English cultural references

[varsovian]

A few translators I'm working with - all cultured people with superb English -
have come to the realisation that they need to learn a whole load of English
cultural references in order to give their linguistic knowledge more 'edge'.

But where do I start?

Even mapping out the headings is difficult, and I certainly don't want to go
into any depth at all.

Any suggestions as to main subject areas?

[mafketis]

As a translator myself (written Polish to American/'International' English. I
have some questions and suggestions.

Questions:
What do you mean by 'cultural references'? Pop culture? Culture in the
anthropological sense? High culture?

What kind of English? From my personal experience Americans and Brits share a
lot of cultural references but there's just as much that they don't share.

What kind of translation? What kind of material? What direction P>E or E>P for
what purpose? For what kind of reader?

What do you mean by 'edge'?

The better you can answer that question, the more help people are likely to be.

Suggestions (to the translators in question).

Specialize - past a certain level a translator needs to specialize in a
particular standard. For Poland this means either specifically British Isles vs
NAmerica vs 'Euro-International' (I'm not going to define that last). This also
means being willing to turn down work you know you're not qualified for (not
something Polish translators are anxious to do IME).

Get some conscious knowledge of your own culture and language - You don't expect
a fish to discover water. You'll be able to take more in and make better use of
foreign cultural references if you have some concscious knowledge of cultural
references in your own culture (what sort of thing will have what sort of
meaning for what sort of person). Participating as a native member of a culture
and being highly educated is not the same thing as having conscious knowledge of
a culture.
Questions to think about: What kind of things are funny to Polish people? What
kinds of things are funny to Americans? or Brits? There are lots of things that
will be funny to one or two of those three groups but not all three.
What kind of attitudes to Polish people have toward their families? Their work
environment? Compare and contrast that with Anglophone (and specifically British
or American) attitudes (IME all three tend to differ to a large degree).

The worst thing you can do is mass consumption of Anglophone popular culture
without giving those questions some consideration.

I'd say feel free to send them here as well with specific questions but it's not
my forum.

[varsovian]

Perhaps I should have been a little more specific ...
As legal translators, there's no problem.
The problem is on a personal interaction level, where they are excellent
communicators in English, but not having spent important parts of their lives
in England they have gapping holes in their knowledge about the mass of
knowledge/cultural references common to most educated English adults of their
age bracket.
Obviously, the scope of cultural references is simply vast, and I have to cut
it down somehow for it to be manageable from a teaching and learning point of
view.
Being English, I have to limit myself to English cultural references - certain
aspects of American culture are utterly alien and unknown to me.

To give you some idea, here's my opening shot:
References from 'popular' history
- King Canute 'holding back the tide'
- Robin Hood 'robbing the rich to pay the poor' (don't get the wording wrong)
- Walter Raleigh, cloak 'n puddle thing
- Viking approach to holidays - "I'm partial to the odd bit of rape and
pillaging myself"
- Monty Python - "What have the Romans (Americans/EU etc) ever done for us?"
- British Empire - knowing in 20 words what most educated Brits think (we went
round the world, met interesting peopple ... and killed them)
- Agincourt (suitably mispronounced) - archers and the 2-finger salute
- Bonnie Prince Charlie (knowing he existed, failed and was part Polish)
- The Somme (refers to any muddy field, esp. rugby)
- WWI was the big war and is the focus of Poppy Day commemorations
- "The Dunkirk spirit" (you can see the effect of wartime propaganda ...)
- complete lack of knowledge about the American Revolution (wonder why!)
- the Thin Red Line (still important notion - underinvest in the military, have
ridiculous expectations)
- the Stiff Upper Lip (upper-class English coolness under pressure, wonderful
for parodying)
- Zulus (you've seen the films ...)
- Dambusters, The Great Escape (knowing how to hum the music properly)
- to be an English military hero, you have to die in battle: Wolfe, Nelson,
Gordon. Wellington buggered it up by surviving Waterloo and going on to be a
repressive Prime Minister.
- denying Wellington's quote that Waterloo was won on the playing fields of
Eton

[varsovian]

damn ... gaping (I mudst learn to proofread my own work)

[varsovian]

A handful of quotes from Shakespeare - anybody wanting to give me a few, in
this winter of our discontent?
Don't overdo it - Brits aren't good at literature, by and large.
References to cult TV programmes/books. Come on, this is Peter and Jane stuff!

[ianek70]

They should watch a lot of telly, a surprising amount of specifically British
cultural references are either from TV or gleaned therefrom (especially old
telly when there was only 3 or 4 channels and the references were more
universal - make them watch Dr Who, Porridge, the Goodies etc on DVD and TOTP2
on kablówka).
A slender second-hand paperback of British history, and a slightly thicker
paperback parodying British history (there's a lot of them, full of puns and
deliberate misquotations, good practice for playing with the real
facts'n'figures).

And as translators they should have a feeling for the text (instinctual, not
romantic).
Like when you're translating a Polish text, and you find something that seems
unfunny, stupid and pointless when you're expecting a few words of brilliance,
then it's probably a subtle reference to something you have to ask a Pole about.
And if it doesn't stand out then it's too subtle and you can ignore it.

And with untranslatable idioms, don't waste time trying to translate them.
Because they're untranslatable, you see. Just recognise that it's an idiom, or
a bit of slang, poetic metaphor, cultural reference, etc, and stick one in
later to reflect the flavour of the text.

There's a tendency for amateur translators when they find a hat-related idiom,
for example, to translate it with another hat-related idiom which means nothing
in the context and annoys the reader.

[varsovian]

Don't get me wrong - my colleagues are legal translators ... powers of attorney
and contracts etc, no space for Bill Oddie there!

[mafketis]

Thanks for more info. Now, one more question: In what capacity are you trying to
give them this knowledge, colleague? friend? teacher? (or some combination?)

If you're talking about a class setting, then I'd suggesting organizing things
in overlapping categories (and making it clear that you'll be missing things and
adding stuff as it occurs to you).

First, preliminary categories like (based on a quick glance at your preliminary
list)

royalty : who was/wasn't king/queen of note and why?

military history : possibly several subcategories here (victories, losses, WWII,
empire, military lore...)

historical figures : fictional / non-fictional

social foibles : patterns of behavior, manners, hangups etc

misc / running : things don't fit anywhere else or that come up in the course of
work/whatever

Also, I'd add (from experience of Brits I've known)

school system : including bullying, the practice occurs in Polish schools but
there's no generally accepted term for 'bully' or 'bullying'

drinking culture : (very different from that in Poland)

taboo topics : what _not_ to say, how to recognize when you've said something
you shouldn't and what to do about it


If you're talking about a non-class setting, then you might add in the
occasional explanatory material "We have lots of sayings aobut different kings
and queens, this is about X who Y'd". "This is another reference to royalty, X
did Y so we say Z."

[varsovian]

Ad hoc teaching from a booklet I'll be putting together(I was an experienced
classroom teacher in the UK, by the way - this isn't formal teaching)
Non-international pop music, the BBC, a few TV programmes and personalities,
usable Biblical quotes from the King James Bible, Christmas things (Queen,
crackers, turkey sandwiches), drinking, behaviour, state and private schools,
Ps and Qs ... I'm getting there.

[varsovian]

Inverted snobbery (I went to the university of life ...)
Sporting disasters (they are legion)

[varsovian]

A smattering of proverbs:
"a friend in need is a pain in the neck"

[varsovian]

>Rozsypała się sól - będzie kłótnia.
>Rozsypał się cukier - na zgodę.
>Rozsypała się kokaina - będą wizje.
>Upadł widelec - ktoś przyjdzie.
>Upadło mydło - oczekuj nieoczekiwanego.
>Jaskółki nisko latają - będzie deszcz.
>Krowy nisko latają - rozsypała się kokaina.
>Pękło lustro - będzie nieszczęście.
>Pękł rozporek - będzie wstyd. Mniejszy lub większy...
>Pękła prezerwatywa - lepiej, żeby pękło lustro.
>Swędzi nos - będzie pijaństwo.
>Swędzi dupa - mydło upadło....

sociolinguistics

[waldek1610]

varsovian napisał:

> A few translators I'm working with - all cultured people with superb English -
> have come to the realisation that they need to learn a whole load of English
> cultural references in order to give their linguistic knowledge more 'edge'.
>
> But where do I start?

Well, what you propably infering to is called sociolinguistics. At few
occassions I had similar discussions with Poles living in Poland who, barely
visited USA or UK for few weeks, and claimed that they master english language,
and that understanding the anglo-saxon pshyche is not necessery to comunicate
in english efficiently....Which I believe to be complete false.

I guess everyone here knows what I'm talking about, just as it is hard to
understand Polish psyche without knowing major historical events that have
shaped it, it is impossible to master english language not knowing the cultural
fframework and geo-politics that have shaped British people.


>
> Even mapping out the headings is difficult, and I certainly don't want to go
> into any depth at all.
>
> Any suggestions as to main subject areas?