The visa thing -- help me out.

[nebber]

Hi, everyone. I've got 3 weeks until the end of my free 3 months in the
country, and just wanted to get some advice on how to stay longer. I've heard
conflicting information.

Someone told me if I cross the border, my 3 months reset. One website said
just stay and don't get anything, and when I leave, they make me pay for the
extended visa on the spot. Others said I had to apply for the visa, but that
the forms would be in Polish.

Don't need to work here, just to extend the visiting visa. A year would be
great, but 6 months will do. Oh, and I'm American, I don't know if that's
important or not.

I figured this would be the best place to ask. Thanks in advance.

[usenetposts]

You need to talk to the Section for Foreigners of The Citizens Department of
The Wojewodship Council: 00-263 Warszawa, ul. Dluga 5, tel.: [phone].
probably you will find someone who can help you with the forms in English.

[asiaasia1]

Hello,

My partner had similar problem.
It was a very painful experience for both of us.

According to the Straż Graniczna (Border Guards?), the 3 months will not reset,
if you just cross the Polish border.
My boyfriend had a 3 days trip to Slovakia with my brother and it did not help
at all.

You should apply for Polish visa no longer than 45 days, after you crossed the
Polish border for the first time.

Work permit for American citizens( and generally non-EU citizens) is issued by
Wojewodzki Urzad Pracy, so the"Immigration Office" on Długa 5 and any kind of
visa has nothing to do with it.

All these "immigration officers" that we met there ( on Długa 5 )are not very
professional.
They are giving false information. Be careful! Especially, this older lady,
secretary, who is supposed to give you accurate information.Other ladies we met
there are young and pretty, that's all. I still cannot figure out how they got
a job there, while we have 18 percent unemploymentrate here.

Secretary adviced my boyfriend to go to Slovakia for a few days and then to
come back so his 90 days would have been reseted and he could have extended his
stay here.
Well...the Border Guards had different opinion on this subject. I called them a
few times and went to seek for advice in their office on Aleja Niepodległości
to make sure who is wrong.

Only one hope is that you will meet some /friendly/ cool border guards, who
will be impressed by your US passport and will let you go without stupid
questions...

I'm sorry that I couldn't help you too much.

[nebber]

Thanks for all the input, I guess I should be a little worried, then.

So, if I don't get an extension, what happens if I don't cross any borders, and
just stay here until I'm ready to leave? Do only border officers concern
themselves with making sure people past their 3-month visa stay out, or would I
have to worry about anyone else checking up on me and booting me out?

[asiaasia1]

I think some border officers may overlooked the fact that you stayed here
longer than 90 days.

I do not think that anybody else ( police, city guards )will have a problem
with that. You can still use your passport as your ID.

[asiaasia1]

overlook.

[nebber]

interesting. I guess I may have to confine my summer travels to Poland--of
course, there is lots of beautiful stuff to see here.

I've left a message with Consul Scott, so I'll see what can be done. Thanks
again for the info.

[asiaasia1]

no problem.

all those regulations are only to make people's lives more complicated...
i really don't know,why immigration rules here are so unfair for american
citizens. i guess me and my boyfriend had a really bad luck, but still, people
in these institutions should be more competent and well informed,before thay
will give legal advice to anybody else.

good luck!i hope all will go well...

[nebber]

Talked with the consulate, Mr. Scott passed me on to a lady named Anna, who gave
me the rundown on the laws.

She said I probably didn't have any 'official' reasons to recieve the temporary
residency card (no marriage, no business, no school, etc), but to have my
girlfriend talk with the people at Długa 5 and see if they can help us in the
situation, or find any other way for me to stay.

As far as just staying, she recommended against it. She said on a case-by-case
basis, overstaying your 3-month visa can lead to a fine, proportional to the
overstay, and the potential to be placed on a list of 'unwelcome visitors',
possibly barring me out of the country for a period. And there's no way of
finding out how much the fines will be or how long until you're 'listed', and
asking any border/immigration people about this will draw attention to the fact
that you intend to break their immigration laws.

So, finally, the border crossings. She couldn't recommend it, but said that the
crossings can, in fact, reset your 90 days, as there are no laws dictating how
many 90-day visas you can have in a row, or in a year, or whatever. But, as you
found out, border guards may think of this differently. She said, basically, if
the guards see several close-to-90-day stays in a row, they can conclude you are
trying to circumvent the immigration laws and can refuse entry for this reason.

Well, 3 more months past my current 90 days will get me to when my girlfriend
graduates and we can head somewhere else. So if I can't get a residency card, I
think we're going to Slovakia in two weeks, and I'll get my stamp, and not push
things past the next stay.

[asiaasia1]

Thanks for the info,
Good luck !

[usenetposts]

Nebber, just to stop you panicking, remember that if the worst comes to the
worst you can both go to the UK without visas.

After hanging around in England for a while writing poetry, you can re-enter
for another visit to Poland on the same basis as the first time you came.

That's a different matter to bed-and-breakfasting entries, which can either
work or not work, but if they work anywhere it will be on the foot border with
the Czech Republic inside the town of Cieszyn - not the main one by the town,
but the one in the middle of town on the bridge over the river Olza. You walk
in to the Czech Rep side ("Cesky Tesin") with your girlfiend, then both walk
back out again after you have had an evening meal in the Hotel there opposite
the railway line (There's a good Tex Mex menu and it's dirt cheap)

You then walk back into Poland and get the stamp, and you will even have the
hotel card for Orbis Halny in Polish in your pocket showing that that's where
you intended to spend the night. You say, in case of problems, that you left
most of your money in the hotel, your car in the carpark on the Polish side,
etc etc etc. They will not want a major fuss kicked up as they are low level,
relatively friendly border guards doing a tourist interface job, and your
chances of having a stamped passport passed back to you are higher than
anywhere else in this country.

Let us know how you get on!

[asiaasia1]

Sorry for making you feel worried.
I only wanted to warn you...

Your girlfirend must be very patient in Długa, but finally, everything will
work out !!!

Good luck,

[nebber]

Why, the border town of Cieszyn sounds lovely. I bet it will look wonderful
this time of spring, and boy do I ever love some good tex-mex. I love strolls
over bridges, and if they would like to stamp my passport, it would just be the
end to a perfect evening.

Told about this plan, my girlfriend just said she's not going to stay at a
200-zloty hotel in her own country. Hmm. Is the keycard, in fact, integral to
this plan?

[usenetposts]

nebber napisał:

> Why, the border town of Cieszyn sounds lovely. I bet it will look wonderful
> this time of spring, and boy do I ever love some good tex-mex. I love strolls
> over bridges, and if they would like to stamp my passport, it would just be
the
> end to a perfect evening.
>
> Told about this plan, my girlfriend just said she's not going to stay at a
> 200-zloty hotel in her own country. Hmm. Is the keycard, in fact, integral to
> this plan?

I think it would help matters to show that you are staying in a hotel on the
Polish side, and either a key or the hotel card would do that. The hotel on the
Czech side of Cieszyn is about half the price and there are motels around, but
I don't think that it would serve your purpose as well, and the difference is
not big. You've gota sleep somewhere and you don't want to spoil the ship for a
happorth of tar.

The Hotel Orbis Halny is what I would call a mid-priced hotel. It is a bit like
the Novotel not far from the airport, the novotel in Wroclaw, Hotel Aria in
Sosnowiec or the Wanda Hotel in Krakow. It certainly would not surprise me to
learn that the same bod was responsible for the architecture in all the above.

If there is an issue with the price I know someone who used to work in the
Halny and may be able to wangle a discount.

[nebber]

It wasn't so much a matter of price as her pride over the matter. As a
compromise, it was easy to talk her into staying at the castle converted into a
hotel 5 km away at Kończyce Małe. That way it wasn't a generic hotel and a
special treat. We'll pick up our keys and reciepts and such on the way.

[usenetposts]

Good idea. In fact, I like the castle idea even better than the Halny. It has
more of a touristy feel to it, and no-one wants to get in the way of bona-fide
tourists.

The off the cuff remark "I sometimes write for an American tourist magazine"
might also help a bit if the worst happens, as long as you don't labour it.

[nasza_maggie]

Well you've left it a bit too late.
You should have applied for an extension already. If you want to go abroad, you
can only count on the good will of the immigration officers to let you back in.
No guarantees.

[asiaasia1]

Hi,

You can also ask in American Embassy in Warsaw,American Citizens Services.
Please,before you speak to Polsih staff there (frustrated and not very
competent ladies),ask first to speak to Consul(Mr Scott...).He will help.
Good luck !!!

[asiaasia1]

Oh I forgot, and the forms are in English too,just have to ask for them, so
don't worry...

good luck !!!

[sobieski010]

I find the staff in Długa 5 extremely helpful, friendly and very professional -
at least in the EU section.
I lost my residence card last year October, was helped with a smile (they even
remembered my name, although that might be not so good...), got a new card in
2,5 weeks' time. And never had to wait longer as 5 minutes.

As for making it difficult form people to enter the country - well... what does
the average Pole have to go through to get admitted into the States - not to
speak about visa extensions, work permits...

Since the US are not a part of the EU, you have to join the rest of the queue...

[asiaasia1]

EU section is at the first floor and you get the first class treatment there
probably...

In any other country, I could have sued the person who was supposed to give me
information and ,intentionally or not,she gave me false info . It was very
important to know, if my partner should have come back to the US and then to
Poland or if just a few days trip to Slovakia, Germany or whatever country in
Europe is enough to reset these 90 days...

Besides,the staff in Długa wanted to interview us to find out if our
relationship is real.We have two dual-citizenship children (4 i 3 yrs.),the
same address, the same bank account.The only one problem was that we were not
married. You may have noticed those long queues at the second floor...
Are they bored and have nothing to do in this office to waste their time for
interview? Why would American come to live in Poland, while he has much better
job opportunities, much more comfortable life in his country ?

[sobieski010]

The Americans treat people like shit at their border entry points. If you
require Poles to digest miles of red tape to even be able to enter your
country - why then expect you get a privileged treatment over here?

[asiaasia1]

I know how Americans treat people at the borders, I also experienced that
myself, before and after september 11.
I am just very tired of all those stupid regulations. They only make our lives
more difficult and complicated.

My partner was not given residency permit. We asked to cancel all this process
and he will apply again after some time.

What about his parental rights?
As a Polish citizen, I will expect problems with immigration visa to the US
(interviews, long process etc). He has problems here in Poland.
What about our kids? Do they deserve to suffer, because some dumb officers
cannot do their job or the immigration rules are not for the people ?

[sobieski010]

In the US you could have sued (they sue in the US for a too hot cup of coffee
in MacDonalds anyway) In my native Belgium they would righly laugh in your face

[asiaasia1]

Here they will not even laugh ...

[sobieski010]

Aha - privileged treatment. You might have noticed Poland is in the EU. For EU
citizens there are separate offices indeed. This is required by EU legislation.
The US is not part of the US

[asiaasia1]

Thanks God (I would say this even when I am not Catholic)Poland is in the EU.
I just wanted to point out some differences between the first and the second
floor...
You said , you were waiting not more than a five minutes.
I was waiting there with my boyfriend for the whole day, chatting with some
nice Africans.
My mom was standing in the line before the office was opened to get the ticket
early for us.

[usenetposts]

asiaasia1 napisała:

> Thanks God (I would say this even when I am not Catholic)

It's OK. Protestants have God too.

> Poland is in the EU.
> I just wanted to point out some differences between the first and the second
> floor...
> You said , you were waiting not more than a five minutes.
> I was waiting there with my boyfriend for the whole day, chatting with some
> nice Africans.

Well, while it's true that this is not the fault of the individuals, who are
the vicitims in all of this, it's true to say that you'd also be in the same
queue as those Africans if you were lining up for a visa at the US consulate.


> My mom was standing in the line before the office was opened to get the
ticket
> early for us.
>

Shocked, I tell you.

[asiaasia1]

My boyfriend's family is originally from Carribean.
Next time he will apply with his Carribean passport, if he get it somehow.
I wonder, how much of racist attitude in the immigration office in Długa we
will experience this time...

And sorry for my broken English.

[usenetposts]

If you've got a black b/f, then you might do better to up sticks and go to
Britain anyway. Black people are not stared at in the UK, as there is no more
novelty about them and in comparison with the Muslim immigrants we have, who
have such radically different ideas and wanna take control of everything, they
are practically our own brothers.

The caribbean community in the UK of course also has a too large criminal
element, with drug barons and yardies and funky music, gun crime and what not,
and this spoils the integration a bit, but I think it is the work of a
generation to sort that matter out. The Muslim issue, and the drugs issue per
se is a much harder one and black and white people are going to have to work
together to find answers to those matters.

In Poland you will find that there is a benefit in being a novelty, but this
can be a two-edged sword. One of my nannies recently saw an attack on one black
guy by skinheads on a bus. He basically had to run off the bus in a shower of
human saliva, and I don't think they were even properly introduced.

[asiaasia1]

usenetposts napisał:

> If you've got a black b/f, then you might do better to up sticks and go to
> Britain anyway. Black people are not stared at in the UK, as there is no more
> novelty about them and in comparison with the Muslim immigrants we have, who
> have such radically different ideas and wanna take control of everything,
they
> are practically our own brothers.

Thanks for advice.
My boyfriend's mom is Indian, father African.
He has Indian last name and so have our children ( so unexpectable for
the "immigration officers" in Długa that somebody "like this" may also have
american citizenship and can speak English).

I was thinking about Britain too.
I saw many job opportunities for him there.( Vax/Vms )
More than in the US.

Thank you again.

[asiaasia1]

>
> Well, while it's true that this is not the fault of the individuals, who are
> the vicitims in all of this, it's true to say that you'd also be in the same
> queue as those Africans if you were lining up for a visa at the US consulate.
>
Actually, we were planing on moving to Africa in the next two years.
I do not know, if I will even try to get to US Embassy.I do not know where is
easier to apply -Polish office in Długa or American Embassy in Piekna.

It would be great, if Polish immigration rules would allow us to live together
in Poland as a family. After we will prove , having two young kids already,
first that we are family according to the Polish law...

[nasza_maggie]

Wouldn't it be easier if you just got married??? Then you would avoid all this
malarchy.

I also think you are setting yourself up a bit with this negative attitude.
Rules are there for a reason. I understand your experience is negative and
thats why you may be so annoyed but I found that in Poland, what REALLY works
is if you just keep smiling at those urzędnicy. It really gets to them

I also share the view that Poles get really shite treatment by the US when it
comes to Visas, so Im not surprised at this procedure.

[asiaasia1]

You're right. It would be easier if we were married.
What happens if we prefer not to get married? I

[asiaasia1]

I'm sorry, I pressed enter too quickly.
Yes, so what happens when we prefer to not get married.

I understand that we live in the Catholic country, but still ( until the new
right-wing government will not change the Polish Constitution), I have a right
to have a choice ...

It is quite complicated to get married with American citizen here. Once I
checked all options and , believe me or not, it would be cheaper for us to get
married in Scotland ( Gretna Green )than in Warsaw ( translations, translators,
the court in Poland etc.)

I have a beautiful smile and always use it in all these "urzędy".
I just cannot stand when a person who looks like a fresh university graduate
(not very experienced)cannot do her job right.I am talking about misinformation
that may cost me a few thousands złotych that I could spend to pay for my kids
daycare.

As a teacher of Polish as a Second Language in one of the private schools in
Warsaw (don't worry, I will not advertise here),I heard many stories about
these "urzędnicy" from my EU students as well as from my not -EU students.
Generally, these students from not-EU countries (former Soviet Union,Vietnam,
Africa etc.)have very bitter and painful experiences.

Also, I was working as a volunteer with refugees. I do not want to even think
about their treatment that they get from local immigration "urzędnicy". Enough
to say, that one woman was asked to prove she was really raped and circumcised.
Nice and humanitarian, isn't it?

I know that border treatment in the US is terrible,however, many Polish people
come there as tourists and stay there illegaly to live and work. How many
Americans come to Poland to stay and work here illegaly? If anybody from the US
comes here and plans to stay here longer, it is not because they want
to "steal" Polish jobs from Poles (like Giertych and company preaches)or they
are dreaming about Poland as it is the paradise on the Earth.

My boyfriend came here first in 2002. The "urząd" was on Muranowska at that
time. We spoke to the older lady who couldn't speak English too well, but was
experienced and had a common sense( probably work now at the first floor on
Długa ).We were not married and I was pregnant with our first daughter.Nobody
wanted to interview us to find out ,if our relationship is realor false.
We did not have any problems with Polish settlement. My boyfriend got his
residency card after 3 weeks from the time we applied for it.

[usenetposts]

asiaasia1 napisała:

>
> Also, I was working as a volunteer with refugees. I do not want to even think
> about their treatment that they get from local immigration "urzędnicy".
Enough
> to say, that one woman was asked to prove she was really raped and
circumcised.
> Nice and humanitarian, isn't it?

That's just the Border Guard's idea of a chat-up line.

They found it got them more action than "czy mogę Panią pocałować?"

[bluteau]

>Since the US are not a part of the EU, you have to join the rest of the queue...

That's right. However, Canada also isn't a member of the EU BUT we don't have to
wait with "the rest" in the queue

[nebber]

woo-hoo! my inquiries sparked an immigration and race relations conversation!

Hmm, the sad thing is I would have had the new stamp a week ago. Now, I have a
vanishing act on my passport. Went traveling through and back through Germany
last week, and have the Poland exit stamp, the Germany entering stamp, and the
Germany leaving stamp (border town with Poland), but no Polish entry stamp. It
was via bus, and the border guards marched off with my passport, and gave it
back to the driver, who took off driving before it was handed back to me.

So I'm not here! I'm invisible! Kick me out now, suckers!

Nah. Stickin to the Cieszyn plan. Thanks again, Uncle D.

[usenetposts]

nebber napisał:

> woo-hoo! my inquiries sparked an immigration and race relations conversation!
>
> Hmm, the sad thing is I would have had the new stamp a week ago. Now, I have a
> vanishing act on my passport. Went traveling through and back through Germany
> last week, and have the Poland exit stamp, the Germany entering stamp, and the
> Germany leaving stamp (border town with Poland), but no Polish entry stamp. It
> was via bus, and the border guards marched off with my passport, and gave it
> back to the driver, who took off driving before it was handed back to me.
>
> So I'm not here! I'm invisible! Kick me out now, suckers!
>
> Nah. Stickin to the Cieszyn plan. Thanks again, Uncle D.

PL-easure!

You can actually use the negligence of those border guards as an argument if
you get asked questions. It shows that the passport record is not a complete
record, and through no fault of yours.

That is your ticket to going into the shoulder-shrugging routine the Poles know
and love.

No problem

[ianek70]

nebber napisał:

> Hi, everyone. I've got 3 weeks until the end of my free 3 months in the
> country, and just wanted to get some advice on how to stay longer. I've heard
> conflicting information.
>
> Someone told me if I cross the border, my 3 months reset.

Whenever you step across the border (to the Czech Republic for a beer for
example) and back, you get another 3 months.
But since they don't stamp your passport you don't actually have to leave the
country, because there's no way of checking.
Civil servants know this and don't care anyway, so if you have to fill in "date
of arrival in PL" on some form, just put yesterday's date.

[usenetposts]

ianek70 napisał:

> nebber napisał:
>
> > Hi, everyone. I've got 3 weeks until the end of my free 3 months in the
> > country, and just wanted to get some advice on how to stay longer. I've
> heard
> > conflicting information.
> >
> > Someone told me if I cross the border, my 3 months reset.
>
> Whenever you step across the border (to the Czech Republic for a beer for
> example) and back, you get another 3 months.
> But since they don't stamp your passport you don't actually have to leave the
> country, because there's no way of checking.
> Civil servants know this and don't care anyway, so if you have to fill
in "date
>
> of arrival in PL" on some form, just put yesterday's date.

In fact they probably WILL stamp his passport, which is as well, as otherwise
he can't prove he was away - someone could have taken his mobile and made a few
roaming calls, and got a few bills for him, for example, so only the passport
stamps really work.

EU citizens are not supposed to have their passports stamped in the EU, but
others are. Once someone taking me for an American stamped mine and rapidly got
a flea in his ear from his superior ossifer, who was looking on.

Of course, they often overlook stamping, but that's another matter.

[nebber]

Update:

Had a lovely stay in Cieszyn, crossed to the Czech for a nice dumpling lunch at
the Central Hotel, and crossed back behind a line of some very touristy
Americans. Our passports came back from a surprisingly attractive border guard
stamped and probably didn't get a second glance.

Cesky Tesin seems to be a destination for Poles to get cheap shoes, and not much
else, but the hotel restaurant is great. We also brought back a bottle of Czech
absinthe, since a year was long enough to forget how badly it hurt my brain last
time.

The castle at Kończyce Małe is very beautiful and only 20 minutes away from
Cieszyn, and I highly recommend it. 200 Złoty for the luxury room with a
jacuzzi bathtub, a sweet radio chair, and wonderful breakfast makes the
stamp-renewal trip a memorable one.

So Poland is stuck with me for another 3 months.

Thanks again, Davey! Great idea and a great trip.

[usenetposts]

nebber napisał:

> Update:
>
> Had a lovely stay in Cieszyn, crossed to the Czech for a nice dumpling lunch
at
> the Central Hotel, and crossed back behind a line of some very touristy
> Americans. Our passports came back from a surprisingly attractive border guard
> stamped and probably didn't get a second glance.

Fantastic. It worked like a charm then. Thought it would.

>
> Cesky Tesin seems to be a destination for Poles to get cheap shoes, and not
muc
> h
> else, but the hotel restaurant is great.

Did you get one of their yellow pens? I took one by accident. No, honest.

> We also brought back a bottle of Czec
> h
> absinthe, since a year was long enough to forget how badly it hurt my brain
las
> t
> time.
>
> The castle at Kończyce Małe is very beautiful and only 20 minutes away from
> Cieszyn, and I highly recommend it. 200 Złoty for the luxury room with a
> jacuzzi bathtub, a sweet radio chair, and wonderful breakfast makes the
> stamp-renewal trip a memorable one.

I will have to give that one a try next time I am in the area, which will
probably be in about four months or so.

>
> So Poland is stuck with me for another 3 months.
>
> Thanks again, Davey! Great idea and a great trip.


Glad it worked. I would have had major egg-on-face if it hadn't, but I was
pretty confident that if it would work anywhere, it would work there.

Thanks for the feedback and the castle recommendation.

few comments

[wertom2000]

hey nebber. i don't feel like reading all posts, but i believe that you were
give some bad advice. americans can stay in poland with no visa for three
months PER YEAR. in other words you always have to make sure that within last
12 months you haven't overstayed. so, you can't just come and go like that
because if somebody catches you, you might get in serious trouble (you might be
deported for example). what you should do as soon as possible is leave poland
before the 3 month deadline comes and apply for a long-term stay visa in a
polish consulate abroad. you do not qualify for the residence permit, and
that's why you should apply for the visa. it's free for the us citizens and you
should get it easily as long as you don't get overstay now.
you might be thinking to yourself that it's not worth the effort, 'cos chances
of catching you are slim. and you're right - they're slim. but every once in a
while people get cought and deported. you would also have problems if you ever
want to obtain a residence or work permit in poland - they'd count all the days
and would notice if you overstayed and reject your application for the rp or wp.

ps. i don't simply think that i know what i'm talking about - I KNOW what i'm
talking about because i specialize in immigration law (i'm not a lawyer. i've
been interested in immigration law almost all my life because i've lived in
several coutries, i've got dual citizenship, a foreign husband, and volunteer
experience in various organization that deal with immigration issues), so my
advice is actually based on reality not gossip or misunderstanding.

[asiaasia1]

hey wertom,

this is what i was writing about.
it happened to my partner.
he was not deported, however, he must have left poland for a couple of weeks.
as i mentioned, we have 2 children (dual-citizenship),the same address, the same bank account, he was offered a well-paid job ( for warsaw standards) etc.etc.
and it did not help at all...
maybe we had a really bad luck.

nebber-i hope you'll enjoy your stay.

asia

[usenetposts]

It doesn't say "per year" anywhere in the law - unless you can give me chapter
and verse on something I've missed, and it's THE IMMIGRATION OFFICER who stamps
your passport who decides. Remember, under EU law, even having a visa to the EU
doesn't guarantee that the immigration officer must allow you in, and those who
can show that they have a valid passport stamp are in the clear.

It was the same with the EU citizens prior to the time visas were taken away.
you could extend the visas or you could simply go and bed and breakfast them.