
From a British perspective, they're like one of the less-evil wings of the Tory
party. "Liberal" in the economic sense is generally called "conservative" in
the UK. So for me, objectively "moderate conservatives", subjectively "a bunch
of Tories" ('Tory' has very negative connotations in Scotland, particularly
since Thatcher).

> SLD: Communist-Socialist Liberal Left
Objectively "centre left", subjectively "corrupt pseudo-leftist careerists",
although it's hard to say since they don't seem to have any policies or ideas.

> Samobroona: Populist-Nationalist Right
Objectively "populist sheepshaggers", but they claim to have left-wing
policies, they do a lot of nationalism, and the Leper can either praise or damn
the PRL, depending who he wants to criticise, and he never has any ideas of his
own, either leftist or rightist, so subjectively I'd categorise them as "other"
or "mainly crooks".

> LPR: Ultra-Catholic Far-Right Nationalist
Objectively I'd agree with that, subjectively I'd call them "cynical
hypocritical statue-worshipping bigoted nazi scum and half of them are lawyers
too".

Labels - good idea!

[firemouse]

I suggest the following (political position description / motto):

PiS - Socialist / Take It All
PO - Liberal Center / We Know Everything Better
SLD - Social Democratic / It's All About Money
Samoobrona - Left Populist / Greed Is Good
LPR - Social Nationalists / Wake Up Poland

[firemouse]

Hey, I didn't say these are _your_ labels. They are just put to discredit these
parties in eyes of an average voter. Everybody knows that calling a politician
"right wing" or "conservative" or (OMG!) "Catholic" spreads fear in a heart of a
dutiful vote holder.

But the case is, all these parties (including PO) are far from the right wing or
conservative ideas. They are just purely socialist, maybe with the exception of
PO which is probably somewhere in the center.

I dare to say that SLD was more right wing that PiS, albeit considering their
roots and unclear connections with some criminals and the scandals which surface
recently, I wouldn't vote for them even if they would promise zero rate income tax.

I'm simply looking at economy and social policy and this decides where I put the
party.

We had in Poland a good description of "atheist socialists" (bezbozna lewica -
say SLD) and "deist socialists" (pobozna lewica - say UW). For me, PiS are deist
socialists. Like almost everybody else in the parliament. Can't decide about PO
really (left or center), but I am sure they are no conservatives.

[ja_karola]

ejmarkow napisał:
> Or how about a simpleton like Chancey Gardner from 'Being There'?

> There were enough scandals when SLD was in power, and just take a look at what
> the neo-conservatives in the USA are doing to that country? Corruption and war?

Chancey Gardener!?! Eugene, did you see the Peter Sellers movie or are you
referring to the book?

As for the Polish government, I think that its entertainment value is still
better than that of a suspense/thriller book. Allistair McClean would not have
invented a better story about a convicted murderer becoming director of a Swiss
Bank and a trustworthy treasurer of post communist fortunes. Pursued by Interpol
and then pardoned by president Kwasniewski. The whole story appeared in a Swiss
weekly Facts in December 2005 and was translated in the Polish weekly Forum.
It’s worthy of a movie script. There were many commentaries about it in the
Polish press. Here are some of them:

www.wprost.pl/ar/?O=83699
www.wprost.pl/ar/?O=85649
www.wprost.pl/ar/?O=89382
www.warsawvoice.pl/view/11292

[ejmarkow]

ja_karola napisała:

> ejmarkow napisał:
> > Or how about a simpleton like Chancey Gardner from 'Being There'?

> Chancey Gardener!?! Eugene, did you see the Peter Sellers movie or are you
> referring to the book?

The film 'Being There' with Peter Sellers. Excellent story. Most countries
could use such a character in politics. A man of few words whose audience reads
in between every fine line in detail.

[ja_karola]

His words of wisdom were the best! I have the book, but it’s in Polish. Here’s
what Gardner had to say to the president about the economy:

- W ogrodzie – przemowil wreszcie – zle i dobre okresy nastepuja po sobie. Po
wiosnie i lecie nadchodzi jesien i zima, a potem znow wiosna i lato. Poki jednak
korzenie sa zdrowe, nie ma powodu do zmartwien, bo wszystko jest i bedzie dobrze.

(President's reply

- Musze przyznac, panie O’Grodnick, ze jest to najbardziej pokrzepiajaca i
optymistyczna opinia, jaka slyszalem od bardzo, bardzo dawna. […] Nasz system
ekonomiczny, jesli spojrzec nan dlugodystansowo, jest rownie stabilny i
racjonalny jak swiat przyrody i dlatego nie powinnismy sie lekac.